REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

MLK assassinated 40 years ago today

POSTED BY: SKYWALKEN
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 17:01
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Friday, April 4, 2008 1:41 AM

SKYWALKEN


In this time when the Democratic Party is engaged in race related drama let us take the time to reflect that on April 4, 1968 the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered.

Although he is now with the Heavenly Father, we continue to strive for his dream.

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Friday, April 4, 2008 3:15 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Skywalken:
In this time when the Democratic Party is engaged in race related drama let us take the time to reflect that on April 4, 1968 the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered.

Although he is now with the Heavenly Father, we continue to strive for his dream.


In this time when there I'm just sitting here doing nothing for five minutes let us take the time to reflect that on April 4, 1968 the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered.

We continue to strive for the day when blacks will stop seeing whites as the enemy and for that glorious future when they will stop seeing themselves as "black" and embrace their equality with the other races. We dream of that day when their community rejects the racist and hateful rhetoric so common in their community be in their churches, in their music, or in their own homes. We dream of that day when they vote Republican...just to prove they can (and thus earning themselves a real place in both parties). We dream of that day when we can all laugh together, shop together, worship together, watch the Browns win the Superbowl, and vote for President Condi. Oh...and something about little white kids and black kids playing together.

H


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Friday, April 4, 2008 3:45 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
We continue to strive for the day when blacks will stop seeing whites as the enemy and for that glorious future when they will stop seeing themselves as "black" and embrace their equality with the other races.


Are you kidding? There's way too much money at stake to EVER acknowledge the intent and message of Dr. King. His progeny has turned race-card baiting, blackmail, and downright hatred into a billion dollar business for the likes of Jackson, Sharpton, Wright, Farrakhan, rap stars, and many others. There's no money in racial harmony.

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Friday, April 4, 2008 4:09 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
We continue to strive for the day when blacks will stop seeing whites as the enemy and for that glorious future when they will stop seeing themselves as "black" and embrace their equality with the other races. We dream of that day when their community rejects the racist and hateful rhetoric so common in their community be in their churches, in their music, or in their own homes. We dream of that day when they vote Republican...just to prove they can (and thus earning themselves a real place in both parties). We dream of that day when we can all laugh together, shop together, worship together, watch the Browns win the Superbowl, and vote for President Condi. Oh...and something about little white kids and black kids playing together.



I usually avoid the RWE, especially discussions like this one. I'm not big on confrontation. But as one of the few black people on this forum (as far as I know), I feel compelled to speak up. Not for my race as a whole, but mostly for myself.

I don't count myself as one of the "blacks" that has committed the aforementioned crimes, so kindly don't lump me in with your distorted bullshit. I don't vote Republican because I don't agree with their outlook on government. I don't see whites as the enemy, I see people in power making idiotic decisions as the enemy (and some of those happen to be black; Condi, I'm looking at you). And If I slam a person at all, it'll be because of something stupid they've done, not some blanket racist rhetoric.

The fact that you seem to lump all black people in that category doesn't exactly reflect well on your character. And that doesn't make you a racist sweetie, just an ignorant asshole.

**************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Friday, April 4, 2008 4:38 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:

The fact that you seem to lump all black people in that category doesn't exactly reflect well on your character. And that doesn't make you a racist sweetie, just an ignorant asshole.


You need to lighten up. Hero's just using a little humor in his acknowledgement of the good of Dr. King. Calling him what you did is an indication of your less-than-stellar character, not his. If you wanna attack someone here, then attack me. I had the gall to say that today's media-appointed Black leaders have none of the virtues of Dr. King.

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Friday, April 4, 2008 4:47 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Well gee, Jongsstraw, when someone insinuates that most black people behave in a certain (very negative) manner, without any regards for the individual, I get a little peeved. That anyone would consider that humor is a bit of a mystery to me. It doesn't exactly do much to encourage positive race relations.

ETA: I will apologize for the ignorant asshole comment. But in the future, maybe everyone here could attempt to remember that the people we talk about aren't just groups or categories. As an individual, those comments are offensive because they seek to define me as something I'm not. If you really want to acknowledge the good deeds that Dr. King did, there are better ways to do it.

****************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Friday, April 4, 2008 4:58 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Well gee, Jongsstraw, when someone insinuates that most black people behave in a certain (very negative) manner, without any regards for the individual, I get a little peeved. That anyone would consider that humor is a bit of a mystery to me. It doesn't exactly do much to encourage positive race relations.]


I agree with you if that was the case here. I don't see the "negative manner" you refer to, but you're absolutely correct if you feel that any stereotyping was intended. I regret now posting what I did too, but I'm not going to erase it 'cause that would be hypocritical. I too judge people not by race, but by deeds, and I do deplore stereotyping.

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Friday, April 4, 2008 5:17 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
The fact that you seem to lump all black people in that category doesn't exactly reflect well on your character. And that doesn't make you a racist sweetie, just an ignorant asshole.


Sorry, I was taking Senator Obama at his word when he defended his Pastor's racist rhetoric as being part of the black community.

