Creepy phone call by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Creepy phone call

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Friday, March 18, 2011 14:42
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Friday, March 18, 2011 4:48 AM

I got this call from 202 292 2568

As a member of jewish community do you feel the need to defend israel against its enemies?
me: yes

Do you feel Iran's development of a nuclear weapon is a grave threat to Israel?
me: no

Do you think that Obama's strategy for controlling Iran is too weak against Iran?
me: no

Do you think it is necessary to educate the jewish people of the immediate threat posed to Israel by Iran?

I had to think about this one for a second, and then I decided it was a plea for funding for a propaganda machine to defame Iran, which poses no threat to Israel, IMHO, so: me: no.

Does anyone know who these guys are? I couldn't find them. I would like to register my opinion, which didn't seem to be in their poll, that Iran represents no threat to Israel unless our dumb asses attack them, in which case, sure, it does... but the existence of a military machine does not itself pose a threat if you're not at war with it.

Engaging Iran greatly increases the likelihood of Israel being destroyed. Ignoring Iran completely makes that chance fairly slim. Actively negotiating in a positive way with Iran can potentially remove that threat.

I think that the poll will take my result as opposition to Israel, but I think anyone who truly supports Israel does not want to see it destroyed in an utterly pointless war with nation which is, lets face it, far more powerful than Israel.

While I'm ranting, a word about my feelings towards Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Iran has been attacked by US, British and Israeli forces many times over the course of this war, and has staid its hand. They have to know that they have the military power to remove Israel from the map whenever they choose, and have chosen not to do so.

While I'm still ranting, a word about Israel: The exact same could be said about Israel's behavior towards Palestine: Israel is vastly more powerful than Palestine and could at any point remove them from the map, and has chosen not to do so.

Now, applying some backwards logic: I know *why* Israel has not eradicated Palestine. Israel holds every jewish life to be sacred, more or less ;) but that is their operating premise. Ergo, while they would like to displace the Palestinians and claim that land as part of Israel, they have not done so militarily because the cost would be greater than zero. A lot of Israelis might die, esp. if some foreign power entered on the Palestinian side, even if it was just to arm the Palestinians.

What reason, if any, do I have to assume that the Iranians are not applying the same logic to their own country? Sure, they see Israel as a threat, and would like to see it gone. But yes, they also recognize that this cannot be done without a serious cost in Iranian lives. It's not *that* important to them that they're willing to sacrifice part of Iran or risk a global war to remove a threat which may be, from their perspective a wasp buzzing around their head.

So, sure, Iran sends militia groups into Israel and they get shot. Israel sends fighter planes into Iran, and they get shot down. Maybe there's a better solution, like, you know, they could talk it out, and say "Hey, you're all the way over here, and they're all the way over there."

And talks might go like this:

Israel: Stop arming palestinians.
Iran: If we don't defend palestinians, I won't get re-elected in Iran.
Israel: Yeah, but you don't have to arm them to shoot jews. You could help Palestinians resettle in Iran, your people would support you in that.
Iran: Yes, they probably would, but that would cost a ton of cash, and we're on a tight budget.

Israel... Hmmm... gnaws that one over.

But that talk never happens if no one talks.

If Israel pushes the US or UK or EU into helping it take down Iran, Israel is getting nuked. If you want to defend Israel, then a path of action that does not end in them getting nuked is a good defense.

Iran is difficult, but not unreasonable. It's a subtle difference. It would be disingenuous to not describe Israel itself similarly. Negotiations would be difficult, but then, they always are. It might involve taking risks and making sacrifices. Perhaps true cowards go to war.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 5:25 AM

CANTTAKESKY

DT,

Insightful, as always. I can't think of any particular point on which to disagree.

I suspect the phone call was done by a Christian "dominionist" group. (Thanks, Niki.)

When I was active in the Libertarian Party, I attended a number of workshops and stuff about libertarian activism. Some of those workshops were conducted by organizations whose mission is to help the Christian Right gain political power. They are very well funded, very organized, and very politically savvy. I was blown away. I had NO idea the Christian Right had such ambitious "dominionist" aspirations, and I had no idea they had advanced so far as they have without have a large, mainstream party of their own.

