[quote] We know from polling data that the Tea Party movement includes a disproportionate number of white evangelicals. And while taxes and big governmen..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Is the Tea Party a religious movement?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, September 10, 2010 06:18
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Sunday, September 5, 2010 7:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

We know from polling data that the Tea Party movement includes a disproportionate number of white evangelicals. And while taxes and big government are the manifest motives, virtually all the politicians supported by the movement are on board with the agenda of the religious right.

If we're looking for historical precedents for the conservative, anti-establishment populism of the Tea Party, I'd propose the Know-Nothing Party of the 1850s. Officially called the American Party, it was a semi-secret movement arrayed against the existing political powers-that-be (Whig and Democrat). While their agenda varied from state to state, the Know-Nothings shared a deep hostility to the Roman Catholic immigrants who had begun flooding into the country from Ireland and Germany. They called themselves Native Americans, and they represented a white Protestant longing for the imagined stability of their forebears' pre-industrial communities. For them, religion was of part-and-parcel of the program.

Mutatis mutandis, the Tea Partiers are the Know-Nothings of today: latter-day Nativists who long for an imagined past of small government (with Medicare, to be sure), of Christian values, of heterosexual white people running the show and people of color knowing their place. Yes, Virginia, it's a religious movement.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/religionandpubliclife/2010/06/religion-and-t
he-tea-party-movement.html#ixzz0yfyFEnlH
Quote:

Initially the tea partiers (at least at times) sounded like they came more from the libertarian wing of the right as opposed to the religious right. Unfortunately it was a populist sort of anti-government viewpoint which lacked understanding of the issues. Such an intellectually weak movement risks being taken over by those who better understand their goal.

From the beginning, of course, there’s been overlap between the tea parties and the Christian right. Both have their strongholds in the white South, and both arise out of a sense of furious dispossession, a conviction that the country that is rightfully theirs has been usurped by sinister cosmopolitan elites. They have the same favorite politicians — particularly Palin and Rep. Michele Bachmann, Glenn Beck, the media figure most associated with the tea-party movement, has a worldview deeply shaped by apocalyptic Mormonism; he is contemptuous of the idea of church-state separation and believes the United States was founded to be a Christian nation…

Quote:

A Politico story today makes me think that someday in the not-too-distant future we’ll look back on this moment and find it almost quaint that we thought the tea party movement was the be-all and end-all of GOP-affiliated right-wing extremism. The story suggests that there are some areas of extremism where many teabaggers don’t want to go — but there are plenty of other people willing to do what the Tea Partiers won’t.
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/08/18/will-the-tea-parties-de
scend-into-dangerous-religious-extremism/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet


Personally, I think the religious right is making use of the Tea Party, capitalizing on some of their agendas while rejecting their social agenda...but if too many of them get in office...

Are they just using the Tea Party, like they used George Bush, to gain power, and will it work this time?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Sunday, September 5, 2010 8:31 AM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

We know from polling data that the Tea Party movement includes a disproportionate number of white evangelicals. And while taxes and big government are the manifest motives, virtually all the politicians supported by the movement are on board with the agenda of the religious right.

If we're looking for historical precedents for the conservative, anti-establishment populism of the Tea Party, I'd propose the Know-Nothing Party of the 1850s. Officially called the American Party, it was a semi-secret movement arrayed against the existing political powers-that-be (Whig and Democrat). While their agenda varied from state to state, the Know-Nothings shared a deep hostility to the Roman Catholic immigrants who had begun flooding into the country from Ireland and Germany. They called themselves Native Americans, and they represented a white Protestant longing for the imagined stability of their forebears' pre-industrial communities. For them, religion was of part-and-parcel of the program.

Mutatis mutandis, the Tea Partiers are the Know-Nothings of today: latter-day Nativists who long for an imagined past of small government (with Medicare, to be sure), of Christian values, of heterosexual white people running the show and people of color knowing their place. Yes, Virginia, it's a religious movement.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/religionandpubliclife/2010/06/religion-and-t
he-tea-party-movement.html#ixzz0yfyFEnlH
Quote:

Initially the tea partiers (at least at times) sounded like they came more from the libertarian wing of the right as opposed to the religious right. Unfortunately it was a populist sort of anti-government viewpoint which lacked understanding of the issues. Such an intellectually weak movement risks being taken over by those who better understand their goal.