As for voting Republican...its not about supporting their platform, its about forcing both parties to compete for your vote. Why should Democrats ever work in your interests if they are guarranteed 90% of your vote regardless of what they do? Likewise, why should Republicans work to address African-American issues when they know that no matter what they try to do they will lose 90% of the vote. This is perhaps the biggest failing of the African-American movement...they never progressed from class-based voting, unlike every other minority group. The social progression is from no rights, to suppressed rights, then organization by class (or nationality, occupation, and perhaps geographical location), followed by assimilation by social and economic distinction.

As for lumping people all together, its only natural. By their own choosing I am forced to talk about the black community. If you don't think you fit that community that's between you and them, not you and me.

All I said was that I hoped we could move beyond race at some point and I was critical of the black community and then because you think I'm white you call me an ignorant asshole. Well a white man has as much right to be critical of the black community as a black person. They may not want to hear it...but nobody ever wants to hear it...no matter the color of the commentator, thats why folk like Bill Cosby are occaisonally hammered for encouraging change in their own community rather then lumping all their scorn for percieved white injustice or crazy conspiracy theories.

Nobody in the racial discussion, black or white, is without some measure of blame...in many respects we are all ingnorant assholes. Some by nature, some by choice, and some by mistake. Which are you?

H

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Friday, April 4, 2008 5:34 AM

PIRATECAT


Martin Luther King is a shining example of what is good in America. He stood up to the statis quo. A man of principles. A friend of the working man who was trying to help in a labor dispute. We know not why evil is it just is. He helped his people be a part of the American Dream. Today's issues are not relevant to his time. You don't buck the system not knowing you won't be a target. I think his time here as short as it was he did good. pc

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Friday, April 4, 2008 5:36 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Sorry, I was taking Senator Obama at his word when he defended his Pastor's racist rhetoric as being part of the black community.

As for voting Republican...its not about supporting their platform, its about forcing both parties to compete for your vote. Why should Democrats ever work in your interests if they are guarranteed 90% of your vote regardless of what they do? Likewise, why should Republicans work to address African-American issues when they know that no matter what they try to do they will lose 90% of the vote. This is perhaps the biggest failing of the African-American movement...they never progressed from class-based voting, unlike every other minority group. The social progression is from no rights, to suppressed rights, then organization by class (or nationality, occupation, and perhaps geographical location), followed by assimilation by social and economic distinction.

As for lumping people all together, its only natural. By their own choosing I am forced to talk about the black community. If you don't think you fit that community that's between you and them, not you and me.

All I said was that I hoped we could move beyond race at some point and I was critical of the black community and then because you think I'm white you call me an ignorant asshole. Well a white man has as much right to be critical of the black community as a black person. They may not want to hear it...but nobody ever wants to hear it...no matter the color of the commentator, thats why folk like Bill Cosby are occaisonally hammered for encouraging change in their own community rather then lumping all their scorn for percieved white injustice or crazy conspiracy theories.

Nobody in the racial discussion, black or white, is without some measure of blame...in many respects we are all ingnorant assholes. Some by nature, some by choice, and some by mistake. Which are you?



I'll agree with you that no one in the discussion is without blame. I'll even agree that to a certain extent, we're all ignorant assholes.

But what I don't agree with is the fact that you seem to be assuming if a certain group of characteristics are true about one group of black people, it must apply to every black person. I never asked Obama or his pastor to speak for me. Their opinions of the black community don't necessarily reflect my own. If you really want your message to have an effect on a certain group, you might try looking at them as people with their own ideas and opinions, not mindless drones who follow the word of media personalities.

And as far as having the right to criticize (and calling you an ignorant asshole in the first place), your statement was offensive no matter what race you are. You could be blue with purple spots, and it still would have pissed me off.

And as for voting, I'm personally of the opinion that this country's fucked no matter which party you side with. The Republican and Democratic parties both have messed up ideals that are going to do (and have done) a hell of lot more harm to this country than good. When it comes to my vote, it's just a matter of who's going to do less of the screwing. If the day comes that Republicans have a platform I can agree with, I'll be more than inclined to change my voting habits, and that's regardless of my race or class.

**************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Friday, April 4, 2008 5:57 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
But what I don't agree with is the fact that you seem to be assuming if a certain group of characteristics are true about one group of black people, it must apply to every black person.


Barrack Obama expressed himself on behalf of the entire black community and certainly represents a vast majority of them. Given that circumstance I have every right to respond to him and them in that same context.

Again, if you feel you were unfairly lumped in with them then your argument is with them, not me. It is your repsonsibility to make the distinctions in this case, not mine.

There are exceptions to every rule, that does not make discussion of the rule invalid, nor does it require a person to qualify each exception in the midst of the discussion.

At some point you must take responsibility for your place in your community, even if your place turns out to be at odds with most of the others.

H

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Friday, April 4, 2008 6:14 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Barrack Obama expressed himself on behalf of the entire black community and certainly represents a vast majority of them. Given that circumstance I have every right to respond to him and them in that same context.

Again, if you feel you were unfairly lumped in with them then your argument is with them, not me. It is your repsonsibility to make the distinctions in this case, not mine.

There are exceptions to every rule, that does not make discussion of the rule invalid, nor does it require a person to qualify each exception in the midst of the discussion.

At some point you must take responsibility for your place in your community, even if your place turns out to be at odds with most of the others.



Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but you seem to be stating that because you have a certain viewpoint that represents a certain amount of a very large group of people, that it applies to everyone because it's not up to you to make individual distinctions. I'm not saying you have to consider every single person that this particular discussion effects, merely to acknowledge that your opinion is not representative of every black person.

Your (as well as Obama's and his preacher's) opinion about a black community is subjective. What one black person considers to be their definition of "the black community" may well be very different than that of another person's. How is it logical to think of every single person in a particular group as having the same exact opinion? That's condemning all of those people for crimes they may not have committed.

**************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Friday, April 4, 2008 6:18 AM

FINEHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
But what I don't agree with is the fact that you seem to be assuming if a certain group of characteristics are true about one group of black people, it must apply to every black person.


Barrack Obama expressed himself on behalf of the entire black community and certainly represents a vast majority of them. Given that circumstance I have every right to respond to him and them in that same context.

Again, if you feel you were unfairly lumped in with them then your argument is with them, not me. It is your repsonsibility to make the distinctions in this case, not mine.

There are exceptions to every rule, that does not make discussion of the rule invalid, nor does it require a person to qualify each exception in the midst of the discussion.

At some point you must take responsibility for your place in your community, even if your place turns out to be at odds with most of the others.
H



You know, Hero, the problem I have is that you keep referring to "us and them". George Bush doesn't speak for me just because I'm white. So, why would Obama speak for Deepgirl just because she's black?

Another thing that isn't helping matters is your total lack of personal responsibility. Take responsibility for your own opinions, don't blame them on what you heard from some guy on the TV.

***************************

I know your name, jackass.

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Friday, April 4, 2008 6:32 AM

JRC


I still say that there really is only one person responsible for King's murder. Bush!! I don't care if he was only 20-or-so years old.

Everyone dies alone.

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Friday, April 4, 2008 7:11 AM

STORYMARK


Christ, it only took Hero one post to turn this into a race debate. Bravo, ass.

Every time I start to think that, differences aside, you seem like a decent cat, you prove to be a total cock.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, April 4, 2008 7:43 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Your (as well as Obama's and his preacher's) opinion about a black community is subjective.


First of all its opinion and by nature subjective, it is also legitimate commentary.

You seem to have no real disagreement with the substance of my ideas, but rather the sum of them in the sense that you don't think that they apply to you or the entire black community. I disagree.

I don't know you, I do know as much of the black community as I can both through personal experiance and the way they portray themselves through their chosen leaders. In that sense you must and have made your voice heard. Thank you, exception noted, however I STILL think my opinion applies to you even if you choose to reject it (as is your right).

I understand how you feel, I'm a lawyer. Now admit it, when you read "I'm a lawyer" you have a negative reaction. Most people do and lawyer jokes are funny. There are a lot of bad lawyers and the legal community deserves the critisism it gets. But I know some really good lawyers, the kind of folks who live up to the noble tradition that our field has despite our bad reputation. I consider myself a part of that smaller group, mainly because justice is my first and last concern for every case (except involving PirateNews...but thats special). I know what critisism belongs to me and what does not, but I recognize that the community deserves the rightful critisism even if I do not. For that I blame the community and my role to advocate the change we need.

So yes, I am lumping you in with them, not intentionally, but because I am talking about them in general and in general you are as much a part of them as anyone.

H

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Friday, April 4, 2008 7:49 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by FineHat:
You know, Hero, the problem I have is that you keep referring to "us and them". George Bush doesn't speak for me just because I'm white. So, why would Obama speak for Deepgirl just because she's black?


Your Bush example is false because Bush does not claim to speak for all white people. Obama spoke on behalf the black community which semantically at least may not apply to all black people.

Bush does claim, correctly, to speak on behalf of all Americans. He can do this because of his position and despite the fact that many, even perhaps a majority, claim to disagree with him.

I would suggest that Obama does speak for her, unless she says he does not. Its her duty to divorce herself from the community he claims to speak for. I don't think she can, but she can try, either way though its an issue between her and them, not her and myself.

H

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Friday, April 4, 2008 7:51 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Christ, it only took Hero one post to turn this into a race debate. Bravo, ass.


I would suggest that the debate was already here, even before I commented. Besides I didn't challenge anyone, just expressed my hopes for the black community, it was others who decided to take issue with the nature of the black community, which is not something I defined or a term I invented.

H

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Friday, April 4, 2008 8:57 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
I don't know you, I do know as much of the black community as I can both through personal experience and the way they portray themselves through their chosen leaders. In that sense you must and have made your voice heard. Thank you, exception noted, however I STILL think my opinion applies to you even if you choose to reject it (as is your right).

I understand how you feel, I'm a lawyer. Now admit it, when you read "I'm a lawyer" you have a negative reaction. Most people do and lawyer jokes are funny. There are a lot of bad lawyers and the legal community deserves the criticism it gets. But I know some really good lawyers, the kind of folks who live up to the noble tradition that our field has despite our bad reputation. I consider myself a part of that smaller group, mainly because justice is my first and last concern for every case (except involving PirateNews...but thats special). I know what criticism belongs to me and what does not, but I recognize that the community deserves the rightful criticism even if I do not. For that I blame the community and my role to advocate the change we need.

