Plastic Bag Tax???? by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Plastic Bag Tax????

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 7, 2010 13:10
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VIEWED: 1590
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Monday, July 5, 2010 10:14 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I guess all I can say is "shees!"

Quote:
Who knew the lightweight disposable sacks, which millions of shoppers use every day to lug home groceries and take-out, could help states bring in much needed revenue.

At least, that's what some policymakers have proposed. Only one US city – Washington, D.C. – has successful instituted a plastic bag tax, but at least 13 other states are considering one.

In its first month, the 5-cent bag tax brought the city about $150,000. Revenues have increased each subsequent month, reaching $226,000 in May, and totaling $942,000 from January through May. The funds have all gone towards efforts to clean up the Anacostia River, which runs through Washington.

While nearly $1 million is not chump change, in the context of that city's $6.1 billion general fund budget, it's no windfall, either. Perhaps the more significant result of the measure is that plastic bag use decreased sevenfold in the city after its implementation. Only 3 million bags were distributed in January (the first month of the tax) compared with 22.5 million per month in 2009.

The same was true in Ireland – the only country to institute a plastic bag tax, back in 2002. Plastic bag use dropped 94 percent within weeks of its passage.

The plastic bag tax represents an expansion of so-called sin taxes, which have existed, in some form, since George Washington's whiskey tax.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Monday, July 5, 2010 11:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think it's a good idea.

Plastic bags tangle recycling/ sorting machinery, don't degrade, fly around if not handled properly, and sea turtles and other sea animals eat them bc they look like jellyfish (and then starve to death bc their insides are filled with un-excreteable plastic).

The real cost of plastic bags is far higher than the cost of production. If you want to discourage their use, equalize their purchase cost to their REAL cost. I would say that you have a legitimate gripe, except there ARE alternatives to plastic bags, and therefore ways to avoid the tax.

In Germany, the cost of disposal is mandated to be built into all items. All companies have to be prepared to take back and dispose of their packaging. Needless to say, hard-to-dispose packaging is pretty scarce there.

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Monday, July 5, 2010 12:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I think it's asinine.

If they want em not in use, and have good (which they do) reason to remove them from use, then they can use the goddamn legal system as it was meant to be instead of playing end-run games and shitting on the will of the people with this tax, of which I assure you not one penny will go to mitigating the damage - they'll just see it as a cash cow, and rob it for pet projects, then raise the tax, demonize the bags, raise the tax, rob it some more, raise the tax...
(ETA: *Exactly* what they did with tobacco, soda, and other "sin" taxes, mind you...)

And so you're STILL getting all the damage and problems you mention, AND getting reamed on taxes, how the fuck is that a good idea ?

I'm all for alternatives - those bags suck ass, they rip too easy, shred your hands, don't seem to be recylable and because they rip in use, ain't even useful to take used cat litter out to the dumpster or to line household wastebaskets with.

So if a township, county, state, or what have you wants them out of service, lets use our system of government as it was meant to be instead of letting greedy political fuckheads cheat the system for no gain to us, okay ?

I always liked the way Box N Save (a low end grocery store in Baltimore) handled it - they didn't do bags whatever, what they did was pile the packing boxes the products came in at the far end of the store, and when you checked out instead of bags, you grabbed some of them boxes and loaded em up with your stuff, waste not, want not - you get a nice solid durable container to carry your groceries, which is in most cases reusable or recyclable, and the store doesn't have to pay to dispose of the packing boxes, it's Win-Win, all the way around.

Since I pick up groceries in month-size batches, I always wind up with a crapload of those stupid-useless little bags, which most cashiers under load, I mean, shit they're gonna rip anyway and they only have to make it from the car to the door, FILL them suckers, and pad the eggs with the bread like everybody does instead of dumping two cans of soup in there, ya bloody fools, meh!

Anyhows, bad idea - although ditchin them useless craptastic bags isn't gonna break my heart none, especially if they use Box N Save's idea, or come up with something more useful and worthwhile, even if it costs a little extra.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, July 5, 2010 1:35 PM

KANEMAN

Taxes suck. Plastic bag Taxes are fucking ridiculous. As a store owner I would file a law suit.

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Monday, July 5, 2010 1:37 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Stores around here aren't charging for the plastic bags yet, but a few of them ARE giving you a $0.10 per bag rebate if you use your own cloth reusable bags. The city council here is debating banning the plastic grocery bags inside the city limits.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Monday, July 5, 2010 1:39 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Taxes suck. Plastic bag Taxes are fucking ridiculous. As a store owner I would file a law suit.

