Someone is WRONG on the Internet! by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Someone is WRONG on the Internet!

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 08:49
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VIEWED: 1855
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Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:21 PM

Thanks Niki, you summarised what I feel so I don't need to go over that again.

CTS, I don't see all legislation as forcing people to do things at gun point. legilsation is simply a set of laws arrived at via a variety of different means. laws can be bad and they can be upheld punitively and with force. I'm sure there are many countries where this happens. I don't always agree with all the laws that are made here, but living in a democratic country, I have the a voice in changing laws that I disagree with..maybe not always a very big voice, but I do have one.

I don't see all legislation being equal. There is legislation which definitely infringes on our individual rights, but we also have laws that protect our free speech, right to trial, sets out the limits to our governments,and law enforcement agencies, gives us the ability to see juistice done when we've been wronged in some way.

Like Niki said, it's a rare day that you get marched away at gunpoint...not unless you yourself are committing an act of violence.

Maybe US police are more militant and trigger happy. As I said, some police are very mild in some countries and some are super brutal...but that is about law enforcement and countries do that differently.

Maybe my view of extreme is more extreme than yours. I don't believe in discussing stuff around violence...it's not negotiable as far as I am concerned, that includes police violence incidentally. I am happy to state my opinion - stop hurting that person, but I'm not about to find middle ground on that issue.

I've believe that its a decent legal system that prevents a country from becoming a place where the gun rules, not the other way around.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:46 PM

DREAMTROVE

Niki

I bothered to read yours. If you won't read my posts, than I have wasted my time trying to help.

Your not reading my posts means you totally missed the humor of the situation. In blaming the nazis, and rejecting my scenario, you were in fact blaming a big govt. socialist and defending international corporations. I thought that was humorous, as much as Nazis can be humorous.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:46 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Magon

I was simply pointing out the issues and times in which negotiation could have been had with Nazi Germany.

You stated that it couldn't be done, as if it were a religious belief, and seem to see no interest in why or how or when it actually *could* be done

Firstly, please show me where I said we should never have negotiated with Nazi Germany. Really, please pull up that post.

Secondly, there were negotiations with Nazi Germany, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement up until they broke their promise about invading any further countries when they marched into Poland, incidentally one of the many non German speaking nations, including France, Norwary, Holland and Belgium nad Russia that were invaded. So much for them only being interested in Germanic speaking countries. Chamberlain has gone done in history, rather unkindly, as the man who 'appeased Hitler'.

Thirdly, the Soviets also negotiated with the Nazis, until they broke that treaty as well and invaded Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

Fourthly, we did negotiate with Stalin and the Soviets. Ever heard of Yalta? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference

You can see how profitable it was to negotiate with tyrants.

Your knowledge of history is really quite poor. You take some basic facts and extrapolate to a level of nonsense, something that I have seen you do numerous times in other posts. Where do you get your material, from some holocaust denying website put up by PN?

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:50 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
For what it's worth, I read your argument, DT and found it very illuminating.

I have studied genocides throughout history. I won't claim to be a thorough historian, but the little that I understood from history, I have found one common thread in all the genocides.

It's not ideology or hatred or superiority. It's economics.

Quote:
Lol. I'm sorry. Allow me to appreciate the absurdity of the situation. I try to pin evil on international corporations, and you insist on pinning it on socialist big government. I think I woke up in bizarro world.
I LOL'ed on that one too. You can't win, DT. You can't win.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

CTS

You caught that one. Now that I see your post I wonder if Niki skipped my post entirely, and only saw that line because it was in your post. That explains why she didn't understand the concept.

This makes my life very simple: If Niki doesn't read my posts than my many strategic tips on how to elect democrats who agree with her rather than support ones who she doesn't like are completely lost on her, and I am wasting my time.

Genocide is part economics, but it's partly primal and evolutionary. It's alpha tribe exterminating beta tribe before they mix with alpha tribe, or alpha tribe encouraging gamma tribe because they see it as so inferior that they can enslave it with ease.

Usually this primal drive is manipulated by misinformation, which seems to shortcircuit evolution. It's one of the tricks of primal psychology.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 6:11 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

I don't understand this analogy because "beating the crap out of you" never happened. The Nazi DT debated with did not beat the crap out of him.

This was always a hypothetical. The Nazi you were debating with supported the deportation of Jews to death camps. Would you still debate and find a common ground?