So yes, I am lumping you in with them, not intentionally, but because I am talking about them in general and in general you are as much a part of them as anyone.



You're still talking as if this idea of the black community is a fact. Your perception of the black community is just that, your perception (and for that matter, Obama's as well). Because you seem content to buy into this fictional idea, I get to be lumped in with people that have some faulty (if not downright stupid) logic about race.

If every black person alive deserves the same amount of criticism because of the actions and words of a few, then you had better start applying that same yardstick to every other group on the planet (which you may very well do to begin with). And that would be sad, because that kind of thinking does a hell of a lot to hurt race relations.

If you really want a good outcome for black people (and for that matter, every person) as you claim, the first step might include becoming willing to see more than just a distorted perception of them.

And with that, I'll be taking a break for a little while. My arguing faculties are getting more than a little worn out.

**************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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Friday, April 4, 2008 9:06 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


Probably the most damning thing about any of the comments to this thread about whether or not we are still a racist nation that treats blacks unjustly, is the inability of most of you to acknowledge any type of widespread racism still inflicting the black community. You prove your racially charged biases with your inability to see what's right in front of your face, and your inability to take King's message as something that we should strive for as a people, not just black or white, and that our whole country has fallen down on that message in a big way, is dissapointing.



Its a fucking tragedy how the white people on here want to tell blacks how they should be, how they are failing. As a white person who lives in the California Bay Area no less, few days go by where I don't hear something biggoted coming out of a white person's mouth about black people, and I expect with great certainty that any white person who claims racism is not a problem that we are a great part of is not being genuine, or else his thought is so bent that the racism around him sounds more like white noise.

Jong, seriously? That's your contribution to the thread? Because its the black leaders who have the only stake here? You don't notice a general movement on the other side? You don't think the "accidental" but constant slip of pundits calling Obama "Osama", or the egregious emphasis on his middle name is evidence that there is an interest by the powers that be to foster xenophobia in this country? you don't think that trying to conflate things that reverend Wright said with not only his own racism but with Obamas is an appeal to the race card? You don't think its being used because finally people who have been nervous about voting in a black person can say...."hallelujah, he's a racist, and I ain't voting for no white hater."

It's just fucking hilarious and sad to me that they have been able to get such miliage out of the Reverend Wright thing. Nothing he said was racist...it just wasn't. Some of it was fringe, some of it, like "whites being in power" was factual, but it doesn't matter to people that he has defended gays in his sermons, and it doesn't matter that he has defended white women and talked about their plight...what people hear and parrot is that he is a racist, because in the end, that's what they want to hear.

You want racism? Lets look at Pat Buchanon's essay "A Brief for Whitey" on Obama's speech.

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/PatrickJBuchanan/2008/03/21/a_brief
_for_whitey?page=full&comments=true



And just so this doesn't get overlooked as white noise, I'll pull it out for you here.

"First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known. "

Now read the frikken comments to his thread and tell me there isn't an existing problem in America when whites can't see white racism, even when it is typed out in black and white.

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Friday, April 4, 2008 9:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


As the spokesperson for whites everywhere, I think we should all feel guilty about slavery.



---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, April 4, 2008 9:46 AM

LIGHTBRINGER


I'm realy sorry I missed so much of this! DeepGirl, I'm really glad you came out of your non-confrontational shell to join us, I hope you'll stick around. You seem pretty good at it (I'm a debutant nouveau myself, just bursting onto the scene like the Kool-Aid guy).
So it seems like the real issue of contention here is how people are defined and define themselves. And there's the rub, as 'twere, for the whole objective is to not be defined by race and creed and so on. The only problem with that is it sounds awfully homogeneous (somebody make a gay Einstein joke out of that, would you?); I mean, if you're "community" can't be identified just by looking at you, it probably means you look and act just like everyone else, all those other "unique" people. But maybe the trick is to muddle up the indictators, so everyone has their flair but there's no way of using it to define a group, except possibly as the "mismatched community." So that's the question, I guess, for me: How do you assimilate and acculturate a "raceless" society without becoming bland and boring, like newscasters?
I beg forgiveness, but I was working on a similar theme on my totally unrelated blog, and it seems a propos so I'm going to paste it in here:

There’s been a bit of an uproar about Barack Obama’s statements about his grandmother. I would like, for perspective, to point out that my grandmother was wont to casually and impartially refer to blacks as "niggras," as in "There’s a nice niggra family moved in down the street." In contrast to Obama’s grandmother, however, I think it safe to say that mine was never afraid of black men she met on the street; they stood to attention and called her "Ma’am" just like everyone else.

Race is obviously not a taboo subject to me, as it is to many of my generation (whatever that is). In fact, I think it’s a topic that should be picked at and poked at and turned upside down and shaken to try and figure out what’s inside. I’ve tried to institute a policy of racial insensitivity, which of course gets me called a racist periodically. Following my grandmother’s example (not so much the "niggra" part), I don’t judge anyone by the color of their skin but by the content of their character (now where have I heard that before?). It’s just that so many people suck in the character department; that’s hardly my fault. If somebody acts like a creep or a scumbag, the fact that they’re black doesn’t change or excuse that, unless you subscribe to the belief that blacks or other minority races are somehow deficient mentally or spiritually; and you know, I swear sometimes that’s what people seem to be saying.

