REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Trump v Hillary Debate #1

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, October 7, 2016 13:13
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Sunday, October 2, 2016 12:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



I see Industrial Production increasing


But sadly, the US has not enough internal manufacturing to keep up with internal demand. If we DID have enough internal manufacturing to meet internal demand, we wouldn't be purchasing goods made in foreign countries.

Over the years the manufacturing to fill US internal demand has been increasingly located in foreign countries, which means those jobs have been increasingly located in foreign countries. And our purchases of foreign goods has been increasing relative to our exports of US-made goods. Consequently, our trade deficit has gone up and up over the decades.

As an ultimate indicator of US manufacturing jobs relative to foreign manufacturing jobs, the US balance of trade is pretty good. Other statistics are irrelevant.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, October 2, 2016 2:04 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Trump proves it makes no difference what BS spews from the mouths of candidates
And then you go on at length refuting what you already claim is bs. Isn't that a little self-defeating?

MEANWHILE, when it comes to the candidate who actually WILL be president - you have nothing to say about her. Could it be you don't know anything about the candidate you claim to support?

It is very hard to bust through your smug certainty that you know what you're talking about. My premise is that enough Americans to swing an election either way will never understand what policies Republicans and Democrats are selling. Both Trump and Hillary realize this, but each responds differently. Trump does not need a policy team. He can just make it up on the fly because Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan will do the work once Trump is President. Trump's only job is to get elected, not to govern. Hillary needs a policy team because she needs a policy in case the Republicans, by some election day miracle, cannot sabotage the Federal Government in 2017, unlike what the GOP has done to Obama. Hillary likes to talk about policy when she campaigns, even if it all amounts to nothing unless the GOP is out of power in Congress because of that miracle I told you about.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2016/09/08/inside-the-collap
se-of-trumps-d-c-policy-shop
/



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, October 2, 2016 5:30 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

I see Industrial Production increasing

But sadly, the US has not enough internal manufacturing to keep up with internal demand. If we DID have enough internal manufacturing to meet internal demand, we wouldn't be purchasing goods made in foreign countries.

Over the years the manufacturing to fill US internal demand has been increasingly located in foreign countries, which means those jobs have been increasingly located in foreign countries. And our purchases of foreign goods has been increasing relative to our exports of US-made goods. Consequently, our trade deficit has gone up and up over the decades.

As an ultimate indicator of US manufacturing jobs relative to foreign manufacturing jobs, the US balance of trade is pretty good. Other statistics are irrelevant.

You've been listening to Trump again, haven't you? What made you think Trump knows what he is talking about? Your common sense?

Donald Trump believes that a half-trillion-dollar trade deficit with the rest of the world makes the United States a loser and countries with trade surpluses like China and Mexico winners.

“They’re beating us so badly,” he has said. “Every country we lose money with.”

The reality is different. Trade deficits are not inherently good or bad; they can be either, depending on circumstances. The trade deficit is not a scorecard.

What’s more, eliminating the trade deficit would not, on its own, make America great again, as Mr. Trump promises. And in isolation, the fact that the United States has a trade deficit does not prove that trade agreements are bad for Americans, a staple of Bernie Sanders’s campaign in the Democratic presidential primary. In fact, trying to eliminate the trade deficit could mean giving up some of the key levers of power that allow the United States to get its way in international politics.

Getting rid of the trade deficit could very well make America less great. The reasons have to do with the global reserve currency, economic diplomacy and something called the Triffin dilemma.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/28/upshot/the-trade-deficit-isnt-a-s
corecard-and-cutting-it-wont-make-america-great-again.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1&referer
=

Currently we are running an annual trade deficit of around $540 billion (@ 3 percent of GDP). This could be offset by spending more on education, infrastructure, clean technology or other areas, but the Very Serious People in the GOP will not let us run larger Federal and State Government budget deficits. In that context, it is quite reasonable to link a trade deficit to higher unemployment, so Trump is not wrong in that respect.

I’m not saying that Trump has any idea what he’s talking about; he doesn’t. But we are living in a world where, for the time being, a little mercantilism makes a bit of sense.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/03/28/trade-deficits-these-times
-are-different/?_r=0

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Sunday, October 2, 2016 5:44 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by second:

It is very hard to bust through your smug certainty that you know what you're talking about.



Great point SECOND. kiki has post after post attacking Clinton in different threads and then asks why we keep pointing out that Trump is worse. That's a laugh. She posts negatively about Clinton and then suggests we are responding to her posts incorrectly. And forgets many of us have said we don't care for her either; but Trump is out of the question.

____________________________________________

Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Sunday, October 2, 2016 8:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


second

I didn't bring up the manufacturing/ jobs topic - you did. And my post responded directly to your manufacturing/ jobs post, where I said the trade deficit was a far better metric for manufacturing jobs lost to foreign countries than your figures.