From the beginning, of course, there’s been overlap between the tea parties and the Christian right. Both have their strongholds in the white South, and both arise out of a sense of furious dispossession, a conviction that the country that is rightfully theirs has been usurped by sinister cosmopolitan elites. They have the same favorite politicians — particularly Palin and Rep. Michele Bachmann, Glenn Beck, the media figure most associated with the tea-party movement, has a worldview deeply shaped by apocalyptic Mormonism; he is contemptuous of the idea of church-state separation and believes the United States was founded to be a Christian nation…

Quote:

A Politico story today makes me think that someday in the not-too-distant future we’ll look back on this moment and find it almost quaint that we thought the tea party movement was the be-all and end-all of GOP-affiliated right-wing extremism. The story suggests that there are some areas of extremism where many teabaggers don’t want to go — but there are plenty of other people willing to do what the Tea Partiers won’t.
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/08/18/will-the-tea-parties-de
scend-into-dangerous-religious-extremism/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet


Personally, I think the religious right is making use of the Tea Party, capitalizing on some of their agendas while rejecting their social agenda...but if too many of them get in office...

Are they just using the Tea Party, like they used George Bush, to gain power, and will it work this time?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





It's like how the NAACP, the unions, ACORN, Hollywood, the "NEW" Black Panther Party, the MSM and the U.N. use the Democrat party?




Those arn't boobs, they're lies! - Stewie Griffin

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 8:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Is the Tea Party a religious movement?



No.


Religious folks will see everything as a means to promote their religious views. But that doesn't have any bearing on what lies at the core of the tea party movement.

Smaller, more responsible gov't, more freedom and less spending, across the board.




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Sunday, September 5, 2010 10:14 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I do not feel that the Tea Party is a religious movement, but I do feel they are susceptible to having their agenda derailed.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 10:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Religious folks will see everything as a means to promote their religious views. But that doesn't have any bearing on what lies at the core of the tea party movement.
Quote:

do feel they are susceptible to having their agenda derailed.
That’s kind of what I thought. It seems like the religious folk have glomed onto the Tea Party, and to an extent are having their message carried for them. The stuff about “no abortion, not even for incest or rape” and their attitude toward gays, among other things, seems kind of religious to me. I wonder if we’ll see less separation between church and state if those running get elected? There definitely IS a religious “component” to the Tea Party...Glenn Beck’s rally and much of what he says is religiously oriented, and it’s true, evangelists are attracted to them; it’s there, I just wonder what the result will be.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, September 5, 2010 12:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

The stuff about “no abortion, not even for incest or rape” and their attitude toward gays, among other things, seems kind of religious to me.


Well, if you are talking about no abortion on the Gov't dime, then I'd have to agree. In cases of rape or incest, I don't see why a sentence that includes full tab of the abortion being picked up by the convicted can't be imposed.








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Sunday, September 5, 2010 12:50 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


To be consistent you'd have to equally support no medical care, no medical research, no medical benefit of ANY KIND for ANYONE on the government dime. Show me where that message is just as strong as the abortion one and I'll CONSIDER if you have a point. But in order to do that you'd have to call for no Social Security, and that won't go over very well with the rank and file who are too poor to retire on their own dime. So I don't think you can, and I don't think you do.


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Sunday, September 5, 2010 1:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
To be consistent you'd have to equally support no medical care, no medical research, no medical benefit of ANY KIND for ANYONE on the government dime. Show me where that message is just as strong as the abortion one and I'll CONSIDER if you have a point. But in order to do that you'd have to call for no Social Security, and that won't go over very well with the rank and file who are too poor to retire on their own dime. So I don't think you can, and I don't think you do.




I'd like to see SSI phased out, completely.

As for abortion, it should never be considered a part of 'routine healthcare'. Available to those who need it, sure, but not paid for by tax payers.




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Monday, September 6, 2010 6:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, I wasn't talking about "abortion paid for by the government", that's a whole other matter. I was talking about the current candidates who advocate NO ABORTION, not even in the case of rape or incest. There are two of them I know of, and maybe more I don't. This attitude scares the devil out of me--I'm past it happening to me, but my heart goes out to others who might encounter it, and my fear is they'll have sway if they get in power.

