cynical or delusional? by 1kiki

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

cynical or delusional?

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Monday, August 8, 2011 05:41
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Friday, August 5, 2011 3:36 PM

That was in 2009, and yes, Koch brothers, Freedom Works, and Fox News all jumped in, and put their political favourites at the front of the thing.

But the tea party did exist before 2009. Ron Paul created it in 2007.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/488021/tea_party_2007_ron_pau
l_sets_a_new.html

Therefore, it was a takeover. A hostile one at that.

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Saturday, August 6, 2011 9:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I think he's talking about TODAY's Tea Party. We've discussed this before, that what Ron Paul stood for bears little resemblance to what the Tea Party of today is espousing. They essentially USED his popularity to get attention, then went their own way. For funding, too:

Quote:
They ran on the republican ticket, that means they got funding from the GOP to run, and now they have won they are republicans. This means that the republican party can withdraw support if they don't act like republicans. Ergo, they will likely lose the following election, as the GOP would run a candidate against them, splitting the conservative vote. Pretty simple, no complex conspiracies needed.

You're right, DT, they don't need a conspiracy. Sometimes the way things happen just makes me wonder if what we THINK is behind it isn't really what's behind it.

Whatever the original Tea Party stood for, it's not the same as what today's righties who CALL themselves the Tea Party want to achieve. They've even gone after Ron Paul several times. Pretty much says it all, for me.

No conspiracy, just, as Frem quoted, "a crafty example of political manipulation".

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, August 6, 2011 10:40 AM

BYTEMITE

Ah. 'Kay.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:57 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You first, I've asked you to explain how racial make up of a country would mean the Nordic would not work. I got nothing.

Yeah, because if you can't understand the difference between a small nation w/ an mostly homogeneous population, compared to a larger, more diverse population, then I don't have the time or interest in waste to educate you on such matters.

Quote:

I asked you to point out any ridiculous environmental regulation, I even spotted you the Federal Safe Drinking Water Act. I got nothing.
Another laborious task, which would fill a phone books worth of info, not worth my time.

Quote:

I asked you to explain how the federal deficit is taking money out of peoples pockets right now and dragging down the economy, nothing.
Seriously ? Are you this naive on matters of economics ? Umm..we just got down graded from AAA to AA. Don't think that'll affect interest rates any time soon? Ever try to buy a house, a car, or get a loan ? Things stay as they are w/ this administration, and Congress fails to get serious w/ this deficit, our interest rates will be going up. That affects EVERYONE.

Quote:
It is fact that the TEA parties where started in support of Ron Paul. It is fact that every TEA party group of any kind of size has massive political funding. So I have not reason to reply to you in any way other then to mock your ignorance.

Well, ya got the 1st one partially right, and kinda missed on the 2nd part, but I'm not real sure what the hell that has to do with anything of significance.

Seems like you're just yammering on, and then showing your desire to be confrontational, revealing just how incapable you are of civility.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:20 AM

DREAMTROVE

Byte is correct.

This movement started as the Ron Paul revolution. Paul started using the term tea party, and did so many times, in late 2007, including holding a conference with other disaffected groups (invluding ones he really diasgreed with like socialists) for a "big tent" tea party movement.

Then, that movement was joined by FOX News, Glenn Beck, the Koch Bros, etc. Who *ounumbered* them about 4:1.

This is how takeovers happen. It's a side effect of democracy. Whem the Buchanan Brigade took over the RPUSA, they did so by having superior numbers. Once in the party, they voted themselves into positions of power, installed their own leaders over the existing ones, and pushed their reactionary right wing agenda.

Now a lot of those people were real reformers, but that's not where their roots were, but it would be wrong to say that these were the real roots of the RPUSA, and they just changed the name. They took over Reform for a good reason: it was being more successful than they were,

Frem, your argument makes no sense. Why would the republican status quo, who was quite successful, far more so than any third party movement, start a revolution against *itself*? That's just nonsensical. It gets even worse when you consider the values that it brought, many of which were direct challenges to the republican status quo. So, seriously, the federal reserve who would prefer not to ever be mentioned, started a revolution to try to get word out about its evils in hopes that someone might dissolve itself?

Consider Byte's alternate scenario here: Ron Paul started a revolution, in 2007, which stood for basically the same core values, and the republican status quo and the federal reserve were suddenly scared of this revolution, so they took it over, because that was easier than defeating it.

