REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Zimmerman video

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 17:54
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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:19 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just saw a video of Zimmerman getting out of the car at the police station. He's handcuffed, yet nobody helped him out of the car. He does not have a MARK ON HIM. No blood on his shirt (like if he'd shot someone up close or his nose bled on it); can't see his face closely enough to determine and a bloody nose could have been cleaned up. But the back of his head is CLEARLY visible throughout, and there's nothing there. Nor am I able to make out any grass stain on the back of his shirt.

At the time"
Quote:

Zimmerman said Martin pinned him to the ground and began slamming his head into the sidewalk. The police report described Zimmerman's back as wet and covered with grass, as though he had been lying on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of his head, the police report said.
"Slamming his head into the sidewalk"--how can you have your head repeatedly slammed into a SIDEWALK without something showing?

Quote:

Explosive video reveals that George Zimmerman appeared uninjured when he arrived at a Florida police station the night he shot Trayvon Martin — his nose is not broken or bleeding and the back of his head is unmarked by grass or bruising.

The Sanford, Fla., Police Department says it did not arrest the Hispanic neighborhood watchman who killed the unarmed black teenager because Trayvon was pounding his head into the ground and Zimmerman shot in self-defense.

The security camera footage shot inside the police station directly contradicts a police report written that night.

“I could observe his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground,” Officer Timothy Smith wrote after the shooting Feb. 26.

“Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head,” the officer wrote.

The high-quality security footage obtained by ABC News shows clearly that Zimmerman’s red and black fleece jacket is unmarred, the back of his close-cropped head is clean and his nose is not bloody.

He walks easily and appears to be in no pain.

His hands are cuffed behind him, but is able to get out on his own. He appears fitter and lighter than he did in his now-famous pudgy 2005 mug shot.

Police appear to treat him casually, chatting easily with him. More at http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-shooter-g
eorge-zimmerman-appears-uninjured-police-video-night-shooting-article-1.1052433
at http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16
024475


And,
Quote:

The funeral director who prepared Trayvon Martin’s body for burial told HLN’s Nancy Grace Wednesday that he did not see any cuts or bruises on the teen’s hands that would have been indicative of a struggle with George Zimmerman.

“As for his hands and knuckles, I didn’t see any evidence he had been fighting anybody,” Kurtz said.

While Kurtz is not a forensics expert, the funeral director said he has handled the bodies of many homicide victims in his career. This case in particular affected him as he learned more about what happened to Trayvon Martin and how the case was handled. http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03/28/funeral-director-saw-no-signs-
fight-trayvons-hands
]
Then there's also this:
Quote:

New information now contradicts Sanford police chief’s initial claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to arrest George Zimmerman in the murder of 17-year old Trayvon Martin.

Angela Corey, a special prosecutor assigned to case by Gov. Rick Scott, told CBS4 news partner The Miami Herald that early in the investigation police requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s Office.

An incident report on the shooting classified it as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

Corey said police did file a capias (a request that charges be filed) with the State Attorney’s Office.

The Seminole County State Attorney’s Office declined to comment on whether its prosecutors ever recommended against filing charges. More at http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/28/sanford-police-originally-wanted-
to-charge-zimmerman/
, regarding the 13-year-old supposed witness who saw Martin beating Zimmerman,
Quote:

The mother of a 13-year-old witness in the slaying of Trayvon Martin said Wednesday that police waited five days before seeking to question her son and then told her they didn't believe the shooting was self-defense.

The shooting occurred Feb. 26, and Brown's son called 911 to report it at the time. But police didn't seek to question him until March 2, Brown said. She wasn't home, so they returned March 5, meaning eight days passed before police actually questioned a key eyewitness.

"I was waiting every day for someone to come knocking on the door," she said.

Once they did, Brown alleged, police tried to lead her son to agree to certain assertions, such as the race of the person on the ground and what he was wearing. But the boy stuck to his insistence that he couldn't make out either because it was too dark.

Brown alleged that the lead investigator "told me this was not self-defense," saying she should "read between the lines" because "this was racial stereotyping."

She said the investigator said he had children of his own "and seemed angered by it," saying, "I need to prove this was not self-defense."

Brown's son was walking the family dog when he saw the person lying on the ground, she said. He went to help, but the dog escaped from its leash, so he went chasing after it rather than rushing to the person, she said.