To me this is taking "right to life" way too far; and in my opinion "right to life" was decided by the government when Bush stepped in in Florida. It's like the constitution; the religious aspect of the Tea Party seems terribly rigid, but only recognizes right to privacy and separation of church and state when it's something THEY disagree with.

Given the Tea Party influence has pushed the Republican party further to the right as it IS, and I fear them being pushed even more to the right religiously. I do see a strong component of religiosity being utilized in the Tea Party, which is supported by the Republican Party often enough (tho' not always). It concerns me.

Glenn Beck's rally is a prime example. He's set himself up as some kind of "voice of God" and made religion the main theme of his rally; it seems to me that's being appealed to in the masses who make up the Tea Party, and their gaining power is disconcerting.

I realize the Tea Part "platform" is more about government, but that doesn't mean those who support it's main thrust is government; many have joined its ranks who are more focused on social issues than on governmental ones.

Hence my original question. I guess it should more accurately be "Does religion have too much influence in the Tea Party?"


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, September 6, 2010 7:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to the other issue, I repeat my stand:

Anti-abortion proponents have tried for a long time to do away with abortion entirely in this country. They've had no luck on the federal side in trying to get laws passed.

As a result, they very cannily turned to state solutions and to making abortion so difficult to get in this country that it's almost as effective as a federal ban. The local/state laws have pretty much made it impossible for someone of limited means obtaining an abortion; a perfect example was recently when a Governor or Attorney General (I think it was) decreed that abortion clinics have to have all the aspects of a hospital, which put l7 of the 22 abortion clinics out of business in that state. Obviously trying to outfit a clinic (usually a small office or something) like a huge hospital is unworkable, and only served to put many clinics out of business, thereby achieving their agenda.

The killing of abortion doctors (the majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States. At least nine people have been killed as a result of violence to abortion providers), the Oklahoma legislation that would have "a woman from getting an abortion unless she first had an ultrasound and listened to her doctor describe the image in detail, even if she objected. Another would have prevented women from suing their obstetricians for intentionally withholding information about problems with their pregnancies, potentially blocking access to important information for women and families. In addition, the law would have restricted the availability of abortions performed with the medical abortion pill, leaving some women with surgery as their only option." (Wikipedia) The law was struck down by the Oklahoma Supreme Court, but it is a prime example of states' efforts to limit or prevent abortion availability. The putting on line of information about women who have abortions is another method of intimidating women from even SEEKING an abortion, and they've proven quite effective. Other methods of discouraging or making clinics difficult to access have been equally effective.
Quote:

Because of the split between federal and state law, legal access to abortion continues to vary somewhat by state. Geographic availability, however, varies dramatically, with 87 percent of U.S. counties having no abortion provider. Moreover, due to the Hyde Amendment, many state health programs which poor women rely on for their health care do not cover abortions; currently 17 states (including California, Illinois and New York) offer or require such coverage.

The most common prevention strategy is the manning of "pregnancy help centers", also called Crisis Pregnancy Centers or CPC's. These centers provide pregnancy tests and present women with information intended to lead them to reject abortion. They also provide practical help, ranging from help obtaining public assistance to providing housing and medical care. However, many CPCs have been accused of dishonest tactics, such as promising help that is then not given, providing medically false information about pregnancy and contraception, telling women that they are not pregnant when they are, and falsely claiming to provide abortion services.

Wikipedia

It's amusing that people talk about "they're out-populating us!" when it comes to the poor, when in actual fact the poor would limit their childbearing more if they COULD, but they cannot. Resistance to government funding of abortions for those who can't afford it is a big political issue, and the whole effort to make abortion difficult or impossible to obtain is another situation where I feel the religious right has no interest in the constitution when it comes to their agenda.

My personal stand is that the government has no right determining what a woman does with her body--an issue we've discussed at length here. I don't understand how people can want "government out of our lives" yet be quite happy to write laws and let government decide a woman's right to choose.

