REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Arkansas Tar Sands spill: Exxon declares no-fly zone.

POSTED BY: OLDENGLANDDRY
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 06:26
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Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:43 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY

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Friday, April 5, 2013 10:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, nothing controls the population like controlling their information. And since pictures can be powerful, THOSE get extra-heavy-duty scrubbing.

BP did that for the Macondo blowout, in cooperation with the gubmint

Quote:

According to a news release from the Unified Command, violation of the "safety zone" rules can result in a civil penalty of up to $40,000, and could be classified as a Class D felony. Because booms are often placed more than 40 feet on the outside of islands or marsh grasses, the 65-foot rule could make it difficult to photograph and document the impacts of oil on land and wildlife, media representatives said.



The NRC did the same thing when the only thing preventing a nuclear disaster at Ft Calhoun reactor was a line of sandbags
Quote:

The Federal Aviation Administration issued a temporary flight restriction over the Fort Calhoun Nuclear Power Plant until further notice due to “Hazards”. This would normally be a precautionary measure after an electrical fire disabled cooling for the spent fuel rod pool as outlined below. The question is why is this still in effect?



The pictures that Kwicko put up... ugh. But not to be seen in the mainstreamn press! No wonder so many people think that the Keystone pipeline is a good idea. They have no idea what's in store.

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Friday, April 5, 2013 12:45 PM

DREAMTROVE


My objection to the keystone pipeline is not that it is a pipeline and might have a spill, I don't think that's the sort of major concern that would sway voting opinion. My concern is that it supports the athabascan oil sands project, to the specific end that it would allow export of Alberta oil to China, which would fuel an ongoing environmental disaster on an epic scale.

Turning this

into this



The project plans to take an area of pristine untouched wilderness the size of England and reduce it to wasteland.

And it claims that this will solve our* energy needs. Unlike fracking and mountaintop removal, it's possible that they are right about this, temporaril, of course, and then we'll need to destroy something else. And continue until there's nothing left.

* And by "our" I mean China's.

We don't need to do this. We can get off our lazy human asses and build our own gorram power base out of solar and wind. Okay, I know there are some out there who don't like that idea, I'm not sure why, but I have this to say:

One way or another, we are going to have to do it eventually. After we've leveled canada and alaska and brazil, after we reduce the surface of the earth to a toxic slagheap, we're still going to need energy, and at that point, the only options left to us will be to get off our asses and build renewables like solar and wind. Why not do it before we lose the Earth?




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Friday, April 5, 2013 5:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


First off, kudos 100% to DT, and I find myself in full agreement with him, which is a rarity.

He's got it exactly right. Using all the oil in the world before we decide to move on doesn't make us smart; it makes us monumentally stupid. There is a window of opportunity for the U.S. to get on the renewable energy bandwagon, and it's a window that's narrowing every day. At some point, and probably fairly soon, we will be left behind as a nation, a power, an economy, and will be nothing but yet another forgotten "empire" that grew too big and decided it was too big to fail, and then found out too late that there is no such thing.


Lee Camp put up some aerial footage of the Arkansas spill on his Moment of Clarity website. He's a stand-up comic, of all things, and a hell of an activist as well. So he puts up this footage, and suddenly the area is declared a no-fly zone. Kind of like every time someone films cops doing something really horrific or embarrassing, the first reaction by the police is to try to outlaw filming the police. Rather than ever even begin to THINK about addressing the problem, just outlaw reporting the problem, and the problem is solved.

Certain states that outlaw discussion of sea level rise come to mind, too. "Quick, bury your head in that sand before the water washes it all away! That way there won't be a problem!"

America: You're Doing It Wrong






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 3:07 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Mike:
yet another forgotten "empire" that grew too big and decided it was too big to fail, and then found out too late that there is no such thing.



well put.

On the "no pictures, please, we're committing a crime" front, I concur. When the nonsense at Bagram started, pics started showing up in Pakistan of what was going on, and the military responded by putting tarps on cages, putting a wall around the camp, and adding a 2-mile perimeter patrol to enforce a new "no picture" rule.

It's also the thing that won me over on the 9.11 issue. If everyone was so sure that the official story was correct, why seize all images of the events? Surely if you were telling the truth those would verify your position and you wouldn't have to argue the case. It's also, alas, is what makes me suspect that PN might have a point about Sandy Hook. I suspect a govt. that wanted policy to hinge on an event would be less concerned about "how traumatizing it would be to families to have that footage in existence" and more concerned that they had a solid story that no one was going to question. It's suspicious. And again with the Osama Bin Laden killing. Of course, eventually they'll just wisen up and hire a team of photoshoppers to edit frame by frame, and conspiracy theorists will just point out places where the background is warped or someone standing in a room is not reflected in the mirror, etc.

Added scary detail: That an oil company now has that much power. This one bothered me in Deepwater Horizon as well.

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 5:31 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:


Added scary detail: That an oil company now has that much power. This one bothered me in Deepwater Horizon as well.




It's not unilateral power, really - in order to declare a no-fly zone, a corporation first needs to have a captive government in its pocket, willing to enforce whatever the company tells it to do.


Oh. That's pretty much exactly what we've got now that corporations are people!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 8:10 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


It's nice to see that conspiracy theories know no political boundries.

If Exxon is gonna use helicopters to move cleanup folks to areas with no roads in the spill area, or use them to do surveys of the extent of the spill (as the cited article notes), sort'a stands to reason they would ask that newsies not be flying in their work area. Or would you rather that the cleanup be delayed? The "no-fly zone" is limited to a five mile area and a ceiling of 1000 ft, so any news copter with a decent camera could get all the footage needed from that altitude. Also, haven't seen anything about press not in aircraft being banned from the area, so if they're capable of driving or walking, seems they could get in.

Interesting as well to conflate a 60+ year old pipeline with a brand new one designed with 60+ years of improvements, and in a much more litigious and regulated era. But then, spin knows no political boundries either.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 11:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


"But then, spin knows no political boundries [sic] either. "


As you are fond of reminding us with your every post. Do you ever get dizzy from whirling around like that?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 11:46 AM

DREAMTROVE


Mike,

I somewhat disagree. While I would agree with you about Citizens United, I think that I have some problems with the talking point.

1) no one ever said "corporations are people" the legal defense is "corporations are citizens." The justification for that is that corporations are groups of citizens acting together. By which I think it could be logically concluded that churches, political parties and hacker groups were also citizens.

2) You just have to look in the world at places where corporations are not citizens to see the problems that this idea would cause. Corporate status as citizens does not give them the right to break laws, because that's not a citizenship right. What it gives them is protection under the constitution. Without that protection, they would have their constitutional rights infringed upon, such as their right to free speech, peaceably assemble and their protections against search and seizure. A classic example of a society in which this is true is China, and you can see how the Govt. interferes in corporate activities to block any behavior that disagrees with the govt, and to direct corporate actions towards things the govt. wants, and moreover to appoint directors to corporations who are relatives of people in positions of govt in mass corporate-govt. nepotism.

The resulting bond between corporations and govt. without corporate citizenship is a closer one, not more distant. Since we both agree a corporate state is an undesirable goal, I suggest perhaps a different solution to reigning in corporate power is needed than taking away their constitutional rights.

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 1:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA



So we get a couple radio controlled model planes with camera mounts, simple enough.
If TPTB can use UAVs, well SO CAN WE, dammit.

Turnabout is always fair play.

-F

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 2:09 PM

DREAMTROVE


I had that thought. Some years back I made moves towards joining the local RC air club, even to the point of buying a plane, I just never found the time for it. Maybe now is that time.


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Saturday, April 6, 2013 2:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I am not taking away a corporation's constitutional rights; I simply am not for giving them MORE rights than actual citizens have.

And I will believe that a corporation is a citizen on the day when Rick Perry executes one. Or limits its political contribution to $2300, the same as any other citizen.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 2:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

So we get a couple radio controlled model planes with camera mounts, simple enough.
If TPTB can use UAVs, well SO CAN WE, dammit.

Turnabout is always fair play.

-F




Actually, no you can't. There was an article about a taco place that was going to do delivery-by-drone, but the FAA piped up to say that only the police and military have the right to fly drones in U.S. airspace.

