REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The practical uses of gun control.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Thursday, January 17, 2013 08:22
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Monday, January 7, 2013 2:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Being held firmly in the hands of a mother, defending herself and her twin daughters, in their own home, from an intruding dirt bag convict.


Mom hides children, shoots intruder Paul Ali Slater 5 times


LOGANVILLE, Ga. — A Georgia mother hid her two 9-year-old twins and shot an intruder, Paul Ali Slater, several times during a home invasion on Friday, according to multiple media reports.

The Loganville mother said she didn’t initially answer when someone knocked on her door around 1 p.m. Friday. When the visitor began repeatedly ringing the doorbell, she called her husband at work, according to the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

He then dialed 911 and his 37-year-old wife gathered their 9-year-old twins and hid them in a crawlspace inside the home.

According to the report, the intruder then forced his way into the home and started “rummaging” through the family’s belongings.

When the suspect went into the closet where the family was hiding ,the woman fired six bullets at the suspect, five of which hit alleged suspect Paul Ali Slater in the face and neck area.
“He opens the closet door and finds himself staring down the barrel of a .38 revolver,” Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

The woman fled to a neighbor’s home with her children. The woman and her two children were not injured.


http://myfox8.com/2013/01/06/ga-mom-shoots-intruder-5-times-saves-chil
dren
/


Not only did they give the perps name, they also posted his mug shot. ( Prior to it being nearly shot off, I reckon )



"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, January 7, 2013 2:27 PM

CHRISISALL


I call that a 'win'.

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Monday, January 7, 2013 4:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Bump.

Because 1kiki is a frelling moron.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, January 7, 2013 4:41 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

1kiki is a frelling moron.


I see no evidence of that here...

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Monday, January 7, 2013 7:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)



The practical uses of gun control.

Quote:

The Aurora shooting suspect, 33-year-old Sonny Archuleta, whose wife is the only survivor of Saturday’s Aurora shooting incident by jumping out the window, had lost his brother last year due to gun violence according to a RYOT news report on Jan. 5, 2013.

The Aurora shooting suspect’s brother Pat had been murdered in a local restaurant in Denver on Sept. 3, 2012.




http://www.examiner.com/article/aurora-shooting-motive-sonny-archuleta
-kills-3-woman-survives-by-jumping







"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, January 8, 2013 7:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

1kiki is a frelling moron.


I see no evidence of that here...



Then try opening your eyes.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 8:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


An attack on someone not even in this thread, with one example of something inexplicable...damn, that's a new low for Rap. Congratulations, moron!

Ignoring THAT, one example does not a point make, which of course eludes Rap at every turn. Now, facts...
Quote:

In 1998, for every time that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 51 people lost their lives in handgun homicides alone. Add in suicides and the ratio stretches to 134 to one. (Unintended Consequences, p. 60) And yet, over the last 30 years, the gun industry has promoted the putative value of handguns for self-defense more than any other benefit, such as recreation. The gun industry argues that this supposed self-defense benefit outweighs the risk of harm from pistols and revolvers demonstrated each year by America's unparalleled handgun death and injury rates.

the overwhelming majority of people who own handguns:

--are ignorant ofï, or ignore, basic handgun safety rules;

--do not have the necessary handgun combat marksmanship skills to effectively defend themselves without harming innocent others; and,

--are not prepared for the extreme physiological and psychological effects that the experts, many of whom have on-the-street law enforcement experience with firearms, agree inevitably occur in an armed life-or-death confrontation (the only situation in which lethal force is justified in self-defense). Lots more at http://www.vpc.org/studies/uninexec.htm


We have, of course, gone over this in depth and repeatedly, but we all know Rap will continue to offer one individual illustration after another, and refuting his little examples with the VAST volume of examples to the contrary will have no effect whatsoever.

Carry on... ;o)

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 9:06 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Duplicate thread.

CNN and Piers Morgan demand all gun owners be assassianted by Govt:





Keith Ratliff, manager of FPS Russia, was bound to a chair and shot in the back of his head. Very little additional information is coming out, as the investigating autorities are being very tight lipped.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1462812

Quote:

Body Found in Carnesville Identified

January 7, 2013
By MJ Kneiser

In Carnesville, not much is known yet about the death of a Kentucky man found late last Thursday on Hayes Road.