Here's the original summation: "As an ultimate indicator of US manufacturing jobs relative to foreign manufacturing jobs, the US balance of trade is pretty good. Other statistics are irrelevant."

The question is - has the US lost manufacturing jobs to foreign countries?

My response is yes. If you look at the US trade deficit, it's obvious the US isn't manufacturing enough goods internally to meet internal demand. Instead it is having to purchase foreign goods made with foreign labor to meet internal demand. Those purchases of foreign goods represent a loss of US manufacturing capacity to foreign countries, along with the loss of US manufacturing jobs to foreign labor.

I thought I was pretty clear, but maybe you needed to see it in different words. Now that you have, maybe you can respond to what I posted.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 3, 2016 5:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It is very hard to bust through your smug certainty that you know what you're talking about. My premise is that enough Americans to swing an election either way will never understand what policies Republicans and Democrats are selling. Both Trump and Hillary realize this, but each responds differently. Trump does not need a policy team. He can just make it up on the fly because Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan will do the work once Trump is President. Trump's only job is to get elected, not to govern. Hillary needs a policy team because she needs a policy in case the Republicans, by some election day miracle, cannot sabotage the Federal Government in 2017, unlike what the GOP has done to Obama. Hillary likes to talk about policy when she campaigns, even if it all amounts to nothing unless the GOP is out of power in Congress because of that miracle I told you about.
Is there a point in there?

If Hillary wins she needs a policy just in case she wins?

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

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Monday, October 3, 2016 7:39 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
second
. . .
I thought I was pretty clear, but maybe you needed to see it in different words. Now that you have, maybe you can respond to what I posted.

I did answer your question here:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60875&mid=10172
00#1017200


It was a long answer, most of it in the links, most of it subtle and sophisticated. I could give you a short and unsophisticated answer. I even wrote it out. But why bother posting it? Neither the GOP nor the Bernie lovers honestly confront the cost of their goals or tradeoffs between economic goals. Why should I try to change the way they think? They both have been wrong all my life and they are going to stay wrong and never understand why their lives gets steadily worse. I cannot fix what is wrong inside their minds. That is work they will either do themselves or it will stay wrong.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, October 3, 2016 7:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


"Subtlety" in this case is just another word for "wrong".

Here is my response to your response:

Quote:

Donald Trump believes that a half-trillion-dollar trade deficit with the rest of the world makes the United States a loser and countries with trade surpluses like China and Mexico winners.

“They’re beating us so badly,” he has said. “Every country we lose money with.”

The reality is different. Trade deficits are not inherently good or bad; they can be either, depending on circumstances.

First of all, this is a simple assertion with no evidence to back it up. Are we supposed to just take this point on faith?

SHORT TERM trade deficits, over the course of 5 years or so, probably won't do much harm, especially if they represent a small fraction of GDP. But the USA doesn't have a short term trade deficit, this deficit has been accumulating over decades. The USA has to borrow money to make up the deficit, and while accounting for these debts is tricky (due to the fact that other entities also borrow from the USA, currencies fluctuate and the value of other assets also rise and fall) the current net US position is negative $8trillion dollars-



About half of our current GDP
http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/charts/united-states-gdp@2x.png?s=wgdpus&v=201610011543o


Quote:

What’s more, eliminating the trade deficit would not, on its own, make America great again, as Mr. Trump promises. And in isolation, the fact that the United States has a trade deficit does not prove that trade agreements are bad for Americans, a staple of Bernie Sanders’s campaign in the Democratic presidential primary. In fact, trying to eliminate the trade deficit could mean giving up some of the key levers of power that allow the United States to get its way in international politics.
Bullshit. The levers of power include (but are not limited to) tariffs, interest rates, capital controls, sanctions, subsidies, currency swaps, specific contracts etc. - all of which can be applied without resort to trade agreements.

Quote:

Getting rid of the trade deficit could very well make America less great. The reasons have to do with the global reserve currency, economic diplomacy and something called the Triffin dilemma.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/28/upshot/the-trade-deficit-isnt-a-s
corecard-and-cutting-it-wont-make-america-great-again.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1&referer=

You conveniently left off the part that discusses the option that a nation with "excess" currency generated by a trade surplus will invest that currency in the deficit nation. However, the NET USA position - taking all of that into account- is still negative and going more negative over time.

Also, in the article that you linked, the "Triffin Dilemna: is framed this way ...

Quote:

The roughly $500 billion trade deficit that the United States runs each year isn’t just about poorly negotiated trade deals and currency manipulation by this or that country. It’s also, to some degree, a byproduct of the central role the United States plays in the global financial system.