How do you figure? I mean, on what grounds would you file a lawsuit?

"Sin" taxes are all over. You pay more for tobacco, you pay more for alcohol, you pay more for indoor tanning. If plastic bags are deemed harmful to the public health (as in, they last FOREVER in the ground), then they're open to the same sin taxes as anything else...

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 3:28 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Taxes suck. Plastic bag Taxes are fucking ridiculous. As a store owner I would file a law suit.

How do you figure? I mean, on what grounds would you file a lawsuit?

"Sin" taxes are all over. You pay more for tobacco, you pay more for alcohol, you pay more for indoor tanning. If plastic bags are deemed harmful to the public health (as in, they last FOREVER in the ground), then they're open to the same sin taxes as anything else...

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

Everything is made of plastic(even recycled plastic eventually ends up in the ground...you may feel better, however it all ends up in the ground). We had better be ready to pay sin tax on all plastic. If I were a store owner I would fight on the grounds that it hurts my business. It's one thing for a business to charge a bag fee to bring down their overhead...It's an entirely different animal when it's gov. Be clear. They don't want to tax because it harms the public..they want to tax to raise revenue for their pension, paychecks, and entitlements....If you think they do these shenanigans for your benefit you are more gay than you've previously stated.

”Niki--condescending arrogant fat old bi-polar hag....You are an asshole...one does not need a sockpuppet to tell you to fuck off" ...sayeth Kane

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 4:07 AM

KWICKO

Kaney, you dolt, I don't for a second think these things are done "for our own good" - I think that's what we're TOLD they're being done for. They're done for revenue, just like the vast majority of traffic tickets that are handed out.

Why don't you file a lawsuit against the big bad gubmint for not allowing you to sell booze and cigarettes to minors while you're at it? After all, that is undoubtedly hurting your business as well, since your clientele is the underage kids you like to fuck so much, as you've previously attested.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 4:23 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Kaney, you dolt, I don't for a second think these things are done "for our own good" - I think that's what we're TOLD they're being done for. They're done for revenue, just like the vast majority of traffic tickets that are handed out.

Why don't you file a lawsuit against the big bad gubmint for not allowing you to sell booze and cigarettes to minors while you're at it? After all, that is undoubtedly hurting your business as well, since your clientele is the underage kids you like to fuck so much, as you've previously attested.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

Man, you are a strange character. A mental midget in a way. Why are all your comments some weird taboo type shit? You can't seem to make a post without some child molester talk. I have a theory that its from hanging around all those fags you like so much. See, when you spend so much of your free time with sexual deviants they tend to rub you off...I mean rub off on you. So now that your mind is stuck in molester land, I am going to try to help you. Years ago I was an animal psychologist and I had this client whose horse thought it was a dog. I kicked the horse in his balls and that cured it. Seeing that I can't come to you, Have one of your homo buddies kick you in the dick...really hard. If you find yourself still obsessed with children fucking and weird shit like that...you may need a real psychologist. Let me know how that works out for ya.......

”Niki--condescending arrogant fat old bi-polar hag....You are an asshole...one does not need a sockpuppet to tell you to fuck off" ...sayeth Kane

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 4:29 AM

DMAANLILEILTT

im fairly sure we already have one here down under. people actually welcomed it and bought the non-plastic green bags from planet ark (?)

and kaneman, any tax would most be applied to all shops, so there would be no great difference in the grand scheme of things. everything will just be a tiny bit more expensive.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 6:18 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Kaney, you dolt, I don't for a second think these things are done "for our own good" - I think that's what we're TOLD they're being done for. They're done for revenue, just like the vast majority of traffic tickets that are handed out.

Why don't you file a lawsuit against the big bad gubmint for not allowing you to sell booze and cigarettes to minors while you're at it? After all, that is undoubtedly hurting your business as well, since your clientele is the underage kids you like to fuck so much, as you've previously attested.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

Man, you are a strange character. A mental midget in a way. Why are all your comments some weird taboo type shit? You can't seem to make a post without some child molester talk. I have a theory that its from hanging around all those fags you like so much. See, when you spend so much of your free time with sexual deviants they tend to rub you off...I mean rub off on you. So now that your mind is stuck in molester land, I am going to try to help you. Years ago I was an animal psychologist and I had this client whose horse thought it was a dog. I kicked the horse in his balls and that cured it. Seeing that I can't come to you, Have one of your homo buddies kick you in the dick...really hard. If you find yourself still obsessed with children fucking and weird shit like that...you may need a real psychologist. Let me know how that works out for ya.......