I believe in compromise; I'd view each situation individually. I'd also listen to anti-abortion advocates a LOT more if they truly CARED for those lives they are so intent on "preserving", which they don't, tho' yes, there is SOME effort along those lines. It seems more like once the child is BORN, they don't give a shit about it. There is little or no effort to do other than, when they grow up in poverty and/or violence, consider them among the "unwashed" poor and put them in jail or otherwise ignore them.

Until I see a serious attempt to be responsible for the "life" once it is born, they have nothing to say to me. JMHO.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, September 6, 2010 7:07 AM

KANEMAN


Go to a tea party rally and see how many times you hear the word abortion....Zero times is my guess....But you can try to label the tea party as religious if you'd like, i'll be laughing at you for being pathetic...November has really got you worried, but to be clear...Your trickery won't work here hippie.

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Monday, September 6, 2010 8:23 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


The tea party is a religious movement to the same degree as any political ideology is. They don't have more followers than others; their followers just tend to yell a lot more. They are to normal people what the Westboro Baptist Church morons are to normal Christians.

One need look no further than Kane here to realize exactly what the tea-baggers are.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, September 6, 2010 8:44 AM

KANEMAN


You love the word tea-bagger, it's hilarious that you fags like bringing your lexicon into the national debate....I think I'm going to tea-bag your mother and make your dad watch. Talk to me in November if you don't have your mouth stuffed full of dicks...you gay shipping-clerk. Let the revolution continue......I think I'll dunk my balls in your mouth could be a blast.....Just one girls opinion.

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Monday, September 6, 2010 9:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Hence my original question. I guess it should more accurately be "Does religion have too much influence in the Tea Party?"



Hey, from my perspective, religion has too much influence in ALL our lives, whether we want it or not.

Beer and wine can't be sold here on Sundays, in package or grocery stores. We can go to a bar or restaurant ( after 12noon ) and drink as much we'd like. Of course, then you get to drive home, and the DUI laws are designed to make a mint for the state.

I wonder how the Baptist red necks would feel if they couldn't buy hot dogs or hamburgers on Saturday.




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Monday, September 6, 2010 9:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Go to any Tea Party rally and see how many times religion are referred to...that's a better measure. Especially, it would seem, a Glenn Beck rally, darling of the Tea Party.

The term "tea bag" was coined BY THE TEA PARTY. As long as people want to go on referring to the COMMUNITY CENTER in New York, there's no reason people shouldn't call them by the name they, themselves, co-opted. It's actually more relevant, since the proposed COMMUNITY CENTER began as just that and "mosque" began being used as a pejorative to stir up hate, whereas "tea baggers" was the name they gave THEMSELVES, then later changed to "Tea Party" when they learned what it meant.

Not that I consider it at all respectful, but them's the facts.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, September 6, 2010 10:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Hey, from my perspective, religion has too much influence in ALL our lives, whether we want it or not.

Beer and wine can't be sold here on Sundays, in package or grocery stores. We can go to a bar or restaurant ( after 12noon ) and drink as much we'd like. Of course, then you get to drive home, and the DUI laws are designed to make a mint for the state.

I wonder how the Baptist red necks would feel if they couldn't buy hot dogs or hamburgers on Saturday.


Amen!
(Pun intended.)
I heard a right good quote at a local politician who's kind of overreligious this morning when he started using religious talk as a responsibility-dodge, the ole if-god-wills-it craploa.

"Hey, god didn't run for this office, YOU did!"

If I wanted some diety in charge I'd fuckin vote for em, yanno ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 6, 2010 10:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
You love the word tea-bagger, it's hilarious that you fags like bringing your lexicon into the national debate....I think I'm going to tea-bag your mother and make your dad watch. Talk to me in November if you don't have your mouth stuffed full of dicks...you gay shipping-clerk. Let the revolution continue......I think I'll dunk my balls in your mouth could be a blast.....Just one girls opinion.




Thank you for so inelegantly proving my case.

THIS is the true face of the Tea Party, folks. Never forget it.


And yes, Niki, referring to them as "tea-baggers" *IS* using the term they self-chose for themselves. And it *ISN'T* respectful to do so, which shows exactly how little respect I have for this bunch of lying, racist scum.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, September 6, 2010 5:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The term "tea bag" was coined BY THE TEA PARTY.



Yeah, but please, let's show a bit of honesty here, If that's possible.