According to Franklin County Sheriff Stevie Thomas, the body of 32-year old Keith Ratliff of Frankfort, Kentucky was found about 5:45p Thursday evening.

At the time, authorities would not release any information until the victim’s relatives had been notified. On Sunday, Thomas said Ratliff’s body was discovered after a 911 call.

“We received a call about a possible DOA,” Thomas said Sunday. “Upon the deputies arrival, they found a white male who was unconscious and not breathing. EMS personnel came and determined the man was deceased.”

Thomas said they are treating the death as a homicide until the investigation proves otherwise. He would not say why the man was in Carnesville or give any other information.

Investigators, Thomas said, determined Ratliff had died of a single gunshot to the head and that his body been there for some time. Thomas said investigators found numerous guns in the area where Ratliff’s body was found.

Sheriff Thomas said agents with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation have been called in to assist in the investigation. Ratliff’s body was taken to the GBI Crime Lab in Atlanta for autopsy.

Thomas said the investigation is ongoing and more information will be released as it becomes available.

http://www.921wlhr.com/body-found-in-carnesville-identified-2/



The channel was made up of 3 people. Myself who managed the channel and Business, Keith who handled the weapons and manufacturing of anything we needed (Weapons manager) and FPS Russia. Myself and FPS Russia are still alive, in shock but alive. It is being treated as Homicide, we don't know the circumstances in which it happened and personally it doesn't feel real, we are at a bit of a loss. Keith was always armed, and knew how to shoot this is what is shocking to us, he wouldn't go down without a fight. No way. The factory where it took place was partially a set for a new show that we were about to start filming of which Keith was to be a part of. If it was someone he knew and trusted he likely wouldn't be expecting anything to happen.
-Kitty Lash
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3917557



There's a lot of govt agencies that donj't want this guy's youtube videos getting a billion views. FPSRussia damn near gets killed/horribly maimed when be blows-up the truck with a 'suitcase gun'. Watch the huge piece of truck come screaming back at him and barely miss him:




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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 9:12 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
An attack on someone not even in this thread, with one example of something inexplicable...damn, that's a new low for Rap. Congratulations, moron!



This is what happens when the deranged go fully over the edge, as our little rappy clearly has.






Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, January 11, 2013 8:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Let's see...one woman defends herself.

As counterpoint, I offer this:
Quote:

How Many People Have Been Killed by Guns In America Since Newtown?

The answer to the simple question in that headline is surprisingly hard to come by. So Slate and the Twitter feed @GunDeaths are collecting data for our crowdsourced interactive. This data is necessarily incomplete. But the more people who are paying attention, the better the data will be. If you know about a gun death in your community that isn’t represented here, please tweet @GunDeaths with a citation.



The answer? 695. In less than a month.

More, and interactive version of the above, with each case identifiable by clicking on it and an interactive map showing where they occurred at http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_deat
h_tally_every_
american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

(had to cut URL to fit)

I wonder how many deer were killed in that time, and how many guns were successfully used by people to stop crime? I believe those are two of the arguments for gun ownership, aren't they?

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 12:35 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Agreed. In this instance, the practical use of a hand gun worked.

The mother was cool under pressure and handled her shit correctly, bravo.

But, in the case of the Newtown shootings, not!


SGG

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:51 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


I would like to point out that none of the gun control laws would have effected the women in the story in doing what she did.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:06 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I wonder how many deer were killed in that time, and how many guns were successfully used by people to stop crime? I believe those are two of the arguments for gun ownership, aren't they?



Since you ignored the answers to these questions in the "Self Defense is merely a by-product of an armed populous" thread, here they are again.

Rolling up state by state figures, looks like about 7 to 8 million deer were harvested in 2011. Since most hunting seasons are two months or less, let's say 3.5 million in a months time.

BTW, per the Census Bureau, around 13.6 million people spent 281 million days hunting in 2011, with 11.5 million spending 212 million days hunting big game, mostly deer.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/fhw11-nat.pdf

Also, around 34.4 million folks engaged in shooting sports other than hunting in 2010.
http://nssf.org/PDF/research/NSSF-Shooting-Participation-2010-Report.p
df


The University of Florida's self-defense study found that a firearm is used for self-defense every 13 seconds, so that'd be about 200,000 times a month.