Police have confirmed that Zimmerman told them that Martin knocked him to the ground and began beating him. At no time did her son see anyone beating anyone, Brown said.

In the days since the shooting, the boy has reflected on whether he might have been able to help or even save Martin had he not tried to retrieve his dog, she said.

"Unfortunately, he has a lot of guilt about that," she said. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909475-witness-mom-says
-police-told-her-trayvon-martin-shooting-wasnt-self-defense
]

Then there's this:
Quote:

A source with knowledge of the investigation into the shooting of Trayvon Martin tells theGrio that it was then Sanford police chief Bill Lee, along with Capt. Robert O'Connor, the investigations supervisor, who made the decision to release George Zimmerman on the night of February 26th, after consulting with State Attorney Norman Wolfinger -- in person.

Wolfinger's presence at the scene or at the police department in the night of a shooting would be unusual, according to the source. On a typical case, police contact the state attorney's office and speak with an on duty assistant state attorney; they either discuss the matter by phone or the on duty assistant state attorney comes to the crime scene - but rarely the state attorney him or herself.

ABC News reported Tuesday that, after questioning Zimmerman at the Sanford police station, homicide investigator Chris Serino filed an affidavit February 26th stating that he did not believe Zimmerman's account of the shooting. He recommended charging the 28-year-old with manslaughter, but was advised by Wolfinger's office that there wasn't enough evidence to secure a conviction. Zimmerman was subsequently released.

What was not stated was that, on the night of the killing, Wolfinger may have traveled to either the scene of the shooting or the police station to discuss the case with Lee and O'Connor, who was briefly named interim "co-chief" with the current acting chief, Darren Scott, when Lee announced he would step down temporarily last week.

In this case, the source says investigators spoke to the on-duty assistant state attorney -- an unidentified woman -- who did not come to the scene, but that Wolfinger did.

And according to the source, after a conversation between Lee, O'Connor and Wolfinger, the decision was made to "cut Zimmerman loose." http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/source-sanford-police-c
hief-state-attorney-made-zimmerman-no-charge-call-in-person.php#46882946
]

So where do we go NOW? As I said before, there's just too much that doesn't make sense, to me.

ETA:
Quote:

Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating “he was unconvinced Zimmerman’s version of events.” As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman’s credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored? http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/28/454206/trayvon-martin-5-un
answered-questions/
original police report has been relased, and the description reads: "Homicide-Neglig Mansl-Unnecessary Killing to Prevent Unlawful Act". http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/sanford_files/PoliceRep
orts.pdf

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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:53 PM

HERO


When I was a kid I fell back and slammed my head hard and had a mild concussion. No blood or visible marks, just a big lump.

It's possible they had him change clothes so they could collect his at the scene for evidence.

He was treated for a broen nose. They would have done all the medical treatment prior to officially taking him into custody, otherwise the city is responsible for the costs of his treatment. HIPPA will delay release of those records until Zimmerman approves which his lawyers won't do until necessary if at all. Better to keep those as an ace for trial.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:03 PM

HERO


I've gotten these calls as Prosecutor. Given these facts and a very permissive Florida law, I doubt I authorize a charge without further investigation.

Having physical evidence and a witness supporting Zimmerman's account I'd want detectives to get more information.

1. Pulll the 911 calls.
2. Interview and search for other witnesses, like other neighbors and this person the dead kid was on the phone with.
3. Mediical examiner's report.
4. All the physical evidence.
5. Suspect and decedent's backgrounds.

I note for the record that Zimerman was not acting illegally by following this kid. 911 advised him not to, but did not and can not order him not to.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:08 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, he didn't change clothes. He was still wearing the red jacket he had on at the scene. And no, he was supposedly taken directly to the police department as he REFUSED ANY medical treatment. There's been mention (I've read so much I can't remember what I read where) of the paramedics being at the scene when he refused treatment, and I asked if there's any record of paramedics being called, but haven't found any. Supposedly he got treatment the next day for a BROKEN NOSE, but we haven't heard any evidence of that treatment; possibly as you say they're withholding that, but with all the leaks and stuff, don't you think someone at the hospital would have popped up by now who saw him there with a broken nose? And who doesn't get treatment for a broken nose until the next day? AND, if he had the injuries he said, why did he refuse treatment at the time? Do you really think someone with a broken nose would look like he does in the video? And he didn't just hit his head, he claims Trayvon "slammed" his head into the sidewalk repeatedly. The police also claimed he had a "gash" in his head, along with a cut lip and bleeding nose. How did ALL of those disappear?