This makes a lot more sense to me, logically, and also timewise. If your tracing of this movement only goes back to 2009, Herman Cain was active as a tea party organizer in 2009, and he was a fed chair. He's up there with the Koch bros as a first taker overer. I don't quite put Sarah Palin in the same camp because I think she would just assume run a tea third party, which would elect any democrat, whereas I think Cain is a loyal republican.

The "it was all a front from the beginning" scenario just fails the motive means opportunity test.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 3:06 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Consider Byte's alternate scenario here: Ron Paul started a revolution, in 2007, which stood for basically the same core values, and the republican status quo and the federal reserve were suddenly scared of this revolution, so they took it over, because that was easier than defeating it.

Bear in mind, though, that the Republican Party's name was also badly damaged at the time, with serious politicos saying in public that the party might be beyond redemption and on its way to extinction after the Bush debacle, the unpopular wars, and the economic collapse they engineered and initiated.

They were at a point where the quickest way to lose an election was to get listed as a Republican candidate; they HAD to make a change, and quickly. That, I believe, is where Frem is coming from with his analysis.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:04 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, because if you can't understand the difference between a small nation w/ an mostly homogeneous population, compared to a larger, more diverse population, then I don't have the time or interest in waste to educate you on such matters.

I do understand the differences. You claim those differences would not make the implementation of the Nordic model possible. The Nordic model has nothing to do with those differences so it would not affect it at all. You know this, or have no idea what the Nordic model is, thous you can't back up your argument. AKA your full of crap.

Quote:

Another laborious task, which would fill a phone books worth of info, not worth my time.

I asked for just one, a single regulation. Again back up you claim or it is erroneous.

Quote:

Seriously ? Are you this naive on matters of economics ? Umm..we just got down graded from AAA to AA. Don't think that'll affect interest rates any time soon? Ever try to buy a house, a car, or get a loan ? Things stay as they are w/ this administration, and Congress fails to get serious w/ this deficit, our interest rates will be going up. That affects EVERYONE.

Well we knew interest rates would be going up eventually because they are at lows. Yet the downgrade in credit came very much after I asked you how the deficit was taking money out of peoples pockets right now. You still have not answered, because you can't.

Quote:

Well, ya got the 1st one partially right, and kinda missed on the 2nd part, but I'm not real sure what the hell that has to do with anything of significance.

Seems like you're just yammering on, and then showing your desire to be confrontational, revealing just how incapable you are of civility.

Wrong again, just look up Freedom Works and who supports them and who they support. The TEA parties are not grassroots organizations. They are unknowing shills for powerful corporate interests. Your being trended on and used and don't even know it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:23 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Again back up you claim or it is erroneous.

Unsubstantiated. Erroneous means incorrect, which we can't determine yet based on a limited offering of information or explanation.

While I'd disagree that all of the EPA has served no purpose, I offer the Halliburton loophole. Also, that Maximum Contaminant Levels and Regional Screening Levels for a number of compounds are widely acknowledged in the clean-up industry to exceed toxicity considerations.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 5:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

The down grade came as a RESULT of the massive deficit. How you don't grasp that fact, or that you can't... is bewildering to me.

EPA ? -

Quote:
Last July, EPA invalidated the 16-year old Texas Flexible Permitting Program. A strategic mechanism for achieving huge emissions reductions, the flexible permits impose tight emission caps for industrial facilities, while leaving plant operators some flexibility to innovate.

Now, purportedly because of concerns about specificity in the language of the permits, EPA has thrown the operating authority of more than 120 of the largest facilities in Texas into legal limbo.

EPA has yet to explain how the state permitting rules should be changed to satisfy these newfound concerns, but it has now imperiously decreed the Texas rules fall short of federal requirements. The affected facilities are in full compliance with state-issued permits, but EPA views them in violation of the Clean Air Act and subject to enforcement.
http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2010/11/epas-destructive-regulation-
of-texas.html

One of any of a thousand examples, at least, but I'm not going to waste my time chasing down all this stuff you should know before coming to the defense of the EPA.

Quote:
Wrong again, just look up Freedom Works and who supports them and who they support. The TEA parties are not grassroots organizations. They are unknowing shills for powerful corporate interests. Your being trended on and used and don't even know it.

The TEA party IS undeniably a grass roots organization. You're not intentionally talking in circles over this issue, and I'm not going to participate any further. If powerful Left wing $ is going to attack America, then powerful conservative $ is more than welcome to fight back.

