REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Texas Forces A Dead Woman To Incubate A Fetus

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, January 24, 2014 20:35
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VIEWED: 2861
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Thursday, January 9, 2014 9:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The family of Marlise Munoz, who is being kept on life support even though she is brain dead, is outraged that her body is being used as a “host for a fetus.” The hospital has said it is legally bound to keep Munoz on a ventilator because shortly after the patient arrived at the hospital last year following a blood clot in her lungs, doctors discovered she was 14 weeks pregnant.

According to Dallas News, Munoz, who is from Fort Worth, Texas, was taken to John Peter Smith Hospital on Nov. 26 after her husband, Erick Munoz, discovered her collapsed and unconscious on their living room floor. Doctors later declared Marlise Munoz brain dead, meaning there was no neurological activity in her brain. Erick, a firefighter and a paramedic, told the hospital that his wife’s wishes were to never be placed on life-support machines.

“She did not want to be on life support,” her mother, Lynne Machado, told CBS News. “We knew what her wishes were as well as her husband’s, so we were all on the same page.”

But when the family was prepared to say their final goodbyes and to pull the plug, the hospital said they couldn’t comply with the family’s wishes. According to multiple reports, the hospital said that because Marlise Munoz was pregnant, Texas law dictated that the hospital could not remove her from a ventilator, regardless of the condition of the fetus.

“It’s not a matter of pro-choice and pro-life,” Machado told the New York Times. “It’s about a matter of our daughter’s wishes not being honored by the state of Texas.”

Texas is one of two dozen states that prohibit doctors from cutting off life support to patients who are pregnant. The law in Texas was first passed in 1989 and amended in 1999.

“The measures were largely adopted in the 1980s, with the spread of laws authorizing patients to make advance directives about end-of-life care like living wills and health care proxies,” Katharine Taylor, a lawyer and bioethicist at Drexel University in Philadelphia, told the Utah People’s Post.

Such laws are sharply contested by critics who say hospitals often misinterpret them. The Center for Women Policy Sutdies has even referred to them as a way for “terminally ill women” to be forced to “exist as human incubators.”

A crucial point of contention is whether these laws apply to patients who are brain dead, as opposed to patients who are in a coma or a vegetative state.

Marlise Munoz’s family has been outraged by the law, which is preventing their daughter’s wishes from being answered.

“All she is, is a host for a fetus,” Marlise Munoz’s father, Ernest Machado, told the New York Times. “I get angry with the state. What business did they have delving into these areas? Why are they practicing medicine up in Austin?”

The hospital has been relatively silent about the case, partly because they say they’re not at liberty to discuss it. But, a J.R. Labbe, a spokesperson for John Peter Smith Hospital, did say this:

“We can’t withdraw treatment from a pregnant person as the law states. Every day, we have patients and families who must make difficult decisions. Our position remains the same. We follow the law.”

Third party legal analysts recognize the complexity of the situation. Where does law end and the ethics of end-of-life care step in? When does life begin?

“Usually, unless someone is arguing, the hospital will follow [personal or family wishes],” CBS News legal analyst Jack Ford explained on CBS's “This Morning Monday.” “Here it’s complicated because you have this statute in Texas, one of the states that says, ‘We are going to recognize that another life is involved with this.'” http://www.ibtimes.com/family-marlise-munoz-angry-brain-dead-mother-li
fe-support-after-texas-hospital-discovers-she-1532834



There are no words...

(ETA: Emphasis mine; it makes me wonder...)

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Thursday, January 9, 2014 4:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
her body is being used as a “host for a fetus.”


Which is exactly what the reichwing views women as.
Bonus points for malice in that once it pops out they couldn't give less of a fuck about it.
All about control, domination, exploitation.

And people try to tell me they're not insane.

-F

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Friday, January 10, 2014 10:48 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


What is the state of the fetus?
Does her family even care about the pregnancy?
Would Marlise have changed her mind about her final wishes had she known a baby was involved?
Does her husband have any say about the baby?

Who cares? Those damn Republicans are always trying to tell women what to do!

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Friday, January 10, 2014 12:44 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"What is the state of the fetus?" Don't know--but doesn't matter, according to Texas law. If it's got a heartbeat, that's all that counts, even if it's severely damaged or unviable after birth, it's got to be "protected". And it's a major question as far as I'm concerned...now long was she dead before husband found her, how would that have affected the fetus, and would it result in husband being stuck with seriously-damaged baby he has to care for, pay for, etc., for the rest of its life along with the 14-month-old baby he has now?