I'd love to see that assertion challenged, of course.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 6, 2013 2:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
I had that thought. Some years back I made moves towards joining the local RC air club, even to the point of buying a plane, I just never found the time for it. Maybe now is that time.






Cameras are getting better and better and smaller and smaller, so now is probably a great time.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:09 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
"But then, spin knows no political boundries [sic] either. "


As you are fond of reminding us with your every post. Do you ever get dizzy from whirling around like that?



Ah, yes. You can't refute so you insult.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
"But then, spin knows no political boundries [sic] either. "


As you are fond of reminding us with your every post. Do you ever get dizzy from whirling around like that?



Ah, yes. You can't refute so you insult.





Sorry, did you have a patent on that?

You come in blathering a bunch of bullshit, and then accuse everyone here of engaging in spin. Did you not think you were being insulting?

And if you don't think it's insulting to say someone is spinning something...


... why do you think you've been insulted?



You made a bunch of unsupported claims that attempt to cast an oil company's actions in as positive a light as possible, and you've provided no sources for such claims. How do you view that as not trying to spin the issue?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, April 7, 2013 11:48 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"... and in a much more litigious and regulated era."

Since you're so familiar with environmental regulations and corporate liability, perhaps you could detail which particular laws and regulations and cases you're alluding to.


I'll wait.



... And if I have the time, energy and ambition, I'll hound you from thread to thread as you try and avoid the question.

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Monday, April 8, 2013 3:43 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"... and in a much more litigious and regulated era."

Since you're so familiar with environmental regulations and corporate liability, perhaps you could detail which particular laws and regulations and cases you're alluding to.


I'll wait.



Well, to start, theres the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (part of D.O.T.), where you can find all sorts of rules and regulations, as well as news stories about enforcement efforts and penalties for failure to comply.

http://phmsa.dot.gov/pipeline

When you finish there, let me know and I'll find more.

ETA: If you have anything that shows that these regulations were in place 60 years ago, please include it. Thanks.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, April 8, 2013 3:57 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You made a bunch of unsupported claims that attempt to cast an oil company's actions in as positive a light as possible, and you've provided no sources for such claims. How do you view that as not trying to spin the issue?



The original article is my source.

"Lynn Lunsford, an FAA spokesman, told Dow Jones a no fly zone was issued because "at least one" helicopter was needed to move clean-up crews around, as well as to spot oil that can't be seen from the ground.

"The pilot of the helicopter needs to be able to move about freely without potential conflicts with other aircraft," he told Dow Jones."

The dimensions of the no-fly zone are also there.

"The rules of engagement for the no fly zone dictate that no aircraft can fly within 1,000 feet of the ground in the five-mile radius surrounding the ExxonMobil Pegasus tar sands pipeline spill."





"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, April 8, 2013 3:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Interesting as well to conflate a 60+ year old pipeline with a brand new one designed with 60+ years of improvements
Like the latest-in-design deepwater oil well that was Macondo? Indeed, I wonder whether the new pipeline is designed like the Dreamliner, or like the latest steam-generators at the San Onofre nuclear plant. Because the goal of engineering is to make things safer, not cheaper, right?

But I mostly question the ethics of an oil compnay that would actually use a 60+ year-old pipeline. Do you think that maybe Exxon exceeded safety margins, looked at the money they might make, and went full steam ahead??

Nah..... that never would happen.
Quote:

If Exxon is gonna use helicopters to move cleanup folks to areas with no roads in the spill area, or use them to do surveys of the extent of the spill (as the cited article notes), sort'a stands to reason they would ask that newsies not be flying in their work area. Or would you rather that the cleanup be delayed?
Because, yanno... the scheduling of keeping track of one helicopter, it's a nightmare! I'm surprised they manage to run an oil company, with difficulties like that!

Quote:

Also, haven't seen anything about press not in aircraft being banned from the area, so if they're capable of driving or walking, seems they could get in.
Well then you haven't looked very far. There are numerous reports of press being told to leave by Exxon and by the local sheriff, even as others (politicians) were allowed in. I suspect the real purpose of the no-fly zone was not to keep planes out, but to keep press from getting in easily by means other than roadway.

Now, why do I suspect that the press is being kept out? Because nearly all of the online pictures are from residents.

After all, these are sensitive times, with Keystone XL being decided on. It wouldn't do to have a slew of bad press, especially considering that Keystone promises to be about 10 times larger than this pipeline. (800,000 bpd versus 90,000 bpd)

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Monday, April 8, 2013 4:06 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Geezer

The original article that talks about the FAA and the no-fly zone? This one - http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/04/03/exxon-s-skies-why-does-exxon-cont
rol-no-fly-zone-over-arkansas-tar-sands-spill
? Please point out to me where it indicates regulations and liabilities for companies piping tar sands oils.

As for this - http://phmsa.dot.gov/pipeline - this is what I get "The service is unavailable."

Interesting - a reference to a post with no answers, and a ghost link.

Try again.








ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Monday, April 8, 2013 4:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


To shorten this up, I eliminated some parts. To find the original, go to the link below.

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/04/6_things_you_need_to_know_about_the_ar
kansas_oil_spill_partner
/


6 things you need to know about the Arkansas oil spill
The damage it's wrought, human and environmental, could determine the future of the Keystone XL pipeline
By Tara Lohan

By now, you already know that at least 84,000 gallons of crude spilled from an ExxonMobil pipeline, swamping an Arkansas subdivision on Friday, and causing the evacuation of 22 homes. In addition to the loss of wildlife, damage to property, and environmental and human health hazards posed by the spill, it may have implications for the Keystone XL pipeline currently under consideration by the Obama administration.

There is a lot more to the story that’s important to understand. Here are six crucial things.

1. Not Your Average Crude

InsideClimate News reported shortly after the spill that an Exxon official confirmed the pipeline was “transporting a heavy form of crude from the Canadian tar sands region.” Specifically, it has been identified as Wabasca Heavy, Lisa Song writes, “which is a type of diluted bitumen, or dilbit, from Alberta’s tar sands region” although you won’t hear any Exxon folks calling it tar sands.

Dilbit is some seriously nasty stuff.

If you want to know more about how dangerous tar sands/dilbit can be, the Dilbit Disaster is a must-read.

2. Not Your Average Pipeline

The Pegasus pipeline running more than 850 miles between Patoka, Illinois and Nederland, Texas, is 20 inches in diameter and was built in the 1940s to carry crude from Texas to Illinois. But in 2006 the flow was reversed in order to carry Canadian tar sands to Texas. As Ben Jervey wrote for DeSmog blog, the flow was reversed to “help relieve the tar sands crude bottleneck in Cushing, Oklahoma. (The same reason given by proponents for the construction of Keystone XL.)”

The pipeline was built to carry 65,000 barrels a day, but Exxon was allowed to expand that to 95,000 barrels a day just a few years ago.

John H. Cushman Jr. wrote for InsideClimate News: seven years ago, when Exxon, the pipeline’s operator, turned it into a higher-volume line for diluted bitumen from Canada flowing under greater pressure to refineries on the Gulf Coast, federal rules did not require a new permit application or safety reviews, according to federal officials.

“Our regulations don’t specify how much product a pipeline carries. There is no regulation if they want to change the type of crude they carry,” said Damon Hill, a spokesman for the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration, a part of the Transportation Department. “As far as reversing the flow of a pipeline, it is not a safety issue.”

... only after the spill occurred did the agency step in with an order, issued Tuesday, that clamps down on the Pegasus pipeline, for example by limiting the pressure at which it may operate once it reopens. Noting that the pipeline’s flow was reversed in 2006 so that it could carry Canadian tar sands crude 850 miles from Illinois to Texas, the agency’s corrective action order remarked that “a change in the direction of flow can affect the hydraulic and stress demands on the pipeline.”

3. Tax Exempt?

Who’s footing the bill for the cleanup? The government has an Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund that companies which transport oil must pay into. But, as it turns out, the bitumen that Exxon was transporting in its pipeline isn’t oil by government standards. Erin O’Sullivan writes for Oil Change International:

In a January 2011 memorandum, the IRS determined that to generate revenues for the oil spill trust fund, Congress only intended to tax conventional crude, and not tar sands or other unconventional oils. This exemption remains to this day, even though the United States moves billions of gallons of tar sands crude through its pipeline system every year. The trust fund is liable for tar sands oil spill cleanups without collecting any revenue from tar sands transport. If the fund goes broke, the American taxpayer foots the cleanup bill.

