REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Worst Year in Washington

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Friday, December 20, 2013 16:15
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Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:09 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

All year long, I pick the winners of the Worst Week in Washington prize — those politicians, bureaucrats, sports stars, business leaders and other inhabitants of Planet Beltway who stand out for all the wrong reasons. During 2013, the honorees have ranged from the president to the president’s dog, from meteorologists to comedians, from Supreme Court justices to NFL head coaches (well, mainly one NFL head coach).

Winning the Worst Week in Washington is one thing. To win the Worst Year in Washington, you need to be very good at being very bad, or have really bad luck. Previous Worst Year winners have included then-Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele (remember him?), the tea party movement (always a contender) and Congress (yes, all of it).

This past year offered plenty of candidates, but who is most deserving of this least desirable recognition? (Hint: He’s still in power but has little of it these days.) I also decide who had a really bad year, merely a bad year, a not-so-good year, a good year and, yes, who had the best year in Washington. Let me know, in the comments section or on Twitter (#worstyear), if you agree.


Squandering the chance to build a legacy

When historians write the story of Barack Obama’s presidency, 2013 will be his lost year. It opened with great promise and closed with equally great disappointment. In a year that could have been about building his legacy, the president was instead reduced to salvaging the signature accomplishment of his first term.

The chasm between what was expected and what was delivered was evident in the precipitous drop in Obama’s approval ratings throughout 2013, all the way down to George-W.-Bush-second-term territory. Dashed expectations sent Democrats up for reelection in 2014 fleeing for cover and comforted Republicans still smarting from their party’s 2012 defeat.

Second-term presidencies are tricky. The pace of modern politics and the desire of journalists (scourges!) to always look ahead to the next campaign put a reelected incumbent in a race against irrelevancy from the second he is sworn in again. Scandals tend to creep in or escalate — Watergate, Iran-Contra, Monica Lewinsky — and investigations follow, often drifting far afield. Momentum toward any meaningful achievement fades.

Usually, a president has until the midterm elections of his second term to get big things done; after that, attention moves on to deciding who will next occupy 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. But Obama may not have the luxury of even that truncated timeline. The split control in Congress — Democrats in charge in the Senate, a Republican majority in the House — combined with the tea party’s continued demand for conservative purity from its elected officials and the politicization of just about everything makes it hard to imagine that 2014 will afford Obama any chance to move his agenda through Congress. And his addition of John Podesta, a vocal advocate of taking executive action to end-run lawmakers, to the White House staff suggests that the president has effectively given up trying to work with the Hill.

All of which makes what happened — or more accurately, what didn’t happen — in 2013 that much more dire for Obama’s chances of leaving a lasting legacy on his party, Washington and politics more broadly.

Let’s start from the beginning, or a bit earlier. Despite a tenuous economic recovery and an unpopular health-care law, Obama surged to a convincing win in November 2012. The victory gave him a mandate to continue in the vein of his first four years, as well as providing a damning assessment of the GOP’s ability to attract any voters other than white men.

Obama used that momentum to cut a favorable deal with Republicans to avert the “fiscal cliff,” and he was able to unite the country after the horrific murder of 20 children and six adults at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn.

On Jan. 1, then, it wasn’t difficult to imagine the passage of a broad gun-control measure, an immigration reform package, and a series of bills addressing the country’s debt and spending issues. The reasons none of these things came to be all lead back to Obama.



First came the scandals.

The Internal Revenue Service acknowledged that it had targeted tea party groups’ applications for nonprofit, tax-exempt status and subjected them to heightened scrutiny, giving Republicans a way to rally their base after a dispiriting election.

Edward Snowden’s leaks of scads of classified materials detailing the vastness of the National Security Agency’s spying operation not only put Obama on his heels for months but badly damaged his credibility with U.S. allies such as Germany and Brazil.

Republicans insisted that the Obama administration had covered up information about who knew what and when regarding the Sept. 11, 2012, attack in Benghazi, Libya, which left a U.S. ambassador and three other Americans dead. Then-Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton delivered high-profile testimony before Congress, and the attack got so politicized that it squashed U.N. Ambassador Susan E. Rice’s chances to succeed Clinton at State.

And then there was the Affordable Care Act, the single biggest achievement of the president’s five years in office. The rollout of the federal health insurance exchange, one of the law’s key elements, was a complete failure — even though we didn’t realize it until Republicans reversed course on their own massive political flub and reopened the federal government after a 16-day shutdown. (The GOP’s lack of any coherent strategy may have been the only silver lining in Obama’s year.) On top of that, Obama’s oft-repeated pledge that “if you like your insurance, you can keep it” wasn’t, well, true — Politifact even deemed it the “Lie of the Year.” He later made a public apology.