There’s even a name for this: the Triffin dilemma. In the mid-20th century, the economist Robert Triffin warned that the provider of the global reserve currency would need to run perpetual trade deficits to keep the world financial system from freezing, with those trade deficits potentially fueling domestic booms and busts.


First of all, the USA sought to become the world reserve currency with the creation of the "petrodollar" in 1973 (under Nixon). Becoming the world reserve currency didn't just "happen" it was a matter of aggressive monetary policy.

Secondly, the article seems to say that WE ought to run a perpetual trade deficit for the GOOD OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.

But... what about us???

Quote:

America's Trade Deficit- The Job Killer

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikecollins/2015/01/15/americas-trade-defi
cit-the-job-killer/#530d0d2a558f


Quote:

Currently we are running an annual trade deficit of around $540 billion (@ 3 percent of GDP). This could be offset by spending more on education, infrastructure, clean technology or other areas
How does this "offset" a trade imbalance? It simply requires that MORE money be borrowed.

Quote:

but the Very Serious People in the GOP will not let us run larger Federal and State Government budget deficits. In that context, it is quite reasonable to link a trade deficit to higher unemployment, so Trump is not wrong in that respect.
I’m not saying that Trump has any idea what he’s talking about; he doesn’t. But we are living in a world where, for the time being, a little mercantilism makes a bit of sense.

What Trump said, as I recall, is that we have YUUGE debts AND our infrastructure is shot. He is correct.

--------------

However, the real risk to the financial system is the 6-10X WORLD GDP of debt in derivatives, which is always denominated in US dollars. The rest is chump change compared to that,



--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

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Monday, October 3, 2016 11:54 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


second

you started with an insult "You've been listening to Trump again, haven't you? What made you think Trump knows what he is talking about? Your common sense?" then went on to address a point I never made.
You were talking about trade deficits being bad. ... a half-trillion-dollar trade deficit ... Trade deficits are not inherently ... eliminating the trade deficit would not ... the fact that the United States has a trade deficit does not ... trying to eliminate the trade deficit ... Getting rid of the trade deficit ...
I was talking about LOSS OF MANUFACTURING JOBS being bad, with trade deficits being a measure of manufacturing job loss.

As for the snark you repeated, TWICE, I'm going to credit you with being lazy and inattentive, rather than assume you're too stupid to understand the difference between what I posted and what you claim I posted, or too dishonest to admit it.

So, maybe you can try engaging your brain and respond to what I posted. Care to try again?





Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 3, 2016 12:14 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

What Trump said, as I recall, is that we have YUUGE debts AND our infrastructure is shot. He is correct.

About Trump being correct there is a saying: "Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while." Or "A stopped clock is right twice a day." Nothing Trump says is worth paying attention to because he is blind and stopped.
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

However, the real risk to the financial system is the 6-10X WORLD GDP of debt in derivatives, which is always denominated in US dollars. The rest is chump change compared to that,

This is what panics you? Your numbers seem to be two orders of magnitude too large so I looked them up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)#Size_of_market


You can look up the original Sources:
BIS www.bis.org/statistics/index.htm ;
CIA World Fact book www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/ ;
Economist www.economist.com/markets-data

In 2010, while the aggregate of OTC derivatives exceeded $600 trillion (at least you got that right) the value of the market was estimated much lower, at $21 trillion. The credit risk equivalent of the derivative contracts was estimated at $3.3 trillion. The world annual Gross Domestic Product is about $65 trillion. (You got that right.)

$3.3 trillion, actual credit risk from derivatives, is more than enough to crash the world’s economy if the leaders act like ignoramuses, which they are. But what else could we expect?

The qualities that get a leader elected are the same qualities that make it difficult for them to learn anything that takes more than a day of study. Find an example of our Congressional leaders’ inability to learn and understand economics here: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/a-general-theory-of-auster
ity
/

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Monday, October 3, 2016 3:08 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
This where I found a serious problem with Hillary (and the media).

She seems to go by the motto

If you lie, lie BIG! (And, note to self, make sure the media is with you.)




Trump’s Charity Is Told to Stop Raising Money in New York

The office of New York Attorney General Eric T. Schneiderman has issued a “notice of violation” to Donald J. Trump’s foundation, ordering it to immediately stop soliciting donations in New York.

The letter, which was sent on Friday and released on Monday morning by Mr. Schneiderman’s office, said that its charities bureau had determined that the Donald J. Trump Foundation had been fund-raising in New York this year when it was not registered to do so under state law.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump%e2%80%99s-charity-is-told
-to-stop-raising-money-in-new-york/ar-BBwX5DW?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=BHEA000


____________________________________________

Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Monday, October 3, 2016 3:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BILL CLINTON: SOCIOPATH
Bill is probably worse than Hillary. Bill had a history, if you recall, of getting state troopers and his security detail to pick out women and bring them to him, where he would force himself on them through a combination of intimidation, surprise, and glamor, then pay for their silence with government jobs. The number of troopers, reporters and investigators who could have testified against Clinton and who died of "unnatural causes" in the 1992-1994 timeframe is truly astounding. Here, you don't have to believe the story, just count the names...