Keep this in mind as Exxon tries to wiggle out of connecting the contents of its pipeline with tar sands.

4. No Media Access

It feels like BP’s Deepwater Horizon disaster all over again when it comes to media access. Lisa Song reported that the command center for cleanup is tightly controlled by Exxon, with even the parking lot off limits and guarded by security. She wrote:

The stakes are high and Exxon is running the show here, with federal agencies so far publicly invisible. The phone number of the command center in Mayflower goes to an ExxonMobil answering service based in Texas, and each day it is Exxon that distributes a unified command press release–which contains the logos of Exxon, Faulkner County and the city of Mayflower–with official updates on the progress of the cleanup. …

A request for a media tour of the spill site today was turned down by an Exxon spokesperson, who emerged from the command center to speak with a reporter at the gate. All areas being cleaned up so far have also been off limits. There is no central location where members of the media can gather to ask questions.

5. Under Investigation

Exxon may be feeling a little bit of heat as the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration has ordered a corrective action, which puts the broken pipeline under lockdown for the time being (pretty much a no-brainer).

“There are many questions and concerns remaining as to the long-term impacts, environmental or otherwise, from this spill,” Arkansas Attorney General Dustin McDaniel wrote to ExxonMobil executives Tuesday. He also asked ExxonMobil to preserve records pending his investigation.

6. Effects on Keystone XL

So, how is this going to affect decisions about the Keystone XL pipeline? Those who have been against the pipeline because of its environmental risks have new fodder. Others who were previously in favor or indifferent may have second thoughts, especially considering that the Pegasus pipeline capacity was only about a tenth of what the Keystone XL would carry.

Any pipeline poses risks, but tar sands pipelines pose even more risks than conventional oil. “TransCanada’s first Keystone pipeline leaked 12 times in its first 12 months,” wrote Sierra Club’s Michael Brune. “Because tar sands must be pumped at higher pressures and temperatures than conventional oil, it corrodes pipes faster.”

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Tuesday, April 9, 2013 3:57 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Geezer

The original article that talks about the FAA and the no-fly zone? This one - http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/04/03/exxon-s-skies-why-does-exxon-cont
rol-no-fly-zone-over-arkansas-tar-sands-spill
? Please point out to me where it indicates regulations and liabilities for companies piping tar sands oils.



It doesn't. I was talking about the 'no-fly' zone.

Anyone who watches the news should know that companies responsible for oil spills and other pollution events are regularly slapped with hefty fines and cleanup expenses, so asking for a specific reference is pretty disengenuious.

Quote:

As for this - http://phmsa.dot.gov/pipeline - this is what I get "The service is unavailable."


Works for me. Try it again.

Or you could just try googling PHMSA, but that'd mess up the whole conspiracy-theory vibe.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, April 9, 2013 5:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Everyone else has covered this aptly, I just wanted to remark that the fact that Geezer seems to be arguing that corporations and governments DON'T try to cover up embarrassing and photographable evidence of their wrongdoing is kinda amusing. If he believes this, hey, ho, I've got this bridge...

Absolutely amazing to find myself in agreement with DT--tho' it used to happen not infrequently long ago, before his obsessions seemed to take over--but he's covered the Keystone beautifully, and I thank you DT.


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Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:48 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Everyone else has covered this aptly, I just wanted to remark that the fact that Geezer seems to be arguing that corporations and governments DON'T try to cover up embarrassing and photographable evidence of their wrongdoing is kinda amusing.



You mean this oil spill?









And plenty more here.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=arkansas+oil+spill&FORM=HDRSC2#

Yep. they're covering up the photographable images all right.

Maybe you should do a little checking before making such claims.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I love this. Geezer is now attempting to make the argument that "corporations and governments DON'T try to cover up embarrassing and photographable evidence of their wrongdoing", somehow, I guess. Because that's all I said, and omigawd, how fast I could put up tons and tons of facts to prove they DO.

As to this particular spill, of course photos get out; they always do. What I see are ground photos; I don't think that's what was under discussion, and there's a vast difference between showing some oil on the ground and, potentially, the true expanse of the spill from the air. The simple fact is the no-fly zone was implemented, was REQUESTED by Exxon, and they're in charge of it:
Quote:

The oil giant ExxonMobil claims it is now easing its no-fly zone over its massive oil spill near Mayflower, Arkansas. The no-fly zone was granted at the company’s request after the leak of thousands of barrels of oil last Friday. It is controlled by Tom Suhrhoff, an Exxon official.

Also
Quote:

FAA site noted earlier today that "only relief aircraft operations under direction of Tom Suhrhoff" were allowed within the designated no fly zone. Suhrhoff is not an FAA employee: he works for ExxonMobil

Why is an employee of a private firm, Exxon, not the FAA or Coast Guard or some government agency, in charge of a no-fly zone over American soil? I think we have the right to wonder. Personally, I find it interesting; I'm not sure what-all "relief aircraft operations" for a spill like this would require a no-fly zone.

There are plenty of other examples, if Geezer doesn't like this one. There's also the fact that I was OFFICIALLY shooed off the beach in Louisianna, if anyone remember, for trying to take pictures of the clean-up there. I was nowhere near anything, not even on the beach itself, not bothering anyone, but the minute I was spotted with a camera, I was ushered away. I'm not quite the person to tell that oil companies try to avoid photos being taken of spills, and anyone who thinks they DON'T try to minimize photographic evidence of their screw-ups is just being silly.

Just takes a few seconds:

The BP spill:
Quote:

... as speaker after speaker noted, BP could start making things at least a little less wrong by coming clean with information.

The TEDxOilSpill Expedition team – photographers Duncan Davidson and Kris Krug, videographer Pinar Ozger and writer Darron Collins – were kept far from the water’s edge by BP’s private security firm, Talon, whose staff controlled the beaches. When Collins literally crossed the line by stepping over a miles-long orange boom dozens of yards from the water line, he was accosted by a team who set about washing his feet and decontaminating his shoes with great flurry and fanfare.

It took persistence, luck and a gutsy pilot to score a flight into the massive”no fly” zone to better see and document water set afire and oily sheen to the horizon. http://trackerblog.trackernews.net/tag/exxon-valdez/


I was there, remember? I posted about it as it happened to me.

All one has to do is think about all the times oil spills have been under-estimated, all the idiocy that went on during both the Exxon Valdez and BP Gulf Spill about keeping photogs away, providing misinformation, NO information, and on and on to question their CURRENT actions. No need for conspiracy paranoia, we've been there/done that before. Of COURSE governments and corporations try to limit information on their fuck ups; I can't believe Geezer is arguing they DON'T...but it's funny.


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Thursday, April 11, 2013 3:51 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Why is an employee of a private firm, Exxon, not the FAA or Coast Guard or some government agency, in charge of a no-fly zone over American soil? I think we have the right to wonder. Personally, I find it interesting; I'm not sure what-all "relief aircraft operations" for a spill like this would require a no-fly zone.



[sarcasm]Could it possibly be that Exxon needs to move equipment and personnel by helicopter, and do aerial surveys to chart the spill, and doesn't want uncontrolled aircraft causing additional hazards in their work area? Nah. That's completely unreasonable.

I can't imagine why they wouldn't want untrained strangers in their work areas either. Folk who might get injured and sue the company for damages. Makes no sense to me. [/sarcasm]


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, April 11, 2013 3:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Exxon unveils "Energy Everywhere" strategy:




[Disclaimer: Apparently there are some people on this site who cannot detect sarcasm or satire. For their edification, this is a joke; it is not an actual commercial put out by Exxon, but a parody.]



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, April 13, 2013 4:55 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
No need for conspiracy paranoia, we've been there/done that before. Of COURSE governments and corporations try to limit information on their fuck ups; I can't believe Geezer is arguing they DON'T...but it's funny.




Interesting.

You have no doubt that the corrupt government is complicit in conspiring with Exxon to cover up the Arkansas oil spill, yet this is the same government you believe would not be involved in gunwalking in the Fast and Furious fiasco, would not use universal NICS checks to create an illegal universal firearms registry, and will handle the Affordable Care Act responsibly while dealing with 'Big Pharma" the AMA, and the health insurance companies.

