How can democracy solve difficult problems?[quote]What if there were a machine, a magical contraption that could take the process of making tough decisio..."/>

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Just something to ponder

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, September 6, 2010 09:46
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Sunday, September 5, 2010 7:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


How can democracy solve difficult problems?
Quote:

What if there were a machine, a magical contraption that could take the process of making tough decisions in a democracy, shake it up, dramatize it and make it both credible and conclusive? As it happens, the ancient Athenians had one. It was called the kleroterion, and it worked something like a bingo-ball selector. Each citizen — free males only, of course — had an identity token; several hundred were picked randomly every day and delegated to make major decisions for the polis. But that couldn't happen now, could it? Most of our decisions are too complicated and technical for mere civilians to make, aren't they?

Actually, the Chinese coastal district of Zeguo (pop. 120,000) has its very own kleroterion, which makes all its budget decisions. The technology has been updated: the kleroterion is a team led by Stanford professor James Fishkin. Each year, 175 people are scientifically selected to reflect the general population. They are polled once on the major decisions they'll be facing. Then they are given a briefing on those issues, prepared by experts with conflicting views. Then they meet in small groups and come up with questions for the experts — issues they want further clarified. Then they meet together in plenary session to listen to the experts' response and have a more general discussion. The process of small meetings and plenary is repeated once more. A final poll is taken, and the budget priorities of the assembly are made known and adopted by the local government. It takes three days to do this. The process has grown over five years, from a deliberation over public works (new sewage-treatment plants were favored over road-building) to the whole budget shebang. By most accounts it has succeeded brilliantly, even though the participants are not very sophisticated: 60% are farmers. The Chinese government is moving toward expanding it into other districts.

"The public is very smart if you give it a chance," says Fishkin, 62, who has been conducting experiments in what he calls "deliberative democracy" for nearly 20 years now. "If people think their voice actually matters, they'll do the hard work, really study their briefing books, ask the experts smart questions and then make tough decisions. When they hear the experts disagreeing, they're forced to think for themselves. About 70% change their minds in the process." Fishkin has done this on several continents and in many countries, including the U.S. In Texas, he ran a deliberative-democracy process for a consortium of utilities, from 1996 to 2007, which gradually transformed the state from last to first in the use of wind power. "Over that time, the percentage of people — and these were stakeholders, utility customers — willing to pay more for wind went from 54% to 84%," he says. (He also ran a "National Issues Convention" for public television in 1996.)

Given all the noise afflicting the country, this might be a productive moment for deliberative democracy. "It works best when you have hard choices," Fishkin says. "Despite what you see and read, this is not a nation of extremists. What you see on TV, and in most polling, is an impersonation of public opinion. The actual public isn't really like that, especially when it is given something more than sound bites and distorted political messaging. If you give people real choices and real consequences, they will make real decisions."

So why doesn't Obama transform his blue-ribbon budget commission into a deliberative-democracy exercise? Let his 18 commissioners — who range from a conservative budget wonk like Congressman Paul Ryan to former Service Employees union leader Andy Stern — prepare a briefing paper for 500 Americans selected by Fishkin's team and then make themselves available for close questioning. Let them lay out the most vexing budget choices we face. Let the whole process be televised. It doesn't have to be binding. I'll bet the kleroterion would produce results bolder and more credible than anything Obama's commission will recommend. "People are tired of the elites telling them what to do," says Fishkin. Perhaps it's time to turn that process upside down.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,2015481,00.html#ixzz0
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Has nothing to do with anything, really, because nothing like this has a chance in hell. Just wondering what you thought?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Sunday, September 5, 2010 6:46 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Has nothing to do with anything, really, because nothing like this has a chance in hell. Just wondering what you thought?


I'm thinking with a small enough sample size it might.

Too big a sample size, and of course you'll get in-fighting. My other thought is to wonder about conflicts of interest, but at least it's daily and randomized.

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Monday, September 6, 2010 2:39 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Thanks for sharing this! Definitely something to ponder. If we are going to have democracy at all, this might be a step in the right direction.

The people who are supposed to represent us in "deliberative democracy" are, more often than not, corrupt, power-hungry tarballs with the integrity of Diebold voting machines.

Randomly selected citizens are less likely to be power-hungry, and less likely to be corruptible as they are the ones who have to live with the consequences. If we are going to have government at all, why not turn "politicians" into ordinary citizens performing the equivalent of jury duty?

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Monday, September 6, 2010 5:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Don't I wish! The tradeoff off between knowledge of how government should work, education in general and the ins and outs of legislating, and corruption, etc., is a pretty fair one, nowadays--or at least a trade I think I'd be willing to make. We couldn't do worse than people like Michelle Bachman...or some of those who may get in power this Fall...certainly, by random drawing...

Our system is so stuck in cement--BAD cement--that I wish we could try something different!

I guess the most I can hope for is campaign reform...hahahah...someday...it's the only "change" I think is actually feasible.

I thought "maybe if you started on a local level", like you said, Byte...start a movement along these lines. But immediately I thoughts "Yeah, and all those people who would grumble about having to serve, yada yada."

Wasn't there a character in some book or other where the person who LEAST wanted to be President was the one chosen...hmmmm? Some book I remember, can't quite place it...

Something about "so long and thanx for all the fish..."


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, September 6, 2010 7:11 AM

KANEMAN


Gawd, I actually like that idea.....a little bit

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Monday, September 6, 2010 8:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Never happen here. It takes too much control out of the hands of TPTB (the corporations and the lobbyists and their bought and paid-for politicians on both sides), and leaves the answers and conclusions too up-in-the-air for them to be comfortable with. They like phrasing their questions in forms which demand their prescribed answers, along the lines of "Given that everybody already knows Saddam has WMD, would you prefer an air assault or a land invasion, or both?", instead of just asking "Do you think Iraq has WMD, and if so, do you care, and if so, how much are you personally willing to pay to find out?"

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Monday, September 6, 2010 9:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kane: BUT--would it work on a national scale, or get corrupted like any other form of government?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Monday, September 6, 2010 9:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hahaha...I "got" the Grammar Fairy! Dashes are only used in the context you used them if they are modifiers. So it should be "bought-and-paid-for politicians" and "up in the air".

Gotcha!
Quote:

instead of just asking "Do you think Iraq has WMD, and if so, do you care, and if so, how much are you personally willing to pay to find out?"
Now THAT's truly never gonna happen, any more than the lottery idea.

Even campaign reform, as mentioned, will never pass because you have to have non-corrupted politicans in office to GET it...sigh...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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