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Amnesty Bill for illegal immigrants defeated in Senate.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Thursday, November 10, 2022 18:58
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Sunday, July 1, 2007 6:32 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

A friend of mine, a socialist and a trade unionist once told me that at it's core welfare is anti revolution insurance
Well I agree with Fletch's friend wholeheartedly. But it seems that Fletch thinks that an increase in minimum wage is a form of welfare, not realizing that an increase in the minimum wage is ONE way to gain control.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.



Comment made in answer to Rue's post on people not starving due to welfare. I am no longer having a discussion with you, go play with Finn until he get's fed up with you as well. I'm through dealing with the Faux News versions of what I post.

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Monday, July 2, 2007 4:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You know Fletch I wasn't talking to you. To be clear, now I am. I understand that we have deep disagreements over definitions about words like "value", and we don't see eye to eye about how capitalism works. All of my points are sincere, as I'm sure are yours. I have a theory which I have been TRYING to clarify. If you can't understand it, that doesn't mean that I don't have a point it just means you don't understand it. Since any economy is complex, my theory has several statements. I will try, for the last time, to clarify for you what I've been saying by stating as best as I am able, point by point, what I perceive to be the problem. If you choose to be childish and name-call over this issue, that's your problem not mine.

1) A "free market" only works when the different actors in each market are at approximately the same power level. According to Adam Smith, each actor must be able to meaningfully w/draw from one negotiation and engage in another. That means that owners must be competing for labor as well as labor competing for a job. In addition, the negotiation must be w/o force.

2) what we have today is not a "free market". Because of economies of scale and the application of the military on behalf of owners (from the Pinkertons in the USA to the USA in S Korea) they have an overwhelmingly powerful position in the labor market. The trend is to force labor to work for cheaper and cheaper wages, or not to work at all. The only way to balance the negotiation is to create equal international structures that constrain the owners' power. This can be international unions, international labor accords, a series of national actions, or even revolution.

3) The reason WHY labor is constrained to the current labor market is because "independent" labor cannot compete against the productivity, economies of scale, and trade possibilities of corporatized labor. The positions left for people working outside of the corporate structure are increasingly marginalized, and their maximum returns are almost always lower than people who find jobs within the corporate structure. (except people who work illegally like drug dealers.)

4) In the end, as wages get squeezed more and more by profit, the market that the corporations sells to shrinks more and more. This is the genesis of depressions.

5) Lather, rinse, repeat. Capitalism is an unstable system. It has elements of positive feedback that induce oscillations (boom and bust). The only way to dampen the oscillations are either to reduce the positive feedback, go to war, introduce a lot of "new" money into the economy (at the bottom a la Keynes) or to shove another non-capitalist economy into the maw.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, July 2, 2007 6:51 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
2) what we have today is not a "free market". Because of economies of scale and the application of the military on behalf of owners (from the Pinkertons in the USA to the USA in S Korea) they have an overwhelmingly powerful position in the labor market. The tend is to force labor to work for cheaper and cheaper wages, or not to work at all.



Agreed. But you're leaving out one very important factor. Government doesn't just intervene directly on behalf of business. They also do it indirectly through the legal infrastructure of regulation designed to favor large, vested interests.

Quote:

The only way to balance the negotiation is to create equal international structures that constrain the owners' power. This can be international unions, international labor accords, a series of national actions, or even revolution.


It's not the only way. It's probably not even a very effective way. The corps will control those new structures just as readily as they control the existing ones. Another approach would be to remove the institutional support that makes this kind of skulduggery possible in the first place. All we really need to do is cut them loose.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, July 2, 2007 7:32 AM

FLETCH2


Sorry, did someone say something?

I will refer the honorable gentleman to my previous statement.....

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Monday, July 2, 2007 8:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Sarge, so what you're saying is change the law?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, July 2, 2007 9:07 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge, so what you're saying is change the law?



A whole bunch of 'em.

This is a bit off topic, but it's interesting...

I'd start with getting rid of the privileged status of corporations. Investment would take a hit, but I don't care. There's no sound moral reason why a corporate entity should have more rights, and less legal accountability than an individually owned company.

Most of the rest of the laws I'd change probably wouldn't go in a direction you'd like. I'd change or eliminate the large portion of regulations that function primarily as barriers to entrance. It's an all too common pattern. Established businesses give in to the (misguided) pressure for more regulation first in instances where they can see it giving them a competitive advantage. Anything that raises the cost of doing business across the board, or better yet increases start-up costs for potential competitors, is a win for established interests.

Lastly, I'd radically change our foreign policy. I'm not sure what legal changes would effect this. Perhaps its enough eliminate corporate privilege. Regardless we have to stop treating international corporations as 'national interests'. I don't give a rat's ass whether another country nationalizes corporate holdings. It's the risk they take doing business outside the US. Maybe then they'll begin to reconsider the advantages of cheap labor abroad.

One last thing, I'd also push for a constitutional amendment outlawing the common game of local or state governments granting special legal favors (tax abatements, taxpayer funded infrastructure improvements, etc...) to business in exchange for the company 'creating jobs' for their constituency.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, July 2, 2007 10:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I can work with that.

Gonna be real busy the next few days, so I hope you don't mind if I come back to this later.

Amazing. We come from different directions and wind up almost at the same place. *shakes head*

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 7:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Finn, Fletch2: Here is an example of contracting demand: Auto sales wobble in June, GM plunges www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSN0319155220070703

It traces back to higher interest rates, which caused husing prices to fall, which caused people to pull back on major spending. The whole idea of expanding credit to working folk was utlized by Keynes as one way to stimulate the economy.
Quote:

In this book Keynes put forward a theory based upon the notion of aggregate demand to explain variations in the overall level of economic activity, such as were observed in the Great Depression. The total income in a society is defined by the sum of consumption and investment; and in a state of unemployment and unused production capacity, one can only enhance employment and total income by first increasing expenditures for either consumption or investment. ... The book advocated activist economic policy by government to stimulate demand in times of high unemployment, for example by spending on public works. The book is often viewed as the foundation of modern macroeconomics


---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, April 18, 2021 8:22 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Exclusive Videos: 300 Migrants Cross Border into Texas

https://www.breitbart.com/border/2021/04/17/exclusive-videos-300-migra
nts-including-2-salvadoran-unaccompanied-teens-cross-border-as-detention-numbers-rise
/

Kristi Noem vows not to accept illegal immigrants amid border crisis: 'Call me when you're an American'

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/kristi-noem-immigration-biden-
south-dakota-border-crisis


Biden's immigration backtrack leaves cloud of confusion over the White House

https://news.yahoo.com/immigration-confusion-coming-inside-white-12560
0010.html

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Sunday, April 18, 2021 10:03 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


"Call me when you're an American". I love it.



I'd take it a step further and say "Call me when you're an American and you can dial 1 for English".

--------------------------------------------------

Imagine the hypocrisy of a government who will allow businesses to card people to get a job or buy groceries, but won't card people to vote in elections and gives millions of non-citizens free money from taxpayers.

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Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:58 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Red Wave maybe has not arrived but who takes the Senate?

Federal indictment returned against illegal immigrant who allegedly attacked Paul Pelosi with hammer
https://justthenews.com/nation/crime/federal-indictment-returned-again
st-illegal-immigrant-who-allegedly-attacked-paul



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