Do you ever question your schizophrenia regarding the government, or are they only corrupt when it concerns something you don't like?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, April 13, 2013 11:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Geezer, are you under the impression that we DON'T think that government can fuck up?

Personally, I'll save my criticism for when they DO fuck up (yanno, like all of those useless wars that are bankrupting our nation), and be ready with the kudos for when they do something good. In this case, the government is not only in bed with big oil, it's making the covers move in ways that I'm not sure are safe for young eyes.

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Sunday, April 14, 2013 1:30 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Apparently Geezer has his own myopic schizophrenia, and cannot see that corporations fuck up and try to cover up their fuck-ups as well. Somehow, when they do it, it's all for the best, and the world is sweetness and light and baskets of puppies.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:16 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Geezer is a very thoughtless man. He falls into the same errors as rappy time and time again. Which is funny, since he prides himself on being the intellect of the Firefly right wing.

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Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:41 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Geezer, are you under the impression that we DON'T think that government can fuck up?



No. I'm under the impression that - when it fits your preconceptions - you sometimes think the government is evil and in collusion with big business, such as the imagined FAA/Exxon conspiracy to cover up the Arkansas oil spill. Then again, you also sometimes think that government is the solution to problems such as health care, although the government will have to deal with big business there as well. Your trust of the government seems to be situational, based on whether what it is doing fits what you want done.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Apparently Geezer has his own myopic schizophrenia, and cannot see that corporations fuck up and try to cover up their fuck-ups as well. Somehow, when they do it, it's all for the best, and the world is sweetness and light and baskets of puppies.



Now where did I say that?

Exxon should be liable for cleanup and remediation of the Arkansas spill, and probably get a hefty penalty for failure to maintain their pipeline.

But the FAA/Exxon conspiracy fantasy? That's just PN-worthy.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


OH, Mike...

Oh, MIKE...
"...this rancid sludge won't spew everywhere by itself"...and the MUSIC...!


That one just HIT my funny bone...I no sooner caught the first couple of seconds and heard "We'll pump that shit right down your driveway" and "lawn-based oil reserves" than I was off and roaring; Jim came running in to ask what was wrong, I was laughing so hard, and I couldn't even HEAR the rest, just saw glimpses of it through laughing tears. Had to go back and watch it again and try not to laugh, it was that good!

That was absolutely priceless--I wish there were TWO awards for first belly laugh of the morning...most excellent...


On a more serious note (but not much), does Geezer really believe we lefties don't KNOW the government is quite capable of "fiascos" and being in bed with Big Pharma, etc.? I recognize he and his ilk can't conceive that any small steps toward improving healthcare in this country couldn't possibly be worth accepting the bullshit that may come with it (especially if it LESSENS those movement under the covers between insurance companies, Big Pharma, doctors and others, as WELL as costing us less by covering people WE NOW PAY FOR when they go to the E.R.), and no doubt believe, even tho' he called it a "fiasco", that Fast and Furious was a conspiracy, not a fuck up...and of course if REPUBLICANS were in charge, no fiascos or duplicitous actions would POSSIBLY be taken by our government...that's about it, isn't it? One word:


On the other hand, I WOULD like to see ANY proof of this universal registry thing...which I do find hard to swallow.


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Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


GEEZER
Quote:

No. I'm under the impression that - when it fits your preconceptions - you sometimes think the government is evil and in collusion with big business
So, is our government in collusion with big business, or not? Or is it just a figment of imagination that tax policies, benefits, and protections treat wealthy individuals and corporations better than average workers?
Quote:

Then again, you also sometimes think that government is the solution to problems such as health care, although the government will have to deal with big business there as well. Your trust of the government seems to be situational, based on whether what it is doing fits what you want done.
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

Except, I don't trust the government. I approve of some of its actions and disapparove of others. Are you saying I should approve of government when it's doing things I DON'T want it to do?

Here's something I'll never trust: privately-owned business. The so-called "job creators" don't spend their big brains thinking about how to "create" job, they're thinking about how to get rid of them. They exist only to take money from me and put it into their pockets. Given that business' intrinsic raison d'etre is to screw everyone else over, what is there to trust?

NIKI- that is part of the fatal flaw of right-wing authoritarianism: black-and-white thinking. Leftists "trust" the government and "worship" Obama, because right-wingers trust and worhsip their authorities (business and the military, mostly).

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Sunday, April 14, 2013 7:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"...nationwide lawn emersion systems...or 'pipelines'...make our industry the Johnny Appleseed of getting shit fucking EVERYWHERE..."

Jim watched it twice...they REEELY did a good job!


From the video's site on Facebook:
Quote:

America's oil industry is terribly misunderstood. When a lot of people hear "364 pipeline spills in 2012" they think it's a big mess, like a nearly realized advent calendar of crap. What they fail to see is a revolutionary energy distribution system about to achieve NATIONWIDE COVERAGE.

And remember, that's not just gas or oil flowing through the streets of Arkansas--it's dilbit, the thick toxic hydrocarbon stew produced by tarsands. So roam wherever, and take your energy source with you! That s--t is sticky as hell, it's not like you're going to be able to get it off.




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Sunday, April 14, 2013 8:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Back to the very serious issue at hand. More questions arise. Apparently it was at
Quote:

3:19 p.m. that the transcripts record first contact with Exxon.

"Exxon Mobil contacted and enroute/30 minute eta," the transcript notes.

Exxon company responders arrived within 24 minutes, and at 3:46 p.m. Exxon told local officials that they had shut off the pipe."
.....
Exxon has maintained a studied silence on the events of the day, noting in press releases and communications with federal investigators that the company shut off the pipeline within 16 minutes of learning of the spill.

And while police reports indicate that Exxon found out about the spill when the company was notified by local officials, other documents suggest that the company may have known something was wrong hours earlier.

Exxon told the federal National Response Center that it saw a problem on the line at 1:15 p.m. when it spotted a drop in pressure, an hour and a half before the first 911 call reached the Faulkner County sheriff. The National Response Center is a division of the U.S. Coast Guard. Pipeline operators must notify the NRC of oil or chemical spills. Exxon placed that first call to the NRC at 4:06 p.m. local time, about 20 minutes after its responders arrived on the scene in Mayflower.

Two hours after filing that first report with the NRC, however, Exxon filed a second report reporting the time of the incident as 3:20 p.m. In a third report to the NRC the next day, Exxon again reported "the incident was discovered" at 1:15 p.m.

In an interview on Wednesday, Larry Hawthorne, the Exxon field regulatory specialist who made the first call to the National Response Center, said NRC made a "mistake" when it listed 1:15 p.m. He said the report should have said 3:15 p.m., because that's when an Exxon employee confirmed the spill on the ground. The police transcripts say Exxon did not arrive on the scene until 3:43 p.m.

Exxon's second incident report to the National Response Center also says the release of oil lasted for three hours, and Exxon has been asked when that three-hour period began and ended.

"I will get this into the proper person for public information," Hawthorne said.

Five hours later, Exxon added a post to its blog website that tells a new story. The company says it first detected a pressure drop in the line at 2:37 p.m. and initiated a full shutdown of the pipeline that was completed within 16 minutes. The company also writes that "emergency response personnel were on the ground in Mayflower within 30 minutes after the leak was detected," which would put company employees at the scene at 3:07 p.m.

This accident in Mayflower also involved heavy Canadian oil from Alberta's tar sands region. As in Kalamazoo, too, the company responsible, in this case Exxon, confirmed the rupture of their pipeline not from its own safety and monitoring systems, but from a phone call that came in from authorities on the ground in Mayflower, the police transcripts indicate.

In 2010, Enbridge control room operators ignored 16 alarms in their control room as Line 6B was leaking heavy oil in Michigan. They restarted the pipeline twice, not realizing their line had a rupture, and it took 17 hours before the company learned of the spill from a local utility worker calling into the emergency line. It was the worst oil disaster of its kind in U.S. history.

Between 2002 and July 2012, remote sensors detected only 5 percent of the nation's pipeline spills, according to data from the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA). The general public reported 22 percent of the spills during that period. Pipeline company employees at the scenes of accidents reported 62 percent. More at http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130411/exxon-didnt-know-its-pipeli
ne-ruptured-until-called-arkansas-authorities-or-did-it


Here's the timeline:
Quote:

1:15 p.m.—ExxonMobil discovers a drop in pressure in its Pegasus pipeline, according to its first report to the National Response Center, which it filed at 4:06 p.m. that afternoon. The "reporting party" was Larry Hawthorne, an Exxon field regulatory specialist in Houston, Texas.