An example of this that always sticks with me was during the aftermath of the 2000 election, when Jesse Jackson publicly claimed, as best I could tell, that the "faulty" ballots were too complicated for black voters to understand (I’m not sure what excuse the affluent Jews who voted for Pat Buchanan had). I stood flabbergasted (which is a sight, I’ll tell you); I thought "This is the advocate for the black community?" If blacks needed an insulting paternalism, they had plenty of that going around pre-1865.

The tendency to be patronizing in race issues is bad enough, but worse is the apparent drive to claim as items of cultural or class identity the very afflictions and dysfunctions that any sensible person would want to escape. It’s like the irritating habit of country songs to glorify being a semi-literate wage-slave with little or no dress sense. Maybe your ancestors had no choice but to live that way and like it, but you don’t have to, much less make a cult out of it, one that I’m sure would astound and horrify General Lee or President Davis if they could see it. In the same way, the tragic and senseless tendency of black culture to embrace and iconize criminality, parental neglect, and undereducated moronic victimhood leads directly to the paranoia that believes the government forces drugs on black neighborhoods, and the heartbreaking resignation that greets Jesse Jackson’s condescension with "Yassuh, we’s just dumb old niggras heah!"

So that’s my moral lesson for today; you may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but the moment you let someone else tell you that you’re too stupid or too victimized to make a difference in the world around you, you’ve given your soul away. Now, maybe you can’t make a difference, but that’s not the point! At least if you fail, you’ll fail for real reasons, not the ones someone else gave you to keep you from trying.


That ought to get things going.

This may be all a dream, but at least mine was consistently erotic. -LB

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Friday, April 4, 2008 5:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Wow.. discussions like this make me ever so glad I made the decision way back in my early teens to just NOT CARE what arbitrarily determined (cause, you know, it is!) "race" anyone technically belonged to.

It sure opened all manner of routes for cultural exploration once you dismiss the artificial divisions and start lookin at people as people.

Someone wants to dislike me, I can give em all manner of better reasons than my skin tone and technical ancestry, cause when it comes right down TO it, this is as stupid as disliking and judging people cause of what color their eyes are.

And for the record, it's even STUPIDER online, when you have no effective knowledge of these things unless someone directly tells you.

I just don't see the point of it, never have.

-F

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Friday, April 4, 2008 5:49 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


'Hero'

The more I read of your posts the fuller, and fuller, and fuller of sh*t you show yourself to be. Obama was talking about SOME black people, SOME of the time. Only you, and racist assholes like you, could say it means blacks in general, and then try and deny you said it. Be a MAN for god's sake and own up to your racism and the careless stupidity by which you exposed it.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, April 5, 2008 9:15 AM

KIRKULES


I think we all agree that people should be judged on "the content of their character" as individuals. The problem is that societal trends can only be studied by separating people into groups based on common characteristics. If we have a group of people that is made up of individuals all diverse in many ways, how do we find the source of a societal problem. You begin by separating the one large group into smaller groups based on a common characteristic. Lets say that we have two groups that when looked at together are as diverse as the human race itself, but Group A has only one unique characteristic that makes them different from Group B. This difference is of no significance in and of itself, but when we compare statistics on the groups we find dramatic differences in some societal trends.

.........................Group A..........Group B
Incarceration Rate......_2,531/10k________393/10k

Out of Wedlock Childbirth...._69.9%_______23.3%

High School Dropout Rate........_11%_________6%


The first thing we do is look for other common factors among the two groups and select smaller samples that account for these differences such as income, marriage rates, education etc. When we compare "apples with apples" we find that Group A still has statistically significant differences from Group B. At this point it is reasonable to assume that the one unique characteristic of Group A has some correlation with the trends in that group. Assuming we are looking at these groups with the intent of solving social problems, and assuming we see alarming negative treads in the statistics for group A, it is reasonable for those in Group A and Group B to be concerned about the negative impact on society as a whole. The idea that Group A would reject the concerns of Group B is counterproductive to solving the issues that almost all in both groups see as harmful trends for society. No one likes to be lumped into a group based on statistics, but that's what is necessary to make informed decisions on the measures needed to correct deficiencies in our society.

It turns out 85% of serial killers are white males. I happen to be a white male. Why would I take offense from this mere statement of the facts. It would be different if someone said that because I am a white male I must therefor be a serial killer. The problem is, if all white males took offense to this statistic, and objected every time someone tried to discuss what can be done to stop serial killers, it would benefit no one but the serial killers.



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Saturday, April 5, 2008 9:54 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


There's a difference between saying "85% of serial kilers are white males" and "white males are serial killers". 'Hero' quite accidentally said what he meant, which is 'blacks are ...'

***************************************************************
And, uhm ...... what's your excuse for defending that ?

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Saturday, April 5, 2008 3:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Define "white"...

Hell, define "black" - I mean, someone who is very dark could be descended from Zulu, Samburu, Bambara, Ibos, Dogon, Fulani, or any combination of cultural and ethnic lines, some even crossing into mediterranian turf, could be some egyptian or yemeni in there....