"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I ignored the answers because my initial statement was a snark, and nothing more. I have nothing against those using guns for hunting. I personally DISLIKE hunting for pleasure, but that has nothing to do with which guns are used. If I recall correctly, the question was how many ASSAULT-WEAPONS (or, if you will, automatic or semi-automatic weapons)...if I did not make that clear, I meant to.

As to Kleck's SURVEY (it was not a STUDY, and it was not the University of Florida's, it was Kleck's) and the 2.5 million, etc., etc., it has been debunked many times, as i've mentioned before. The only ones who continue to cite it again and again are those pro-gun. For a thorough examination of his study and why it is not a viable OR verifiable source, read http://vacps.org/public-policy/the-contradictions-of-kleck

Just one small paragraph would give one pause:
Quote:

Kleck’s survey {not "study", notice} also included gun uses against animals and did not distinguish civilian uses from military or police uses. Kleck’s Interviewers do not appear to have questioned a random individual at a given telephone number, but rather asked to speak to the male head of the household. Males from the South and West were oversampled. The results imply that many hundreds of thousands of murders should have been occurring when a private gun was not available for protection. Yet guns are rarely carried, less than a third of adult Americans personally own guns, and only 27,000 homicides occurred in 1992.

Also, per Wikipedia:
Quote:

Kleck's survey shows armed citizens wounding or killing attackers 207,000 times in one year, contrasted against the total of around 100,000 Americans wounded or killed, accidentally or intentionally, in a typical year. "SURVEY RESEARCH AND SELF-DEFENSE GUN USE: AN EXPLANATION OF EXTREME OVERESTIMATES". Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology (Northwestern) 87: 1430. Retrieved 9 November 2012

And
Quote:

incidents in which victims used guns for self-protection, an average of 4.75 times per minute for each minute of the year, compared to about four hundred thousand crimes committed by offenders with guns.Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun", 86 Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1, 1995

Seriously?

The Kleck SURVEY can be argued until the cows come home; it does not represent the definitive word on the subject, and other surveys and STUDIES contradict it.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Also, with regard to Kleck's survey:
Quote:

Many people are amazed that projections about national phenomena can be made based on a telephone survey of a few thousand adults. While many surveys of this type can provide useful information about national phenomena, in this particular case the public’s skepticism is warranted. The primary problem is that, even if the Kleck and Gertz’s estimates were accurate, defensive gun use is a relatively rare occurrence in that only 1% of respondents reported a defensive gun use during the previous 12 months. As David Hemenway of Harvard University has pointed out, inaccurate reporting of these events by a relatively small number of respondents could lead to population projections that are orders of magnitude different from the true incidence.14 For example, if one-half of one percent of the survey respondents incorrectly reported that they had used a gun to defend themselves against a criminal attack during the past year, the estimated number of defensive gun uses would be twice as high the true number.

There are many reasons that respondents’ reports of defensive gun use might be exaggerated. In some cases, respondents may have misjudged the level of danger they faced when they drew their gun. Survey researchers are also familiar with two types of response bias, “telescoping” and social desirability bias, that could lead to an overstated incidence of reported events such as defensive gun use. Telescoping refers to the tendency of respondents to report that salient events such as a crime victimization or a defensive gun use occurred more recently than was the case. Evidence that the Kleck-Gertz survey respondents are telescoping their recollections of their crime victimizations comes from the estimated number of robbery victimizations it produces that is nearly five times as high as the estimate derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). The NCVS minimizes telescoping by using shorter recall periods and a panel design that re-surveys respondents multiple times over a three-year period.

Social desirability bias refers to the tendency of respondents to over-report their actions they believe others would find admirable such as an heroic act to defend oneself or others against a criminal. There is no way to definitively determine the degree to which social desirability bias may have influenced the Kleck-Gertz estimates of defensive gun use. However, it seems likely that the nearly half of the respondents reporting defensive gun uses who indicated that they believe their defensive gun use saved their life or the life of someone else probably thought of their actions as heroic. Such incidents are regularly reported in American Rifleman, a monthly magazine distributed to all members of the National Rifle Association, in a manner that unequivocally portrays the incidents as heroic acts. Daniel Webster, ScD, MPH, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD; Jens Ludwig, PhD, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, "Myths about Defensive Gun Use and Permissive Gun Carry Laws"; much more at http://www.bmsg.org/pdfs/myths.pdf



Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 5:39 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:


Originally posted by Geezer:
The University of Florida's self-defense study found that a firearm is used for self-defense every 13 seconds, so that'd be about 200,000 times a month.