2:44 p.m.—The first 911 call comes in from Jennifer Dement of 50 Starlite Road North in the North Woods neighborhood of Mayflower, Ark. According to sheriff's records, "a pipe busted and oil is spilling throughout the neighborhood!!" A 911 dispatcher notifies local emergency agencies.

2:59 p.m.—Local emergency personnel begin evacuating homes. Transcripts note that "the oil is spreading fast ... storm drain is backed up."

Approx. 2:54 p.m.—Exxon completely shuts down all of the pumps on the pipeline system, according to an Apr. 10 blog by the company.

3:07 p.m.—Exxon arrives at the scene of the spill, according to the blog post.

3:09 p.m.—Police report that the "oil is leaking towards Conway Lake." A fire hazmat team from nearby Conway, Ark. is called in to help contain the oil.

3:12—Mayflower Volunteer Fire Department arrives at the scene.

3:16 p.m.—A 911 dispatcher calls Exxon and alerts the company to the situation. Records say the estimated time of arrival would be 30 minutes. Faulkner County Judge Allen Dodson is also en route to the scene.

3:26 p.m.—Police notifies the Mayflower school district about the spill. Dispatcher says, "children coming into North Woods subdivision will not be allowed."

3:43 p.m.—Exxon arrives at the scene, according to sheriff's office records.

3:46 p.m.—Exxon tells police they have shut off the pipeline, according to the sheriff's office.

4:06 p.m.—ExxonMobil Pipeline representative Larry Hawthorne reports the incident to the National Response Center, a branch of the U.S. Coast Guard that pipeline companies must notify after oil spills. Hawthorne tells the NRC that Exxon had a pressure drop on the pipeline and that an unknown amount of crude had spilled.

4:11 p.m.—The National Response Center notifies 16 local, state and federal emergency and environmental agencies of the spill, including Environmental Protection Agency Region VI.

4:30 p.m.—Members of the media start showing up at the spill site.

5:33 p.m.—Representatives from the EPA's Region VI head to the spill.

6:04 p.m.—Exxon Mobil Pipeline representative Thad Massengale, also in Houston, updates the National Response Center about the spill, according to a second report the company files with the NRC. Massengale lists the start time of the leak as 3:20 p.m., which is 36 minutes after the first 911 calls were made and more than two hours after the company originally said it detected a pressure drop on the pipeline.

Approx. 6:20 p.m.—Leakage stopped, according to Massengale's report to the NRC. The report states that the "release duration" was three hours.

Saturday, March 30, 2013

3:00 a.m.—A report from the EPA's Region VI office contradicts Massengale's report. It says the pipeline didn't stop until "approximately 0300 hours (3:00 a.m.) on 30 March 201," a detail Exxon confirms in its Apr. 10 blog post.

3:25 a.m.—An unnamed Exxon representative files a third report with the National Response Center. It reverts back to the original time, noting that the "incident was discovered" at 1:15 p.m.


Decide for yourself. I'm SURE Exxon is being honest with us all, they're the good guys, right? Oil companies wouldn't lie to us, would they?

Our government wouldn't put them in charge of our airspace, either, would they? Ain't no "conspiracy"; the contention is that the FAA just turned over jurisdiction to Exxon and trusted them, while knowing full well Exxon would do what it could to minimize exposure of the situation. They just don't CARE, get it? Oil...er, MONEY, talks!

Apparently most of the public doesn't know either, that
Quote:

to make the heavy oil flow through the pipeline, producers dilute it with toxic chemicals that evaporate when released into the environment, endangering the health and lives of people who inhale the fumes.



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Sunday, April 14, 2013 8:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, by the way...
Quote:

Now, there is even lore emerging around a local hero named Jimmy Joe Johnson, an employee of the city Street Department. His quick thinking in particular, it seems, saved the town's much-beloved Lake Conway from receiving a sudden flood of Canadian heavy oil.

"Thank god for the people that are on our city council, our mayor and our county judge. They're all from this area. They know where the creeks went, and where they come out at, and where they were heading toward the lake,” Becky Naylor said in her radio interview.

"And Jimmy Joe Johnson automatically told 'em, 'hey this is gonna hit the out right over here by the side of the lake if we don't get to it.' So in 10 minutes, they were dumping sand and gravel to block it to keep from going into Lake Conway."


Unfortunately, it didn't work:
Quote:

Local wetlands experts say that oil is in the lake, and Exxon tweaks its message.

When ExxonMobil's Pegasus pipeline ruptured on March 29, the company announced that no oil had leaked into Lake Conway, a major recreational reservoir just nine-tenths of a mile from the spill site in central Arkansas.

Some oil had spilled into a "cove adjacent to" the lake, the company said, but "Lake Conway remains oil free," according to news releases Exxon issued as recently as April 5.

Arkansas Attorney General Dustin McDaniel told reporters, "I don't understand where this distinction is coming from. ...The cove is part of Lake Conway."

On Saturday, Exxon acknowledged that subtlety for the first time. "There is no oil in the main body of Lake Conway," according to a news release on Apr. 6—and an Exxon spokesperson on Tuesday.

Tiny streams carried diluted bitumen from Canada's oil sands region into the cove from the spill site in Mayflower, Ark., about 20 miles northeast of Little Rock. Dilbit is the same type of oil that would flow through the proposed Keystone XL pipeline.

The swampy area is separated from the main lake by State Highway 89 but connected by a pair of 48-inch metal pipes. Those pipes—called culverts—run under the road and drain excess water from the cove into the lake, so water doesn't spill over onto the highway.

After the spill, emergency workers quickly blocked the culverts. But local wetlands experts told InsideClimate News that crude from the cove will eventually pollute the rest of the lake, especially after the culverts are re-opened.

Hydrocarbons and toxic chemicals "will be leeching out into the surrounding environment over a period of years," said Ben Cash, a professor and the biology department chair at the University of Central Arkansas in Conway.

Cash is leading the state's efforts to rescue reptiles from the spill. He said that so far his team has recovered 20 snakes from the cove, out of the "hundreds or thousands" likely affected. Wildlife experts have also cleaned beavers, lizards, ducks, nutria and turtles, some of which have died. Cash didn't know how fish have been impacted.

"It's disingenuous to say that [the cove] is not part of Lake Conway," Cash said. "It absolutely is connected."

When dilbit sinks in water it is much more difficult to clean up than conventional crude, which usually floats.

Wabasca Heavy contains at least 10 types of hazardous constituents, including benzene, which increases the risk of cancer. It also contains toxic chemicals like N-hexane and naphthalene, according to a Material Data Safety Sheet that the Game and Fish Commission provided to cleanup crews. More at http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130410/cove-where-exxon-oil-has-be
en-found-part-lake-conway
]
Wellll, obviously Exxon was just confused, they weren't, like, LYING about oil getting into the lake, or anything. Obviously.


I'm sure they can keep it away from the "main body of the lake"--that's the main body of the lake, at the top of the photo. Far, far away, obviously...


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Sunday, April 14, 2013 9:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


And there's not that much oil, anyway, Exxon assures us:
Quote:

Since ExxonMobil’s Pegasus pipeline ruptured and leaked Canadian oil across an Arkansas suburb a week ago, the company has maintained that only "a few thousand barrels" spilled at the site.

"We've had no reason to change that at this stage," Exxon spokesman Charles Engelmann told InsideClimate News on Friday.

But earlier this week in the corrective action order it issued, the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA), part of the Department of Transportation, said the spill was 3,500 to 5,000 barrels.

Engelmann said Friday that "3,500 to 5,000 is not our number" and suggested that InsideClimate News ask PHMSA where those figures came from. A PHMSA spokeswoman confirmed that the higher figures came from ExxonMobil Pipeline Company (EMPCO).

Reports posted online by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency estimate the spill even higher—at 4,000 to 7,000 barrels—as much as 40 percent more.

Austin Vela, the EPA spokesman at the spill site, said the agency stands by its 4,000 to 7,000 barrel estimate. When asked why those higher numbers aren't being included in the daily press releases issued by the joint command of the cleanup operation, Vela did not respond. The joint command includes five EPA employees as well as ExxonMobil officials.