Quote:
Now let's consider original Nazis. Talking to an original Nazi when Nazis were in power is completely hypothetical. You can ASSUME that he would have just beat the crap out of you rather than debate, but you don't KNOW that. Therefore to preclude all hypothetical debate with a Nazi based on the assumption that he would have certainly beat the crap out of you is a bit premature.

No, he may not have beaten the crap out of you, but he would have reported you to the Gestapo. People who opposed the Nazi regime were executed or sent to the camps. You would have wasted your breath. Ever heard of the White Rose, young German student movement, non violent? They were exectuted for treason because they printed leaflets opposing the Nazis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

They're famous because they're young and pretty and middle class, but they were amongst many who died trying to argue with the Nazis. the first thing the Nazis did upon coming to power was remove by extreme force their opposition. Opposition, debate was not allowed. Obedience was enforced.

Now that's what I call using a gun to force laws.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 6:17 PM

DREAMTROVE

Magon

Not negotiating with Nazis because they were unreasonable was your whole premise. You started out by saying it was impossible.

1) None of these predates 1938, so you missed my point or didn't read any of my posts

2) The Munich Agreement is hardly a negotiation, it's concession. I detailed how I would negotiate, which was hard. This was a farce. No one asked anything of Germany, it was an elaborate rolling over to avoid going to war.

3) The Soviet Non-aggression pact was a wartime treaty, not a negotiation.

4) Yalta? You have to be kidding me. First, that's almost after the war, not before, that's hardly going to prevent the war, let alone all that went before it. Second, it was not a negotiation to try to limit soviet abuses, it was trading off the spoils of war.

The whole concept of diplomacy is to prevent disasters, not to settle who gets the spoils after everyone is dead.

Quote:
Your knowledge of history is really quite poor. You take some basic facts and extrapolate to a level of nonsense, something that I have seen you do numerous times in other posts. Where do you get your material, from some holocaust denying website put up by PN?

Oh, that's just classic. The left is truly made of venom. Did you miss the part where I said my father's side of the family was exterminated in the holocaust? Did you think it was at all possible that what you posted might be at all offensive? No of course not, the left can't offend. I keep forgetting. And yes, history is one of my subjects of study. I know a lot about the subject and try to be objective and debate.

I've had enough abuse now, and must get back to work.

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Monday, November 22, 2010 1:53 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Where do you get your material, from some holocaust denying website put up by PN?

...Did you miss the part where I said my father's side of the family was exterminated in the holocaust? Did you think it was at all possible that what you posted might be at all offensive?

When I posted on the "legislation = violence" thread, I hadn't gotten around to seeing this yet. This is horrid. I'm sorry DT. I don't blame you for leaving at all.

When you get back, you and I should debate your pro-Israeli position sometime.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Monday, November 22, 2010 5:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
No, he may not have beaten the crap out of you, but he would have reported you to the Gestapo. People who opposed the Nazi regime were executed or sent to the camps. You would have wasted your breath. Ever heard of the White Rose, young German student movement, non violent? They were exectuted for treason because they printed leaflets opposing the Nazis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

Thank you for mentioning this - ever since stumbling upon this tidbit while trying to sort out fact from fiction in my public school "history" classes (cause it DAMN sure wasn't mentioned there) the WRS has been one of my moral idols.

That they failed makes their effort no less valuable, and it was the study of WHY they failed, in combination with the work of Alice Miller, which lead me to the core strategy of what I do.
http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html

Now consider that around thirty years ago, we chose to emulate those EXACT SAME methods of child-rearing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisonous_pedagogy

All else that follows is obvious.

Quote:
“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”

Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, November 22, 2010 8:00 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”

Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.

Wow, that is a fantastic quotation.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Monday, November 22, 2010 12:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA

You should read the rest of his work, then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Sidis

This... for lack of a better phrase, fundamental disagreement over pyschology goes all the way back to Plato and the notion that people are inherently evil and need to be controlled by force "for their own good", which was bullshit the day it was spouted - and is always proposed by those offering or demanding that control, for reasons having NOTHING to do with "your own good" at all.

In fact, Alice Miller had a rightful and passionate derision for that phrase, going so far as to title one of her books in that fashion.
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Own-Good-Child-Rearing-Violence/dp/03745226
93

But this fight, between Rosseau-Kropotkinism...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RousseauWasRight
And Hobbsiean cynicism...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HobbesWasRight

This has been going on prettymuch ever since there were PEOPLE - even in my own collection I have works lambasting that "beat them into obediance" shit going back to the 1750s.