"Does her family even care about the pregnancy?" There's this (apparently he has the same questions about the viability of the fetus that I do): " Erick Munoz described his personal conflict as the father of a 14-month-old boy who wanted another child, but as a medical professional who didn't know if the fetus could survive or how much it had suffered." ( http://www.cbsnews.com/news/experts-weigh-in-on-texas-law-keeping-brai
n-dead-pregnant-woman-alive
/)

They already have one child which he will be caring for alone; who knows what the condition will be of the fetus once its born? I wonder if Texas law even allows them to find out anything about what it's suffered, what its condition might be? He's probably going to have to wait, what, another six months, to find out.

"Would Marlise have changed her mind about her final wishes had she known a baby was involved?" Apparently we'll never know. But given they already have one child, both worked as paramedics and both felt very strongly about not being kept alive artificially, it's not hard to imagine they discussed such a possibility and both knew how they felt.

"Does her husband have any say about the baby?" In what way? I would assume it's his responsibility when it's born, and he has no say in her being kept alive until then, so…?

Who cares? Obviously you don't, but all I can think of is what that family is going through and what they will be going through…anyone with an imagination would logically be horrified.


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Saturday, January 11, 2014 11:18 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


As noted in the article, there are about two dozen states that prohibit doctors from cutting off life support to patients who are pregnant.

Here's a link to a report on this situation.

http://www.centerwomenpolicy.org/programs/health/statepolicy/documents
/REPRO_PregnancyExclusionsinStateLivingWillandMedicalProxyStatutesMeganGreeneandLeslieR.Wolfe.pdf





"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, January 23, 2014 12:56 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


New developments:
Quote:

A fetus being carried by a brain dead Texas woman against her family’s wishes is so “distinctly abnormal” that the sex cannot even be determined, her husband’s attorneys said Wednesday.

Marlise Munoz, 33, suffered a pulmonary embolism in late November and doctors say she has no brain activity. Although Erick Munoz says his wife wanted to be pulled from life support in the event of brain death, doctors at John Peter Smith Hospital in Forth Worth refused to do so after finding out that the unconscious woman was 14 weeks pregnant. Doctors cited a Texas law mandating pregnant women stay on life support until their fetus is viable, typically at 24 to 26 weeks.

But now Erick Munoz’s attorneys, who will go to court Friday to challenge the constitutionality of this law, are questioning if the 22-week old fetus would be viable even if it did come to term.

“Even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined,” said attorneys Heather King and Jessica Hall Janicek in a statement. Gender can typically be determined between 18 and 20 weeks.

The lawyers also said the unborn fetus has fluid buildup inside the skull and possible heart problems. “Quite sadly, this information is not surprising due to the fact that the fetus, after being deprived of oxygen for an indeterminate length of time, is gestating within a dead and deteriorating body, as a horrified family looks on in absolute anguish, distress and sadness,” said the statement.

The Tarrant County DA’s office, representing the hospital, declined to comment to the AP. http://nation.time.com/2014/01/23/attorneys-brain-dead-womans-fetus-is
-distinctly-abnormal/#ixzz2rFHPhw8j




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Thursday, January 23, 2014 1:10 PM

BYTEMITE


This is where politics and religion should give way to science. A dead person cannot possibly incubate a fetus to viability. More than just the oxygen deprivation. Their endocrine signaling system has failed to the point where they require machines to breathe for them, it is safe to say that it is impossible for their body to produce the subtle changing hormone gradients that would allow for the normal development of the fetus.

What we are describing here is not a good faith effort to save and preserve a life, but a Frankensteinian nightmare.

However, I do not doubt that eventually in the future enough knowledge will have been gained about fetal development that it can be done outside the womb. Which will certainly raise other problems and questions, but may resolve existing ones.

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Thursday, January 23, 2014 1:28 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I believe many women have been kept alive and the fetuses has developed all right. In this case, there was deprivation, which probably had a lot to do with it...perhaps the fetus being in such an early developmental stage, as well. But Googling "Babies born to dead mother", gets many hits, and I assume many of them were okay. It seems to me a very iffy thing, however, when the fetus is in such an early stage of development and the mother was "found" dead, i.e., had been for some time. And to force a man to be responsible for whatever comes out in such a situation seems especially despicable, to me.