As if the self-inflicted wounds and scandals everywhere weren’t enough to ensure the demise of Obama’s agenda, Republicans in Washington spent 2013 in a public slap fight over the direction of their party. Even if the president had been able to extricate himself from the problems that cropped up throughout the year, it became abundantly clear early on that there was not one Republican with whom he could negotiate, whether on guns, immigration or anything else.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.) — he of the fiscal cliff agreement — was loath to associate himself too closely with anything that reeked of bipartisanship as he dealt with a conservative primary challenge back home. (McConnell did ultimately step in and cut the deal that ended the government shutdown, a mercy killing for his side.) Speaker John Boehner couldn’t lead House Republicans anywhere as the tea party wing repeatedly rebelled against him (on the farm bill, Hurricane Sandy relief, the Violence Against Women Act reauthorization and so on), leaving him speaker in name only.

Add it all up, and you get the least-productive Congress in history (only 55 bills have been passed by both chambers and signed into law this year); the least-popular Congress in history (Nickelback, used-car salesmen and political reporters are all liked more ); and a president most Americans no longer like or, perhaps more important, trust.

Yes, the economy is showing signs of improving. And yes, enrollment on HealthCare.gov is soaring compared with the first few weeks. Those facts provide hope for those who believe that 2014 will be better for Obama.

But 2013 is almost gone and with it the president’s best chance for a lasting legacy. The damage done to Obama’s brand will linger well beyond this calendar year. There are no second chances in presidential tenures. Barack Obama, for wasting a year torpedoing your legacy, you had the worst year in Washington. Congrats, or something.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/opinions/2013/12/13/worst-year-in-was
hington
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Monday, December 16, 2013 3:07 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Author Chris Cillizza. This from WIKI tells me all I need to know about how meaningful his insights are:

Dana Milbank and Chris Cillizza appeared in a series of humor videos called "Mouthpiece Theater" which appeared on the Washington Post's website. An outcry followed a video in which, during a discussion of the White House "Beer Summit", they chose new brands for a number of people, including "Mad Bitch Beer" for Hillary Rodham Clinton. Both men apologized for the video and the series was canceled.[4]




As evidence of "rape mentality"

Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is

whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies.


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Monday, December 16, 2013 8:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Kill the messenger, Kiki?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, December 16, 2013 1:55 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I don't know why I'm supposed to care about this guy's opinion.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, December 16, 2013 2:52 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Kill the messenger, Kiki?



Looking at the background of the author is now "killing the messenger?"

Is there anything you don't whine about?




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, December 16, 2013 4:14 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Kill the messenger, Kiki?



Looking at the background of the author is now "killing the messenger?"



When you have nothing to say about what he wrote, but instead try to make out that he's biased, and despite the fact that the Washington Post editorial board isn't gonna let him go with a major article in their paper without checking it our pretty well...

Yep. I'd say that's killing the messenger.

You have any comments on the points he raised, or will you also just try to change the subject?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, December 16, 2013 4:37 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Kill the messenger, Kiki?



Looking at the background of the author is now "killing the messenger?"



When you have nothing to say about what he wrote, but instead try to make out that he's biased, and despite the fact that the Washington Post editorial board isn't gonna let him go with a major article in their paper without checking it our pretty well...

Yep. I'd say that's killing the messenger.

You have any comments on the points he raised, or will you also just try to change the subject?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."



The suggestion is that:

1. The Washington Post would never allow bias (or anti-Obama bias?) in their opinion pieces
2. That we shouldn't check the credibility/biases of sources
3. That we should care what one man, biased or not, thinks of Pres. Obama

Why don't YOU say what YOU think is valid and noteworthy in this article Geezer?

I'm probably as big an Obama fan as anyone here, but is it supposed to stop me in my tracks if one random journalist thinks Obama has failed in his presidency?

*shrug*

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, December 16, 2013 10:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
The suggestion is that:

1. The Washington Post would never allow bias (or anti-Obama bias?) in their opinion pieces



No. The suggestion is that the Washington Post wouldn't allow untruths. Is anything that the article said untrue? Please elucidate.

Quote:

2. That we shouldn't check the credibility/biases of sources

Is one joke about Hillary Clinton overwhelming evidence of bias? Are you also accusing the Washington Post of anti-Obama bias? Show a pattern of bias by the Post or the author of this article, and then maybe you have a point. As of now, not so much.

Quote:

3. That we should care what one man, biased or not, thinks of Pres. Obama

When it's one man who has the editorial backing of the Washington Post, maybe you could consider it.