And every one of those authors up till Spock and Miller have been vilified, despised, crushed right out of history and cast in the dirt by the powers that be, because the very NOTION that there is another way, that their even COULD be, is a threat to all that they have, all that they want...

And now with the work of Doc Perry, and the Childtrauma institute showing physical, scientific PROOF that the Plato-Hobbes concept is a lie, and a tremendously damaging one - they're *finished*, CTS, it's just a matter of time, is all.

My own work is simply an effort to hasten the process before we destroy ourselves or our planet beyond hope of recovery, and all that I do serves that purpose.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, November 22, 2010 12:17 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh, and since flipping through the Rosseau Was Right page reminded me - if you wanna watch something really cool based around that theme, find yourself a copy of Scrapped Princess - it's pretty damn good.

Funny bit to that is that while I am a Rosseau-Kropotkinist, my ex is a Law-N-Order Hobbsiean, and part of WHY we are ex's is that every time she wound up afoul of the "Law-N-Order" she believed in she came face first with the corruption she was always calling me a nutter for admitting/acknowledging, you can imagine this didn't go over well, but anyhows...

I loaned her the series, and she was so moved by it she named one of her MMORPG characters after the main character of the series.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:11 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Magon

Not negotiating with Nazis because they were unreasonable was your whole premise. You started out by saying it was impossible.

Actually, you missed the point of my post. I said "if I join a debate with a nazi who thinks that all jews should be exterminated, and we try to find common ground.." I never said we should not have negotiated with Nazi Germany so I was puzzled why you went off half cocked into your history of of WW2, where incidentally you made a series of assumptions about my beliefs about Nazis and Germany and what the war was about, which I had never even stated. My mistake was joining a debate about some of your views on WW2, which in the end is a pretty fruitless exercise..
My argument has always been that there are some positions that you can't negotiate including the actually fact of violence. ie the extermination of the Jews. You can demand that it stops, but you can't negotiate it. I might have used (and probably wished I had) used an example of negotiating with a paedophile about abusing children, trying to find a middle ground.
Quote:
1) None of these predates 1938, so you missed my point or didn't read any of my posts

Molotov-Ribbentropp is 1939. I believe Germany also negotiated a neutrality agreement with Norway at that time and of course the surrender of many countries after that. But pretty much by the time Germany had broken all its non aggression agreements and begun invading country after country, they were seen (or rather Hitler was seen) as an power hungry aggressor who did not keep his word. You would have been an idiot to try and enter into negotiations with him. Your posts on how you would have negotiated with Hitler are naive at best, given the above record of breaking major agreements.
Quote:
2) The Munich Agreement is hardly a negotiation, it's concession. I detailed how I would negotiate, which was hard. This was a farce. No one asked anything of Germany, it was an elaborate rolling over to avoid going to war.
3) The Soviet Non-aggression pact was a wartime treaty, not a negotiation.
4) Yalta? You have to be kidding me. First, that's almost after the war, not before, that's hardly going to prevent the war, let alone all that went before it. Second, it was not a negotiation to try to limit soviet abuses, it was trading off the spoils of war.
The whole concept of diplomacy is to prevent disasters, not to settle who gets the spoils after everyone is dead.

So we've jumped all around the place again, but now you've gone from debate, to negotiation to diplomacy. If we jump back to negotiation, I've provided a definition.
ne•go•ti•ate
–verb (used without object)
1. to deal or bargain with another or others, as in the preparation of a treaty or contract or in preliminaries to a business deal.
–verb (used with object)
2. to arrange for or bring about by discussion and settlement of terms: to negotiate a loan.
3. to manage; transact; conduct: He negotiated an important business deal.

The above are still negotiations. Your argument that no one ever bothered to negotiate with either Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union is incorrect. Negotiations took place, and the fact that they were not satisfactory actually demonstrates the perils of negotiating with tyrants who use dirty tactics.

Negotiation has limits. As much as we'd all love to live in a perfect world where anything is possible, it's sad to say that there are people who don't honour agreements, who use violence to get what they want, and who bully others into doing what they want. Negotiating under these conditions is incredibly perilous, if not downright counterproductive and you end up with the type of agreements such as the ones above.

Quote:
Oh, that's just classic. The left is truly made of venom.