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Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:27 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


On this subject Adam Baldwin, spokesman for the Tea Party, tweeted 'Every Life has Value' and 'What should be presumed to be their innocent unborn baby's wishes?' The baby's presumed answer: "Jayne Cobb is a Bone Head." The baby has spoken.
http://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/status/426245989129670656/photo/1
http://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/status/426425660286840833/photo/1

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:54 PM

BYTEMITE


There is a big difference between delivering a viable (past 22 weeks) baby within hours of the mother's death, and keeping a dead body on life support to incubate a fetus to the point that it is viable.

This is a very unusual procedure with only three known cases in the entire world. There is only ONE known case where the infant survived this and was healthy (albeit premature). It was in Hungary, and it's possible that it only worked out because the mother was not just brain dead, but in a persistent vegetative state. Another instance was in Virginia. That infant had major medical complications, and did not survive six weeks.

This is the third known case, and it appears to be likely to go the direction of the Virginia case, if not worse, for the reasons I have said.

As such, 2 out of 3 instances of this kind of incubation have a non-viable result.

I'll grant you that the sampling size is pretty small for determining the odds of irregular development and survivability, but 1) I would disapprove of a larger sampling size to determine this for ethical reasons, and 2) it's a logical bet.

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Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:45 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It looks like those aren't the only cases. I'm not arguing in favor of it, make no mistake, I just found these in a quick search.
Quote:

11/16/1997, "Brockport, 18 miles west of Rochester": A woman declared brain-dead about four months into her pregnancy gave birth to a premature, but healthy, girl.

Doctors at Strong Memorial Hospital here decided to deliver 20-year-old Lisa Nottingham's daughter on Friday because Ms. Nottingham's condition had become unstable over the last week and she had developed infections. Specialists estimate that after 28 weeks in the womb, a newborn's chances of survival increase to more than 90 percent. The baby was born at 31 weeks.

The infant, who was 15 1/2 inches long and weighed 3 pounds 3 ounces at birth, was delivered by Caesarean section.

The woman's parents, who are divorced, withdrew a court petition in September that sought the right to remove their daughter from life support after she suffered a brain hemorrhage in early August.

Ms. Nottingham was placed on a ventilator 16 weeks into her pregnancy. Doctors said at the time that keeping the mother alive for a few more weeks would profoundly increase the chance of the fetus surviving. It turned out to be more than 14 weeks. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/16/nyregion/a-healthy-baby-girl-is-born
-to-a-brain-dead-mother-20.html



Quote:

5/4/2012, Grand Rapids, Michigan: A 26-year-old woman who had been declared brain dead gave birth to twins at Spectrum Health Butterworth Hospital in Grand Rapids, Mich.

Bolden's family asked doctors "to drop everything we could to save these babies. It wasn't that difficult a call," hospital spokesman Bruce Rossman said. "It required a lot of evaluations and discussions among our staff. They had to at least get to 24 weeks before we could consider delivery."

Doctors kept Bolden on a respirator for a month to allow for the development of babies. The twins were born prematurely at 25 weeks on April 5 from a cesarean section. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brain-dead-mom-gives-birth-to-twins-while-
on-life-support
/


Quote:

9/16/2011, Al Ain, United Arab Emerits: A team of doctors at the Tawam Hospital managed to remove a child from his mother's womb, ten weeks after her clinical death.

The 28-week old child is under special medical supervision, an official at the hospital told Gulf News.

The official said the mother was clinically dead but the medical team took the decision to keep her on a life support system as the foetus inside the womb was still alive.

"The medical team decided to keep the mother alive and pumped blood and oxygen to keep the foetus alive," said the official.

The Emirati woman, who was around seven months pregnant, died of a brain haemorrhage. However, the medical team found that the foetus was alive and when it reached 28 weeks, they performed surgery to bring it out. http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/health/baby-born-10-weeks-after-moth
er-s-death-1.867433



Changes nothing, I was just curious about you writing that only the Hungarian case survived, that surprised me. It's obvious it is very rare, which I never realized before. And I didn't follow up to find out if they were healthy.

Just all the more reason it shouldn't have been forced on someone, IMHO.