The middle aged and senior citizens who coined the 'tea bag' name did so because it was a cute and clever way to incorporate the spirit of the Boston Tea Party. Wearing tea bags on hats and such is a far cry from the vulgar sexual connotation that the Left was so quick to corrupt and distort. It's a relatively new term, and I'm sure many tea party folks still don't 'get' the reference , so civil and decent are they as to not get such coarse references.






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Monday, September 6, 2010 8:02 PM

HKCAVALIER


I'm sorry, it was the right wing mailers that started it with their "tea bag your congressman" stuff. They new it was offensive, they just got it wrong.

But, I guess, that makes me dishonest in your book. Fun times.

Carry on.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 1:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I'm sorry, it was the right wing mailers that started it with their "tea bag your congressman" stuff. They new it was offensive, they just got it wrong.

But, I guess, that makes me dishonest in your book. Fun times.

Carry on.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



How do YOU know they knew what it meant ? Everything I was listening to and reading at the onset of all this, all the conservatives on radio, t.v. and such, never made any such reference or connection. Tea bags in the mail is pretty unoffensive, unless anyone takes it as a sign of politicians that those who supported the crown will be tarred and feathered.

It wasn't until Left wing bloggers and the mal contents at MSNBC started gleefully blurting out " tea bagging !" over and over, smirking while they said it, like school children who think they're pulling one over on the clueless adults that this nonsense gained attention.




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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 1:30 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

... like school children who think they're pulling one over on the clueless adults...


Only because they ARE pulling one over on the clueless. You just confirmed that above.

And thanks for also confirming that you tea-baggers are clueless. It comes as a surprise to no one, of course.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 2:04 AM

HKCAVALIER


Holy crap, AURap, how can you be so gorram proud of your ignorance? Here you are, making shit up. Again. All ya hadda do was google "tea bag your congressman" to see that it all started with the right and the intent was crystal clear.

http://americancomedynetwork.com/video.html?bit_id=36393

Here's a li'l linky to a video aptly tagged "tea bag your congressman." Note the demonstration of "tea bagging" begins with a man in a slightly widened stance, with the camera at crotch level so we all know what the subject is, holding a tea bag in front of his crotch and bobbing it up and down somewhat suggestively at 00:25. Then the unctuous announcer instructs the viewer to "hold" the congressman "down." Not exactly an "innocent" image, is it? He then instructs you to "droop a tea bag in his eye sockets," while two tea bags (see, now there are two) are laid across the man's eyes as the victim expresses fear and disgust. Not the sort of feelings that accompany an innocent prank. The culminating indignity is to "drop a tea bag right into their mouth." According to the video, that's what "teabagging" is. Then the announcer suggests you post pictures on the internet and the video shows a picture of the congressman with the tea bag in his wide open mouth, a look of horror on his face, under the headline, "Your Congressman is Teabagged!"

They thought "teabagging" meant putting your scrotal sack into someone's mouth, they thought it was funny as hell and humiliating for the person with balls in his or her mouth. Sadly, for them, "teabagging" actually means the act of, as Eric Cartman so eloquently put it, sucking balls. So what they were unwittingly saying was that they wanted to suck their congressman's balls. Suck the Democrats balls. Suck Obama's salty balls. The "teabaggers" found out too late that they were really making perfect fools of themselves and, you know the rest (by heart): back-peddle, back-peddle, back-peddle, deny, deny, deny, it's the left's fault, the left's fault, the left's fault.

Stay proud, Brother Eagle!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 3:01 AM

DMAANLILEILTT


Cause nothing convinces people more than saying you're going rape their mother. And I'm not sure how it works over there, but down here girls don't have balls.

I think I see why "kaneman is tagged as offensive."

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 4:21 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Smaller, more responsible gov't, more freedom and less spending, across the board.


Ronald Reagan.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 4:38 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
Cause nothing convinces people more than saying you're going rape their mother. And I'm not sure how it works over there, but down here girls don't have balls.

I think I see why "kaneman is tagged as offensive."

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"



Well, you are hangin' with the wrong types of girls. I know many girls that have balls. Now I don't mean balls as in little hairy nut-sacks like Kwicko's mother has. I mean it as "attitude". Some pretty tough girls round here. Could make an arguement that most are tougher than Kwicko's Uncle-daddy... And for the record rape plays a great role in society it keeps women in their place....well,it's true

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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 4:41 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Hence my original question. I guess it should more accurately be "Does religion have too much influence in the Tea Party?"