'Trended' on ? Really? Is that some sort of intentional pun or a typo. Fact is, YOU'RE the one being tread on, and you seem to love it so much, you can't get enough of it. Not real sure there's anything I can say that'll get you to see that.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 5:32 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The down grade came as a RESULT of the massive deficit. How you don't grasp that fact, or that you can't... is bewildering to me.

Have interest rates gone up yet? No, so it has not taken money out of pockets yet, do it could not have been slowing the economy. You lose, again.

EPA ? -

Quote:
Last July, EPA invalidated the 16-year old Texas Flexible Permitting Program. A strategic mechanism for achieving huge emissions reductions, the flexible permits impose tight emission caps for industrial facilities, while leaving plant operators some flexibility to innovate.

Now, purportedly because of concerns about specificity in the language of the permits, EPA has thrown the operating authority of more than 120 of the largest facilities in Texas into legal limbo.

EPA has yet to explain how the state permitting rules should be changed to satisfy these newfound concerns, but it has now imperiously decreed the Texas rules fall short of federal requirements. The affected facilities are in full compliance with state-issued permits, but EPA views them in violation of the Clean Air Act and subject to enforcement.
http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2010/11/epas-destructive-regulation-
of-texas.html

Try again, I asked for a regulation, not a EPA decision. Hell give me the regulation that the EPA views the state program as not being in line with. DO you even know how regulations work?

Quote:
One of any of a thousand examples, at least, but I'm not going to waste my time chasing down all this stuff you should know before coming to the defense of the EPA.

Well if you knew it you would not have to chase it down, would you. Proves you don't know what you are talking about.

Quote:
The TEA party IS undeniably a grass roots organization. You're not intentionally talking in circles over this issue, and I'm not going to participate any further. If powerful Left wing $ is going to attack America, then powerful conservative $ is more than welcome to fight back.

HAHAHAHAHAHA....I don't think I could laugh any harder at you. Nether side is attacking America, they are attaching each others views. Wrap that flag around you a little more.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 10:16 AM

BYTEMITE

AURAPTOR: Actually, I can comment on something similar in my neck of the woods. In the winter because of the way the valley restricts airflow, SLC tends to get socked in with a lot of bad air. We actually have the worst air in the nation some days along the Wasatch front, and the EPA has declared we have to find a way to reduce emissions.

But far from shutting down industry operations, rather it appears the standards are not enforceable anyway. We don't even have the smoggiest notion where to start.

Oh, and the industry standards are given in the Clean Air Act. Irony if I've ever heard it.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 10:41 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Another laborious task, which would fill a phone books worth of info, not worth my time.

Ah, one of my favorite oldschool chickenshit Raptard dodges.

Ask him for a SINGLE example, and knowing he can't give one - he'll claim there are just so many he can't be bothered to list them all, and so will not provide even a single one.

Classic douchebaggery from tha master.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 11:06 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Posted by Rappy:

You're not intentionally talking in circles over this issue, and I'm not going to participate any further.

Was that an unfortunate typo, or an inadvertent admission of your "debate" style?

You're refusing to participate any further because someone is intentionally NOT talking in circles?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 6:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"politicians all have total doublestandards"

**ALL** is an over broad generalization. SOME do not.

So, if I read it right, the majority consensus is that while the TP may have started out as a genuine people's movement, it's been taken over by the standard political process - where business interests (Koch brothers), the will to power of certain individuals (eg Palin), and the agenda of vested media interests (FAUX 'news'), are now being represented in a way that FAR outweighs the majority public will.

So the CURRENT teabagger politicians are at this point knowing, intentional willing minions of power interests.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 1:55 AM

KWICKO

Kiki: Yyyyyyup. You nailed it.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 5:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

That's about it in a nutshell, and very concisely put, Kiki. It's a shame, too, and I'm not curious what the concensus might be: On the debt ceiling (and Bush tax cuts, and everything else), are the Republicans using the Tea Party as their scapegoat, so they can achieve their own agenda while blaming the Tea Party for being the "hard liners", or are they actually so afraid of re-election and the Tea Party's power that they're being led around by the nose, being forced not to compromise even tho' they (ala John Boehner) actually WOULD?

Could be either, whatever your viewpoint, I'm just curious. But if it's the FORMER, then all the jabber by the MSM that they're afraid of and giving in to the Tea Party is spin...?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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