There's evil and then there's EVIL by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

There's evil and then there's EVIL

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Saturday, December 31, 2011 17:08
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VIEWED: 1642
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Thursday, December 29, 2011 8:02 PM

Sorry, don't want to overly techblog, but this was just too much:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2011/09/15/microsoft-rid
es-wave-of-android-device-fees-to-27/

Quote:
Microsoft Rides Wave Of Android Device Fees To $27

Microsoft announced that it signed patent licensing deals with two more Android device manufacturers, Acer and ViewSonic. Under the licensing agreements, both the companies will pay Microsoft a fixed licensing fee for each Android device that they ship.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/microsoft_news/231901481

Quote:
Microsoft claims both the Android mobile OS and Chrome, which runs netbooks and laptops, step on certain Windows patents.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, December 29, 2011 8:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

You know that whole bogus push for 'tort reform'? The one that claimed it was ALLLLLlll those FRIVOLOUS medical lawsuits filed by those NASTY GREEDY people that were driving up the cost of business and clogging up the courts?

A decade ago 90% of all lawsuits were businesses suing businesses. And now with 'intellectual property' it's gone up even more.

This is one of the pinnacle achievements of capitalism.

Welcome to the heaven of free enterprise.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 7:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
A decade ago 90% of all lawsuits were businesses suing businesses

Living in the most litigious state in the union, I'd point out that it goes much further than just copyright infringement...people and business sue at the drop of a hat, it sometimes seems.

Which in NO way has anything to do with the repeated efforts of some to put an end to people's abilities to sue for valid reasons (which is politically-motivated, as we know), but it HAS definitely gotten out of hand, in my opinion.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 11:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Sorry, I just don't see this as anything remotely as "evil".

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 30, 2011 1:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Of course not.

Yanno, I can predict with near 100% accuracy which way you will swing on almost any issue. Basically, you will side with greed and power any day, even over innovation and competition.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 2:08 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Bill Gates' daddy ran Planned Parenthood that genocided 100-million US citizens in return for $1-billion taxdollars.

As reward little Billy gets to drop out of college and be a billionaire, handed to him on a bloody golden platter.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 3:51 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Sorry, I just don't see this as anything remotely as "evil".

In the google sense of the word. It's interfering with the ability of people to do their damn jobs. Okay, it's an open source OS, and what's really ticking MSFT off is that it uses XML, but that's the nature of open source, you create something for the cummunity, it belongs to them, not to you. So, misfit has gone and made some bogus copyright claims, and undoubtedly had to bribe a few judges, customs officials, whomever, to bilk the planet.

Think of it this way. There's an android tablet in India selling for $35, with okay a govt subsidy, but the free market has competitors at $50 and $60. This is what the third world needs: free market producing goods at prices people can actual pay, so yay to all of them, right?

But no, suddenly there's a monster in redmond whose own product line has failed, and the point Forbes is making here is that microsoft is abandoning a profit model of making money on selling its own product in favor of leeching off of everyone else through litigation.

Forbes isn't exactly left wing loonyland.

Niki, good point, and PN also. I mean, you might be overstating the case, but Gates is a eugenicist, and the empire is largely built on stolen code.

But Niki et al, a point should be taken, particular actually this goes to Kiki:

When MSFT was stealing everyone's ideas and actual written code and taking it and putting it unmodified into products that were being sold under microsoft's own name, those companies had a right to sue (and sue they did, but Bill et co made sure it was tied up in court until said companies went under and misfit had its billions)

I know y'all don't want to admit it, but John has a point. This is much less about the free market and more about who someone's daddy was. This is a hereditary class society issue, fucking neo-aristocracy.

Talk about an entitlement mentality.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 4:06 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Your and my definition of " EVIL " is quite different.

"Greed " is subjective. Genocide via machete or WMD, THAT is " evil ".

I guess I prefer to not over use words or misapply them, least the true meaning becomes lost.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 30, 2011 4:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, basically what you are saying is... we have different definitions of the word "evil', but unless we use the word using YOUR definition we have lost the "true" meaning.... because YOUR meaning is the "true" meaning?

Just so we don't get confused and unintentionally misapply the word... How do you define evil?

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Friday, December 30, 2011 5:16 PM

BYTEMITE

I don't think I understand what this thread is about.