One thing that's been mentioned is that the police neither took photos of the crime scene nor handled him with those plastic gloves, two things usually done and which might have caused evidence on his jacket to be smeared. The police also claimed the back of his jacket had grass stains and was wet, supposedly confirming his story that Trayvon had decked him. So where are the grass stains? I think we've pretty much accepted that the whole thing was handled badly by the police at the time, so that's no surprise. So if he'd had a bloody nose or shot someone up close as he claimed, wouldn't there be blood SOMEWHERE?

Interestingly, I heard numerous times about his "refusing treatment at the scene", yet now
Quote:

Initial police reports said Zimmerman was treated at the scene of the shooting for bleeding on the back of his head and on or from his nose.

His lawyer, Craig Sonner, has claimed Zimmerman suffered a gash on the back of his head that would have required stitches, though he says Zimmerman did not receive treatment until it had already begun to heal. And leaks to the Orlando Sentinel have suggested that Zimmerman's nose was broken.

Zimmerman supporter Joe Oliver, who worked with him at a mortgage security firm, has said Zimmerman told him Trayvon punched him in the face, breaking his nose, then when he fell to the ground, began bashing his head into the sidewalk, before Zimmerman shot him, Oliver says, in self-defense.

The surveillance tape does not show Zimmerman with a visibly broken or even bloody nose. http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-case-sur
veillance-footage-shows-zimmerman-had-no-blood-bruises-on-him.php
is the gash that would have required stitches?

I find it fascinating that some are so insistent on finding ways to explain the inconsistencies. Simply the statement by his attorney that he received a gash to the back of his head, all by itself, contradicts this surveillance footage of a casual Zimmerman walking around with NO evidence whatsoever of any cut to the back of his head. Leaving out absolutely everything else, doesn't that make anyone wonder? Weird.

So much is screwy about this whole thing, I don't see how anyone can buy Zimmerman's story that he was attacked, had his head slammed into the sidewalk repeatedly, causing a gash, had a broken nose, etc., etc., after seeing this surveillance video. Strains the brain, it does...





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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:59 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ah, I thought maybe I was mistaken, but there it is:
Quote:

Sonner told CNN that Zimmerman was injured on the night of the killing.

"I believe that his nose was broken; he sustained injury to his nose and on the back of his head he sustained a cut that was serious enough it probably should have had stitches," Sonner said. http://www.kmbc.com/news/30745375/detail.html#ixzz1qRLiRvgp] His attorney, Craig Sonner, finally spoke out to Anderson Cooper last night, and had few answers but one accusation– his client has a broken nose and a laceration on his skull, and that was “an injury done by Trayvon Martin.”

Sonner noted Zimmerman’s “nose was broken, he sustained injury to his nose and on the back of his head; he sustained a cut that was serious enough to merit stitches, but it took too long to get to the hospital.” Cooper asked how Zimmerman’s nose broke– “an injury done by Trayvon Martin.” http://www.mediaite.com/tv/zimmerman-attorney-to-anderson-cooper-trayv
on-martin-broke-my-clients-nose/
said the gash on the back of Zimmerman's head probably was serious enough for stitches, but he waited too long for treatment so the wound was already healing. http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-invest
igator-asked-for-manslaughter-charge-for-zimmerman/#xdm_e=http%3A%2F%2Flatino.foxnews.com&xdm_c=default1727&xdm_p=1&
refused to go to the doctor at the scene although paramedics arrived to treat him) HE SAID HE DID NOT NEED A DOCTOR. http://theview.abc.go.com/forum/time-eat-crow-zimmerman-not-injured-vi
deo
, Zimmerman had a bloody/broken nose, but, he refused treatment and, apparently, the police took no photos of his injuries.

That's a good point; why wouldn't they have taken pictures of his injuries at the scene? Wouldn't that be usual protocol?
Quote:

Zimmerman was released shortly after the Sanford P.D. got there, he refused treatment for a broken nose at the local hospital. http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/did-orange-county-magistrate-rob
ert-zimmerman-pull-the-strings-for-george-zimmerman-on-the-domestic/question-2546971/?page=1&postId=80784261#post_80784261
I ask again; where's the gash? I would assume the description of the "gash" came from Zimmerman to his attorney, so the attorney didn't actually "see" it, but the police saying it was consistent with the evidence...?



