[quote] An upper layer of Earth's atmosphere recently shrank so much that researchers are at a loss to adequately explain it, NASA said on Thursday. The..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Scientists baffled by unusual upper atmosphere shrinkage

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, July 19, 2010 17:12
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Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

An upper layer of Earth's atmosphere recently shrank so much that researchers are at a loss to adequately explain it, NASA said on Thursday.

The thermosphere, which blocks harmful ultraviolet rays, expands and contracts regularly due to the sun's activities. As carbon dioxide increases, it has a cooling effect at such high altitudes, which also contributes to the contraction.

But even these two factors aren't fully explaining the extraordinary contraction which, though unlikely to affect the weather, can affect the movement of satellites, researchers said.

"This is the biggest contraction of the thermosphere in at least 43 years," John Emmert of the Naval Research Lab was quoted as saying in NASA news report.

Emmert is the lead author of a paper announcing the finding in the June 19 issue of the journal Geophysical Research Letters.

"We cannot explain the abnormally low densities, which are about 30 percent lower" than from previous contractions, Emmert told CNN.com.

The thermosphere interacts strongly with the sun and hence is greatly influenced by the sun's solar activity, which occurs in cycles.

Still, the collapse of the thermosphere was bigger than the sun's activity alone can explain.

Emmert suggests that the increasing amounts of carbon dioxide making its way into the upper atmosphere might have played a role in the anomaly.

Carbon dioxide acts as a coolant in the upper atmosphere, unlike in the lower atmosphere, shedding heat via infrared radiation. As carbon dioxide levels build up on Earth, it makes its way into the upper levels and magnifies the cooling action of the solar minimum, Emmert said.

"It could be that we're underestimating the effects [of carbon dioxide] somehow. It could be because there were some physics that we're missing in the region of the atmosphere below the thermosphere, which quickly affects the thermosphere," he said.

An internet friend told me in Australia they were having prolems with the "hole" in the ozone layer, and were encouraged to wear sunscreen and not go out at certain times. Do you know anything about this, Magons? It was quite some time ago, and I dunno if there's any connection, but I'm hoping some our science-oriented folk can educate me.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off



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Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:31 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm hoping some our science-oriented folk can educate me.




The Earth will soon





The laughing Chrisisall


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Sunday, July 18, 2010 8:55 AM

BYTEMITE


The hole in the ozone is a natural weather phenomenon that occurs above Antarctica. During the winter month, weather patterns associated with normal wind flow direction in that location of the world create a sheer "wall" of weather/clouds that isolates the atmosphere over Antarctica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_stratospheric_clouds

Ozone is produced by the breakdown of nitrogen oxide compounds in the atmosphere via exposure to sunlight in a three part chemical reaction. There's no sunlight over Antarctica in the winter months.

Human made compounds (particularly CFCs) that get caught over Antarctica in the winter months greatly accelerate the natural decay of ozone over Antarctica.

Technically it's never an outright "hole" but what people are referring to is there tends to naturally be an extreme drop in concentration. The addition of human chemicals exacerbates the drop and can make this somewhat dangerous to organisms that live on landmasses approaching the south pole.

Bunnies on the very tip of Argentina have reportedly gone blind due to UV effects. You can just go out there and pick them up, I hear. Doesn't seem to stop them from foraging, because they can still smell, but definite measurable effect.

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:07 AM

BYTEMITE


As to the article itself, hmmm.

This wouldn't really be the ozone layer as far as I'm aware, the ozone layer is in the lower part of the stratosphere. We also don't really know what effect contracting the thermosphere would have. Let me do some research and attempt a prognosis.

My initial inclination is to consider this a kind of fear mongering, as once again I must repeat that CO2 has far exceeded the 380 ppm before, as recently as the mesozoic. The thermosphere might have contracted during those times due to CO2 concentration, it would be difficult to know.

The thermosphere is extremely sparsely concentrated in general by gases, so much that though technically gases in the thermosphere exceed 2,500 F, the air is so thin that you would still feel as though the air is far below 32 F. I also note that the thermosphere absorbs a lot of incoming solar radiation, along with the ozone layer and Van Allen Belt, and the primary absorber in the thermosphere is oxygen. I'm not sure we would see much effect from build up of CO2 in the thermosphere (again, due to sparseness). Contraction might mean that the solar radiation has less of a depth to go through (and be absorbed) but this would seem to me to be balanced by the property the article indicates about CO2 tendency to reflect AWAY in the thermosphere. You cool the thermosphere, it contracts, which makes sense, but I'm not sure I can see how this would effect solar radiation absorption ability.

If you're going to see heat trapping from CO2 or methane, it would be in the stratosphere. I'm pretty sure about this.