To this day, Bill shares quite a bit of time with convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, having taken a dozen flights WITHOUT his security detail on the "Lolita Express".

Quote:

“Bill Clinton … associated with a man like Jeffrey Epstein, who everyone in New York, certainly within his inner circles, knew was a pedophile. Why would a former president associate with a man like that?” said Conchita Sarnoff of the Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit Alliance to Rescue Victims of Trafficking, Fox reported. Ms. Sarnoff also authored a book on Mr. Epstein titled “TrafficKing.”

Mr. Epstein was arrested in 2005 and signed a plea agreement in 2007 with the U.S. Attorney’s Office, accepting a single charge of soliciting prostitution. He agreed to a 30-month sentence, registered as a “Tier 1” sex offender with the U.S. Virgin Islands and paid dozens of young girls under a federal statute providing for compensation to victims of child sexual abuse.



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/14/bill-clinton-ditched-s
ecret-service-on-multiple-lo/

HILLARY'S RESPONSE TO ALL THIS

Quote:

Hillary Clinton Is Not a Feminist
Since Hillary announced that her husband would be joining her on the campaign trail, people have been debating whether or not it’s fair for the GOP to attack Bill’s sexual misdeeds in order to indirectly attack her.

This makes sense. After all, we’re talking about a guy who has been accused of the sexual assault of more than ten women. Think about it: How is her appointing him really any different than if she’d appointed Bill Cosby?

But here’s the thing: The real issue isn’t whether or not to attack Bill to indirectly attack Hillary — it’s about directly attacking Hillary for how she herself treated the women involved.

Hillary Clinton claims to be pro-women, yet has actively worked to ruin lives of so many of them. She’s running on a “feminist platform” — she’s even dared to say that sexual-assault survivors have a “right to be believed” — despite the fact that what she did to the women who accused Bill went far beyond not believing them.

She attacked them.

When allegations of sexual misconduct emerged during Bill’s 1992 presidential run, she’s reported to have said “Who is going to find out? These women are trash. Nobody’s going to believe them.” Multiple people also report that she called the women “sluts” and “whores” — you know, for daring to be raped. A private investigator named Ivan Duda claims that, after Bill lost his second governor’s race, Hillary told him: “I want you to get rid of all these b****** he’s seeing . . . I want you to give me the names and addresses and phone numbers, and we can get them under control.”


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/429138/hillary-clinton-feminist-
bill-clinton-sexual-assault

And it's not like these suspicious activities stopped in 1995. The DNC staffer, Seth Rich, who was widely speculated to have been the source of 20,000 DNC emails sent to Wikileaks (i.e not Russia) was gunned down in an apparent "attempted robbery" ... although nothing was taken.

The investigation of Clinton's private email server, in which staff and Hillary herself demonstrated a concerted effort, with forethought and intent, to wipe and erase data (even after a subpoena was issued), was thoroughly compromised by Bill's "conversation" with DOJ Loretta Lynch and FBI Comey's handing out of criminal immunities to some TARGETS of the investigation for a crime which he says never happened... Ya gotta wonder, you really do.

And then there is this: Hillary bounding in her seat, clapping her hand together and laughing as she exclaims: "We came, we saw, he died"



HILLARY THE NEOCON
But the real reason for my fear and loathing of Hillary is not that's she evil- which I think she is - but that she's DANGEROUSLY DELUSIONAL. Hillary has personally and repeatedly attacked and antagonized Putin. The State Department, which will be HER State Department when she is elected, has openly written a letter of protest, demanding that Obama take a more "forceful" approach to ousting Assad from Syria ... thus allowing a jihadist takeover. The State Department- HER State Department - ran guns from Libyan jihadists to Syrian jihadists, via Turkey, after SHE successfully argued to destroy Libya.

The State Department - HER state department- fomented, and encouraged the coup in Ukraine. Victoria Nuland- HER hand-picked employee- said much more than "fuck the EU", she also talked about "birthing this thing [the coup]" and "making it [the coup] stick". Intent much? Victoria Nuland, Hillary's hand-picked Asst Scy State, has had long-running appointments through the Bush administration; her husband is (in)famous neocon Robert Kagan, who is co-founder of the neoconservative Project for the New American Century YOU MAY RECALL THAT PNAC HOUSED A NUMBER OF EQUALLY-REPREHENSIBLE NEOCONS UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION:

Quote:

Of the twenty-five people who signed the PNAC's founding statement of principles, ten went on to serve in the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush, including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

You were so correct to predict war under Cheney... er, I mean Bush... but you apparently haven't realized that Hillary's policy is very much the same as Bush/Cheney. By comparison, Obama is "neocon lite".