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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:02 PM

OONJERAH



Fishy and fishier.

Now instead of a murderer, looks like a murderer with PD accomplices.
If this was a novel, I wouldn't believe it.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Boy, you got THAT right! Looks to me like an almost unbelievable attempt at cover-up and covering ass on both the PD's and Zimmerman's part.

NOW they're talking about the people being involved right at that time (which is unusual, especially as it was after dinner on a Sunday night) hint at Zimmerman's FATHER having been involved...?!

Curiouser and curiouser...



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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:32 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Supposedly he got treatment the next day for a BROKEN NOSE ..."

We'll see.

AFAIK getting treatment isn't like buying Burger King. You don't get to have it your way. If you go in with a traumatic injury for treatment they examine you for other injuries you might have, and document them. And if they can't treat those other injuries or you refuse treatment for them, they document that too. A broken nose would be consistent with neck injury and head injury, among other things, and they would look for that. A fight weould be consistent with hand injuries and they would look for that, too. And then document all their findings. IF there is a medical record of treatment by a doctor THEN there should exist a record of any other injuries he claims he had.*

But unless there is a record fairly close in time then I can't see how it would be useful. B/c it then becomes a question of whether or not those injuries were gotten when, where and how the person claims.

Fortunately, this is all out of the hands of the local PD.

*PS They do these examinations for injuries b/c they don't want to treat the cut chin and miss the brain bleed for example. That would not be cool to have a neatly stitched cut come in later to the ER as a brain-dead collapse.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:36 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hero said
Quote:

HIPPA will delay release of those records until Zimmerman approves which his lawyers won't do until necessary if at all. Better to keep those as an ace for trial.
I assume any medical records would be his choice whether to release or not. His attorney has said he refused treatment at the scene and wouldn't go to the hospital, and when he DID go for treatment of the supposed head injury, it was too late because it had healed by then. But the night of the murder, if he had a head injury, refused treatment, and it was serious enough to "need stitches", why doesn't it show up on the video, is my question (and many others', as it's all over the internet and news now).

Jezus, just looked at the time! Not usually here at night, popped in to put up the video and got involved with looking stuff up. I'm outta here! Check the video and see what you guys think, I'll see what you have to say tomorrow.

ETA: I just noticed your last remark. I agree! They've screwed it up so bad at this point that I wouldn't want them handling ANYTHING. I still wonder; if he had injuries, why didn't they photograph them at the scene or shortly thereafter? They REALLY screwed the pooch on this one!



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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Better to keep those as an ace for trial."

From what I know of gathering medical evidence for criminal cases, it has to be documented by police (photographs, testimony), and gathered by experts, either forensics experts or doctors and nurses in the case of collecting rape evidence. It has to have a chain of custody attached or a chain of people able to testify to its provenance. Otherwise, it has little weight as evidence.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:53 PM

OONJERAH



Feb 26th, when Trayvon was killed, was a Sunday.
Maybe it was the cops' night off.

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Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Or maybe there was a fresh batch of donuts at the shop.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:33 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
When I was a kid I fell back and slammed my head hard and had a mild concussion. No blood or visible marks, just a big lump.

It's possible they had him change clothes so they could collect his at the scene for evidence.

He was treated for a broen nose. They would have done all the medical treatment prior to officially taking him into custody, otherwise the city is responsible for the costs of his treatment. HIPPA will delay release of those records until Zimmerman approves which his lawyers won't do until necessary if at all. Better to keep those as an ace for trial.



There is no way his nose was broken. You break your nose there is going to be blood, enough that he would have it on his shirt. His face would be swollen, and unless he knew better than to try and blow his nose to clear it, his eyes would be swollen enough to be visable.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:05 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Unless EMS cleaned him up at the scene. We do that.

If he had a broken nose, with the application of gauze it might not be bleeding copiously. The injury to the back of his head could be hematoma... in which case, the pooling of blood would only be beginning to form.

I would be interested to see the reports on this. If he did have a broken nose, it would have to be reset at the hospital, in which case the medical records would be on file.

HIPPA laws do not allow those records to be released, unless in accordance with a criminal investigation.

The extent of his injuries could help to either validate or cast doubt on, his version of events.

But in no way to they completely prove or disprove his innocence.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Can EMS magicly take way swelling as well?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:45 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Depending on the extent of his injuries (and if you look at the video, you can see a laceration on the back of his head), you can clean it out with saline, then apply a cold-press.