I wonder what the founders would think?

" Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever." Thomas Jefferson

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency." George Washington

I suspect they'd all three be welcome speakers at a Tea Party rally or at Glen Beck's event in Washington.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 6:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hero, they were made up of numerous faiths and beliefs, but they were smart enough to make a distinction between religion and government, for a very good reason:
Quote:

One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded". However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.
When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.

The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority.

The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.



None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.

Yes, there were Christian men among the Founders. Just as Congress removed Thomas Jefferson's words that condemned the practice of slavery in the colonies, they also altered his wording regarding equal rights: "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Congress changed that phrase, increasing its religious overtones: "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights." But we are not governed by the Declaration of Independence-- it is a historical document, not a constitutional one.

If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it... because it was a climate of Freethought. The Founders were students of the European Enlightenment. Half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought. The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

As usual, we have forgotten our beginnings and are ignoring our treaties currently...as we have done numerous times in the past.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 6:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to your Jefferson quote, I think you misunderstand it: "
Quote:

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?"
The pertinent statement is underlined--he was speaking about how liberties are viewed in the minds of the people." Do you understand what he was saying?

And if you want a quote as to his feelings about the subject"
Quote:

It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."

James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty"




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 7:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Smaller, more responsible gov't, more freedom and less spending, across the board.


Ronald Reagan.

H




BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Is it Opposites Day again already?

Reagan did NONE of those things, and believe in the exact opposite of those things.

He vastly increased the size of the government, made it completely IRresponsible (how many gov't officials in the Reagan Administration were under indictment? Over 200!), cranked down the freedoms, and ratcheted up spending to never-before-seen levels, in fact spending more than every U.S. President who'd gone before him, combined.

Try paying less attention to what your "hero" of the right SAID, and start looking at what he actually DID.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 7:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to quotes which indicate that the Founding Fathers were deists, not believers in the Bible nor members of any specific church:
Quote:

None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.

Yes, there were Christian men among the Founders. Just as Congress removed Thomas Jefferson's words that condemned the practice of slavery in the colonies, they also altered his wording regarding equal rights. His original wording is here in blue italics: "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Congress changed that phrase, increasing its religious overtones: "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights." But we are not governed by the Declaration of Independence--it is an historical document, not a constitutional one.



Quotes by the Founders you mentioned and historical documents about them:

Jefferson:
Quote:

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
...to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
... "Notes on Virginia"

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
... to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
... to Carey, 1816

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
...in his private journal, Feb. 1800
.
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
...letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT
..."The Complete Jefferson" by Saul K. Padover, pp 518-519



John Adams:
Quote:

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."
... letter to John Taylor

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
...letter to Thomas Jefferson

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."



George Washington: The father of this country was very private about his beliefs, but it is widely considered that he was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason. As he was private about his beliefs, little correspondence on that matter remain. However, other writings show his feelings. He was not a “communicant”, he actually left church when his wife took the sacraments. This was a bone of contention among the clergy, and there are many writings about it at http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_
americans/chapter_3.html
Quote:

Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative."
...New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence."
...Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]

A century ago it was the custom of all classes, irrespective of their religious beliefs, to attend church. Washington, adhering to the custom, attended. But when the administration of the sacrament took place, instead of remaining and partaking of the Lord's Supper as a communicant would have done, he invariably arose and retired from the church.
...John Remsburg, “Six Historic Americans”, Chapter 3

"The question has been raised as to whether any one of our Presidents was a communicant in a Christian church. There is a tradition that Washington asked permission of a Presbyterian mister in New Jersey to unite in communion. But it is only a tradition. Washington was a vestryman in the Episcopal church. But that office required no more piety than it would to be mate of a ship. There is no account of his communing in Boston, or in New York, or Philadelphia, or elsewhere, during the Revolutionary struggle."
... The "People's Library of Information"

In the political documents, correspondence, and other writings of Washington, few references to the prevailing religion of his day are found. In no instance has he expressed a disbelief in the Christian religion, neither can there be found in all his writings a single sentence that can with propriety be construed into an acknowledgment of its claims. Once or twice he refers to it in complimentary terms, but in these compliments there is nothing inconsistent with the conduct of a conscientious Deist.
...John Remsburg, “Six Historic Americans”, chapter 3.

"Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice"
...Jefferson’s journal; Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572

I hope that carifies the matter; it would seem that NONE of the Founding Fathers would have attended the rallies you mentioned, and would have grimaced at the relgiosity used within them.




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 7:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mike is correct about Reagan, by the way. Myths about him are rampant, are held tightly to their bosom by Conservatives and the Right, but the facts show the opposite. Look it up.

The same was true of Kennedy for the Left. They almost universally remember him as a Great President, mourn his early demise, think he would have done great things, and see him through the rose-colored glasses through which the Right sees Reagan. Kennedy was not a great President, and if he'd lived, might have acted in ways that were not to the benefit of the country.

People see, believe and remember what they're told and what they want to; that doesn't make it accurate.

I strongly urge you to look up OBJECTIVE writings on Reagan, which will show you that every statement made by Mike is correct. As virtually every Republican office-holder has, he SPOKE those things, but his actions (like Bush's) were quite different.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 10:56 AM

FREMDFIRMA



DAMN Nike - you done left me with nothin to say!
Imma go eat cake instead, mmmm, caaaake...
(Vanillia Creme Angel Food Cake, yay!)

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2010 7:30 PM

DMAANLILEILTT


Ah, see we call that "personality" or "ovaries" if you're feel like being vulgar.

And why you gotta keep women in their place? It's times like this I wonder if Joss knows some of the kinds of people he attracts through his creations.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 6:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem, Agent Nike thanks you for the compliment. It's nice to be able to counter that claim (which we hear far too often) with writings from and about the people themselves. "Heroes" are too easily created to back up arguments by CLAIMING what they believe, rather than finding out the facts. I enjoy shooting down myths when they are so obviously wrong.

Dmann:
Quote:

times like this I wonder if Joss knows some of the kinds of people he attracts through his creations.
I wonder that a lot, here...daily, in fact!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 8:21 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
You love the word tea-bagger, it's hilarious that you fags like bringing your lexicon into the national debate....



The Tea Partiers themselves used the term first. Don't whine because they weren't smart enough to bother looking up the connotation (which has been around for at least 20 years) before doing so.

And again, you are soooo hung up on the gay thing.... it starts to paint a picture.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 8:38 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Holy crap, AURap, how can you be so gorram proud of your ignorance?



You've met Rappy before, yes? Pride in ignorance is his sole defining trait.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 8:45 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

(Vanillia Creme Angel Food Cake, yay!)


Really?

...This Angel's Food Cake, it doesn't bleed when you bite into it, does it?

Vanilla. Angel Food Cake. Frem. ...o_O My head hurts now.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 10:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mmm, Byte, well said...only you forgot OBSCENITY, which goes right along with it.

Personally, I'm surprised Cav is surprised...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 11:30 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Personally, I'm surprised Cav is surprised...

Not surprised, dismayed. Y'know, and I want to reach out to the guy: "Really, AURaptor? Still?" I'm continually aware that there's a real person behind AURaptor's posts, a person who's been here as long as any of us, a real person who suffers as we all do, from fatigue, feeling misunderstood, longing for connection and not finding it, y'know, the whole human grab bag. So, I am dismayed that this person chooses to be consistently so rash and illogical. We've all been there, but most people don't make it their stock in trade.

But, yeah, there's a political movement afoot that does take pride in ignorance, revels in prejudice and wholeheartedly defies logic and reason. I think most reasonable people find such a movement frightening and I think that's the key. Folks who hitch their horse to that wagon are desperate to be feared, one way or another. They want the sense of power being feared can bring. That's why nations that suffer economic disaster regularly turn fascist. It's a way to feel powerful when, in reality, the nation (and by extension the individual) is at the lowest ebb.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 11:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

But, yeah, there's a political movement afoot that does take pride in ignorance, revels in prejudice and wholeheartedly defies logic and reason.
Absofrigginlootely, and I, too, am dismayed by that aspect of it. In some ways it causes them to think and act SO much against their own welfare and best interests, I guess I'm as scared for them as I am by what they might protend for MY life.
Quote:

I think most reasonable people find such a movement frightening and I think that's the key. Folks who hitch their horse to that wagon are desperate to be feared, one way or another. They want the sense of power being feared can bring.
Do you really think that's true? I hadn't considered that, but it makes a certain amount of sense. Have to think on that.