Every 13 seconds? Riiiiiight. And if my grandmother had handles she'd be a wheelbarrow.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:


Originally posted by Geezer:
The University of Florida's self-defense study found that a firearm is used for self-defense every 13 seconds, so that'd be about 200,000 times a month.



Every 13 seconds? Riiiiiight. And if my grandmother had handles she'd be a wheelbarrow.




Niki, you get lots of points for so soundly and roundly debunking Geezer's "cites" and "evidence" - hey, 200,000 perps wounded or killed in one year, more than DOUBLE the number of gunshots reported in the country during that time - but I have to say, Jongsie gets the prize for making me actually laugh milk out my nose.

Wheelbarrow, indeed.

Here's another study that shows up the statistical inanity of Kleck's survey (not study):

www.stat.duke.edu/~dalene/chance/chanceweb/103.myth0.pdf

It's a PDF, but it's not a big file.

The claim that guns are used for self-defense every 13 seconds is right up there with President Obama's $2,000,000,000 India trip with 39 warships and every room in the Taj Mahal rented out.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:15 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Kleck's SURVEY (it was not a STUDY, and it was not the University of Florida's, it was Kleck's) and the 2.5 million, etc., etc., it has been debunked many times, as i've mentioned before. The only ones who continue to cite it again and again are those pro-gun. For a thorough examination of his study and why it is not a viable OR verifiable source, read http://vacps.org/public-policy/the-contradictions-of-kleck



So you quote a gun control advocacy group's document to debunk what you consider a gun rights advocacy document.

Why don't we both go looking for a non-biased source, and then we can talk.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:48 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Let's see...one woman defends herself.


The President says that if even one life is saved then its a good policy.

Banning all guns will save some lives. Banning some guns will save some lives. Doing nothing will save some lives. Requiring every law abiding citizen to own a gun will save some lives. Doing any of these things will also cost lives.

In the middle of this debate is an average American citizen. He is law abiding, educated, and productive. You would say to that man 'you must do as we say for your own good'. I look at that man and say 'you must do as you see fit and I trust you to make the right decision and to be responsible.'

It seems to me that America's best results come when we place trust and power into the hands of average citizens. If you don't believe that...then this argument is not about gun control, its about liberty.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, Mike, I got MY first chortle of the day from Geezer's "refutation" of what I posted. Obviously the Journal of Law and Criminality and Duke University don't count; I chose to post that ONE quote because it was succinct and to the point...the same thing can be found in numerous sources.

Oh, hell, just for the fun of it: http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1996/12/22/dgu-00027/,
http://apin.harvard.edu/faculty/david-hemenway/files/Review_of_Gary_Kl
eck_2004.pdf
,
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=102] (National Academies Press)

So I guess Harvard and the National Academies Press don't count, either.

I'm sure Phillip J. Cook from the Sanford Institute of Public Policy, Duke University, Durham, North Carolina, and National Consortium for Violence Research and National Bureau of Economic Research AND Jens Ludwig, from Georgetown Public Policy Institute, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, and Northwestern University/University of Chicago Poverty Center, Evanston, Illinois aren't "valid" either. They researched both Kleck's survey and one of the major resources which refutes his survey, the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) at http://home.uchicago.edu/ludwigj/papers/JQC-CookLudwig-DefensiveGunUse
s-1998.pdf
), a nationally representative survey of 59,000 households conducted by the Census Bureau for the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (McDowall and Wiersema, 1994). The NCVS attempts to interview each individual age 12 or older in eligible households; housing units are retained in the sample for 3 years, and the residents are interviewed each 6 months. The most recent published estimates from NCVS data suggest 108,000 defensive gun uses annually (Cook et al., 1997). Quite a bit different from Kleck's methodology. But I'm sure that doesn't count either.

Then there's this simple math:
Quote:

We can do a validity check on Kleck's numbers by using them to calculate some real-world condition. Let's look at the Rs who reported a DGU. In any given year, there are 2.5 million of them. 15.7% estimated that they ``almost certainly'' would have been killed if they had not resisted with a gun. Another 14.2% said ``probably'' and 16.2% said they ``might have'' been killed. They had the additional choices of ``probably not'' and ``almost certainly not''. If the surveyors and the Rs are honest and accurate, these numbers will have some similarity to real crime statistics.