(The methods they shared in the workshops are not ideology-specific, so that is why it was no problem to adapt the techniques for libertarian activists. They talked about how to do telephone "polls" and mailers and newsletters and fundraising.)

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Friday, March 18, 2011 5:42 AM

DREAMTROVE

CTS

I would be surprised. I think it was AIPAC. My main reason for this is that I can't think of why the Dominionists would have my number (yeah, I know who they are, but if they have a list of Jewish Americans, that would disturb me.) It essentially opened with a "Dear Jew" greeting, and I figure that they knew, some people in my family would have direct connections to AIPAC, but not to Dominionists.

I know that Zionists do fund Christian groups, and that AIPAC is not in the habit of making unsolicited phone calls, so you could be right, but there's one detail about that version of events that greatly disturbs me:

If AIPAC is handing out to the christian groups that it supports lists of names of all the people of Jewish descent in this country, that would seem to show a staggering ignorance of history.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 7:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Of course it was AIPAC.
Via this front group.
http://www.rjchq.org/

As for the dominionists, don't even get me started about the friggin AoG - not only are they themselves monstrous in conduct and behavior, via Bush they get tons of YOUR TAX DOLLARS funneled into their religious agenda under the fig leaf of "faith based" bullshit, and have you noticed that for all that money, nobody ever seemed to get ANY help, hmm ?

Oh but that's not the worst of it, oh no - one of the few hellcamps still in operation is not only owned by them, it's also taxpayer funded via "faith based" bullshit.
http://minnesotaindependent.com/52630/state-funding-for-minnesota-teen
-challenge-questioned

And just in case you might dispute the Hellcamp attribution, here's DogEmporers in-depth piece, just to START, oh believe me, the dirt on this one goes Deeeep.
http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2008/05/daily-kos-dogemperor-tee
n-challenge.html

Alas, the AoG bastards around here are at least halfway smarter than those damn Baptists were, they all but flee in terror when I come by, but I won't get into the details of that just yet...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 8:47 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Of course it was AIPAC.
Via this front group.
http://www.rjchq.org/

Getting closer. I was Reform before I was a Democrat, and sure, sometimes I vote republican, but they don't know that, they wouldn't have this number. Plus, attacking Iran is an agenda that the democrats are perfectly in line with, so I'm guessing that they have a democrat counterpart.

Oh fuck. I'm an idiot. It's a push poll. The main purpose of a push poll is to measure the response to the language, not the opinion. I should have said, yeah, go ahead, nuke the fuckers, and supported their idiocy in using that language.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 10:09 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Do you feel Iran's development of a nuclear weapon is a grave threat to Israel?
me: no

Do you think that Obama's strategy for controlling Iran is too weak against Iran?
me: no

Bad Jew! Bad! Bad!

You were off the rails from this point on.

That fella developing nukes says the holocaust didn't happen and wants to use the nukes on Isreal, is that I bad thing? Guess thats a big "HELL NO" from you.

Clearly you were not their target demographic.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 11:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I had to think about this one for a second, and then I decided it was a plea for funding for a propaganda machine to defame Iran, which poses no threat to Israel, IMHO, so: me: no.

Gee, I dunno. Any state which funds Hamas and Hezbollah, has stated that it's goal is to erase Israel off the face of the map, seems pretty much a threat to me.

JMHO

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Friday, March 18, 2011 12:26 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Oh no, I started Frem on the AoG again.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 12:29 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
If AIPAC is handing out to the christian groups that it supports lists of names of all the people of Jewish descent in this country, that would seem to show a staggering ignorance of history.

Bwahaha. OK, it wasn't funny funny, but so ironic it was funny.

AIPAC should know better, shouldn't it?