As to Raptor, I gave up on that one long ago, as I did with Wulf. They so personify the RWA mentality of "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts" that I only bother to refute the obvious falsehoods they claim to set the record straight; I have no expectation of them ever thinking for themselves. Kane and Whozit don't even come into the picture; they merely come here to troll and get attention. But Raptor and Wulf seem to have "something there", so their determination to believe what is patently false saddens me deeply.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
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Wednesday, September 8, 2010 4:56 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Vanilla Creme Angel Food Cake dipped in melty ice cream with candy sprinkles, no less!
And no, not made with real angels - although were I to catch some, hmmm....

Just kiddin - imma decadent lil cuss when it comes to sweets, which has caused a few laughable comparisons to Hinaichigo cause I do the same bouncy-bouncy thing when I score a stock of discount pastry or on-clearance holiday candy, hee hee hee.

As for the would-be jackboot/stormtroopers, there's other, better ways to be feared, but they all either take real work, or assuming responsibility for ones actions, both of which seem anathema to that crowd.

Speakin of, I found the stair risers a novel and helpful idea.
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100908
Good way to remind oneself of the priorities which get lost too often in that whole muahahahaha thing, yanno ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:17 AM

KANEMAN


There may be no funnier thing on earth than reading through a thread of liberals debating the tea party and the founding fathers. Fucking priceless...Bye, imma go watch Richard Simmon's college football special.....LMAO

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:17 AM

KANEMAN


Fuck off

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 11:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, that's funny. Given a large part of this thread was devoted, by you, to arguing the phrase "Tea Bagger", and there was no "argument" between us "libs". We “discussed” religion in a couple of posts, but your efforts to make it into an “argument” are pathetic.

Anthony:
Quote:

I do not feel that the Tea Party is a religious movement, but I do feel they are susceptible to having their agenda derailed.
Mike:
Quote:

The tea party is a religious movement to the same degree as any political ideology is.
Frem:
Quote:

I heard a right good quote at a local politician who's kind of overreligious this morning when he started using religious talk as a responsibility-dodge, the ole if-god-wills-it craploa.

"Hey, god didn't run for this office, YOU did!"

If I wanted some diety in charge I'd fuckin vote for em, yanno ?

Hero was the only person who claimed that the Founding Fathers thought religion SHOULD be part of our government, which was easily refuted.

A few cogent remarks by you, and
Quote:

you can try to label the tea party as religious if you'd like, i'll be laughing at you for being pathetic

So obviously what you consider “libs” all agreed that there is religiosity at work in the Tea Party movement, if nothing else. Ergo, from your remarks, YOU are the only person who disagreed that the Tea Party has religious aspects to it.

Your attempt to call it a “debate” among “libs” is weird. I don’t even know why you tried that tactic, except you have nothing to say. Shouldn’t have bothered, in that case. Better than looking like a fool claiming something is which isn't. You should have left it at "fuck off"...that we would expect.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
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Thursday, September 9, 2010 12:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Nike, what I was laughing about is the words-of-the-founding-fathers smackdown usually comes from me, since I can damn near quote the friggin Federalist/Antifederalist papers and most of their speeches and letters at length, to the bewilderment and eventual boredom of just about anyone heh.

So being beaten to THAT punch was kind of a novel experience.

You should check out some of Franklins words on Diesm some time, someone gave him a book supposedly refuting it, and it was such a bullshit straw-man argument that it eventually caused him to become Diest, I bet THAT caused some consternation, not that Franklin was any stranger to stirring shit up by then anyways.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 6:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, that was fun. I never knew they were Diests before; I admire them for that. Thinking guys, I'm glad we had 'em. I sure as shit won't ever forget it NOW, every time I hear some idjit say "this country was founded on Christianity, the Founding Fathers..." etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Let's keep reminding them; more people should know the truth!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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