Quote:

Why don't YOU say what YOU think is valid and noteworthy in this article Geezer?


I posted it, so I think it's at least worthy of discussion, not complete dismissal.

Did or did not Pres. Obama say on multiple occasions that if folks wanted to keep their insurance, that they could? Did or did not the Healthcare.gov website fail in its rollout? Did or did not the IRS target Tea Party tax-exempt applications? Isn't the NSA spying on pretty much everyone? It's not Bush's watch anymore. It's Obama's. If he doesn't deal with this stuff, who's supposed to?

Quote:

I'm probably as big an Obama fan as anyone here, but is it supposed to stop me in my tracks if one random journalist thinks Obama has failed in his presidency?


Maybe it should make you reevaluate your position.

You're doing the same thing Kiki did. You're trying to kill the messenger rather than addressing the points he made.

Address his points.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, December 16, 2013 11:05 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
The suggestion is that:

1. The Washington Post would never allow bias (or anti-Obama bias?) in their opinion pieces


No.


Actually that was the suggestion. Nobody accused the man of lying/being prone to factual inaccuracies.

Quote:

Is anything that the article said untrue?

It's opinion. I could say some things that I think are untrue, but that would only be my opinion.

Quote:

Is one joke about Hillary Clinton overwhelming evidence of bias?

I'm personally not questioning his bias. I don't care. But if others want to, you shouldn't accuse them of 'killing the messenger' for doing so.

Quote:

Did or did not Pres. Obama say on multiple occasions that if folks wanted to keep their insurance, that they could? Did or did not the Healthcare.gov website fail in its rollout? Did or did not...

Sure, but what conclusions must be drawn from all that? That Obama is not perfect? That he is a terrible president? Somewhere in between? It's all a matter of the importance you attach to all those things, as well as all the other things we can judge Obama for. Every man and woman will have a different opinion. This is one man's opinion. So?

Quote:

When it's one man who has the editorial backing of the Washington Post, maybe you could consider it.

Why? Seriously, why?

And btw, I've seen the WaPo 'back' conservative opinion numerous times. Usually when you post it here. I don't know what point you're making going on about the Washington Post.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, December 16, 2013 11:30 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
The suggestion is that:

1. The Washington Post would never allow bias (or anti-Obama bias?) in their opinion pieces


No.


Actually that was the suggestion. Nobody accused the man of lying/being prone to factual inaccuracies.



Interesting. You're not accusing him of lying or being prone to factual inaccuracies, but because he might be biased, his truthful, factually accurate statements have no validity?

Quote:

Quote:

Is anything that the article said untrue?

It's opinion. I could say some things that I think are untrue, but that would only be my opinion.



No. Pres. Obama did state folks could keep their insurance. The healthcare.gov site rollout was a failure. The NSA is monitoring citizens' phones. The IRS did target conservative organizations' applications. These are facts, not opinions.

Quote:

Quote:

Is one joke about Hillary Clinton overwhelming evidence of bias?

I'm personally not questioning his bias. I don't care. But if others want to, you shouldn't accuse them of 'killing the messenger' for doing so.



Why not? That's what they're doing when they ignore the content of the story and attack the author. That's what you're doing as well.

Quote:

Quote:

Did or did not Pres. Obama say on multiple occasions that if folks wanted to keep their insurance, that they could? Did or did not the Healthcare.gov website fail in its rollout? Did or did not...

Sure, but what conclusions must be drawn from all that? That Obama is not perfect? That he is a terrible president? Somewhere in between? It's all a matter of the importance you attach to all those things, as well as all the other things we can judge Obama for. Every man and woman will have a different opinion. This is one man's opinion. So?



No. This is one man, and one newspaper, noting the objective failures of the Obama administration. Or are you saying that the "you can keep your insurance" statement, the failed healthcare.gov rollout, the IRS targeting, etc. never happened?

Quote:

Quote:

When it's one man who has the editorial backing of the Washington Post, maybe you could consider it.

Why? Seriously, why?

And btw, I've seen the WaPo 'back' conservative opinion numerous times. Usually when you post it here. I don't know what point you're making going on about the Washington Post.



No. They're being honest enough to point out failures in the administration when they occur.

And I'm still asking for a rebuttal of the points made in the article, rather than excuses to ignore them.

Got any?



"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, December 16, 2013 11:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Is anything that the article said untrue?"

Why, yes, there's a lot that's untrue.


"Please elucidate."