”Niki--condescending arrogant fat old bi-polar hag....You are an asshole...one does not need a sockpuppet to tell you to fuck off" ...sayeth Kane

Which, by application of the same logic, outs you as a homosexual, and explains your fascination with stuffing your ass full of cock, whether it be little boys or big men, or both at once.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 7:14 AM

KANEMAN

Really, you are gay

”Niki--condescending arrogant fat old bi-polar hag....You are an asshole...one does not need a sockpuppet to tell you to fuck off" ...sayeth Kane

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 7:22 AM

KWICKO

And really, you are a child molester, as you admitted earlier.

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 7:28 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And really, you are a child molester, as you admitted earlier.

In who's logic you 'Tard

”Niki--condescending arrogant fat old bi-polar hag....You are an asshole...one does not need a sockpuppet to tell you to fuck off" ...sayeth Kane

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 7:30 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Kaney, you dolt, I don't for a second think these things are done "for our own good" - I think that's what we're TOLD they're being done for. They're done for revenue

But according to the article:

"...in Ireland – the only country to institute a plastic bag tax, back in 2002. Plastic bag use dropped 94 percent within weeks of its passage."

So hardly a long-term revenue windfall, if done right. Seems like effective, efficient government intervention to me, and I'm always for that.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 7:48 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And really, you are a child molester, as you admitted earlier.
In who's logic you 'Tard

Why, by YOUR logic, you creepy perv! That's "who's". ;)

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 7:51 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Kaney, you dolt, I don't for a second think these things are done "for our own good" - I think that's what we're TOLD they're being done for. They're done for revenue

But according to the article:

"...in Ireland – the only country to institute a plastic bag tax, back in 2002. Plastic bag use dropped 94 percent within weeks of its passage."

So hardly a long-term revenue windfall, if done right. Seems like effective, efficient government intervention to me, and I'm always for that.

Heads should roll

Good point!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 9:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Man, you two are really going at it. Seems like today I'm spending as much time scrolling past your snark-fights as I usually have to do past PN's absurd threads! Get a room, or meet and duke it out, guys; you're wasting our time!

On the subject itself, I agree getting rid of plastic bags is a good thing, especially as I see an awful lot of DOUBLE-BAGGING,putting meat, etc., in a separate plastic bag INSIDE the main plastic bag or putting one semi-heavy thing in each bag in our grocery stores. Makes me want to spit.

But I DO think taxing is for revenue and little else, and I think it's kind of ridiculous. If it works, hey, ho, I'm in favor of it. It just seems like yet one more silly way to tax people.

Here, too, they give us a rebate for each cloth bag we use, and at the front of the store is a little sign "did you forget your bag?" or somesuch, which I personally appreciate, because far too often I get to the checkout counter without them and have to run/limp back to the car to get 'em before the checkout is done. But I DO see more and more people using them, every place has them for sale for between 99 cents and $1.79 (which is a ripoff, it's just because they're fancy).

I guess I'll revise my original reaction to "okay", if it worked so well in reducing the use of plastic bags elsewhere as much as you said. We re-use ours until they're past usefulness then recycle them, or carry them inside the cloth bag to wrap fruit or meat in, etc. I'd adore to see them cease existing, personally, so "okay", I agree with the idea.

The one that really fires me up, far beyond plastic bags, is the fact that you can rarely find any way to buy a lot of things without them coming packaged in that heavier, unrecyclable plastic. THAT ONE really tees me off!

However, you are correct in that the plastic ends up in landfill eventually anyway:

Quote:
Consequently, most plastic is only reprocessed once before it goes to a landfill. “Downcycling” is a more accurate term than “recycling” when it comes to plastic.

Unlike glass or aluminum, plastic recycling does not “close the loop” because most postconsumer bottles are not made into new plastic bottles. Instead, milk jugs, soda containers and other bottles are turned into lower-grade products such as jacket fill, fleece, carpet, toys or plastic lumber. None of these products are in turn recyclable.

When we collect and remanufacture plastic, we are only delaying its disposal. The final destination for all plastic is either a landfill, where it doesn’t decompose, or an incinerator, where it releases harmful chemicals when burned. In a 2000 study, the MN Office of Environmental Assistance found that plastic comprises 11 percent of municipal solid waste by weight. Landfills, however, don’t get heavy — they get full. If plastic’s light weight and bulk is taken into consideration, it is likely that it is taking up considerably more than 11 percent of our landfill space.

