Artifacts versus Historical Documents by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Artifacts versus Historical Documents

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 07:12
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Monday, January 7, 2008 4:50 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
AnthonyT

I disagree. "What people say about themselves" isn't history. Just like "what we say about ourselves" isn't fact.

If you were to read at some point in the future what the US says about itself - and would bother to engrave in some large stone format - what would it say ? - best economic system ever ! never a problem that won't work out right in the end ! most enlightened ! Do YOU believe that ? Should some future archeologist believe that ?

Writings are anything but fact, and therefore anything but history. Once you get past the dictionary (and translation is the trickiest step) they need a LOT of interpretation. Other symbols (that are beyond use-defined) are the same way. How do you interpret the cave paintings ? The Ayers Rock glyphs ? Necklaces with skeletons ? These too, just like writing, are abstract 'symbols' that need interpretation.

Simple useful artifacts are actually the easiest to interpret.

Hello,

I found the topic of History worthy of its own thread for seperate discussion.

I disagree with Rue. She has implied that simple artifacts are more accurately informative about a culture than the documents they create with written words where they talk about themselves and their contemporaries.

Let us take two objects and compare them.

Object 1) A weather-worn debit card. This is a remarkable archaeological find. It shows that the culture has the ability to create polymers and adhesives and had some use for magnetic dust. It will contain some words printed and impressed on it, which an astute person will recognize as having been made by a machine, not the hand of an individual. Perhaps most startling is the holographic picture, which could only have been created by sophisticated technologies, proving that the culture mastered the use of the laser. Without other documents to compare the words on the card to, they are meaningless beyond demonstrating that the people who made this card used a written language, and perhaps it differs from the written language of other similar card artifacts found in other regions.

Object 2) A pamphlet from Washington Mutual advertising their debit cards. From this pamphlet, we have a picture of a debit card. But we also have a description of the debit card. Those studying object 2 and similar objects have a fair chance to decipher language. A physical examination of the document itself reveals the same insights about modern technology and printing. But a translation of the text is most illuminating. We now know that this card allows someone to access their bank account, where money is stored. They can use the card at a variety of places to purchase goods and services. We know that the holographic picture on the card is not merely decorative, but a security device. We know that you can call customer service 'toll free' from a 'telephone' and we know that you can use a device called a 'computer' to access something called a 'web site' to check your account information 'online' or make requests of the bank. We know that there must be some kind of fraud associated with these devices, because the bank asserts that they will refund you any unauthorized transactions.

With written texts and language, we begin to learn a great deal about the society and how they operate. We might eventually struggle to make these same discoveries from artifacts without text, but it's much easier and surer to have it spelled out for us.

This is why I feel what a culture writes about itself and others is a much surer avenue towards understanding them than the analysis of 'dry' artifacts. Artifacts alone give insight, but texts give both insight and context.

Keep in mind that even propaganda texts like 'U.S. Capitalism is the best system on Earth' can be wonderfully insightful. Not because of the propaganda itself, (though that certainly communicates the 'official line') but also because you are about to learn what Capitalism is, how the US monetary system operates, and you're likely to learn how other major economies operate as the text compares and contrasts its 'superior system' to that of other nations.

It's even better when you get texts from other nations, "Soviet Communism is best" and "Socialism is best" etc. Now you can see the 'official line' of various places, see how their arguments compare and contrast, and get a unified picture of things from the disparate pieces of propaganda on the same topic.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, January 7, 2008 6:16 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I disagree with Rue. She has implied that simple artifacts are more accurately informative about a culture than the documents they create with written words where they talk about themselves and their contemporaries.

Rue seems to assume that everyone (Americans and capitalists, anyway) lies, or at least spins the truth. He further assumes that no one in the future would be able to figure that history doesn't come from one source, but many. Future historians, if they're anything like current ones, will compare different records, the artifacts that correspond to them, and facts from other sources and develop an accurate assessment of what really happened.

For example, a Soviet-era document touting the benefits of Lysenkoism would be compared to other documents of the era relating to Mendelian genetics, and also with current information about agronomy, plus known history of the Soviet Union and its propaganda methods, and identified as invalid, but in line with Soviet thought of the era.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, January 7, 2008 8:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Rue seems to assume that everyone (Americans and capitalists, anyway) lies, or at least spins the truth.

Everyone spins the truth, from the simple fact that it is impossible to see your own context accurately.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, January 7, 2008 8:08 PM

FLETCH2

Ironically the most useful documents are often the most mundane and mundane documents in general don't contain the level of spin that people suggest.

If you look at Egypt for example there are big monuments that say that pharaoh such-and-such is a uber-warrior-desired-of women-emperor-of the world and there are records that talk about the lives of craftsmen, the state of the harvests, mundane communications.

Spin is not a new concept, the powerful have been manipulating their image and they way their legacy is presented for as long as there has been powerful people. In fact one of the most terrible things that Egyptians did was erase those that had fallen out of favour from history by removing their names from inscriptions and removing their monuments. These techniques wouldn't have been out of place in soviet era Russia or the Third Reich nothing is ever new.

And yet archeology deals with these issues quite well because there is always more than one narrative and even if someone omits or falsifies their history there are often second sources. It is better to have a spun record than no record.

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Monday, January 7, 2008 9:28 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Take for instance the study of Roman Britain. Archeology has identified sites that point to Roman occupation and military conquest. We have coins and gravestones, but there’s only so much that can be taken from this. We know Roman legions were in Britain, but it is Caesar and Tacitus who told us why. Now Caesar and Tacitus can’t always be taken literally, but then neither can the New York Times. This is the history of Roman Britain. These are the stories of people who were there. It’s not all just about coins and pottery, in fact the reason why we study the coins and pottery is learn more about the people and their stories. So the scripts and the text is crucial, because it provides us a direct link to the thoughts of those who were there.

One of the most celebrated Roman archeological finds in all of Britain is not the pottery or the coins, but the Vindolanda tablets, essentially a bag of undelivered mail from a Roman fort in Northern Britain. It provides us that rare glimpse into the lives of everyday Romans. This is what history is about. The lives of people.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 4:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Everyone spins the truth, from the simple fact that it is impossible to see your own context accurately.

Depends on the document. A warehouse inventory, a bank statement, or an instruction manual for a drill press will be pretty much spin-free.

Just looking at the books here near the upstairs computer, I got a Bartender's Guide, several recipe books, a couple of books on faux wall finishes, Birds of North America, and a road atlas or two. Useful for future historians, and hardly spinnable.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 4:15 AM

HERO

I think future historians will find and read this whole discussion and come to the absolute conclusion that we all have way too much time on our hands.

H

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 4:39 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I think future historians will find and read this whole discussion and come to the absolute conclusion that we all have way too much time on our hands.

Leading future historians to conclude we lived in relative prosperity as one of the indicators is amount of leisure time.

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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 7:12 AM

FLETCH2

Artifacts are also subject to interpretation. I know this is kinda corny but there was a scene in the old Buck Rogers TV show where Buck meets a historian who has interpreted all the 20th century artifacts out of context. We think this object is for this purpose but if it's unique enough or incomplete we might not be able to make sense of it.

Take object 1. Most holograms used on CC's are similar. If you don't know what the symbols are you might interpete it to be religious in nature. That 21st century folk all worshiped either the great god Visa or her rival "Mastercard" and that believers carry with them a small symbol of devotion all the time.

.... and future Sig would use it as proof that all Americans had universal health care....

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