I won't go through all of it, but right at the very top he writes this:
All year long, I pick the winners of the Worst Week in Washington prize — those politicians, bureaucrats, sports stars, business leaders and other inhabitants of Planet Beltway who stand out for all the wrong reasons. ... Winning the Worst Week in Washington is one thing. To win the Worst Year in Washington, you need to be very good at being very bad ... I also decide who had a really bad year, merely a bad year, a not-so-good year, a good year and, yes, who had the best year in Washington. ... When historians write the story of Barack Obama’s presidency, 2013 will be his lost year.
So, how does he know that in fact those people he picks are the real winners of the 'worst' prize? mere wannabes? hangers on? Is he god? Does he know everything that's going on right now? That went on over the last day? week? year? And can he foresee 1000 years into the future and know for a fact what historians will conclude? 100 years? 5?

What >> IS << his claim to THE TRUTH? Why are his picks meaningful? Well, his claim to pick winners - in fact is false. He's only spouting an opinion - his personal opinion no less - that he merely claims is real. Oops. NOT ACTUALLY THE TRUTH.

But maybe you have rappy's disease. Named for an obscure internet person who never distinguished fact from opinion.



"Is one joke about Hillary Clinton overwhelming evidence of bias?"

That wasn't the point I made. That wasn't even the point KPO made. When you can address what we posted, I'll get back to you.


"When it's one man who has the editorial backing of the Washington Post, maybe you could consider it."

Is this an appeal to authority I see? From someone who claims to be an anarchist? Aside from which, they'll print anybody. Even Charles Krauthammer. The Wash Post doesn't actually endorse those opinions btw. I hope you were under no illusion about that.



As evidence of "rape mentality"

Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is

whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies.


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Tuesday, December 17, 2013 1:43 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Interesting. You're not accusing him of lying or being prone to factual inaccuracies, but because he might be biased, his truthful, factually accurate statements have no validity?

I don't think I've once called him biased, and I'm not disputing his facts, but his opinion based on those facts. The title of the article is 'Worst year in Washington', and it is given to Obama. This is completely subjective and can not be termed as a 'fact'.

Quote:

Pres. Obama did state folks could keep their insurance. The healthcare.gov site rollout was a failure. The NSA is monitoring citizens' phones. The IRS did target conservative organizations' applications. These are facts, not opinions.

These are not new facts. These facts have been well discussed. What's new is the opinion that he gives based on those facts. And that is just his opinion.

Quote:

That's what they're doing when they ignore the content of the story and attack the author.

If Rush Limbaugh wrote an article decreeing that Obama is the worst president in history, would we be allowed to point out that Rush Limbaugh is a prominent right-wing pundit and Obama critic? Would that be shooting the messenger? Would we have to treat the article seriously, as if it were written by a respected, impartial political historian?

Quote:

That's what you're doing as well.

No it's not. I'm just defending others' right to do so.

Quote:

This is one man, and one newspaper, noting the objective failures of the Obama administration.

No, it's one man giving his opinion that Obama had the worst year in Washington, and using facts to defend his subjective opinion.

Quote:

"And btw, I've seen the WaPo 'back' conservative opinion numerous times. Usually when you post it here. I don't know what point you're making going on about the Washington Post."


No.


What do you mean, 'no'. There are conservative columnists at the WaPo. That's not opinion - that's fact.

Quote:

And I'm still asking for a rebuttal of the points made in the article, rather than excuses to ignore them.

I only skim read the article before, so I went back and read it more fully. It's not as bad as I first thought. 'Worst year' is a pretty meaningless accolade. You can have a bad year for numerous reasons, that may or may not be your fault. You could be diagnosed with cancer, or struck by lightning, and that would be a bad year. Undoubtedly, yes, Obama has had a bad year. Worst year in Washington? I've no idea. I suspect Obama wins these kinds of awards (like lie of the year) partly because of his status as president.

As for rebutting the article... I don't feel strongly that what the guy is saying is wrong, or that it's particularly meaningful, so why bother rebutting it?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:52 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, I didn't read this entire thread, wasn't worth it, but I'll express my opinion. I've never had any particular problem with Cilliza, tho' I don't know much about his background and haven't watched political TV for a long time now. But as to the article itself,...there are shadings I'd disagree with, but my arguments against it are that it highlighted the wrong things and wasn't logical. My main disagreement would be with his idea that this year's debacles kill any chances of a "legacy"; I think the ACA and any number of other things Obama has accomplished will live on, just as SSI and Medicare have. What WON'T live on are all the things he failed to do, and those I fault him with. But there's plenty in the legacy, even aside from the ACA, which will be remembered historically.