UPDATE: After this story was published, ExxonMobil updated the joint command incident report for Friday. The report now says that approximately 5,000 barrels of oil spilled in Mayflower.

Exxon has maintained tight control over the command operation in Mayflower, even though the EPA is the designated on-scene coordinator. On Wednesday, an Exxon employee threatened InsideClimate News reporter Lisa Song with arrest after she went to the command center in hopes of contacting the EPA and PHMSA employees who are working there. Until Thursday, the daily incident reports contained logos for ExxonMobil, the city of Mayflower and Faulkner Country, Ark.—but not for the EPA.

So far, Exxon has not made public what its pipeline monitoring system has recorded. These systems, standard in the industry, track the flow of oil from origin to destination, and when a leak occurs, can provide an estimate of the amount of oil that has gone missing into the environment. http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130405/exxon-oil-spill-could-be-40
-larger-company-estimates-epa-figures-show




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Sunday, April 14, 2013 9:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Aaaand last but not least, it would appear Exxon is in charge of ALL information, not just running the no-fly zone:
Quote:

At Oil Spill Cleanup in Arkansas, Exxon Running the Show, Not Federal Agencies

Jay Carney, White House spokesperson, said the EPA is the federal on-scene coordinator, but the reality on the ground is a different story.

MAYFLOWER, Ark.—A warehouse next to highway I-40 here at the edge of Mayflower, Ark., houses the command center for the ongoing cleanup of thousands of barrels of spilled Canadian heavy oil, but it is inaccessible to media.

Tightly controlled by ExxonMobil, which was responsible for the spill, access to even the parking lot is not permitted. A security guard now stops anyone without a red lanyard and ID badge from passing into the gated compound.

A request for a media tour of the spill site today was turned down by an Exxon spokesperson, who emerged from the command center to speak with a reporter at the gate. All areas being cleaned up so far have also been off limits. There is no central location where members of the media can gather to ask questions.

Exxon has said 120 company officials are on site, but it is unknown how many federal officials are on site. When InsideClimate News asked to speak with a government official inside the command center, Exxon spokeswoman Kim Jordan came out of the building to answer questions.

She confirmed that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA)—the federal pipeline regulator—were present. Later, in an email, she said she didn't have the names and contact information of everyone on site and directed interview requests to the agencies' public affairs offices.

The EPA and PHMSA did not return requests for information. A spokesman from the National Transportation Safety Board said the agency has not launched an investigation into the accident and has delegated responsibility to PHMSA. More at http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130402/oil-spill-cleanup-arkansas-
exxon-running-show-not-federal-agencies


To quote Mike: "in order to declare a no-fly zone, a corporation first needs to have a captive government in its pocket, willing to enforce whatever the company tells it to do."


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Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


It's BP redux, without the reflux.

Originally the government got in the middle of it, skewing the spill estimates developed by government scientists too low, calling the dispersant non-toxic when there was evidence it was, etc. Ever sensitive to public displeasure at BEING CAUGHT in the wrong (the reflux), the government has decided to cede the entire clean/cover-up to industry, staying compliantly out of the way as it mostly did with Macando (the redux).

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Monday, April 15, 2013 2:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Apparently Geezer has his own myopic schizophrenia, and cannot see that corporations fuck up and try to cover up their fuck-ups as well. Somehow, when they do it, it's all for the best, and the world is sweetness and light and baskets of puppies.



Now where did I say that?




Are we going on what people have actually SAID now? You shift the goalposts so often it's hard to keep up with what rules you're playing by from one moment to the next.

Huh. Because this response indicates your willingness to invent positions and to assign them to people, regardless of what they've actually SAID:

Quote:

You have no doubt that the corrupt government is complicit in conspiring with Exxon to cover up the Arkansas oil spill, yet this is the same government you believe would not be involved in gunwalking in the Fast and Furious fiasco, would not use universal NICS checks to create an illegal universal firearms registry, and will handle the Affordable Care Act responsibly while dealing with 'Big Pharma" the AMA, and the health insurance companies.



Can you please show us where Niki, Signy, I, Kiki, or anyone else here has said these things?

Or, to put it in words you actually SAID:

"I'd be interested in a cite for this claim."









"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, April 15, 2013 3:10 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Our government wouldn't put them in charge of our airspace, either, would they?



Once again, why not?

It's gonna be Exxon flying in that airspace to move people and equipment and do surveys. Having to coordinate every flight through the FAA is gonna create delays and slow down repairs.

Besides, the NOTAM was canceled on 4/3/13 around 8:00PM.

Go to this page - https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/notamRetrievalByICAOAction.do?me
thod=displayByNotamID


Under 'NOTAM search by number' enter ZME in the 'accountability or location' box, and 3 and 8699 in the two 'NOTAM number' boxes.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, April 15, 2013 5:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Once again, why not?
So, why doesn't the food industry inspect it's own food? While you're thinking about that...

Exxon has no compelling interest in ending the TFR. As far as they're concerned, it could go on forever because it doesn't impact their operations, so a permanent flight restriction over the area might be a slight positive for them overall. But the no-fly zone impacted a local airport and local air traffic as well as the spill zone itself. It's up to the government to represent and balance these competing interests, not Exxon- which represents only ONE of the interested parties.

I thought the answer would be self-evident.

Also, you can tell that the spill-information containment worked rather well... there are some pictures from on the ground (but only from two media organizations, as far as I can tell: Reuters and Nat Geo, and Nat Geo is not exactly a "breaking news" organization) and virtually none from the air. The most compelling ground video was filmed by residents. None of the MSM carried photos, and all of the info release was thru Exxon. How convenient (for Exxon).

The pipe rupture was 22 feet long. The spill was almost certainly larger than the various estimates being bandied about, given the 18-mile volume of pipe between the two isolation valves, but there will be no way to come up with a better estimate seeing as aerial data is virtually non-existant. (Altho I'm sure the Exxon copter took a bunch of videos). Arkansas was extremely fortunate that the rupture did not occur in the water supply watershed, because the same pipeline runs through that area too.

I guess that's what happens when you use 60+ year-old pipeline. But the lesson that the oil industry will take from this is not that they SHOULDN'T use deteriorated pipeline... Anyone care to bet that we will NOT see a massive program to dig up and replace old pipeline anytime soon? ... but that they know how to put information-containment into place even better than spill-containment.

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Monday, April 15, 2013 6:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you, Sig, you covered it excellently. And Kiki, "It's BP redux, without the reflux." I love it, and right on. Exactly the point I was trying to make. It's fine if Geezer wants to think our government isn't in bed with Big Oil, but how he can come to tha conclusion, having lived in this country and through numerous spills, ILLEGALITIES and--oh, remember those parties that came to light beween Bush government officials and BP? I guess he's forgotten all that, and everything else that's come to light which clearly shows the government has colluded over and over with oil companies. Ignorance can be bliss, I suppose, if that's the way you want to think...

The no-fly zone was lifted, as reported in what I posted; that changes nothing.

By the way, Sig, with regard to your mention of watershed:
Quote:

Arkansans Want Exxon Pipeline Moved Out of a Watershed, and Nebraskans Take Note.

People in Nebraska are asking: If a pipeline that already exists needs to be moved in Arkansas, why route the Keystone through the Ogallala aquifer?

The utility that supplies water to most of central Arkansas has been concerned for years about an oil pipeline that runs through the Lake Maumelle watershed. Now, spurred by a March 29 rupture on the line, it wants ExxonMobil to move the line out of its management area.

"It's not a new issue to us," said John Tynan, watershed protection manager for Central Arkansas Water. "We've been working to mitigate the [pipeline's] risks, recognizing that the only way to eliminate the risks is to move the pipeline out of the watershed ... It's one of those things that's been ever-present in terms of options."

As the cleanup in Arkansas continues, residents of Nebraska are watching from afar and worrying about the proposed Keystone XL pipeline, which would carry Canadian crude across the Ogallala aquifer that supplies most of their irrigation and drinking water.

About 13 miles of the pipeline pass through the lake's watershed, so Tynan said the utility has a "heightened awareness" of the spill's effects.