But again, we dont have any clue what his injuries actually were without the paperwork.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 29, 2012 3:50 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Better to keep those as an ace for trial."

From what I know of gathering medical evidence for criminal cases, it has to be documented by police (photographs, testimony), and gathered by experts, either forensics experts or doctors and nurses in the case of collecting rape evidence. It has to have a chain of custody attached or a chain of people able to testify to its provenance. Otherwise, it has little weight as evidence.


That's true for State evidence. Also true for physical evidence.

But we're talking about eyewitness accounts and medical tests by doctors, nurses, and paramedics. They can't talk about any of that without permission. And those folks are HIPPA fanatics cause the consequences of violation are dire.

In Ohio there is a way for the State to get that information but then the State becomes bound.

You might see leaks as this goes on, but I doubt it and without the official records there is no way to confirm.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 3:52 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Can EMS magicly take way swelling as well?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.


I've seen a lot of beatings, the injuries are often not visible until hours later.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 5:56 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
There is no way his nose was broken. You break your nose there is going to be blood, enough that he would have it on his shirt. His face would be swollen, and unless he knew better than to try and blow his nose to clear it, his eyes would be swollen enough to be visable.



I had my nose broken in school. Ran into a guy playing basketball, which knocked me out and I fell face-first on the floor. There was no blood and little swelling. Just my nose pointing to the right. My doctor pushed it back straight with his thumb, and straightened out the nasal septum with a tongue depresser. Only reminder now is a little ridge where the bone grew back together.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, let's see.

As to gathering medical evidence, photos, etc., none of that was done apparently, because they decided not to charge him. So any medical evidence isn't available to the police unless they charge him, right?

As to being a Sunday; the two people involved were off, yes, but neither one is usually called to a routine homicide. It's the fact that they WERE pulled away from their homes on a Sunday evening, when usually lower-tier police would have handled it, that's unusual. That's where speculation on his dad having exerted influence or something is coming in (NOT that I buy that, I'm just playing "detective" with this thing).

I agree with Nick; if he had a broken nose, there's no way it could have been completely cleaned up so that there was NO blood on his clothing whatsoever. He was supposedly wrestling with Trayvon on the ground. If he got his nose broken that way, or before he hit the ground, there would be SOME blood spatter, surely. Didn't have to bleed "copiously". I can't conceive of someone in a fight getting a broken nose (supposedly with the very first blow, which knocked him to the ground, I believe?) having no blood on him whatsoever.

Also, how far away from Trayvon was he when he shot? If at close range--I HEARD he said he got his arms free and his gun out of the holster and shot Martin, which would put him still on the bottom in close range; how could he avoid blood spatter?

I'm not knowledgeable on medical stuff, but I saw no evidence of a broken nose or swelling, etc., and I've seen a broken nose or too. It was supposedly FOUR HOURS before they left the crime scene and got to the police station, by then even if he was cleaned up, surely something would show.

As to his head being repeatedly slammed into the sidewalk, remember his attorney said repeatedly (or, more appropriately, "he told his attorney") that he had a "gash" on the back of his head which probably should have had stitches. I don't see any laceration on the back of his head in the video, and I looked closely, since the back of his head is the clearest thing visible throughout the video. I only see a bald spot. The officer examines him at first--looks to me like he was checking his jacket pockets, and at one point looks at the back of his head, but I can't see any laceration or gash big enough to need stitches. I'll look again.

Since it was "four hours" before they took him to the police station, the idea that injuries might not be visible until hours later doesn't apply; obviously bleeding would have stopped. It's the "gash" that confuses me, and the lack of any evidence of bleeding on his clothes. Today the attorney said
Quote:

Zimmerman had been "cleaned-up" and received first aid in the four hours between the incident and Zimmerman's videotaped arrival at the police station. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10915887-police-video-sho
ws-george-zimmerman-shortly-after-trayvon-martin-shooting
sense. But NO evidence of blood on his clothes or a gash on his head? The strains credibility for me.

Obviously it doesn't make him guilty, but it makes his account of events questionable. He could have embellished after the fact out of fear of prosecution or something. Given I DO think the police were culpable of reeeely sloppy work and they're being questioned so much now, THEY could have embellished to cover their asses. It's interesting to follow this as things emerge; I think this video is pretty damming regarding his version of events, and I hope they DO get any medical records they can. The attorney said repeatedly he did not go to hospital to get the gash looked at until it was too late and by then it had healed. If he'd been right about it "should have needed stitches", wouldn't there be at least a scar or something left by now? Have the police contacted him since this started coming out...oh, wait, they're saying there was a gash too. If nobody checks him out, then by the time this comes to trial there WILL be no evidence of injuries, won't there?