The only posts I read all the way through after Geezer and Kiki got into it were KPO's, and I found pretty much everything he wrote, I agree with. The one thing that especially struck me was that yes, Geezer WAS essentially making the point that "The Washington Post would never allow bias (or anti-Obama bias?) in their opinion pieces." It seems to me he put this up as his usual anti-left, anti-Obama material, and wants to claim that 'cuz it comes from the WaPo, it HAS to be validly left-leaning. That's bullshit. WaPo, like many other source (including, on rare occasion, even FauxNews) puts up OPINION PIECES from both sides. WaPo is in general leftish, unquestionably, but I've read a lot of editorials from the right there, so the intimation that because it comes from WaPo, it must be a "valid" opinion from "the left" is ridiculous. "When it's one man who has the editorial backing of the Washington Post, maybe you could consider it" is absurd. Nobody has the "backing" of WaPo because they published an editorial piece by them. Have to remember that next time FauxNews publishes some editorial criticizing the right (yes, it has happened, albeit incredibly rarely), that will mean whatever's written has the "editorial backing of Fox News".

I also believe in looking at backgrounds of authors, especially when something is extremely slanted one way or another. Basically, I didn't view this article as all that slanted, personally, it makes some realistic points against both left AND right, and certainly agree that Obama had the worst year in Washington. So did the country, unfortunately, and that wasn't Obama's fault.

I'm quite willing to address the article. I found "Usually, a president has until the midterm elections of his second term to get big things done" totally illogical; there's never been a President in history who had THAT long to get "big things" done; it's pretty much accepted that, at best, they have the first two years of their FIRST term. And of course absolutely no attention is given to the fact that the Republicans met while Obama was being inaugurated and decided then and there to obstruct him in every way possible, which they have continued to do consistently. To lay everything at Obama's feet is just plain silly.

The scandals? Not a one of them was Obama's doing personally. Of course, the President gets blamed for everything that goes wrong, and trying to get anything done when scandals keep cropping up certainly makes legislating difficult. But the only thing Geezer seems to focus on is that the President "lied". He keeps going back to that, despite the fact that the grays around THAT one have been debated into the ground. If that's the only thing Geezer gets out of this, that's pretty sad.

Cilliza's claim that "The reasons none of these things came to be all lead back to Obama" is one I find utterly laughable, particularly because he never follows up to explain it. He adresses it himself with "Even if the president had been able to extricate himself from the problems that cropped up throughout the year, it became abundantly clear early on that there was not one Republican with whom he could negotiate, whether on guns, immigration or anything else." We've BEEN here all along, we've WATCHED the Republicans kill any hope of gun control or immigration, we've watched them spend every waking minute focused on Benghazi, voting to repeal Obamacare over forty times, taking us lurching from crisis to government shutdown, and passing no legislation. That's all at Obama's feet?? Get real!

Let's take them individually:

"A broad gun-control measure": We watched as the NRA and Republicans scuttled any hope of ANY gun-control measure, much less a broad one (which nobody on earth could have expected!). How does any President get votes for such a thing, in the current climate? There's literally nothing he COULD do to get gun-control of any kind passed, despite the vast majority of Americans wanting it.

"An immigration reform package": Despite the MAJORITY of Republicans wanting to do something on this, and myriad Republican legislators warning that it should be done and pleading with their party to do SOMETHING, the Tea Party nutcases have guaranteed that nobody will vote for anything…yet, anyway. Time will tell.

"A series of bills addressing the country’s debt and spending issues": Oh, that's a REAL joke! With the Republicans forcing crisis after crisis around ANYTHING having to do with the debt and spending, how could Obama or the Dems have accomplished anything on this?? They finally DID come up with a budget which looks to pass, but even then, the Republicans had to overcome the Tea Party in both House and Senate, while the Democrat votes were right there, willing to compromise.

I certainly agree Obama has had his worst year in Washington. I certainly feel that he has failed in any number of things; but for me, drones, our dealings with Afghanistan and Pakistan, and Gitmo are far more his responsibility than Benghazi or the misdeeds of the IRS, and those aren't even mentioned. Mostly I think it's a weak article, fails to elucidate how the things enumerated "all lead back to Obama", misses a number of vital things, and is completely off base in believing that the current problems will doom any Obama legacy.

I guess I'm with KPO at the end, too; I don't feel the article said anything particularly meaningful.


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Tuesday, December 17, 2013 5:32 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


Yep. I'd say that's killing the messenger.



Then you are misusing the term.






"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, December 17, 2013 5:55 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


Yep. I'd say that's killing the messenger.



Then you are misusing the term.






"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



I could've got into that with him, but I thought I'd let it go. I guess he meant 'ad hominem', or something similar.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:41 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


So Kiki, KPO, and Niki...

You apparently disagree with the Post's selection of President Obama as having the worst year in Washington.