You know, I don't speak for all the left. We're kind of like individuals in that way ;) So pick at me if you don't like my style, but leave out the 'you lefties are all the same'. Incidentally, I don't consider myself a 'leftie' either.
Quote:
Did you miss the part where I said my father's side of the family was exterminated in the holocaust? Did you think it was at all possible that what you posted might be at all offensive? No of course not, the left can't offend. I keep forgetting. And yes, history is one of my subjects of study. I know a lot about the subject and try to be objective and debate.

Yes, you've mentioned your family's past a couple of times now. I'm just going to put in a couple of your statements.
"I don't actually buy the Final Solution, because I think that this was an effort to shift blame.
The holocaust was largely a corporate operation. The jews who had been given permission by both govts. Germany and Israel to migrate, were hijacked along the way, by Nazi SS and taken to camps, run by corporations, often headquartered in Germany, but just as often in Switzerland, France, Britain or the US.
If you look at German from 1934-1937, even if you were jewish, it was a lot better than anything which had preceded as a German state.
Right now I think the closest parallel to Nazi Germany is the United States.
It's also seldom mentioned that many jews, even prominent members of society, were not particularly worried about their country's attitude until the transition.Prior to Kristallnacht, any jew could emigrate at will.
Internally, it was a far more reasonable society than a largely jewish hollywood portrays it,
The spread of Nazi Germany and the saving of the jews, as well as many more Russians and Poles could have been easily accomplish through an economic treaty that granted them economic self determination."

You minimise the Holocaust, you don't believe in the Final Solution, you say that the Jewish Hollywood has overplayed the situation, you shift the blame of murder of the Jewish people onto nameless corporations, you minimise the increasing persecution of Jewish people under the Nazis from the time they came to power. In fact you minimise the persecution per se by making comparisons with Mexicans in the US and Asians in Australia. You excuse Germany by stating that it was economic needs that led them to enslave (but did not mention murder) Jewish people.

I'm afraid that minimising, blame shifting, excusing and blaming Jewish media are all associated with people who deny the Holocaust, whether you find it offensive or not.

Quote:
I've had enough abuse now, and must get back to work.

I haven't abused you. I've argued with you and I've questioned the conclusions you have reached regarding 20th century history, but I can't see that I've been any more abusive towards you than you have been towards me.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:24 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
You minimise the Holocaust, you don't believe in the Final Solution, you say that the Jewish Hollywood has overplayed the situation, you shift the blame of murder of the Jewish people onto nameless corporations, you minimise the increasing persecution of Jewish people under the Nazis from the time they came to power. In fact you minimise the persecution per se by making comparisons with Mexicans in the US and Asians in Australia. You excuse Germany by stating that it was economic needs that led them to enslave (but did not mention murder) Jewish people.

I'm afraid that minimising, blame shifting, excusing and blaming Jewish media are all associated with people who deny the Holocaust, whether you find it offensive or not.

I don't think DT said or did any of the above. I interpreted his words differently.

In my view, you have misinterpreted his words. Not only is this misinterpretation not accurate, it is quite insensitive given the personal suffering of his family.

In my view, insistence that YOUR interpretation of an author's words are more accurate than the author's own interpretation is very discourteous. In this case, it is hurtful.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Just calling it as I see it. DT's responses are a continuaous minimisation and blame shifting of the situation for Jewish people in Germany. You may see it differently.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:57 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Just calling it as I see it. DT's responses are a continuaous minimisation and blame shifting of the situation for Jewish people in Germany. You may see it differently.

More to the point, DT sees it differently.

I just think a person's understanding of his own beliefs should trump someone else's interpretation of HIS OWN BELIEFS.

Imagine Bob says, "I believe A."

If you say, "No, Bob, I know your own beliefs better than you. You really believe B," I think that's quite presumptious and rude.

Now if you take issue with A, then debate WHY in your view, A=B. Instead of accusing him of B (which he never said), imagine for a moment that A = B is only an assumption on your part and is not necessarily true.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:50 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

To play the devil's advocate for just a moment...

"I have no use for Vulcans. They are unemotional and cold. They are also ugly, with their pointy ears."

'Am I racist? Not at all. Does my comment sound racist? It's not, and neither am I, and I find your insinuation rude. I know what my position is better than you do. Just because you assume that me not liking Vulcans means I am racist doesn't make it true.'

I have been accused of things on this forum at which I took great umbrage. Things vile and disgusting to me. People made assumptions about me which I was forced to correct. I stood up for myself and did so to the best of my ability, and will probably have to do so again someday.

I also took stock of my language, demeanor, and thought processes. I took long hard looks.