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Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
On this subject Adam Baldwin, spokesman for the Tea Party, tweeted 'Every Life has Value' and 'What should be presumed to be their innocent unborn baby's wishes?' The baby's presumed answer: "Jayne Cobb is a Bone Head." The baby has spoken.




I'm sure Jr was saying :" Just KILL me, Jayne Cobb is a bone head ".



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 23, 2014 7:04 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Changes nothing, I was just curious about you writing that only the Hungarian case survived, that surprised me. It's obvious it is very rare, which I never realized before.


Hmm. Okay, my source was wrong on the three cases thing. But yes, it is very rare.

The UAE case appears to have survived. So does the Rochester one. The Michigan case the twins seem to have been already viable or nearly so at the time of delivery (seeing some discrepancy about what week of pregnancy it was when the mother died), I'm not sure why they left the woman on life support for a month.

In further researching this, I also found a case of a woman who was raped while in a persistent vegetative state having given birth in 1996, but again, that was a persistent vegetative state.

Further looking at the data here also suggests that the fetuses that managed to develop normally were all further along than either the Texas case or the Virginia case.

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Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Gray area. SHE didn't want to be left on life support, right ? There was no mention on whether she wanted to taker her unborn child with her, when they pulled the plug, was there ?

Regardless of what the law says.

I'd have to think that most mothers would want their children to live on.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, January 23, 2014 10:27 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I'd have to think that most mothers would want their children to live on.


1) This one is not going to.
2) You'd be surprised, especially if it would be hardship for their rest of their family.
3) Cases of rape.
4) Seriously, Frankensteinian. And I say that as someone who is in fact entirely supportive of all number of kinds of disturbing and reckless abominations of science.

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Thursday, January 23, 2014 10:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, rappy has no idea what "most mothers" would want. 30% of women have had an abortion. Of those carrying an abnormal fetus, the abortion rate goes up to 90%. So, in this circumstance, if the mother were alive, the overwhelming odds are that she would choose abortion.

Well, mom is not alive, but dad is. And dad would choose abortion.

So "the state" takes away the right of the dad to choose, but leaves him with the responsibility of the choice.

What kind of state is that?

Sounds like fascism to me.


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Friday, January 24, 2014 8:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:


So "the state" takes away the right of the dad to choose, but leaves him with the responsibility of the choice.

What kind of state is that?

Sounds like fascism to me.



30 states, not just Texas , have such a law.

So, men DO get to choose, as long as it's to choose death, huh?

Waiting to see how this plays out though.

Quote:

FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) — Attorneys for a Fort Worth-area family will ask a judge to allow a pregnant, brain-dead Texas woman to be removed from life support, despite hospital opposition.

State District Judge R.H. Wallace will hear arguments Friday as the husband of Marlise Munoz seeks to remove her from life support. Munoz remains connected to machines in John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, January 24, 2014 9:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Amen Byte and Sig. What I'm thinking about is "especially if it would be hardship for their rest of their family", which it will, if it's allowed to come to term. Nobody's going to adopt the poor thing (I would say "he" or "she", not "it", except they can't even determine the sex), however long it lives (if it does), and the father is going to be stuck with all the medical bills, and he and the family will have to go on suffering...possibly for a very, very long time. It's sick.




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Friday, January 24, 2014 9:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, easy to see where the troll gets his 'talking points':

Rep. Vicky Hartzler (R-MO) told conservative activists on Wednesday that women should be forced to carry their babies to term because abortion “robs men” of their right to be fathers.


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Friday, January 24, 2014 10:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Swing and miss agian, Niki. No where did I get my "talking points " , other than from my own damn self. I didn't even see vid you posted, or much follow the RvW anniversary, other than see it being reported on the news.

And my comment actually is the inverse of what you're trying to paint me as saying, though to be honest, I AM still on the fence of this particular case. State's mandating that a dead woman's body be kept " alive " so the child can be born, no matter what , exceeds my already stated views on abortion.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, January 24, 2014 6:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Judge sides w/ family, orders life support to cease for brain dead woman as of 5pm Monday.

Unborn child reportedly shows signs of significant deformity.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, January 24, 2014 8:35 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank goodness. Let's hope that's an end to it, and that Texas doesn't indict the husband or hospital or something.

I wonder how they're going to explain it? Or if they'll even bother? After all, the law is clear; she couldn't be taken off life support; if she is, then someone's broken the law...?


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