Just out of curiosity, will you at least concede that Pres. Obama has had a pretty bad year, what with revelations of IRS targeting and NSA spying, multiple problems with the ACA rollout, the flack from the Administration's shifting messages on the reason for the Benghazi attack, etc?

Now right off the bat, based on these problems, I can't think of anyone who's had a worse year in Washington, but apparently you think there was someone, or else you wouldn't say Pres. Obama doesn't deserve the title. So I'd be interested if you'd tell me who you think actually DID have the worst year in Washington, since you think it's not the president. You must have someone to compare him to.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


So now, Geezer, you've given up reading entirely?? I JUST posted "and certainly agree that Obama had the worst year in Washington" AND "I certainly agree Obama has had his worst year in Washington", both in the same post, and you come back with "You apparently disagree with the Post's selection of President Obama as having the worst year in Washington". Wow. Not only did I agree that President Obama had probably "the" worst year of (certainly any politician, etc.) in Washington, but had HIS "worst year", and you claim I disagree? WTF??

All that bitching and moaning that people aren't addressing the article, "killing" the messenger, yada, yada, I address the article IN DEPTH, and this is what you come back with. So I'm to understand that you don't bother to read people's responses, you just post whatever you feel like. Got it, will keep it in mind for future reference. Wow, are you ever biased!

By the way, it wasn't "The Post's selection", it was Chris Cilliza's EDITORIAL OPINION. Try at the very least to be that accurate, even if you have no intention of reading people's replies to you.


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Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
So now, Geezer, you've given up reading entirely??



Have you?

I noted that you disagreed with the "Post's selection..."

Since you criticized the Post article at length ("Mostly I think it's a weak article, fails to elucidate how the things enumerated "all lead back to Obama", misses a number of vital things, and is completely off base in believing that the current problems will doom any Obama legacy. "), and tried instead to blame everything that went wrong with Obama's plans on someone else, seems a valid point to me.

Quote:

By the way, it wasn't "The Post's selection", it was Chris Cilliza's EDITORIAL OPINION. Try at the very least to be that accurate, even if you have no intention of reading people's replies to you.


And Cris Cilliza published it? No. The Post did. It's amazing the nits you'll pick to avoid the actual subject.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Is anything that the article said untrue?"

Why, yes, there's a lot that's untrue.




No. There's a lot that's opinion. Unless you're saying that the author is lying about his opinions.

Then again, the facts behind those opinions aren't in very much doubt. But you knew that, before you tried to drag another red herring through the discussion.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:12 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

You apparently disagree with the Post's selection of President Obama as having the worst year in Washington.

Just out of curiosity, will you at least concede that Pres. Obama has had a pretty bad year


I'll just do the same as Niki, and repost what I already said:

"Undoubtedly, yes, Obama has had a bad year. Worst year in Washington? I've no idea. I suspect Obama wins these kinds of awards (like lie of the year) partly because of his status as president.

As for rebutting the article... I don't feel strongly that what the guy is saying is wrong, or that it's particularly meaningful, so why bother rebutting it? "

Quote:

I noted that you disagreed with the "Post's selection..."

Since you criticized the Post article at length... and tried instead to blame everything that went wrong with Obama's plans on someone else



" 'Worst year' is a pretty meaningless accolade. You can have a bad year for numerous reasons, that may or may not be your fault. You could be diagnosed with cancer, or struck by lightning, and that would be a bad year."

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:59 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


And this article nails it:

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/alternative-look-obamas-5th-ye
ar


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, December 18, 2013 2:15 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer is absolutely amazing. He posts something with the Topic "Worst Year in Washington" and an article opining that Obama had the worst year in Washington. I agree--TWICE--in two different ways, both that I think he had THE worst year in Washington and that he had HIS worst year in Washington, and Geezer claims I DISAGREE with President Obama as having had the worst year in Washington! Mind boggling. His claim is that because I pointed out the article is by one person, not the entire WaPo Editorial Board, it wasn't actually "the Post's selection". Then goes on to state "It's amazing the nits you'll pick to avoid the actual subject." Phe-nominal!

I usually don't lump Geezer in with the same stupidity displayed by zit or wulf, and sometimes Rap and Jong, but in this case, he's right down there with them. I'm not sure what his purpose was in posting this thread; he's not willing to actually discuss the article in question, complains that others aren't, and flatly refuses to even acknowledge when he's AGREED WITH! The purpose seems to be nothing more than to put up something negative about Obama, nothing more.