Recycling reduces the ecological impact of plastic, but it remains more complicated, more expensive and less effective than other parts of the recycling industry. No matter how many chasing arrows are printed on plastic products, it doesn’t change the fact that plastic is largely a throwaway material.

...sigh...

There are plastics made from plant material which DO degrade naturally, but there are problems with that too. The only true answer is to reduce our use of plastic or cease it completely. Good luck with that in our throwaway consumer culture!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 9:26 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
The one that really fires me up, far beyond plastic bags, is the fact that you can rarely find any way to buy a lot of things without them coming packaged in that heavier, unrecyclable plastic. THAT ONE really tees me off!

Oh yes, those horrible need-a-fuckin-chainsaw clamshell packages, I so hate them with a passion, myself - and am right fond of Amazon taking steps to alleviate such idiocy.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200285450
Now if only they'd quit putting all that sticky "anti-theft" shit all over internet-purchased DVDs - some of that Anime is seriously fekkin expensive, and damage to the case and artwork will negatively impact it's value - that'd be like stickin one of those antitheft tags on the cover of a collectible comic!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 9:39 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Yes.

Its terrible. Plastic bags, I mean.

Lets tax them. Like nicotine, they are the worst thing we can imagine.

Awful really.

Because, you know, actually trying to fix things is too much trouble.

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 9:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

As sin taxes go this one is pretty benign. The tax revenues go for the cleanup of the Anacostia river, which is mightily polluted with junk, including lots of plastic bags. As Niki's post noted, use of the plastic in D.C. has gone down appreciably.

All in all, I prefer when the stores give a small credit for folks bringing reusable bags, but lots of the non-food retail stores won't do this.

ETA: Our only problem is remembering to put the reusable bags back in the car so we'll have them next time. Also, the liquor stores don't like folks coming in with big bags for some reason.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 11:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

That's the other problem I have, Geezer; once I unload them in the house, I hang them over the front door knob. It's amazing how many times you can pass the front door and not see the bags! Luckily, I've been collecting them for quite some time from different stores, so there's usually a couple in the cars anyway.

The problem with the bag credit is it doesn't impact folks...a few cents for using a bag doesn't compute with most people, not enough to make the effort (expletive deleted!). On the other hand, PAYING a few cents to use a plastic bag might well have more effect, think?

I'm tickled the tax in your area is going to something specific; I wish they all were, so it didn't just end up, as mentioned, revenue for the city.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Tuesday, July 6, 2010 2:21 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
As sin taxes go this one is pretty benign. The tax revenues go for the cleanup of the Anacostia river, which is mightily polluted with junk, including lots of plastic bags. As Niki's post noted, use of the plastic in D.C. has gone down appreciably.

All in all, I prefer when the stores give a small credit for folks bringing reusable bags, but lots of the non-food retail stores won't do this.

ETA: Our only problem is remembering to put the reusable bags back in the car so we'll have them next time. Also, the liquor stores don't like folks coming in with big bags for some reason.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Kinda the way I look at it.

And I appreciate the stores that give you a price break for bringing your own bags, and prefer to see it done that way. It's not that others are getting "taxed"; it's that they AREN'T getting a "tax break" if they don't bring their bags. No one's forcing them to comply; they're free to pay more if they prefer to!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, July 7, 2010 12:55 PM

KANEMAN

I think you should put your head in a plastic bag.

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Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:01 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
I think you should put your head in a plastic bag.

Is that what your little boys do when you're fucking them, you creepy pedophile?

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Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:05 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
I think you should put your head in a plastic bag.

Is that what your little boys do when you're fucking them, you creepy pedophile?

You are gay......still.

-------------------------------------------------

”Niki--condescending arrogant fat old bi-polar hag....You are an asshole...one does not need a sockpuppet to tell you to fuck off" ...sayeth Kane

Kwicko wrote, "I've got a soft spot for animals"
I'm guessing he's talking about his anus......Well, it's true........

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Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:10 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
they didn't do bags whatever, what they did was pile the packing boxes the products came in at the far end of the store, and when you checked out instead of bags, you grabbed some of them boxes and loaded em up with your stuff

Vitamin Cottage does that, now. You have the option of getting things packed into a box, or bring your own bags through checkout.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
a few of them ARE giving you a $0.10 per bag rebate if you use your own cloth reusable bags.

Whole Foods market does that. Or it donates the pennies to local schools. They also don't have plastic bags there, period, they have sturdy semi-reusable paper ones.
I'm a fan of canvas bags, myself. Not just for grocery shopping, but for carrying schoolbooks or any number of other things. They're quick to pack and easy to carry.

[/sig]

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