Israel, over-promised land by dreamtrove

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Israel, over-promised land

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 5, 2010 17:34
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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 2:24 PM

I have gotten a lot of flack, including here, for my support of Israel. I was wondering if we could cut through the high flying rhetoric and get down to what people actually are basing their views on.

Mine are pretty simple. Okay, yes, with western help, they went in and seized the land. Life is rough. They were sitting on the Mediterranean through WWI+WWII, it wasn't like it was going to be easy to hold onto land, you needed an ally, and one on the winning side.

But that's over now, and 6 million jews, and 6 million palestinians, live there.

Now if you're going to support a policy of "anyone can live anywhere" hence, pakistanis can live in england if they want, and mexicans in arizona, then doesn't it make sense that jews should be able to live in Palestine?

The way I see it, the people who live in palestinian territories are much like the american homesteaders, they're on someone else's land, but they are basically escaping their own govt. If I lived in Israel, and I had a choice between the relatively draconian rule of Tel Aviv, or the less secure but frontier live in Palestine, I might choose to live in Palestine.

It does not help any that Israeli politicians keep using this issue as a football, as do "not in Israel" zionsists, but there's ultimately a human side to this issue other than the much more obvious palestinian one, on which I'm not disagreeing with anyone, unless someone wants to take an extremely predictable leap off of that particular bridge.

Thoughts?

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 2:48 PM

CHRISISALL

Make Palestinians Israeli citizens then all would be well and peace would return to the land.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 3:08 PM

DREAMTROVE

Chris,

A possible solution, but I don't think you'd get either side to support it, the population balance is very close to 50/50, it would lead to tribal voting, and one side would win, both sides fear that...

What motivates your take on the situation and how does it logically derive?

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 3:14 PM

CHRISISALL

Israel has the firepower, Palestinians have the force of will; both would be better served combining their assets to produce a new social & economic union.

But.

That would lead to inter-breeding, which we obviously can't have...

F**k. They're screwed for all time.

The stranger in a stranger land Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 3:17 PM

CANTTAKESKY

What am I basing my views on?

I used to be pro-Israel. Then I took an intensive honors immersion program in college on the Arab Israeli conflict, which was surprisingly neutral. I understand there are two sides to the story.

One of the books we read in this program was called Blood Brothers, by Elias Chacour, a Palestinian Melkite priest (and Israeli citizen) who was immensely intelligent (first Arab to graduate from Hebrew University) and immensely compassionate. He talked about his experience in the conflict, how his father's land was stolen by Jewish settlers, and his father had to hire himself out as a field hand on his own land to be able to continue to tend his own orchards. Despite this and other harsh experiences at the hands of the Zionists, he advocated compassion and forgiveness for his Jewish brothers. His position is to share the land as they had done for millenia.

He starts and operates schools that take children of all faiths (Jewish, Muslim, and Christian) and all ethnicities. He figures if they learn together and grow up together, they won't hate each other so much when they grow up. He also is a strong advocate for improving the standard of living and education for Palestinians--he says without education, his people have no hope. And hopeless people turn violent.

His writings are probably the most influential on my positions on the Arab Israeli conflict. I also read a lot of stuff from Btselem, an Israeli human rights watchdog group, and Courage to Refuse, the conscientious objectors of the IDF. Note my sources are mostly Israeli. Many Israelis deplore the human rights violations their country engage in, just as many Americans deplore those engaged in by the US govt.

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“Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive and then go do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." --- Dr. Wayne Dyer

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Wednesday, May 5, 2010 5:34 PM

DREAMTROVE

CTTS

I suspect you're right, it will fade with time, and this is largely a govt-created problem, but Chris has a point, there is a fair amount of underlying racism, you definitely pick it up when talking to some Israelis. I'm not sure if integration dissolves hatred among children, it might feed it. Consider Wulfenstar. People develop a lot of strong irrational connections when they're young, like my mom's aversion to blueberries. Also, such schools would prompt resentment from both societies, but definitely, they have to relate to one another in a positive way, if they're going to relate at all, which I think is what Chris is thinking.

Actually it's kind of interesting to think about people's angles on things in terms of how they got there and what really drives their beliefs.

I look this as I do the illegal immigrant one, from a more or less pragmatic libertarian mindset, but I think of it as "if i were israeli" or "if i were latino." Two situations in which I think people could disconnect from the machine and lead independent lives.

Oh, speaking of which, Joe the Plumber has told people to shoot Mexicans. Can we arrest him now?

Sorry, didn't mean to jack my own thread.

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