If there was such a big "gash", wouldn't the EMTs have put some kind of bandage on it which would be visible on the video? Supposedly it was big enough to need stitches...surely EMTs wouldn't have wanted that to go uncovered and unprotected?

What about the lead investigator wanting to arrest him initially, and being overruled by higher ups? They say they didn't arrest him because there wasn't enough evidence; I think they were very wrong not to take photos at the scene, collect evidence, etc., etc., because most of anything there might have been would be gone now. So all that's left is medical evidence, but he refused to go to hospital that night, and supposedly didn't go for treatment until the gash was healed. I read somewhere that the attorney said he went to hospital "the next day" for the broken nose; if Kiki is correct, if you get treatment, they examine you for other injuries. If he went to hospital the next day for the nose, how could the gash have gone untreated for so long it was healing? That seems contradictory.

On the other hand, according to his account, Trayvon knocked him down then pinned Zimmerman's arms with his knees, so there might well be no evidence of a fight on Zimmerman's hands. Too late to know anyway, because any small cuts or bruises he received struggling free and getting up are long gone.

All this is very interesting; we'll see how it plays out.



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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:27 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Head wounds usually leak a lot, this is true.

However, cleaning it out and applying a coagulation agent would have prevented it from bleeding further.

Also, as to his clothing: If he was in his neighborhood, and his clothes were torn and bloody, the cops might have taken him home to change.

From all accounts, Z was not fighting, or arguing with the cops. They could have done him (and themselves) a favor. Trust me, you don't want to have to wear blue gloves for hours if you don't have to.

Lots of what-might-be in this.

Was this a good-shoot? Replace Z, with a cop... and 911 with dispatch...

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 29, 2012 8:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

the cops might have taken him home to change.
As I keep saying, they did NOT. He is still wearing the red jacket he was wearing at the scene, as witnesses have described, and there is absolutely no indication that they took him anywhere but from the scene to the police department. It's immaterial anyway, given he is still clearly wearing the same red jacket he was at the scene.

As to head wounds bleeding; of course the EMTs could have treated it to stop the bleeding. That has nothing whatsoever to do with it bleeding initially, nor does it have anything to do with his nose bleeding. The cops didn't arrive instantaneously...just in the time it took him to get up (if he did) and/or shoot Martin from the ground, he would have gotten blood ON HIM, period. His claim is that he wrestled his ARMS free to get his gun and shot Trayvon. Ergo, according to him, he was UNDER Trayvon and shot him at close range. How he could avoid ANY blood getting on him in that circumstance, not even to mention a broken nose (which supposedly he was pinned down on the ground when he got it) simply defies explanation.

Even more fascinating than the case itself and things coming out a little at a time is the contortions some are going through to insist that somehow Zimmerman went through everything he has claimed without showing any signs of injury or, more importantly, any blood whatsoever on his clothing. Would be interesting to understand what the motivation is for twisting and turning to find ways of explaining away the inconsistencies.



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Thursday, March 29, 2012 8:16 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"As I keep saying, they did NOT. He is still wearing the red jacket he was wearing at the scene, as witnesses have described, and there is absolutely no indication that they took him anywhere but from the scene to the police department. It's immaterial anyway, given he is still clearly wearing the same red jacket he was at the scene."

How many jackets do you own?

Me? I have one or two. So they bust him on this, he changes his shirt, throws on his jacket and they book him.

You are starting to grasp at straws.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 29, 2012 8:49 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
I've seen a lot of beatings, the injuries are often not visible until hours later.


*snort*
Amateurs.

-F

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 8:55 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I've seen a lot of beatings, the injuries are often not visible until hours later."

"*snort*
Amateurs."

Actually, thats not inaccurate.

Head trauma doesn't always show up at scene.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

How many jackets do you own?
Desperate, are we?
Quote:

Head trauma doesn't always show up at scene.
Gashes that "should have stitches" sure as hell do.

Keep reaching, it's amusing to watch.





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Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:54 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Gashes that "should have stitches" sure as hell do.

Keep reaching, it's amusing to watch.