For all you know they might be of indian ancestry, so you know, it's wholly abitrary and thus ridiculous to try to shoehorn folk into brackets by skin color alone since there are so MANY cultures and ethnicities that they could have come from.

And us lighter folk are even worse, to pin it down to one specific ethnic and cultural line as a primary, so tricky in fact it just ain't worth caring about unless yer into Eugenics or something.

For all you know, you could be a Berber or Kayble and directly related to someone who looks completely different than you!

It's really a seriously idiotic criteria to judge people by, in any way, shape or form.

What we are, is AMERICANS, by virtue of the language, citizenship, and culture we have elected to stick with, perhaps grudgingly since we were born here, or even quite satisfied, it is an identity which we accept and acknowledge, often with a pride based on geographical location and State/City identification as well.

Once you really understand, really GET that concept, the idea of race, especially determined by color alone, just becomes downright ludicrous if not offensive.

I just don't understand why folk cling to a whole concept that makes no actual SENSE.

-F

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Saturday, April 5, 2008 3:45 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
There's a difference between saying "85% of serial kilers are white males" and "white males are serial killers". 'Hero' quite accidentally said what he meant, which is 'blacks are ...'

***************************************************************
And, uhm ...... what's your excuse for defending that ?



You're the one running around RWED calling anyone who doesn't jump through your politically correct hoops a racist. Calling someone a racist because they didn't use the exact language you find appropriate is idiotic, but coming from you that's not surprising. It says a lot more about you than it does Hero or me. People like you are so eager to stir up racial divisions where they don't exist, it seems to me like you're the racist here.

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Saturday, April 5, 2008 4:54 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"it seems to me like you're the racist here"

Just a bit touchy on the subject, are we ? And, oh yeah, did I say anything about anyone's 'race' ? Kinda hard to stir up racial divisions when you're not saying anything about race, don't you think ? Now 'Hero' OTOH had lots to say about blacks, and you defended what he said. So the people stirring up racial divisions would be ---- you.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, April 5, 2008 6:41 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


This post was initiated to honor a great American. As an American I am thoroughly embarassed that it was so quickly turned into race baiting.


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Saturday, April 5, 2008 6:44 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I think it went wrong about here:
Quote:



We continue to strive for the day when blacks will stop seeing whites as the enemy and for that glorious future when they will stop seeing themselves as "black" and embrace their equality with the other races. We dream of that day when their community rejects the racist and hateful rhetoric so common in their community be in their churches, in their music, or in their own homes. We dream of that day when they vote Republican...just to prove they can (and thus earning themselves a real place in both parties). ...
H




***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, April 5, 2008 7:49 PM

LIGHTBRINGER


I'm too tired to get into this right now. Suffice to say, I'm sorry Veteran, I see your point. My advice: Just act like a decent human being. I don't give a damn whether you're Suomi or Tamil or Melanesian.

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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Saturday, April 5, 2008 7:49 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I think it went wrong about here


If it went wrong...it went wrong here:
Quote:


Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety - the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger. Like other black churches, Trinity's services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.


Edited for content: I agreed with it and then joined with him and many other leaders, black and white, who have critisised the black community, as defined and labled by them.

I am not the first, nor am I the most critical. I honored Dr. King's sentiment and expressed my hope for Senator Obama's black community, which I suspect Dr. King would claim as his own if he were here.

H

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Saturday, April 5, 2008 7:54 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"who have labled critisism of the black community, as defined by them."

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Who 'labeled' anything ? And did they go around with one of those labelers or did they use permanent markers or stickies ?


If you're having trouble finding the right words, maybe you could use an online thesarus. Or perhaps you could put your brain in gear before you put your fingers in action.

***************************************************************
I'll be back in a few days, so you have plenty of time to try to put a thought together.

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Sunday, April 6, 2008 1:56 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Veteran:
This post was initiated to honor a great American. As an American I am thoroughly embarassed that it was so quickly turned into race baiting.




I think this thread just shows that we are starting a new phase of US history where race is less important. The fact that many are no longer willing to be shut up by political correctness or the fear of being called a racist is a positive step forward in my opinion. Those that have used the legacy of MLK to claim the high ground are no longer able to shut down criticism by labeling anyone with an opinion contrary to theirs a racist. MLK was all about personal responsibility and if I allow Rue or anyone else to shut me up by calling me a racist, I'm complicit in perpetuating the problems in our society just like Rue is.

MLK was a great man and I think we can be sure that the MLK holiday will continue to stir debate in this country until the day it becomes as meaningless to Americans as Presidents Day.

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Sunday, April 6, 2008 6:17 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


kirkules..that's cookey...did you even read my thread above?

what it really means is we haven't got that far at all, when most posters here aren't able to do anything but call out racism on the other side, even while they're spouting it themselves...

how are we a healed nation when it comes to race? How the hell did you come to that conclusion?

As to politically correctness - I don't neccesarily see an advantage to it - it just hides alot of this endemic racism that has built up in people and doesn't allow the issue to be adressed, but feeling warm and fuzzy about how people have been talking about this issue is strange.

And isn't that what they did exactly to reverend Wright? call him a racist because he said controversial things? Are you cool with this double standard? He may in fact have some deep resentment about white people...but don't be so silly as to suggest that we aren't hearing a lot of resentment here towards blacks.