NUCLEAR WAR
At the very top of my list of things I'm voting on is

No nuclear war.

Everything else comes a far distant second. Nothing should be more important than that. Global warming is slow suicide, The fact that our economy is saddled with an unsupportable number of parasites at the top is a serious problem. But we won't be able to solve ANY of these things of it all goes up in a flash, or- worse yet- suffers slow radiation burn.

I haven't had to think about nuclear war since the Reagan administration negotiated the START treaty, when the number of nuclear warheads actually started going down.

During the debate, Trump renounced first use. (Then ,of course, he waffled because anybody who negotiates anything doesn't want to give away a point for free; even I know that.)

HILLARY WAS SILENT ON THE TOPIC. She thinks she can force Russia to back down everywhere by being more willing to blow up the world than Putin. Not only is this thinking vastly unethical and fully sociopathic, it is delusional. At some point, Russia will respond. Putin has said openly and repeatedly that in the next world war, the USA isn't going to sit this one out while everyone else gets destroyed.

Anyone who ignores that warning doesn't deserve to be in the White House, because that person is endangering all of us. Reagan knew better, so should Hillary.


--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

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Monday, October 3, 2016 3:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But the real reason for my fear and loathing of Hillary is not that's she evil- which I think she is - but that
she's DANGEROUSLY DELUSIONAL.
And therefore has failed to learn even the smallest bit from her 'successes': Iraq, Libya, Ukraine and Syria.



Originally posted by SIGNYM: Hillary has personally and repeatedly attacked and antagonized Putin. The State Department- HER State Department - ran guns from Libyan jihadists to Syrian jihadists, via Turkey, after SHE successfully argued to destroy Libya. The State Department - HER state department- fomented, and encouraged the coup in Ukraine. Victoria Nuland- HER hand-picked employee- said much more than "fuck the EU", she also talked about "birthing this thing [the coup]" and "making it [the coup] stick". Intent much?
This is her history: after the 'success' called Iraq, she actively destroyed one country - Libya, crawled into bed with jihadists to destroy another - Syria, and fomented a coup and destroyed a third - Ukraine ... ... ... And now Hillary has been openly antagonizing and provoking a rival nuclear power. And she's even written it into the DNC platform. We don't have to guess what kind of deluded policy she might have. She's already proudly proclaimed it, as if it was a good thing.



Originally posted by SIGNYM:
NUCLEAR WAR
At the very top of my list of things I'm voting on is

No nuclear war.

Everything else comes a far distant second. Nothing should be more important than that. Global warming is slow suicide, The fact that our economy is saddled with an unsupportable number of parasites at the top is a serious problem. But we won't be able to solve ANY of these things of it all goes up in a flash, or- worse yet- suffers slow radiation burn.





Originally posted by SIGNYM:During the debate, Trump renounced first use. (Then ,of course, he waffled because anybody who negotiates anything doesn't want to give away a point for free; even I know that.)

HILLARY WAS SILENT ON THE TOPIC.

Of course she was.



She thinks she can force Russia to back down everywhere by being more willing to blow up the world than Putin. Not only is this thinking vastly unethical and fully sociopathic, it is delusional. At some point, Russia will respond. Putin has said openly and repeatedly that in the next world war, the USA isn't going to sit this one out while everyone else gets destroyed.

Anyone who ignores that warning doesn't deserve to be in the White House, because that person is endangering all of us. Reagan knew better, so should Hillary.


Even worse - US nuclear policy is to reserve the 'first-strike' right. Or in less jargon-laden words: The US reserves the right to launch nuclear missiles FIRST, BEFORE a confirmed nuclear launch has been made against it. US policy is to reserve the right to start a nuclear war.

As former Secretary of State, Clinton knows this.

What does her coy, smug silence about US nuclear policy say to you? Because it means to me that she wants to trick you into thinking she's got better ideas than anybody ... and to avoid the facts so that you won't know about them, or have an opinion about them, or her.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 3, 2016 4:23 PM

THGRRI



Here you go SIG. I Think you meant to post this about Bill Clinton but again you pushed the wrong button comrade. I especially like the part about our deactivating 1,700 Nuclear Russian war heads because they couldn't do it for themselves. You're such an ass.



•Longest economic expansion in American history
The President's strategy of fiscal discipline, open foreign markets and investments in the American people helped create the conditions for a record 115 months of economic expansion. Our economy has grown at an average of 4 percent per year since 1993.