And thank you, KPO, for that link. I'm guessing Geezer, just like the rest of his right-wing buddies, would rather ignore it:
Quote:

The premise of these analyses seems a little excessive. Consider:

* Twice congressional Republicans threatened debt-ceiling default; twice Obama stood his ground; and twice the GOP backed down before Congress did real harm. The presidential leadership helped establish a new precedent that will benefit Obama, his successors, and the country.

* Congressional Republicans shut down the government to extract White House concessions. Obama and congressional Democrats stood firm and the GOP backed down.

* The Obama administration forged an international agreement to rid Syria of chemical weapons, struck a historic nuclear deal with Iran, and brought Israelis and Palestinians to the table together for the first peace talks in years.

* The economy has steadily improved, and 2013 is on pace to be the best year for U.S. job creation since 2005 and the second best since 1999.

* The “scandals” the media hyped relentlessly in the spring proved to be largely meaningless, and while the president’s poll numbers have dropped, his standing is roughly at the same point as two years ago.

Obviously, the Affordable Care Act’s open-enrollment period got off to a dreadful start, though there’s ample evidence that the system is the midst of a dramatic turnaround. Besides, two months of website troubles do not a year make.



Valid points, in my opinion, and the facts about Syria, Iran and Israel/Palestine will undoubtedly live a lot longer in history than the Benghazi and IRS scandals. The ACA will be fixed and be around for a long time to come and, just like Social Security, Medicare and Medicare Part D, will be an accepted "legacy" in the end.

After reading that and thinking about it, what occurs to me is that this might well be looked at as the "worst year in Washington" for the REPUBLICANS. What exactly did they accomplish, one might wonder? THEIR poll numbers have been far lower than Obama's: 24% - http://www.pollingreport.com/cong_rep.htm), and have been going down steadily for years now (having reached the lowest point in 21 YEARS after the shutdown-- http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/Gallup-Republicans-approval-lowest/201
3/10/09/id/530247
), while Obama's have returned to 42% as of yesterday, by the way-- http://www.gallup.com/poll/116479/barack-obama-presidential-job-approv
al.aspx…or
43%-- http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/polling/postabc-poll-obama-repu
blicans-health-care/2013/12/17/42d46190-66d8-11e3-997b-9213b17dac97_page.html...depending
on the poll; since the 43% is a WaPo poll, I assume Geezer prefers that one.

THEY threatened two debt-ceiling defaults and caused one government shutdown, but gained nothing from any of them. THEY are in the news daily for one of their leaders saying members of his party have "lost all credibility" (Boehner), another contending their cohorts "Give Conservatism A Bad Name" (McConnel), and other elected Republicans calling their fellow legislators "Knuckle-Dragging Neanderthals" (Duffy), "crazy" (McCain on Cruz), "fraud" (King on Cruz), accusing them of engaging in "crazy talk" (Ribble on Yoho), one of their advisors (to both Bushes) claiming the party needs to "stop pandering to racism" (Steeper), and on and on and on virtually daily. I can't think of a single thing that's been positive for the Republican party, or Republican legislators in Congress, this past year…can anyone else?

Contrast that with the above-itemized accomplishments of this past year, and what do you come up with?

By the way, just for the smiles: "Who do you think is more responsible for the country's current economic problems - (Barack Obama) or (George W. Bush)?

Barack Obama: 38%
George W. Bush: 50%

I guess the country hasn't completely forgotten…yet.


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Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:43 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Why, yes, there's a lot that's untrue."

"No. There's a lot that's opinion."

Which the author claims is the truth. That's a significant - untruth, to put it gently. And which you enjoin us to discuss as if they were meaningful facts. It's his opinion. So? Why is that discussion-worthy?


As evidence of "rape mentality"

Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is

whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies.


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Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:34 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
And this article nails it:

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/alternative-look-obamas-5th-ye
ar


It's not personal. It's just war.



Yep. In the dictionary under "Hagiography", they'll have this article as an example.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Geezer, they don't like it when someone puts a mirror in front of them.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:53 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Geezer, they don't like it when someone puts a mirror in front of them.




Yep. Both KPO and Niki claim that they believe that Obama has had a bad year, which was the premise of the article I cited, so I wonder why they have to post so much about it. Guess they just can't prevent themselves from attacking the folks who post anything critical of the President.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:53 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Both KPO and Niki claim that they believe that Obama has had a bad year, which was the premise of the article I cited, so I wonder why they have to post so much about it.

LOL. You went into other threads and trolled me, challenging me to give my opinion on this piece. Then when I gave you my views you completely misrepresented them (and Niki's), so I corrected you. But you still want to think I'm lying, so you take my posting here multiple times as evidence that I'm lying...? Wow, you're completely rabid on this issue.

Quote:

Guess they just can't prevent themselves from attacking the folks who post anything critical of the President.