Assume that all of the ``almost certainlys'', half of the ``probablys'' and none of the ``might haves'' were killed, for a total of 15.7+8.1=23.8%, or, approximately 20%. Apparently, something like half of all American households have guns. Let us assume that half of all Americans are armed and ready to defend themselves. This is probably an overestimate. This means that another 2.5 million Americans experienced a criminal act that they could have defended themselves from if they had been armed. According to the statistics above, something like 20% of them ought to have died. That works out to 500,000 homicides. The rate of successful homicides in the U.S. was something like 20,0001 at the time of Kleck's survey. Kleck's lethality estimates are out by well over an order of magnitude.

Note that I rounded down my percentage killed, and almost certainly, I overestimated the percentage of Americans armed and ready to defend themselves. http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/GunSurveys/GunSurveys.html#SECTION00040000
000000000000
]
Also:
Quote:

Thoroughly debunked years ago, the gun lobby’s favorite research – a 1995 study by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz that reported an astounding 2.5 million defense gun uses (DGU) each year in the United States. Yep, you read it right; 2.5 million DGUs PER YEAR!
The Kleck study claims that 2.5 million times per year, someone uses a gun to defend themselves. That’s more defensive gun uses than happened in WWII in Europe in 1944. The Kleck study is so flawed the only thing it measures is the wild imagination of gun owners.

As recently as this month, the NRA referenced Kleck’s deeply flawed and thoroughly refuted study AGAIN in their magazine, America’s 1st Freedom.

With the help of liars like Alan Korwin and others, the NRA continues to feed its readers demonstrable lies and distortions.
Here, for your reference, is a short list of the many peer reviewed, refereed, academic articles published that clearly refute Kleck’s astronomical claim.*
• “The gun debate’s new mythical number: How many defensive uses per year?” Journal of Police Analysis and Management, 1997

• “The myth of millions of annual self-defense gun use: A case study of survey overestimates of rare events” Chance – American Statistical Association, 1997

• “Defensive Gun Uses: New Evidence from a National Survey” Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1998

• “The Relative Frequency of Offensive and Defensive Gun Uses: Results from a National Survey”, Violence and Victims, 2000

• “Myths about Defensive Gun Use and Permissive Gun Carry Laws” Berkeley Media Studies Group, 2000

• “Comparing the Incidence of Self-Defense Gun Use and Criminal Gun Use” Harvard Injury Control Research Center, 2009

The ultimate proof the Kleck claim is bullshit, is the fact that despite spending 35 million dollars/year to deceive the public and threaten politicians, in fourteen years since the study, the gun lobby has funded numerous FAILED attempts to repeat Kleck’s study. http://www.oneutah.org/tag/kleck-de-bunkerd-kleck-debunked/


I would suggest, rather than focusing on one cite which he considers inappropriate, Geezer REFUTE the facts presented in that cite, and in all the others. THEN we'd have something to discuss; rejecting the cite without refuting what it presents in facts and figures is irrelevant.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Russian losses in Ukraine
Sat, April 27, 2024 17:57 - 1011 posts
Elections; 2024
Fri, April 26, 2024 01:29 - 2311 posts
14 Tips To Reduce Tears and Remove Smells When Cutting Onions
Thu, April 25, 2024 23:52 - 8 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, April 25, 2024 23:38 - 3570 posts
Scientific American Claims It Is "Misinformation" That There Are Just Two Sexes
Thu, April 25, 2024 20:03 - 17 posts
Another Putin Disaster
Thu, April 25, 2024 19:42 - 1512 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, April 25, 2024 19:19 - 6306 posts
Sentencing Thread
Thu, April 25, 2024 14:31 - 365 posts
Axios: Exclusive Poll - America warms to mass deportations
Thu, April 25, 2024 11:43 - 1 posts
Case against Sidney Powell, 2020 case lawyer, is dismissed
Wed, April 24, 2024 19:58 - 12 posts
Grifter Donald Trump Has Been Indicted And Yes Arrested; Four Times Now And Counting. Hey Jack, I Was Right
Wed, April 24, 2024 09:04 - 804 posts
Slate: I Changed My Mind About Kids and Phones. I Hope Everyone Else Does, Too.
Tue, April 23, 2024 19:38 - 2 posts

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