•More than 22 million new jobs
More than 22 million jobs were created in less than eight years -- the most ever under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous twelve years.


•Highest homeownership in American history
A strong economy and fiscal discipline kept interest rates low, making it possible for more families to buy homes. The homeownership rate increased from 64.2 percent in 1992 to 67. 7 percent, the highest rate ever.


•Lowest unemployment in 30 years
Unemployment dropped from more than 7 percent in 1993 to just 4.0 percent in November 2000. Unemployment for African Americans and Hispanics fell to the lowest rates on record, and the rate for women is the lowest in more than 40 years.


•Raised education standards, increased school choice, and doubled education and training investment
Since 1992, reading and math scores have increased for 4th, 8th, and 12th graders, math SAT scores are at a 30-year high, the number of charter schools has grown from 1 to more than 2,000, forty-nine states have put in place standards in core subjects and federal investment in education and training has doubled.


•Largest expansion of college opportunity since the GI Bill
President Clinton and Vice President Gore have nearly doubled financial aid for students by increasing Pell Grants to the largest award ever, expanding Federal Work-Study to allow 1 million students to work their way through college, and by creating new tax credits and scholarships such as Lifetime Learning tax credits and the HOPE scholarship. At the same time, taxpayers have saved $18 billion due to the decline in student loan defaults, increased collections and savings from the direct student loan program.


•Connected 95 percent of schools to the Internet
President Clinton and Vice President Gore's new commitment to education technology, including the E-Rate and a 3,000 percent increase in educational technology funding, increased the percentage of schools connected to the Internet from 35 percent in 1994 to 95 percent in 1999.


•Lowest crime rate in 26 years
Because of President Clinton's comprehensive anti-crime strategy of tough penalties, more police, and smart prevention, as well as common sense gun safety laws, the overall crime rate declined for 8 consecutive years, the longest continuous drop on record, and is at the lowest level since 1973.


•100,000 more police for our streets
As part of the 1994 Crime Bill, President Clinton enacted a new initiative to fund 100,000 community police officers. To date more than 11,000 law enforcement agencies have received COPS funding.


•Enacted most sweeping gun safety legislation in a generation
Since the President signed the Brady bill in 1993, more than 600,000 felons, fugitives, and other prohibited persons have been stopped from buying guns. Gun crime has declined 40 percent since 1992.


•Family and Medical Leave Act for 20 million Americans
To help parents succeed at work and at home, President Clinton signed the Family and Medical Leave Act in 1993. Over 20 million Americans have taken unpaid leave to care for a newborn child or sick family member.


•Smallest welfare rolls in 32 years
The President pledged to end welfare as we know it and signed landmark bipartisan welfare reform legislation in 1996. Since then, caseloads have been cut in half, to the lowest level since 1968, and millions of parents have joined the workforce. People on welfare today are five times more likely to be working than in 1992.


•Higher incomes at all levels
After falling by nearly $2,000 between 1988 and 1992, the median family's income rose by $6,338, after adjusting for inflation, since 1993. African American family income increased even more, rising by nearly $7,000 since 1993. After years of stagnant income growth among average and lower income families, all income brackets experienced double-digit growth since 1993. The bottom 20 percent saw the largest income growth at 16.3 percent.


•Lowest poverty rate in 20 years
Since Congress passed President Clinton's Economic Plan in 1993, the poverty rate declined from 15.1 percent to 11.8 percent last year — the largest six-year drop in poverty in nearly 30 years. There are now 7 million fewer people in poverty than in 1993. The child poverty rate declined more than 25 percent, the poverty rates for single mothers, African Americans and the elderly have dropped to their lowest levels on record, and Hispanic poverty dropped to its lowest level since 1979.


•Lowest teen birth rate in 60 years
In his 1995 State of the Union Address, President Clinton challenged Americans to join together in a national campaign against teen pregnancy. The birth rate for teens aged 15-19 declined every year of the Clinton Presidency, from 60.7 per 1,000 teens in 1992 to a record low of 49.6 in 1999.


•Lowest infant mortality rate in American history
The Clinton Administration expanded efforts to provide mothers and newborn children with health care. Today, a record high 82 percent of all mothers receive prenatal care. The infant mortality rate has dropped from 8.5 deaths per 1,000 in 1992 to 7.2 deaths per 1,000 in 1998, the lowest rate ever recorded.


•Deactivated more than 1,700 nuclear warheads from the former Soviet Union
Efforts of the Clinton-Gore Administration led to the dismantling of more than 1,700 nuclear warheads, 300 launchers and 425 land and submarine based missiles from the former Soviet Union.


•Protected millions of acres of American land
President Clinton has protected more land in the lower 48 states than any other president. He has protected 5 new national parks, designated 11 new national monuments and expanded two others and proposed protections for 60 million acres of roadless areas in America's national forests.


