REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Just wondering, whose ready to say you're sorry and to take it back ?

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Monday, November 10, 2008 14:02
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Sunday, November 9, 2008 2:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The claims of "stolen elections " in 2000 and 2004. Bunch of sour grapes, and nothing more. You got your historic President elect, and nary a word about " police road blocks " or the like. Naturally, when 130 million folks vote, there are going to be problems, but such problems aren't always the sign of any INTENT on part of either party.

i've see the site, From 52 to 48, with Love http://www.zefrank.com/from52to48withlove/ where folks post pics of themselves and cute little comments , all suggesting we let bygones be bygones, and how we can't survive divided and such. Admitting that it was wrong for those on the Left to accuse the Right fixing or stealing the prior two elections would go a long way to showing just how sincere you really are in seeing us " work things out " .



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 4:14 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm still pissed off that the system is rigged against fine men like Ron Paul, so nothing lost nothing gained here.

I do get where you're coming from though. I thought it quite noble of the guy to throw in the towel when it was obvious instead of run around the board trying to dodge the queen and rook with just a king like we've grown accoustomed to seeing the loser do since I've been old enough to vote.

Perhaps if he ran his campaign with that much dignity, instead of lowering himself to the "Five Minutes Hate" speeches al la Orwell, it would have at least been something worth recounting.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 5:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Save for the fact that it's asinine to apologize for calling folk out on actions they did in fact take.

I am still angry at the Dems for not fixing the problem, likely due to the fact that they now intend to use it against Reps - that's hardly a solution is it now ?

I'd like to see the whole process properly secured no matter who's cheatin who, but so far neither side wants to close the holes in it cause they wish to use them to their own advantage.

You want an apology, you find out who uploaded that memory card full of negative votes and prove beyond a reasonable doubt it was not with the assistance or blessing of a particular party, and throw everyone guilty of a voting roll purge in jail.

You wanna clean up the game, that's fine, but do it for the sake of america, not cause your party is now going to be on the recieving end of the very same chicanery now that the other is in control of the machines.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, November 9, 2008 6:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Admitting that it was wrong for those on the Left to accuse the Right fixing or stealing the prior two elections
Why should I twist my brain to fit your version of the truth? Rove's cyber-guy, Connell, is tied up IN COURT for doing exactly what we've been saying all along. What will YOU say if he's found guilty, huh?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 5:51 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm still pissed off that the system is rigged against fine men like Ron Paul,


Who?

H

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Monday, November 10, 2008 6:04 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Hero,

Not Funny.

The left and the Right DO NOT want folks like Ron Paul getting traction. Neither do the news agencies.

Ron Paul would be REAL change. Not the propaganda we've just been sold.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 6:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Admitting that it was wrong for those on the Left to accuse the Right fixing or stealing the prior two elections
Why should I twist my brain to fit your version of the truth? Rove's cyber-guy, Connell, is tied up IN COURT for doing exactly what we've been saying all along. What will YOU say if he's found guilty, huh?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.



I'm still waiting for YOU to admit that Gore didn't win Florida.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 10, 2008 6:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I'm still waiting for YOU to admit that Gore didn't win Florida.
Gore did win Florida.

You see, I went to the data that was published by a consortium of newspapers. THEY did a whole-state recount, and presented various scenarios:

What if only fully-punched votes were counted?
What if three corners were detached?
What if only two corners?
And so forth, to...
What if ballots that were only dimpled were counted?

Now, the funny thing is, recounting the punch-ballots didn't make much of a difference in the final outcome either way. The final tally stayed about the same, flipping back and forth between Bush and Gore about 50% of the time on a very narrow margin.

What DID create a BIG change in the final tally was a recount of the ELECTRONIC vote. In other words, the chads, butterfly ballots and so forth... issues in relatively poor minority counties... didn't make much difference. Where the REAL problem came in was in the rich white suburbs with all of the new fancy electronic voting machines. A recount of THOSE votes definitively swung the vote in favor of Gore.

There is evidence that the vote had been hacked (- 16,000 votes for Gore. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volusia_error How do you get "negative" votes???) and a demonstration on how the vote COULD have been hacked. ("Hacking Democracy") And, the guy who made the 2004 Ohio vote system, the guy who is refusing to testify in his role in the Ohio 2004 vote, was the guy who was there in Florida in 2000- Mike Connell.