Utility employees are drafting letters asking Exxon to dig up and move the 13.5-mile segment of pipeline out of the watershed, Tynan said. The utility's board of commissioners has already discussed how best to approach the issue with Exxon, and the board will meet again on Thursday to discuss its request.

An ExxonMobil spokesman said he could not immediately respond to questions about the utility's request, because the company is focused on the Mayflower cleanup and response.

This isn't the first time Central Arkansas Water has asked that the pipeline be moved.

Lake Maumelle was built in 1957 on top of the pipeline, which was constructed about a decade earlier. In 1958, the utility reached an agreement with Magnolia Pipeline Company, which owned the line at the time, to move it out of the lake.

But over the years, the utility continued to worry about the line's proximity to its water source. In some areas, the Pegasus runs just 600 feet from the edge of the lake. It also crosses the lake's tributaries at least four times. More at http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130409/arkansans-want-exxon-pipeli
ne-moved-out-watershed-and-nebraskans-take-note
]
These guys seem to be doing the most thorough job of covering the issue, and have been digging deeper than anything I can find from the MSM.

As to your mention of 60+ -year-old pipeline, they've been delving into that, too:
Quote:

The Arkansas spill has fueled arguments on both side of the Keystone XL debate. Pipeline opponents say the Arkansas spill demonstrates the risks of approving Keystone, which would transport up to 830,000 barrels of oil a day—nearly 10 times the capacity of the 65-year old Pegasus line.

But Keystone's supporters say the Keystone will reduce the risk posed by the nation's aging pipeline infrastructure, because it would be a brand new pipeline equipped with state-of-the-art technology.

The age of the pipeline provides an easy target, said Richard Kuprewicz, president of the pipeline-consulting firm Accufacts Inc. But that focus is "factually wrong" because the quality of a pipeline's maintenance—not just a pipeline's age—determines whether it's safe or not, he said.

"I can give you examples of new pipelines—multi-billion dollar projects—with no quality control, and they're junk. And there are pipes that are 40 to 50 years old, and the operators are doing all the right things, and they're better than new," Kuprewicz said.

"Steel pipe technically doesn't wear out. If you maintain the integrity and reassess [the risks], it will take a lot of abuse and pressure. But if you don't identify or deal with a certain threat, then the pipe can fail."

Little information is available about the Pegasus line's maintenance history. . The results of its last in-line inspection, conducted in February, are still being analyzed. A spokesman for the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration, the federal regulator, said the inspection data will help inform the agency's investigation of the spill.

Arkansas Attorney General Dustin McDaniel has launched a separate investigation of the incident. Last Thursday, McDaniel issued a subpoena ordering ExxonMobil to provide his office with inspection reports and other documents connected with the pipeline's maintenance and history. http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130409/arkansans-want-exxon-pipeli
ne-moved-out-watershed-and-nebraskans-take-note?page=2
]
And now there are these guys:
Quote:

The oil industry knows heavy oil is more corrosive than sweet crude, and MesoCoat says it has pipe-coating technology to solve the problem.

An upstart company in Ohio is aiming to disrupt the oil pipeline business with new technology that resists corrosion far more effectively than conventional pipe.

MesoCoat, Inc. says its technology will become especially crucial as global oil production shifts to more sulfurous and heavier fuels like tar sands crude. It claims it can make pipelines safer from potential leaks and save oil companies hundreds of millions of dollars by reducing the frequency of replacing corroded pipes. LOTS more on that at http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130408/upstart-pipeline-company-st
aking-its-future-stopping-heavy-oil-corrosion
]
A comment on the previous article about "new" pipeline reads:
Quote:

"Brand New" I've seen photos taken from inside the "new and improved" pipes. With light seeping through welds, it's not pretty. See "Use of Substandard Steel by the U.S. Pipeline" Bitumen is anything but conventional.

The article referenced can be found at http://plainsjustice.org/files/SubstandardSteelReport.pdf] . It's quite an eye-opener...

As for our government, there's also
Quote:

Federal Rules Don't Control Pipeline Reversals Like Exxon's Burst Pegasus.

The Pegasus pipeline that ruptured and spilled thousands of gallons of tar sands crude in Mayflower was 65 years old, and was initially built to carry thinner oil at lower pressure in the opposite direction than today.

But seven years ago, when Exxon, the pipeline's operator, turned it into a higher-volume line for diluted bitumen from Canada flowing under greater pressure to refineries on the Gulf Coast, federal rules did not require a permit application or safety reviews, according to federal officials.

"Our regulations don't specify how much product a pipeline carries. There is no regulation if they want to change the type of crude they carry," said Damon Hill, a spokesman for the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration, a part of the Transportation Department. More at http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20130403/federal-rules-dont-control-
pipeline-reversals-exxons-burst-pegasus


All that should just make you feel warm and fuzzy all over...I know it does ME, and I'm sure Geezer's not concerned, since from what he writes he seems to trust Exxon so much...


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Monday, April 15, 2013 8:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Here are a few facts of interest that sum up some of the important issues:

1. It's Not Your Average Crude

That it is actually Wabasca Heavy, a type of diluted bitumen, or "dilbit" has already been highlighted, above. It's a whole different animal, a much more dangerous and toxic one, harder to clean up, and it's what the Keystone would carry.

2. It's Not Your Average Pipeline

The Pegasus pipeline running more than 850 miles between Patoka, Illinois and Nederland, Texas, is 20 inches in diameter and was built in the 1940s to carry crude from Texas to Illinois. But in 2006 the flow was reversed in order to carry Canadian tar sands to Texas. As Ben Jervey wrote for DeSmog blog, the flow was reversed to “help relieve the tar sands crude bottleneck in Cushing, Oklahoma. (The same reason given by proponents for the construction of Keystone XL.)”

The pipeline was built to carry 65,000 barrels a day, but Exxon was allowed to expand that to 95,000 barrels a day just a few years ago.

Originally, Exxon claimed “As far as reversing the flow of a pipeline, it is not a safety issue.” But after Michigan’s disasterous Kalamazoo River Spill in 2010, noting that the pipeline’s flow was reversed in 2006 so that it could carry Canadian tar sands crude 850 miles from Illinois to Texas, the agency’s corrective action order remarked that “a change in the direction of flow can affect the hydraulic and stress demands on the pipeline.” Gee, y'think?

3. Is the Cleanup Tax Exempt?

Who’s footing the bill for the cleanup? The government has an Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund that companies which transport oil must pay into. But, as it turns out, the bitumen that Exxon was transporting in its pipeline isn’t oil by government standards:
Quote:

In a January 2011 memorandum, the IRS determined that to generate revenues for the oil spill trust fund, Congress only intended to tax conventional crude, and not tar sands or other unconventional oils. This exemption remains to this day, even though the United States moves billions of gallons of tar sands crude through its pipeline system every year. The trust fund is liable for tar sands oil spill cleanups without collecting any revenue from tar sands transport. If the fund goes broke, the American taxpayer foots the cleanup bill.

Who do you think is gonna end up with the bill?

4. No Media Access

The stakes are high and Exxon is running the show here, with federal agencies so far publicly invisible. The phone number of the command center in Mayflower goes to an ExxonMobil answering service based in Texas, and each day it is Exxon that distributes a unified command press release–which contains the logos of Exxon, Faulkner County and the city of Mayflower–with official updates on the progress of the cleanup. A request for a media tour of the spill site today was turned down by an Exxon spokesperson, who emerged from the command center to speak with a reporter at the gate. All areas being cleaned up so far have also been off limits. There is no central location where members of the media can gather to ask questions.

BP’s Deepwater Horizon disaster all over again.

By the way, according to:
Quote:

McDaniel acknowledges the spill is a PR disaster for Exxon Mobile. He referenced the no-fly zone...McDaniel says he spent most of the day yesterday trying to figure out why the no-fly zone was created. http://www.katv.com/story/21889151/mcdaniel-there-is-oil-in-lake-conwa
y
]

5. Who's In Charge of the Cleanup?

Arkansas’ Attorney General Dustin McDaniel has contracted out the “independent analysis of the cleanup” of the ExxonMobil Pegasus tar sands pipeline spill to Witt O’Brien’s, a firm with a history of oil spill cover-ups.

McDaniel also provided the media with a presser explaining that his office had "retained the assistance of Witt O’Brien’s, a firm whose experts will immediately begin an independent analysis of the cleanup process."