Why watch? You know the truth. I'm expecting you any day now to grab a rope, round up some Black Panthers, head for Florida, and have yourself a good old-fashoned lynching.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:59 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Gashes that "should have stitches" sure as hell do.

Keep reaching, it's amusing to watch.



Why watch? You know the truth. I'm expecting you any day now to grab a rope, round up some Black Panthers, head for Florida, and have yourself a good old-fashoned lynching.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Always count on a rightie to go petty.

Spoon!

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 10:37 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Always count on a rightie to go petty.


When they could be a leftie and start that way?

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 10:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Spoon!



Hey. You and Niki can spoon all you want. She'll still be prejudging the Zimmerman case based on her stereotypes.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 11:07 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Hey. You and Niki can spoon all you want. She'll still be prejudging the Zimmerman case based on her stereotypes."


HA!

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 29, 2012 11:10 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"As I keep saying, they did NOT. He is still wearing the red jacket he was wearing at the scene, as witnesses have described, and there is absolutely no indication that they took him anywhere but from the scene to the police department. It's immaterial anyway, given he is still clearly wearing the same red jacket he was at the scene."

How many jackets do you own?

Me? I have one or two. So they bust him on this, he changes his shirt, throws on his jacket and they book him.

I'm starting to grasp at straws.



I fixed that for you buddy!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 11:24 AM

STORYMARK


I have a couple jackets myself. What I don't have are two of the same jacket.

Maybe Im grasping at straws though...LOL.

Spoon!

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 11:26 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Spoon!



Hey. You and Niki can spoon all you want. She'll still be prejudging the Zimmerman case based on her stereotypes.



And Ive per-judged... where now?

Oh, right, facts are irrelevant when you have ideology.

Spoon!

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 12:35 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Wulf: "Also, as to his clothing: If he was in his neighborhood,
and his clothes were torn and bloody, the cops might have taken him
home to change."

Of course they did ... and knowingly destroyed evidence.

Cops refused to do their job, 'cept the one investigator, and he was
overruled. Apparently, most of the relevant information about Zimmerman
was never gathered (sobriety?). No pictures of the scene. Can I hope
that the autopsy on Martin was done right?

Criminal negligence to the Max!




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Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



After confronting Trayvon, and possibly an exchange of words, Zimmerman was apparently attacked from behind, then jumped on by Trayvon. Zimmerman then pulled his gun, and fired, in self defense. He likely wasn't prepared to deal w/ physical confrontation, and over reacted.

That's how I'm seeing this now.

Tragic, all the way around. At most, he may get charged w/ manslaughter. It won't be enough for the race baiting flame throwers, though. They're making this case far worse, by the day.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:58 PM

OONJERAH



Zimmerman police video in Trayvon case raises questions
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-29/zimmerman-trayvon
-police-video/53874316/1


"Forensic video expert David Notowitz, founder of the National
Center for Audio and Video Forensics, says much work remains
before investigators can draw evidence from the video.

"Right now, people are jumping to frantic conclusions," he said.
"Mr. Zimmerman may be totally innocent. He may have reason for
doing what he did. He also might be guilty. But the evidence is
not there yet."


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Thursday, March 29, 2012 3:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Wasn't getting any sound from the video in the above link.

The clips were edited, as well as being surveillance cams, and not the clearest images.

Wasn't GZ treated by paramedics before coming to the station ?

In another version of the police video, it's apparent that one of the officers does stare intently at the back of GZ's head, at what looks to be a gash on the upper right hand side. Beyond that, it's hard to tell what, if any injuries GZ may have suffered.

Over all, I'd say the video evidence is inconclusive, either way.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, March 29, 2012 3:21 PM

HERO


You may not see blood on a red jacket..

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:21 PM

OONJERAH


Or a white T-shirt, for that matter.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Zimmerman was apparently attacked from behind ..."

And this little gem is based on ... what? Zimmerman's say-so? Too bad Martin isn't around to give his story.

The facts remain - an armed large man shot an unarmed and much smaller teenager who was doing something as innocent as coming home with snacks. For sure that teen didn't jump Zimmerman out of the blue leading to defense from attack.

The entire situation was created and fostered by Zimmerman, and by him alone.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Zimmerman was apparently attacked from behind ..."

And this little gem is based on ... what? Zimmerman's say-so? Too bad Martin isn't around to give his story.