Point to one instance of me attacking the writer of this article (or Niki for that matter).

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, December 20, 2013 8:21 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Point to one instance of me attacking the writer of this article .



"I'm probably as big an Obama fan as anyone here, but is it supposed to stop me in my tracks if one random journalist thinks Obama has failed in his presidency?"





"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, December 20, 2013 9:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"so I wonder why they have to post so much about it. Guess they just can't prevent themselves from attacking the folks who post anything critical of the President." JUST amazing, just absolutely amazing. I DEBATED the article; the things I agreed with, the things I disagreed with about it, WAS critical of the President myself, and never "attacked" anyone or anyTHING in the article, and this is what Geezer comes back with.

"When you have nothing to say about what he wrote"; "You have any comments on the points he raised, or will you also just try to change the subject?"; "I posted it, so I think it's at least worthy of discussion, not complete dismissal"; "You're trying to kill the messenger rather than addressing the points he made"; "And I'm still asking for a rebuttal of the points made in the article, rather than excuses to ignore them." Through the ENTIRE THREAD Geezer keeps asking for a discussion of the article; I addressed the article IN DEPTH, virtually point by point, REBUTTED some of those points, and get back "why they have to post so much about it" and accusations that I "attacked" somebody for posting "anything" critical of Obama!

Note he never responded to any of the points I made, just tossed out this bullshit. In other words; no, HE'S not "willing to discuss" anything, he just put it up and wants only for responders to say "Yes, I agree"--anything other than that is discussing it TOO MUCH and an "attack". He has truly sunk lower than I've ever seen before.

I even responded directly to "So I'd be interested if you'd tell me who you think actually DID have the worst year in Washington, since you think it's not the president. You must have someone to compare him to." I responded IN DEPTH, asked questions, and of course got no response.

When someone posts an article that directly addresses the issues raised in the first article, we get: "Yep. In the dictionary under "Hagiography", they'll have this article as an example." Something about "killing the messenger" and "complete dismissal" rather than discuss the material, anyone? It's just plain laughable, all of it, and truly, pathetically petty and ridiculous. At this point, Geezer is just trolling. Repeating the same accusations, refusing to actually discuss the issue, "completely dismissing" the counter-point article AND quite literally ATTACKING everyone who disagrees with him.

And he doesn't even see it…or at least pretends he doesn't. Is Geezer actually this myopically dumb? Or is this not precisely what a troll does? A particularly sad illustration of what it's like to try and have an actual "debate" with one of these guys.


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Friday, December 20, 2013 9:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Point to one instance of me attacking the writer of this article (or Niki for that matter).



And Niki attacks the poster of the article.

"Is Geezer actually this myopically dumb?"




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, December 20, 2013 12:04 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The question is unreasonable? I repeat: I detailed how you repeatedly asked us to discuss the article, and when I did, claimed first that I'd DENIED Obama had the/his worst year, ignored the in-depth discussion I offered critiquing the article, accused me--totally falsely--of "attacking" the author, never answered any of my rebuttal questions, then complained that I posted about it too MUCH. At no time did you engage in the "discussion" you kept REPEATEDLY asking for.

And now I'm "attacking" you for asking if you're actually that myopically stupid, to do all of the above and then claim it's others who are in the wrong--a question you didn't bother answering, just skipped on to saying I'm attacking you.

I call trolling. You evidence absolutely, positively NO interest in "discussing" the article YOU put up, you lied flat out about me attacking the author and not responding to the article, and you're just throwing around bullshit. That can have no intent but to troll. Go right on, but everyone can clearly see what you're doing.


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Friday, December 20, 2013 12:35 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Point to one instance of me attacking the writer of this article .



"I'm probably as big an Obama fan as anyone here, but is it supposed to stop me in my tracks if one random journalist thinks Obama has failed in his presidency?"





"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."



Saying one person's opinion isn't enough to stop her in her tracks... is attacking?

You really are that myopically stupid. Or just staggeringly dishonest.

Seriously - get over your victim complex, you fucking baby.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, December 20, 2013 3:53 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Point to one instance of me attacking the writer of this article (or Niki for that matter).



And Niki attacks the poster of the article.

"Is Geezer actually this myopically dumb?"


Okey. So to back up your repeated claims of me and Niki 'attacking' the writer of the article, you have me referring to him as 'some random journalist'. And for Niki you have... nothing.

Just embarrassing. Someone with a shred of honesty would've retracted their clearly false accusation at this point. Oh well, to the 'Questions conservatives refuse to answer thread' we go...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, December 20, 2013 4:15 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I call trolling.



Yes.

This thread is an obvious geezer troll.


*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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