•Paid off $360 billion of the national debt
Between 1998-2000, the national debt was reduced by $363 billion — the largest three-year debt pay-down in American history. We are now on track to pay off the entire debt by 2009.


•Converted the largest budget deficit in American history to the largest surplus
Thanks in large part to the 1993 Deficit Reduction Act, the 1997 Balanced Budget Act, and President Clinton's call to save the surplus for debt reduction, Social Security, and Medicare solvency, America has put its fiscal house in order. The deficit was $290 billion in 1993 and expected to grow to $455 billion by this year. Instead, we have a projected surplus of $237 billion.


•Lowest government spending in three decades
Under President Clinton federal government spending as a share of the economy has decreased from 22.2 percent in 1992 to a projected 18.5 percent in 2000, the lowest since 1966.


•Lowest federal income tax burden in 35 years
President Clinton enacted targeted tax cuts such as the Earned Income Tax Credit expansion, $500 child tax credit, and the HOPE Scholarship and Lifetime Learning Tax Credits. Federal income taxes as a percentage of income for the typical American family have dropped to their lowest level in 35 years.


•More families own stock than ever before
The number of families owning stock in the United States increased by 40 percent since 1992.


•Most diverse cabinet in American history
The President has appointed more African Americans, women and Hispanics to the Cabinet than any other President in history. He appointed the first female Attorney General, the first female Secretary of State and the first Asian American cabinet secretary


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Monday, October 3, 2016 4:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Nothing that you posted refutes anything that Signy posted.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 3, 2016 4:29 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Meanwhile, so it doesn't get lost in the noise
Originally posted by 1kiki:
second

you started with an insult "You've been listening to Trump again, haven't you? What made you think Trump knows what he is talking about? Your common sense?" then went on to address a point I never made.
You were talking about trade deficits being bad. ... a half-trillion-dollar trade deficit ... Trade deficits are not inherently ... eliminating the trade deficit would not ... the fact that the United States has a trade deficit does not ... trying to eliminate the trade deficit ... Getting rid of the trade deficit ...
I was talking about LOSS OF MANUFACTURING JOBS being bad, with trade deficits being a measure of manufacturing job loss.

As for the snark you repeated, TWICE, I'm going to credit you with being lazy and inattentive, rather than assume you're too stupid to understand the difference between what I posted and what you claim I posted, or too dishonest to admit it.

So, maybe you can try engaging your brain and respond to what I posted. Care to try again?





Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 3, 2016 4:33 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Is Bill running?




SIG seems to think so. And I noticed you say nothing when she posts bullshit lies about him. Whys that comrade?

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Monday, October 3, 2016 4:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Meanwhile, so it doesn't get lost in the noise
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But the real reason for my fear and loathing of Hillary is not that's she evil- which I think she is - but that
she's DANGEROUSLY DELUSIONAL.
And therefore has failed to learn even the smallest bit from her 'successes': Iraq, Libya, Ukraine and Syria.



Originally posted by SIGNYM: Hillary has personally and repeatedly attacked and antagonized Putin. The State Department- HER State Department - ran guns from Libyan jihadists to Syrian jihadists, via Turkey, after SHE successfully argued to destroy Libya. The State Department - HER state department- fomented, and encouraged the coup in Ukraine. Victoria Nuland- HER hand-picked employee- said much more than "fuck the EU", she also talked about "birthing this thing [the coup]" and "making it [the coup] stick". Intent much?
This is her history: after the 'success' called Iraq, she actively destroyed one country - Libya, crawled into bed with jihadists to destroy another - Syria, and fomented a coup and destroyed a third - Ukraine ... ... ... And now Hillary has been openly antagonizing and provoking a rival nuclear power. And she's even written it into the DNC platform. We don't have to guess what kind of deluded policy she might have. She's already proudly proclaimed it, as if it was a good thing.



Originally posted by SIGNYM:
NUCLEAR WAR
At the very top of my list of things I'm voting on is

No nuclear war.

Everything else comes a far distant second. Nothing should be more important than that. Global warming is slow suicide, The fact that our economy is saddled with an unsupportable number of parasites at the top is a serious problem. But we won't be able to solve ANY of these things of it all goes up in a flash, or- worse yet- suffers slow radiation burn.





Originally posted by SIGNYM:During the debate, Trump renounced first use. (Then ,of course, he waffled because anybody who negotiates anything doesn't want to give away a point for free; even I know that.)

HILLARY WAS SILENT ON THE TOPIC.

Of course she was.



She thinks she can force Russia to back down everywhere by being more willing to blow up the world than Putin. Not only is this thinking vastly unethical and fully sociopathic, it is delusional. At some point, Russia will respond. Putin has said openly and repeatedly that in the next world war, the USA isn't going to sit this one out while everyone else gets destroyed.