Witt O'Brien's describes itself as a "global leader in preparedness, crisis management and disaster response and recovery with the depth of experience and capability to provide services across the crisis and disaster life cycle."

But the firm's actual performance record isn't quite so glowing. O'Brien's has had its hands in the botched clean-up efforts of almost every high-profile oil spill disaster in recent U.S. history, including the Exxon Valdez spill, the BP Deepwater Horizon spill, the Enbridge tar sands pipeline spill into the Kalamazoo River, and Hurricane Sandy.

O'Brien's was hired for cleanup duties of the worst inland pipeline spill in U.S. history, the Enbridge. A whistleblower later revealed that O'Brien's engaged in a literal cover-up on behalf of Enbridge:
Quote:

On...September 6, [2010], Jason Buford, a representative from O’Brien’s Response Management...called a meeting...[and] directed [a] crew to go through the woods, thin out oily debris, and mix mud into the remaining oil so that the EPA would clear the site.

“I want you to spread out the oil. Rake it into the soil. Cover it with grass. Cover it with leaves. I want you to hide it -- to dupe the EPA and the (Michigan Department of Natural Resources).”

Seacor Environmental Services, which owns Witt O'Brien's, was one of the parties responsible for spraying the toxic chemical oil dispersant Corexit into the Gulf of Mexico during the BP Deepwater Horizon blowout, according to an Aug. 2010 story in The Wall Street Journal.

Anne Landman, writing for PR Watch, explained that Corexit does not actually clean up oceanic spills.
Quote:

BP's Web site gives the impression that dispersants "clean and control" ocean oil spills by putting the oil in a state where "it becomes a feast for the naturally-occurring microbes that inhabit the ocean." But dispersants do not clean the water, nor do they remove oil at all, but rather re-arrange where it exists, and change where it goes.

Corexit was also applied during the Exxon Valdez oil spill, a disaster response O'Brien's helped oversee, according to its website. (Excerpts from http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/04/13/arkansas-private-contractor-mayfl
ower-tar-sands-spill-keystone-xl
, complete with cites
)

It goes on and on. Oil from the Mayflower spill is now officially IN the lake, by the way:
Quote:

Is there oil in Lake Conway?

"I don't understand where this distinction is coming from, from the cove and Lake Conway. The cove is part of Lake Conway…The water is all part of one body of water.

"I think it's very fair to say that Lake Conway has not received catastrophic damage, but of course there is oil in Lake Conway." http://www.katv.com/story/21889151/mcdaniel-there-is-oil-in-lake-conwa
y
]
If you doubt him:
Quote:

Storm hits Mayflower, Arkansas site of Exxon oil spill. Contaminated water pumped into Lake Conway

A manmade disaster was made even worse by nature Wednesday night, as a severe thunderstorm hit Mayflower, Arkansas spreading the Exxon Mobil oil spill to the yards of homes along the cove and the main body of Lake Conway.

Even during the first few days following the spill, due to rain, water was pumped from the contaminated cove to the main body of Lake Conway to keep the cove from flooding homes or the highway.

Images captured Wednesday night should put any doubt to rest that the main body of Lake Conway is now contaminated with oil. Two pumps on the cove-side of Highway 89, used to protect the homes from flooding, were turned on during the storm.

Here is the water being pumped out of the contaminated cove into the main body of Lake Conway. As you can see, there is one string of boom in the path of the water, but the flow pressure is so strong it is blowing right under and over the boom.


From http://www.treehugger.com/energy-disasters/happening-now-storm-hits-ma
yflower-arkansas-causing-exxons-oil-spill-spread-yards-and-lake-conway.html



6. What Will Be the Effects on Keystone XL?

Just days before the Arkansas spill, a coalition of environmental groups, led by the National Wildlife Federation, as well as landowners, and others filed a petition with the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration and the EPA, calling on them to enact stronger safety regulations for pipelines carrying tar sands oil. The petition may well pick up more backers in the spill’s aftermath.


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Monday, April 15, 2013 7:39 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And to my mind, it's not just the age, maintenance, and operation of the pipeline. Corporate policy and interests aside, there's the human factor, as exemplified by the Alaska pipeline:

"Alaska Image Gallery

You can get some sense of what would happen if the pipeline blew up by looking at a microcosmic event that occurred in October 2001. A hunter, apparently inebriated, shot the Alaska pipeline with a hunting rifle and punctured it. A bullet would not make a very big hole -- maybe the size of a dime. Because of the pressure, however, 120 gallons of oil per minute sprayed out of the hole. Over the course of 36 hours, the pipeline was shut down and the oil had to be drained from the punctured section so that it could be repaired. But in that 36 hours, over 300,000 gallons of oil sprayed onto the trees and ground around the puncture, creating a massive spill.

If someone were to blow up the pipeline, it would make the mess from a tiny bullet hole look like a pinprick. Assume that officials reacted quickly after the blast, shut down the pipeline, closed valves to block back-flowing oil, and had everything under control in 24 hours. Something like 40 million gallons of oil would be lying on the ground. That's enough oil to fill 40,000 swimming pools."

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Tuesday, April 16, 2013 2:01 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Apparently Geezer has his own myopic schizophrenia, and cannot see that corporations fuck up and try to cover up their fuck-ups as well. Somehow, when they do it, it's all for the best, and the world is sweetness and light and baskets of puppies.



Now where did I say that?




Are we going on what people have actually SAID now? You shift the goalposts so often it's hard to keep up with what rules you're playing by from one moment to the next.

Huh. Because this response indicates your willingness to invent positions and to assign them to people, regardless of what they've actually SAID:

Quote:

You have no doubt that the corrupt government is complicit in conspiring with Exxon to cover up the Arkansas oil spill, yet this is the same government you believe would not be involved in gunwalking in the Fast and Furious fiasco, would not use universal NICS checks to create an illegal universal firearms registry, and will handle the Affordable Care Act responsibly while dealing with 'Big Pharma" the AMA, and the health insurance companies.



Can you please show us where Niki, Signy, I, Kiki, or anyone else here has said these things?

Or, to put it in words you actually SAID:

"I'd be interested in a cite for this claim."









"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."






So Geezer, when asked for cites for his claims, runs away or changes the subject.

Who could have predicted that?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, April 16, 2013 2:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Once again, why not?
So, why doesn't the food industry inspect it's own food? While you're thinking about that...



And this has what to do with the NOTAM and flight restrictions?

Quote:

Exxon has no compelling interest in ending the TFR. As far as they're concerned, it could go on forever because it doesn't impact their operations, so a permanent flight restriction over the area might be a slight positive for them overall.


Well, since the NOTAM was canceled after a bit more than two days, as noted above, that line of 'reasoning' is pretty much out the window.

Quote:

Also, you can tell that the spill- information containment worked rather well... there are some pictures from on the ground (but only from two media organizations, as far as I can tell: Reuters and Nat Geo, and Nat Geo is not exactly a "breaking news" organization) and virtually none from the air. The most compelling ground video was filmed by residents. None of the MSM carried photos, and all of the info release was thru Exxon. How convenient (for Exxon).


Then maybe you should say something about the MSM. They certainly have the equipment to get aerial photos from the 1000ft altitude restriction in the NOTAM, and if Nat Geo and Reuters could get ground level photos, the networks could get video.

Quote:

The pipe rupture was 22 feet long. The spill was almost certainly larger than the various estimates being bandied about, given the 18-mile volume of pipe between the two isolation valves, but there will be no way to come up with a better estimate seeing as aerial data is virtually non-existant. (Altho I'm sure the Exxon copter took a bunch of videos). Arkansas was extremely fortunate that the rupture did not occur in the water supply watershed, because the same pipeline runs through that area too.

I guess that's what happens when you use 60+ year-old pipeline. But the lesson that the oil industry will take from this is not that they SHOULDN'T use deteriorated pipeline... Anyone care to bet that we will NOT see a massive program to dig up and replace old pipeline anytime soon? ... but that they know how to put information-containment into place even better than spill-containment.



And none of this has anything to do with my argument, which is simply that the FAA/Exxon 'no-fly zone' story is conspiracy fantasy at its best.

As noted above, I figure Exxon should pay for cleanup and remediation, and a hefty fine for failure to properly maintain thair pipeline. Looks like you let your preconceptions blind you to what I actually say, yet again.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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