Though I do think despite his efforts at humanitarianism, Bill Gates has done some malicious things, and I also think some of his corporate policies overseas are very detrimental to the populations affected by it.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 5:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Microsoft CLAIMS that Android infringes on its patents. On that basis, it's extorting a fee from Android manufactures. As I understand it, it goes something like this - pay us a fee now, or we may come after you later in the courts for patent infringement. And while our CLAIMS may not true, we can destroy you with the legal fees it would cost you to fight us.

But that's nothing new for u-soft. It got where it is not by its greatness, but by the fact that in order to get product AT ALL, computer vendors had to agree to pay u-soft a software fee for EVERY computer sold. And since the vendors were paying the fee already, they pretty much needed to load u-soft on the computers and charge for it to break even.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 8:01 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, basically what you are saying is... we have different definitions of the word "evil', but unless we use the word using YOUR definition we have lost the "true" meaning.... because YOUR meaning is the "true" meaning?

Just so we don't get confused and unintentionally misapply the word... How do you define evil?

Calling dickish or aggressive business practices 'evil' only diminishes what 'evil' is suppose to describe.

Delving into hyperbole is what's going on here. Sorta like crying WOLF!, when there is none.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 8:08 PM

DREAMTROVE

Auraptor,

You're really missing it. Think of it as a homonym, evil is not evil.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Your and my definition of " EVIL " is quite different.

Not mine, Auraptor. Evil, in this context, does not mean what you think it means. It was coined by programmers at google as per what you might want to call "information evil" which is nothing to do with "real world evil" like terrorism.

Ergo, terrorists talking online is NOT information evil. It's not even related. It's just real world evil, happening online.

The meaning of "evil" in context has been posted several times, but in case you missed it, here it is again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil

There are other quotes by google execs that clarify, but the general idea is getting in between the user and what he wants to do, and by that, I don't mean "he wants to do terrorism so you stop him" and neither did they, they meant "he wants to enter something into a search bar and you teleport him to an ad site"

Christina Hendricks said the most evil company out there is Facebook, and I think she's right, but when she said it, she was using *this* definition of evil. She didn't mean they were terrorists.

Anyway, yes, there is greed here, but greed is not "evil" evil is interfering with the information stream, in this case, undermining and open source OS. I don't really care why they're doing it. If MSFT was doing it to fight terrorism, it would still make MSFT evil, and not the terrorists. Yes, the terrorists would be evil, but not this kind of evil. That would make them evil in the last millennia sense of the word.

Quote:

I guess I prefer to not over use words or misapply them, least the true meaning becomes lost.

Sometimes you are required to learn new words. This one is used all the time, it's not really unusual, but it is new, like "skanky"

Sig,

Rap is wrong, but you're wrong about why he is wrong. I think it was an honest mistake on his part, he had not met "Don't be evil" even though we just had a thread on it.

Byte,

Neither do I. I was still on my tech blog junkie thing posting news from the internet world. Pirate News brought in eugenics, and I seconded it not because I thought it was connected to evil (though this might have confused Rap) but because I thought that he was closer to understanding why Bill Gates was a success.

That said, there were some good thoughts up there on the nature of litigation out of control.

The thread I started, of course, was intended to be about the article, and the article in turn is about a corporation, microsoft, actually redefining its business model away from the free market and in favor litigation as a primary source of revenue (I kid you not.) Now, from a standpoint of the information flow and "don't be evil" I think it's pretty clear that when someone decides that their business model is going to be to sue everyone else for not buying their product is just standing directly in the way of free flow.

Curiously I also just read Apache's open source license which says you are free to use their products, modify them, distribute them, even sell them at a profit, but if you make any litigation against any party on intellectual property concerning any apache derived product the license is null and void.

People get this one, out there in infosphere.

Kiki gets this one. Oh, and BTW, on the web you need to use unicode, so have one of these, it's good for copy and pasting: µ

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 8:17 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I was wondering if anyone would get u for µ (mu) the symbol for 'micro'. But I like the double entendre of u.