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Monday, April 7, 2008 3:05 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"who have labled critisism of the black community, as defined by them."

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Who 'labeled' anything ? And did they go around with one of those labelers or did they use permanent markers or stickies ?


Poorly chosen words as a result of no sleep or too much beer...possibly both.

"I agreed with it and then joined with him and many other leaders, black and white, who have labled critisism of the black community, as defined by them."

Should have read:

"I agreed with it and then joined with him and many other leaders, black and white, who have critisised the black community, as defined and labled by them."

I have a dream...that one day a white man can critisise the black community without being called a racist...that one day all Americans can exercise their free speech without fear of political correctness or grammer police...that there will come a time when we figure out that crumbling schools, closed businesses, crime, poverty, and social decay in our cities exist because of the uniform political choices that are made by the local community, not the state or federal government.

We shall overcome...

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm

H

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Monday, April 7, 2008 7:05 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


bullshit artist...

you'd have credibility on this issue if I'd ever heard you criticize the white community for its own racism...

if you could see that on the level that it exists then it would be easier to surmise that you yourself weren't looking at the world through a angry white man's filter.

political correctness is a sliding scale apparently. It is politically correct to call Wright a racist. In the "political" world, that is exactly what is being done. In the political world on the other hand, we don't see MSNBC coming out and condemning or suspending Pat Buchanan for his "Brief". Seems racism towards the black community and its plight is fine so long as you add, "I don't care about the color of a person's skin...it's how that person behaves.." as if people behave in a vaccuum and their experience up to this point hasn't effected that. As if one cultural perspective has a lock on what is proper behavior.

when you go to a foreign country you do things to try to connect with the people abroad...crazy shit like holding hands with emirs.

But in your own country you want to assume that it's just your country and you have the proper behavior gene. People who wear pants under their ass have already been judged by you. People who have too many gold chains have already been judged by you...gold teeth? freaks...etc. We all make judgements, but yours are more negative then mine, and yours are less accepting than mine. You can't take out of the equation where a person comes from when you assess the content of his character.

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Monday, April 7, 2008 7:55 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
you'd have credibility on this issue if I'd ever heard you criticize the white community for its own racism...


A discussion of white racism deserves its own thread. We have made tremendous strides on that issue since the days of MLK and due in part to the undeniable fact that he won the argument and changed people's minds. White racism is unacceptable in any venue and such was not always the case.

This, however, was a discussion of MLK and his legacy. His success in changing the minds of white America is hampered by the lack of change in the black community. I expressed my hope that we would see progress in their community that the broader social changes seem to make room for. I would suggest that the biggest obsticle facing the black community is no longer white racism but rather a black racism that colors (no pun) their view of whites as well as their own self image.

Whites have come a long way, many black Americans have benefited from that, but the overall community is in bad shape and that has not changed since the 1970s even though the social restrictions have almost completely been removed. I am certain there is a psychological componant to this issue arising from the legacy of slavery and the oppression that followed, but at some point they need to put their past behind them.

Had a nice fella this morning. Smart, strong, VERY FAST...fathered three kids by three different women (he's 19, they're underage), married to none of them, supporting none, alcohol addicted and unemployed. Idiot blew a full scholarship to a major university cause he liked to smoke pot and have sex with 13 year-old girls. At some point he is responsible for what happened to him, my only role is putting him in jail for breaking the law...race neutral.

H

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Monday, April 7, 2008 8:43 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

People who wear pants under their ass have already been judged by you. People who have too many gold chains have already been judged by you...gold teeth? freaks...etc.



You've got to be kidding! Now I'm a racist if I judge people by how they dress. So if I'm walking down the street, and see a couple of white guys coming towards me wearing baggy pants and head bandannas with gang colors, and I see on the opposite side of the road a couple of black men wearing business suits walking down the street, I'd be a racist if I chose to cross over and walk down the same side as the black men? Obama's grandmother wasn't a racist for fearing black men on the street. The incarceration statistics make her fear justified. I'm not a racist either because in spite of my knowledge of the statistics I would chose to walk on the side of the black men in business suits over the white potential hoodlums. The white guys made the choice to dress up in a manner that they know has a stigma in society. The idea that you would excuse any and all destructive behaviors because of racism is cookey. I don't give a dam what other people choose to wear but if they want to work for the "man", they should be required to meet the same dress code that I am required to accept. Making an exception for them would be racism.

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Monday, April 7, 2008 4:47 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Some how you responded to me instead of Righteous9.

In your defense, some of what passes as stylish is stylish because it relates directly to thugs and everyone knows it. Now, in my opinion, if one wishes to emulate thug style they shouldn't be suprised when they are treated as such.

Frankly, I don't understand how some of these things catch on. When my nephew Edmund came home with his pants hung low on his hips showing off a pair of oversized boxer shots my brother told him, "That's a silly way to wear your pants." His son scoffed and the rest of the family told my brother to lay off..." its cool, etc..." My brother didn't miss a beat, he reached out grabbed Ed's pants by the belt loops and yanked them down to his ankles. Ed was completely stunned and was easily pushed over, allowing my brother to give the pants one more tug. Then he walked away as Ed lay on the floor feet in the air, pants now inside out, while his sisters had a long hard laugh.