Now, perhaps what the article is suggesting is that CO2 in the thermosphere "reflecting solar radiation" back into space might act as a counterbalance to CO2 trapping solar radiation in the stratosphere and troposphere (global warming model). But I would also be wary about that assertion, because it could be backed by interests looking to discredit global warming. I don't think we know enough about the behaviour of gases in the thermosphere to talk one way or the other, and I also don't think the political background behind atmospheric science is altogether settled enough to talk about neutral unbiased positions.

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:22 AM

KANEMAN


It's Bush's fault.....this I am sure.

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thanx Byte, that was what I needed to learn; and it explains my Ozzy friend's comments, too.

I didn't include the entire article, just the first half. They do say even the suppositions wouldn't necessarily account for it, it seems to be reversing already and they're going to go on studying it. I don't think it's fear mongering, as they said it would have no effect on weather, just on satellites and possibly satellite transmission. I just wanted to understand it better and see if anyone knew if it was connected to the other thing. You answered both, thanx again.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:05 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

This article seems to indicate that there is cooling going on in the upper atmosphere due to carbon dioxide.

But the quoted article does not indicate why this might be harmful or beneficial, except with a brief comment about satellites.

What's it all mean, Basil?

--Anthony


Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As I said, the only thing it indicated was that it might affect satellites or satellite communication, nothing more positive or negative, and also that it would have no effect on weather. I'd find it again to quote, but I've hunted around for lots of stuff and don't want to take the time.

It was just about the phenomenon, which has scientists puzzled, not a warning or anything to worry about. I just thought it was interesting.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:24 AM

BYTEMITE


Ah, I've been tricked. :) (kidding)

The way that first half was written seemed to almost be implying something, which is why I responded the way I did. I suspect this is the fault of the person who initially wrote the article trying to spice it up by emphasizing an angle on decreasing absorption of solar radiation without making clear the science.

We need to absorb SOME solar radiation, or Earth's surface would be frozen solid. Solar radiation absorbing in the atmosphere makes Earth's temperature 20 to 30 degrees warmer than it would otherwise be. But we don 't want so much radiation coming through that everything gets sterilized, either. :)

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Monday, July 19, 2010 8:35 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


The upper atmosphere collapses due to Global Cooling, due to Solar Cooling. Duh.

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

An internet friend told me in Australia they were having prolems with the "hole" in the ozone layer, and were encouraged to wear sunscreen and not go out at certain times. Do you know anything about this, Magons? It was quite some time ago, and I dunno if there's any connection, but I'm hoping some our science-oriented folk can educate me.



Ozone Hole = SCAM FAIL

The Ozone Hole only happens above the arctic/antarctic circles during 3 months of 24-hour night in winter, due to zero sunlight hitting the O2 in the atmosphere, thus the Sun cannot produce ozone. As soon as sunrise begins 3 months later, ozone is produced by UV sunlight.

No need for sunscreen during 3-month-long-winter-night at the North Pole or South Pole.

Suckers!


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Monday, July 19, 2010 9:42 AM

HERO


So what your saying is that the sky is falling.

I note for the record that the Chicken Little fable has several alternate endings some happy some not but the moral is generally 'don't believe everything your told' or 'have courage'.

I think the real moral is just because a nut hits you in the head...you don't have to be one.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Monday, July 19, 2010 11:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


From what Byte said:
Quote:

Human made compounds (particularly CFCs) that get caught over Antarctica in the winter months greatly accelerate the natural decay of ozone over Antarctica.

Technically it's never an outright "hole" but what people are referring to is there tends to naturally be an extreme drop in concentration.

and the blind bunnies in Argentina--which is, like Australia, closer to what she described--it would make sense that Australia would also experience some effect. I've known the person who mentioned this for over ten years and never known her to lie to me, nor does she have any REASON to lie. Ergo, PN: I trust Byte to know her stuff, so I disagree.

One is not a sucker for bein curious about a phenomenon that hasn't been explained or that one doesn't understand...that's what questions are for, in my opinion.

Who said anything about the sky falling, Hero? I guess that's what you read, but we were discussing an interesting phenomenon scientists are puzzled by. Once again: They said it would have no impact on weather OR US, only on satellites and possibl satelite communication.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Monday, July 19, 2010 5:12 PM

BYTEMITE


The hole kinda migrates in position depending on the weather patterns, it isn't always centered perfectly over Australia, so sometimes it can pass close to very southernmost landmasses.

This is probably the main reason Australia and Argentina can sometimes be affected, though possibly you might have some sort of reflection deal happening from the white snow, and against polar noctilucent clouds or some such northward. Bouncy bouncy.

PN's not wrong, he pretty much said the same thing I did. The drop happens even without human chemicals present, though the chemicals have an influence. it might be harsh to call it a scam, just science not well explained to the public. The UV radiates and apparently reaches Australia and Argentina, or at least the locations where it isn't night all the time (outside the antartic circle).

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