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Friday, March 18, 2011 2:42 PM

DREAMTROVE

Hero

As the actual descendant of actual holocaust survivors and non-survivors, I will use a brain, rather than talking points, to make my decisions on what is a threat. I know that is not an option for you.

I disagree with Ahmadinejad on some points, but he did not say the holocaust didn't happen, he said it was not an excuse for the Israeli occupation. I guess I have to agree with him on that, but not that the Jews should go home, but he hasn't said that. He has said that the jews and muslims must share palestine as equals. I guess that's up to them, but it's not a completely irrational position.

For understanding what Ahmadinejad is really saying, you have to watch the UN meetings or the foreign press. MEMRI is a division of the IDF, and if you trust the IDF to tell you what their own enemies are saying than you're an even bigger moron than I think you are.

As for nukes, I suspect he is developing a nuke in spite of the fact that he says he's not, but I don't think he'll use it on Israel unless they nuke Iran. I think he wants it because he noticed we were all talking about invading NK until KJI got a nuke, and then we backed off of that plan right quick. That sent a pretty strong message to Iran.

Am I completely comfy with a nuclear Iran? Of course not. But then, I'm not completely comfy with a nuclear NK, or Brazil, Pakistan, India, the US, or frankly, Israel. I actually think after us, the worst behaved nuclear nations are Russia and France. I'm not about to judge Iran against that line up. Less responsible than India? More responsible than Pakistan? Somewhere in there, I guess. The people on Earth I trust least with a nuke is the US. That's not just history, that's the recent threats and attempts included. Second least favorite would be NK.

Quote:
Rap

Gee, I dunno. Any state which funds Hamas and Hezbollah, has stated that it's goal is to erase Israel off the face of the map, seems pretty much a threat to me.

Once again I'm put in the position of defending the other side, because our side is frankly looney tunes.

First, drinking the MEMRI koolaid?

Second. Three statements here, one of which is corrent:

Funds Hamas? News to me. I thought they were getting their support from the Saudis. Strangely, no one on the right seems concerned about them.

Funds Hezbollah? Yeah, absolutely they do. That's what I was just alluding to. They can fund them all they want in places that *want* them, but they also fund them in Israel, Iraq, and lots of places they aren't officially welcome. That's the sort of thing that you talk about at the talks that we're not actually having and neither is Israel, because, apparently, we want war instead.

Part of my concern on this is that I've done a lot of military analysis of the situation and come to the conclusion that we will almost certainly lose. Even if we "win" in the pyrrhic WWII and WWI way, Israel will still suffer unacceptable casualties, and whether or not you think they are acceptable, I guarantee you Israel doesn't think so.

Now for the bogus talking point:
"stated that it's goal is to erase Israel off the face of the map"
Actually, that's a bungle of it, but the talking point is a MEMRI special. I went through several translations of this infamous statement, and it did not contain erase, wipe, delete, map, etc. or any of those words. It was actually this:

He said "that the zionist regime needed to be removed from power."

Inflamatory? Sure. He called for regime change in another country. If neither Israel or the US had not previously called for regime change in Iran, or the removal of the Islamic Republic as an institution, it would seem more out of place.

The fact is that we both called for regime change in Iraq, and then thoroughly dismantled the govt, the infrastructure, and killed or contributed to the deaths of a number of Iraqis equal to half the population of Israel. This actually kind of flattens our credibility on this issue.

There are lots of possible solutions.

Israel wants to declare the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel. If they do that are they going to allow all of those muslims to vote? If so, then, yes, there will be regime change in Israel.

In spite of this, there are peaceful solutions that could be worked out. The problem is that peace is never discussed if one side is absolutely sure of victory. Why Israel is certain of a victory which has eluded it for 44 years, I'm not exactly sure.

Seems that's about the time that the USSR held eastern Europe for. That was enough time to build and lose an empire. Israel has been picking fights with kids with stones for 44 years, in part because they know if they go to war that other powers will join the other side.

CTS,

A dollar gets you a nickel that these guys aren't even jews but ex-nazis who renamed themselves jews to avoid persecution. I really don't think they care.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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