Mike Connell, Karl Rove's Computer Expert, Stonewalls Federal Subpoena In Election Rigging Case

Quote:

Michael Connell, after hiding under the radar for almost two decades as the GOP's secret IT weapon for manipulating elections, has now been thrust into the limelight by other GOP whistleblowers, most notably world renowned cyber-security expert Stephen Spoonamore, who identified Mr. Connell as the person with the most intimate knowledge of GOP computer networks including those in the White House and Congress. Mr. Connell, who has worked for the Bush political network since 1986, has been at the scene of virtually every electoral scandal of the past decade-- running Florida computers during the 2000 election and Ohio election computers during the 2004 election, helping to create Swift Boat Veterans for Truth IT network, putting his computer servers in control of the most sensitive Congressional IT networks, and setting up Karl Rove's off grid White House email system used in the firing of the US Attorneys for political purposes. Our whistleblowers have implicated Mr. Connell in the destruction of the White House emails.
http://browardsblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/mike-connell-karl-roves-compu
ter-expert.html


And since I have my own computer security consultant... my SO, who can hack into Vista or almost anything else, should he so choose... he tells me in no uncertain terms that electronic votes are extremely hackable as currently conducted.

All of this is being played out in Court. Like Berg's lawsuit against Obama, I know that all kinds of things can be brought to court, silly or not. But the weight of evidence- statistical, technical, direct- all points in the same direction. I agree with Frem- the Dems should plug the holes. If they don't, it's because THEY want to use the same power. If so, better get used to having the votes hacked by the Dems, 'cause the shoe's gonna be on the other foot.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 7:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The newspaper consortium proved that Gore LOST Florida, he didn't win it.

You MUST let go of your hate.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 10, 2008 7:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rapo, I looked AT THE DATA AT THE TIME. They published the entire table of re-counted votes under various scenarios. I spreadsheeted it, and counted it various ways. I didn't just read the headlines. The difference between my analysis and the newspapers' is that they focused ONLY on the paper ballots: the chads and butterfly ballot issues. They made no mention of the electronic vote.

But in any case, here is the consortioum's analysis:
Quote:

For those who remember Bush's official victory margin of 537 votes, the math would seem simple. Subtract 537 from 682, giving Gore a narrow win by 145 votes.

www.consortiumnews.com/2001/051201a.html




---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 7:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Rapo, I looked AT THE DATA AT THE TIME. They published the entire table of re-counted votes under various scenarios. I spreadsheeted it, and counted it various ways. I didn't just read the headlines.


---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.



Sure ya did.

Bush still wins Florida in newspaper recount



April 4, 2001
Web posted at: 11:26 a.m. EDT (1526 GMT)

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- If a recount of Florida's disputed votes in last year's close presidential election had been allowed to proceed by the U.S. Supreme Court, Republican George W. Bush still would have won the White House, two newspapers reported Wednesday.

The Miami Herald and USA Today conducted a comprehensive review of 64,248 "undercounted" ballots in Florida's 67 counties that ended last month.

Their count showed that Bush's razor-thin margin of 537 votes -- certified in December by the Florida Secretary of State's office -- would have tripled to 1,665 votes if counted according to standards advocated by his Democratic rival, former Vice President Al Gore.


It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 10, 2008 7:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Sure ya did.
Are you saying that I'm lying?

If I can find a valid link to the actual table, I'll post it. (So far all of the links say "Not Available")

In any case, I just posted a link to Consortium News. I suggest that you read it.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 7:36 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



that doesn't even take into account the 100,000 people that were purged from the roles unjustly because their names were similar to ex-felons, something that I believe(though I may not be remembering exactly) was exaserbated by Catherine Harris request for not just exact matches, but anything closish. How many votes did Bush win the election by again?

Also, Rap, there are plenty of voter irregularities this year, and plenty of issues being looked into, including up in pristine Alaska.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 7:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

that doesn't even take into account the 100,000 people that were purged from the roles unjustly because their names were similar to ex-felons, something that I believe(though I may not be remembering exactly) was exaserbated by Catherine Harris request for not just exact matches, but anything closish. How many votes did Bush win the election by again?

Also, Rap, there are plenty of voter irregularities this year, and plenty of issues being looked into, including up in pristine Alaska.



No undue intent was ever shown to occur. But where intent WAS shown, what of the 1000's of military votes the Gore campaign sent lawyers down to W.FL for the expressed purpose to rid the voter rolls of US Military votes, who overwhelmingly vote GOP ? And what of all those who were lied to by the MSM, who called the state for Gore before the Western side of the state ( the pan handle ) had closed. How many pro military voters didn't vote because they were told the race was over ?

See, you're not the only one who can toss out these sorts of leading questions, implying that , had things been different, Gore would have won by MANY more votes. Same goes for the other side of that argument, so it's a wash.

Bush won. deal w/ it.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 10, 2008 7:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Just about like a typical NeoCon - kick you in the teeth for years, and then ask you to apologize for scuffing their brand new jackboots!

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Monday, November 10, 2008 8:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Just about like a typical NeoCon - kick you in the teeth for years, and then ask you to apologize for scuffing their brand new jackboots!



1 - I'm not a necon. i'd prefer if you'd stop misusing that nonsensical reference
2 - it's you, not I , who have been kicking the other in the teeth, and now you want US to kiss and make up w/ y'all ?