Anyone who ignores that warning doesn't deserve to be in the White House, because that person is endangering all of us. Reagan knew better, so should Hillary.


Even worse - US nuclear policy is to reserve the 'first-strike' right. Or in less jargon-laden words: The US reserves the right to launch nuclear missiles FIRST, BEFORE a confirmed nuclear launch has been made against it. US policy is to reserve the right to start a nuclear war.

As former Secretary of State, Clinton knows this.

What does her coy, smug silence about US nuclear policy say to you? Because it means to me that she wants to trick you into thinking she's got better ideas than anybody ... and to avoid the facts so that you won't know about them, or have an opinion about them, or her.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 3, 2016 4:35 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Meanwhile, so it doesn't get lost in the noise
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But the real reason for my fear and loathing of Hillary is not that's she evil- which I think she is - but that
she's DANGEROUSLY DELUSIONAL


Except we all know it you and SIG that are dangerously delusional.

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Monday, October 3, 2016 4:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Meanwhile, so it doesn't get lost in the noise
Originally posted by 1kiki:
second

you started with an insult "You've been listening to Trump again, haven't you? What made you think Trump knows what he is talking about? Your common sense?" then went on to address a point I never made.
You were talking about trade deficits being bad. ... a half-trillion-dollar trade deficit ... Trade deficits are not inherently ... eliminating the trade deficit would not ... the fact that the United States has a trade deficit does not ... trying to eliminate the trade deficit ... Getting rid of the trade deficit ...
I was talking about LOSS OF MANUFACTURING JOBS being bad, with trade deficits being a measure of manufacturing job loss. A point I made TWICE, in different words, so you might grasp my point.

As for the snark you repeated, TWICE, I'm going to credit you with being lazy and inattentive, rather than assume you're too stupid to understand the difference between what I posted and what you claim I posted, or too dishonest to admit it.

So, maybe you can try engaging your brain and respond to what I posted. Care to try again?





Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!


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Monday, October 3, 2016 4:46 PM

THGRRI


Post-debate, Clinton takes the lead

CNN) — Hillary Clinton emerges from the first presidential debate with a five-point lead over Donald Trump in the race for the presidency, having narrowed the enthusiasm gap between her supporters and Trump's, and holding broad advantages over the Republican nominee as the candidate with the right temperament and preparation for the job, according to a new CNN/ORC poll.

The survey finds Clinton topping Trump 47% to 42% among likely voters with Libertarian nominee Gary Johnson at 7% and Green Party nominee Jill Stein at 2%.

Clinton's boost in the race stems largely from gains on Trump among men (from a 22-point deficit with that group in early September to just a 5-point one now) and sharply increased support from independents, who broke heavily in Trump's favor in the early September poll but now tilt Clinton, 44% to 37%.

http://fireflyfans.net/mreply.aspx?mid=1017236

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Tuesday, October 4, 2016 1:59 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I'm glad to see you're finally coming around to what I predicted weeks ago - Clinton will win.

It's time to stop obsessing over Trump. In fact, it's time to stop posting about him at all.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Tuesday, October 4, 2016 11:03 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Clinton will win.




Yep

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Tuesday, October 4, 2016 12:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Meanwhile, so it doesn't get lost in the noise
Originally posted by 1kiki:
second

you started with an insult "You've been listening to Trump again, haven't you? What made you think Trump knows what he is talking about? Your common sense?" then went on to address a point I never made.
You were talking about trade deficits being bad. ... a half-trillion-dollar trade deficit ... Trade deficits are not inherently ... eliminating the trade deficit would not ... the fact that the United States has a trade deficit does not ... trying to eliminate the trade deficit ... Getting rid of the trade deficit ...
I was talking about LOSS OF MANUFACTURING JOBS being bad, with trade deficits being a measure of manufacturing job loss. A point I made TWICE, in different words, so you might grasp my meaning.

As for the snark you repeated, TWICE, after letting it go, I'm going to return some: I'm going to credit you with being lazy and inattentive, rather than assume you're too stupid to understand the difference between what I posted and what you claim I posted, or too dishonest to admit it. Even though not only did you snark, you repeated the exact same strawman TWICE as well.

So, maybe you can try engaging your brain and respond to what I posted. Care to try again?





Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Friday, October 7, 2016 1:13 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
This where I found a serious problem with Hillary (and the media).

She seems to go by the motto

If you lie, lie BIG! (And, note to self, make sure the media is with you.)




Rudy Giuliani’s Daughter Is Voting For Hillary Clinton



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rudy-giuliani-daughter-clinton_us_
57f7bc99e4b068ecb5ddd201?section=&
;

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