The facts remain - an armed large man shot an unarmed and much smaller teenager who was doing something as innocent as coming home with snacks. For sure that teen didn't jump Zimmerman out of the blue leading to defense from attack.

The entire situation was created and fostered by Zimmerman, and by him alone.



Not if Trayvon jumped him from behind, and started punching him. Hard to say it was caused by Zimmerman 'alone'.

Trayvon stood * 6', ( though I've heard some say 6'3"... ) He wasn't " much smaller " than Zimmerman , who stands @ 5'9". GZ might have had 100lbs on him, but things even out a bit when one is being attacked from behind.

Finally, the 'gem' is based on the evidence we have to date, as reported. If the evidence is solid, then that favors one version. If not, then that favors another.

And no one has ever suggested that TM jumped GZ " out of the blue ". It's fairly well established, that by his own admission, GZ got out of his truck, and followed TM on foot. What took place afterwards, needs to be figured out. There is the testimony of GZ, the eye witnesses, and the physical evidence.


* http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/.a/6a00d83451b4ba69e2016303574e44970d-
pi


" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


In the interview, she said Trayvon Martin told her that he was being followed.

"She says: 'Run.' He says, 'I'm not going to run, I'm just going to walk fast,'" Crump said, quoting the girl.

The girl later heard Martin say, "Why are you following me?" Another man asked, "What are you doing around here?" Crump said.

After Martin encountered Zimmerman, the girl thinks she heard a scuffle "because his voice changes like something interrupted his speech," Crump said. The phone call ended before the girl heard any gunshots.

Martin's parents said their son made the pleas for help that witnesses heard.



This makes it REALLY unlikely that Zimmerman was jumped from behind in a surprise attack. Zimmerman's misleading story to the contrary. No one SAW Martin 'jump' Zimmerman. All of that is simply the word of Zimmerman. But knowing your tenuous relation to facts, I don't expect you'll know the difference between story and evidence.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 5:29 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


...and the fact is she could be lying just as easy as Zimmerman. Right now no one knows what happened for sure. Neither story makes complete sense.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 5:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:



This makes it REALLY unlikely that Zimmerman was jumped from behind in a surprise attack. Zimmerman's misleading story to the contrary. No one SAW Martin 'jump' Zimmerman. All of that is simply the word of Zimmerman. But knowing your tenuous relation to facts, I don't expect you'll know the difference between story and evidence.



Actually, there was an impartial witness, who claims he saw TM on top of GZ,and that it was GZ who was calling or help.

So , at the very least, we have conflicting stories, and 2 stories which line up, are told by 2 individuals who were actually there.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:25 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And Ive per-judged... where now?

Oh, right, facts are irrelevant when you have ideology.


Geezer did not say that you prejudged anything. Unless you and Niki2 are one and the same. And if that is the case, then my apologies.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"who claims he saw TM on top of GZ"

A woman who saw the opposite, and NOBODY who saw who went after who.

Except that phone call, which makes it VERY unlikely Zimmerman was telling the truth.


The facts remain - an armed large man shot an unarmed and much smaller teenager who was doing something as innocent as coming home with snacks. For sure that teen didn't jump Zimmerman out of the blue leading to defense from attack.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"...and the fact is she could be lying just as easy as Zimmerman."

Except she's more credible. The investigators found out within 2-3 hours (maybe even earlier) that Martin was on the phone with her and went to question her. She had no knowledge of the situation, who had said what to the police already, nor did she have anyone to coach her into fabricating a story that made sense. She was relaying what she heard and, without foreknowledge of the physical layout, the proposed sequence of events, or the statements already given, her story dovetailed nicely with the physical evidence at the time.

The only reason this came out later was b/c a particular version of the story was being spread by the police, and she wanted to put the story out there of what she had previously told the police.

Like most people, I'm trying to make sense out of this. BUT her timely questioning, the lack of an explanation as to HOW she might have made up such a logical time-line, its dovetailing with the phone records and other indicators tell me she is more likely telling the truth than, say, Zimmerman. Who, I may also point out, had every reason to lie, and every opportunity with no one around to say different.


The facts remain - an armed large man shot an unarmed and much smaller teenager who was doing something as innocent as coming home with snacks. For sure that teen didn't jump Zimmerman out of the blue leading to defense from attack.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:55 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Stop picking on the illegal alien.

They have feelings too.

And he has a jewish name, so you must be antisemitic.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And yet people keep making the point he's Hispanic.

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