My reply - NUTS!



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 10, 2008 8:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Me, I don't give two shits whether you "kiss and make up" or not. WE are the party in power now, so you can go hang.

NUTS, indeed.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 8:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Me, I don't give two shits whether you "kiss and make up" or not. WE are the party in power now, so you can go hang.

NUTS, indeed.



Enjoy your short 4 yrs.

Oh, and thanks for proving that you folks are only gracious in victory, that you really don't give one gorram thing about 'Unity" , that all you want is stuff done your way, or not at all.


It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 10, 2008 8:51 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Me, I don't give two shits whether you "kiss and make up" or not. WE are the party in power now, so you can go hang.

NUTS, indeed."


AHHHHH, thats the sound of the country falling apart.

Assholes.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 8:56 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



correct me if I'm wrong, Auraptor, or hell, I imagine you'll correct me one way or the other,

but weren't the Gore Lawyers just attempting to enforce ballot standards across the board? They weren't specifically targetting military ballots.

And i'm still talking about in the 10's of thousands of people who were likely to vote, who were usually minorities, who were purged illicitly from the roles, either through gross negligence, or through what seems much more likely, intent to disenfranchise.

The company's range was broadened. It even cautioned that many of those names would not be felons. Harris used the list anyway.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 9:01 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


They were targeting the Military votes, as the military voters generally vote GOP, or were certainly going to in 2000.




It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 10, 2008 9:10 AM

RIGHTEOUS9




Wulf and Rap,

for some of us its hard to forgive you for the direction you've helped to take this country, and what is increasingly evident has been a damaging direction. It's also hard to let bygones be bygones when you guys still haven't gotten the frikking clue, and want to demonstrate the definition of insanity by insisting that we continue to slice our nose off, even though it keeps hurting.

Lucky for you, Obama is your President. He doesn't seem intent on having anybody talk to the hand, Republican or Democrat, and you will still have a voice, and you will still influence policy.

Some of us are sick of you influencing policy, but then I have to appreciate that Obama is looking at a bigger picture. He seems to be looking to make congress and the Presidency actually work for the people,

and maybe that does require us all to swallow some shit, and work together--- something I did not think was possible after the last 8 years, but something I think could be vastly important, if we want to focus on policy and not on "covering our side's ass," or "pin the blame on the donkey"



but

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Monday, November 10, 2008 9:13 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Um, Im not a NeoCon, Lib, Repub or Dem...

Im for whomever will run the country the best.

Dont try and lump me in with people you dont like because you dont like what I say, Righteous.


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Monday, November 10, 2008 9:28 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The left and the Right DO NOT want folks like Ron Paul getting traction.


Oh, well yes I am in favor of getting Ron...Paul is it...traction.

Anything to get him out of the mud...

Edited to add: If this Paul fella really wants change...perhaps he should consider running for some kind of office. I'm sure if he started local he could work his way up the ladder just like Barrack Obama and Sarah Palin.

H

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Monday, November 10, 2008 10:16 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


fair enough, wulf

though I'm not sure which of the two is the more flattering...

Just kidding. You're right though, I did forget your leanings when I posted

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Monday, November 10, 2008 11:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Oh, and thanks for proving that you folks are only gracious in victory, that you really don't give one gorram thing about 'Unity" , that all you want is stuff done your way, or not at all.
Yo. Like Bush and Cheney???


---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 12:07 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Oh, and thanks for proving that you folks are only gracious in victory, that you really don't give one gorram thing about 'Unity" , that all you want is stuff done your way, or not at all.
Yo. Like Bush and Cheney???


---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.




At least Bush reached out his hand and offered unity. The Left took no time in chomping his hand off. A lesser man would have become vindictive and spiteful to the party which did that to him, but Bush turned the other cheek. Much to my dismay, I must add.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 10, 2008 12:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:


Wulf and Rap,

for some of us its hard to forgive you for the direction you've helped to take this country, and what is increasingly evident has been a damaging direction. It's also hard to let bygones be bygones when you guys still haven't gotten the frikking clue, and want to demonstrate the definition of insanity by insisting that we continue to slice our nose off, even though it keeps hurting.




I have no reservations in the direction I tried to take our country. That's not to say I agree 100% with what Bush did. But with out specifics, I'm left to wonder in generalities.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 10, 2008 12:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

At least Bush reached out his hand and offered unity. The Left took no time in chomping his hand off. A lesser man would have become vindictive and spiteful to the party which did that to him, but Bush turned the other cheek. Much to my dismay, I must add.
But without specifics I'm left to wonder in generalities...

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, November 10, 2008 2:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Me, I don't give two shits whether you "kiss and make up" or not. WE are the party in power now, so you can go hang. NUTS, indeed.- Kwicko


AHHHHH, thats the sound of the country falling apart.- Wulf

You really mean.... you didn't notice this eight years ago???


---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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