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Friday, December 30, 2011 8:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

DT ,

I was just reading the subject line, and not connecting any dots to the whole google tie in, as it were. That, and I was mainly replying to Sig's comments, and not replying to your thread in general. The latter being the case, as you seem to figured out.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Calling dickish or aggressive business practices 'evil' only diminishes what 'evil' is suppose to describe. Delving into hyperbole is what's going on here. Sorta like crying WOLF!, when there is none.

Um, need I point out that this is NOT a definition? That you have merely reiterated the point that you made previously... that you don't feel that usoft engaged in "evil" practices?

Here, let me give you the start of a definition, as an example of what a definition should look like:

Evil is the causation of unnecessary or gratuitous suffering and death of humans, and (according to some people) unnecessary suffering and death of any sentient being.

So, for example, euthanizing a sick cat without creating stress or pain would not be evil, but torturing the same cat to death would be evil.

So, that's one definition of evil. Do you agree? If not, at what point(s) do you disagree?

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Sig - already made my point. Don't see the need to go over this any more.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 5:54 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
DT ,

I was just reading the subject line, and not connecting any dots to the whole google tie in, as it were. That, and I was mainly replying to Sig's comments, and not replying to your thread in general. The latter being the case, as you seem to figured out.

Auraptor,

My apologies. I had initially made this as a post to the other thread, and then had copied it over to make a separate thread, and I see that I failed to copy or link back to the google evil thread.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 7:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Sig - already made my point. Don't see the need to go over this any more.

Well, I think it's an unexplained point, particularly as you seem to think that only your opinion is the one true opinion.

But I know why you're backing out on this one... because, as usual, you have not actually thought this through. And you're afraid that if you write a definition, then the edges of that definition... what would be considered evil, and what would not be evil... would be explored. Would letting a sick cat die in agony be more or less evil than euthanasia? How personally involved does one have to be? What about if you didn't torture the cat yourself, but paid some kid to do it? Does it have to involve action, or can one be evil by inaction? What if you let it starve to death? Does it have to be bloody and violent, like genocide by machete? But what if you let a child starve to death that was under your control... yanno, locked him or her in a room and walked away, and threw away the key? Or refused to treat a child dying of wounds? Or refused to treat a child dying of illness?

The questions... they would be fascinating.

And then perhaps you would find that your first-blush reaction would lead you into something of a quagmire, where you might have to consider that stealing from an entire nation and causing people to starve to death, or invading a nation which posed no serious threat and killing hundreds of thousands of people might actually make it into the "evil" scale.... possibly even as evil as genocide by machete.

I find it puzzling that anyone who can make it onto the internet and have enough wherewithal to post grammatically-correct sentences can be so completely and utterly devoid of questions, of logic, of the spark or even the motivation towards insight. Do you never question what you hear, or question what you think?

Just test the boundaries of where you react, and where you don't, and ask yourself "WHY?" What is the difference? How can I explain it to myself? Does it make sense?

So start with the definition of evil. Think it through. What is it? Think of all of the things you have thought were "evil". What do they have in common? Then think of things that you do NOT think are "evil". What are the differences? Is it related to action or inaction? Is it related to violence or to something quieter? It is related to direct involvement? Is it related to motivation or result? Or is it something which threatens you and people like you, but does not apply to others? This is not an easy question, philosophers have been struggling over this for millenia. But it's important to ask YOURSELF this question, so you can develop your own answer. If at some point you DO come up with a definition, I would appreciate you telling us.

But I guess, until then, I will take your opinion of what is and isn't evil... and especially your opinion that yours is the one true opinion... with a big dose skepticism.

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 9:38 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I believe there are many degrees of evil behavior, and there also are fine lines that separate evil from good. I think of Jessica Lange's father in the film Music Box. An un-speakable evil monster in an environment that created and promoted that behavior, and later a warm loving father and grandfather in a different time and environment.

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 10:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Sig, does the term 'overkill' even mean anything to you, at all ?

I thought DT meant 1 thing, when he actually meant something quite different. I went with my initial response, as it was unclear ( not having followed the other thread ) as to the context of what was meant by 'evil'.

I made my view on the matter abundantly clear, and yet you, for some inexplicable reason, want to continue to pummel the dead horse.

Good grief, just let it go. You'll feel lots better. And if you don't, everyone else sure as hell will.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 5:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Dear lord, please make rappy's brain work. Amen.

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