If someone thinks something about you after speaking with you, what they think may not be true. However, what is true is that something happened to give them the wrong impression. They might be off their rocker. Or you might be giving off the wrong signals.

The resultant self-examination may have merit. "Why do people think X of me?"

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:07 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
They might be off their rocker. Or you might be giving off the wrong signals.

The resultant self-examination may have merit. "Why do people think X of me?"

Agreed.

But some people are just off their rockers.

In this case, what I see is no allowance for dissent. It is either you subscribe fully to the conventional view, or you belong to the wacko extremist camp. No middle ground, no alternative perspective is allowed.

Here, if you look at Nazi Germany in any way other than they are Demon Spawns from Hell, you belong in the Holocaust Denial camp. Did DT deny that the Holocaust took place? No. Did he say, "Aw shucks, Jews didn't suffer that much, or the numbers of deaths were exaggerated?" No. But out comes the accusations of "minimizing" and "excusing" and getting info from PN's holocaust denial buddies.

It's rude and hurtful. That's all I'm sayin'. If I may borrow Magon's phrase, I'm calling it as I see it.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:11 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I agree we have people insisting on riding the seesaw when that's not the best game on the playground.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2010 8:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

CTTS, I disagree with what some of what you said DT DIDN’T say.

Quote:
You minimise the Holocaust, you don't believe in the Final Solution, you say that the Jewish Hollywood has overplayed the situation, you shift the blame of murder of the Jewish people onto nameless corporations, you minimise the increasing persecution of Jewish people under the Nazis from the time they came to power.

I believe that by blaming the reason the Nazis did what they did on the things he did (our unwillingness to negotiate—which I believe we did try to do, blaming corporatists, etc, he WAS minimizing the Nazi regime.

He called it

Quote:
a tragic failed state full of humans capable of reason

I think that’s inaccurate. Maybe a large portion of Germany was capable of reason, but they weren’t in charge. Their government was; and their government wasn’t open to reason.

Quote:
Right now I think the closest parallel to Nazi Germany is the United States

I find that an amazing statement. While there are certain comparisons that hold, the differences were huge and that’s at the very least an oversimplification.

Quote:
Our war saved no one.... If Japan had one the war, fewer people would have died, and that's pretty much a guarantee.

He makes flat statements like this as if they were fact; first, nobody can know, second, does he really think Hitler and his crew would have stopped murdering Jews, not beaten England, not annexed France, if we hadn’t helped defeat him? And how he thought there would have been fewer deaths if Japan had won the war defeats me.

Quote:
fact that the solution we chose did not only not prevent the holocaust, it may have caused it.

The holocaust didn’t start before we went to war? That comes as a surprise to me.

There are so many things he stated as fact which I find highly questionable. As I haven’t “studied” WWII I won’t attempt to look up material which could authoritatively debate the issues he stated, but I think what he stated often as “fact” was actually his conclusions and his opinions. Saying his only option was to be “delusional” if he didn’t believe what he said was reality pretty much says it all.

Quote:
I try to pin evil on international corporations, and you insist on pinning it on socialist big government.

was not only an incorrect assumption but an extrapolation of what I had written to become a complete generalization.

I also don’t see

Quote:
It is either you subscribe fully to the conventional view, or you belong to the wacko extremist camp. No middle ground, no alternative perspective is allowed. Here, if you look at Nazi Germany in any way other than they are Demon Spawns from Hell, you belong in the Holocaust Denial camp.

Arguments were made that attempting to negotiate with Nazi Germany wouldn’t have been feasible, and that it wasn’t America’s fault that WWII came about, among other things. If someone said DT was denying the Holocaust, I missed it; but he DID blame AMERICA for creating the holocaust. We DID debate his points; we questioned his conclusions and refuted a number of his arguments with our opinions. What you see as pure condemnation I see as an attempt to debate. What we got back was “I’m right.”, to the point where he answered my questioning with “I studied it”, no cites, no information from any other source than his opinions, just a flat denunciation of my questioning because he had studied the issue. I didn’t see any ground given anywhere along the line by DT.

Magons put up three links to people who DID negotiate with Nazi Germany, even made pacts to appease them. Germany broke all of those; ergo, wouldn’t it be logical that, looking at those results, America would have thought that attempts at negotiation weren’t viable? When you see someone negotiate, repeatedly, and it does no good, isn’t t going to lessen your desire to attempt negotiations/agreements with that person?

I believe you’re caught up in seeing things through one perspective, and seeing them as more aggressive than they actually were.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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