Regarding Obama's grandmother. I think he was trying to show how complicated racial thought can get. What I mean is that he was admiting that in some aspects his grandmother was a bigot. She loved her biracial grandchild, but still judged blacks she didn't know on a different scale.

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Friday, April 11, 2008 6:55 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


FBI shot MLK in TN.



And JEH wears a dress and fuks little boys for Mafia kiddie porn.

Here's new video of Secret Service agents illegally ordered to stand down in Dealy Plaza to allow CIA, DIA, LBJ and Nixon to kill JFK:




E Howard Hunt under arrest in both Dealy Plaza and Watergate trial

Here's audio and video of Nixon's CIA Watergate burgler E Howard Hunt confessing to his arrest in Dealy Plaza for shooting JFK, as proven by a jury verdict in court, as part of Operation Mongoose which was part of Operation Northwoods:
www.infowars.com/articles/us/jfk_hunt_confessed_cia_murdered_jfk.htm
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/300407deathbedconfession.htm
www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/13893143/the_last_confessions_of_e
_howard_hunt

www.myspace.com/saintjohnandthesinners
www.saintjohnhunt.com

Quote:

"Operation NORTHWOODS may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. Operation Northwoods had called for nothing less than the launch of a secret campaign of TERRORISM within the United States in order to blame Castro and provoke a war with Cuba."
—James Bamford, ABC News, "Friendly Fire: U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba", May 1, 2001

"In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba. Code named Operation NORTHWOODS, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities. The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro. America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years. The Joint Chiefs at the time were headed by Eisenhower appointee Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, who, with the signed plans in hand made a pitch to McNamara on March 13, 1962, recommending Operation Northwoods be run by the military. Whether the Joint Chiefs' plans were rejected by McNamara in the meeting is not clear. But three days later, President Kennedy told Lemnitzer directly there was virtually no possibility of ever using overt force to take Cuba, Bamford reports. Within months, Lemnitzer would be denied another term as chairman and transferred to another job. Ironically, the documents came to light, says Bamford, in part because of the 1992 Oliver Stone film JFK, which examined the possibility of a conspiracy behind the assassination of President Kennedy. "The scary thing is none of this stuff comes out until 40 years after," says Bamford."
—David Ruppe, ABC News, "Friendly Fire - U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba," May 1, 2001
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

"We could develop a Communist Cuba TERROR campaign in the Miami area, in other Flordia cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. Hijacking attampts against US civil air and surface craft should be encouraged. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be subsituted for the actual civil aircraft and the passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone. The drone will be transmitting on the international distress frequency "MAY DAY" message stating it is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by the destruction of aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal."
—General Lyman Lemnitzer, Jewish Zionist chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff at Pentagon, Memo to Secretary of War Robert McNamara, Subject: Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba - Operation NORTHWOODS, March 13, 1962
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf



"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks.”
—Usama bin Laden, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

"9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”
—FBI agent Rex Tomb, June 6, 2006
www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas so it's probably in Tennessee. Fool me once, shame on... shame on you. You fooled me, you can't get fooled again."
—President George Bush Jr, sued for rape, sued under RICO Act for perping the terrorist massacres on 9/11/2001





The Summer Glau Chronicles: Free downloads
http://www.fox.com/fod/player.htm?show=tscc


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Friday, April 11, 2008 7:25 PM

THOLO


who cares. Dr King would turn over in his grave if he saw what was going on now.

this web site is getting to frakin' political!



Keep Flying!!

Please listen to our internet radio talk "Unnamed Geek" show on Friday Nights @ 8:00pm central. http://radio.tstc.edu


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Friday, April 11, 2008 10:39 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I too judge people not by race, but by deeds, and I do deplore stereotyping.



Unfortunately, in all circumstances, stereotyping tends to be pretty true. The saddest instance of this is when the very people being stereotyped buy into it and act exactly as they are expected to act.

That's not racism, that's the truth. How many innercity kids doyou see that want to be like Dr. King? Now look around and see how many more are dying to be like Dr. Dre.

It's the darkside that's appealing, and it tends to be where much stereotyping comes from. People rarely focus on the positive and even if they did more, when does Big Media ever?

One must remember that being "White" is a relatively new thing. I have many different European ethnicities running through my blood, and for the most part, many of them hated each other and had stereotypes of each other for decades. Irish - INNA. Polish - How many to screw in a lightbulb? Italian - Mama Mia Meatball I'll fin' wack ya, ya fin' Goomba!

Just a bit harder because "White" and "Black" are as far on the extremes as possible.

There's middleground in every mulatto. Don't hate me cause I said a naughty word. It's true. If that gets your panties in a bunch, you need to shake the sand out of your kooter.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:16 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"It's the darkside that's appealing"

No, it's the money that's appealing.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, April 15, 2008 3:50 PM

GREENBROWNCOAT


Dr. King was not a hero for (only) Black Americans; he was a hero for all Americans.

If you're a human being, Dr. King is relevant to you. Period.

Commemorate the life of this extraordinary statesman, this Nobel Peace Prize winner, this recipient of the Congressional Gold Medal, by understanding the worth of all human beings.

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Tuesday, April 15, 2008 5:01 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Well said Greeney.

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