Shepard - Former Operative? by mirak

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Shepard - Former Operative?

POSTED BY: MIRAK
UPDATED: Monday, February 20, 2006 10:35
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Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:08 PM

After watching Serenity, I have to conclude that Shepherd is a former operative. I watched that last scene with the Operative when he says he is going to disappear and I thought – “that is Shepherd 30 years ago.”

Thoughts? Sorry if this has already been discussed – it’s probably not a very profound theory.

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:10 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

That was certainly what I left the theater thinking. Some people have vehemently disagreed with this, but I think it's the impression we're meant to be left with.

I hope The Operative goes and finds something better to believe in.

History repeats the old conceits

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Updated! Improved! Shiny!

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:12 PM

SAZMAN

I've had this thought as well. Remember the episode "Safe". Book is shot, and when the Alliance sees his ID card, he gets top-notch medical care.

I've had this weird thought that the Operative was indeed Book, and that somehow our Book came from the future, perhaps with the intention of stopping himself from succeeding in the past.

No proof, I know, but I thought this almost immediately, when I saw how it ended with him and Mal talking.

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 2:17 PM

SHINYFLY

I've pondered this with my brother, and we've come up with two options...1. He was an Operative or 2. He was a bounty hunter sometimes hired by the Alliance to do their dirty work. Remember OIS when Early says,"That's no Shephard." Could be they've crossed paths.Also explains his weapons knowledge...

"Oh,God! I can't know that!"

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 3:00 PM

JOSSISAGOD

Potential novel spoilers:

I agree with you on the Shepard operative theory. but I'll also pose on of my one, in the novel The Op. comes up to Book after he shoots down "the ship that killed us," and says something about book not deserving the sword in the gut treatment The Op. gives everyone else, something about the stuff Shepard has done in the past. my theory is that Book was involved in the PAX project that engineered the reavers, since the reavers showed up about the same time as the start of the Unification Wars, my theory is that The Alliance engineered the PAX to create docile soliders that felt little pain like the soliders Max from Dark Angel fought that made her put that metal thing in her neck. But, The Alliance screwed up and overdosed the people and made them insane. This, of course made Book repent and find God.

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 3:02 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

Except the Operative knows nothing about the Pax or what happened on Miranda until he sees the broadcast.

History repeats the old conceits

www.projectgreatness.com
Updated! Improved! Shiny!

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 3:06 PM

JOSSISAGOD

Good point!

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 4:09 PM

GUERILLATHEATRE

I put two and two together at the end of Serenity. If you'll notice, the Operative is dressed very similar to Book. He even carries himself with a similar posture.

That, to me, combined with the info in "Safe" led me to believe that Book was indeed an Operative.

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 4:15 PM

JONESRA

Also, the Operative is a believer. Perhaps Book was a believer who found a higher calling and stopped believing in the Alliance. Knowing this, that may be why the Operative didn't give him the old "hold my sword for a sec" treatment.

There's also a good chance I am wrong and way off base

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 4:41 PM

FLAUTISTFIRST

It does seem that Book was at a minimum involved with the Alliance on a high level before he "retired" and became a Shepherd. Remember what River hears him say in OIS--"I don't give 2 humps if you're innocent. So where does that leave us." And he said it with much anger.

Rather than an Operative, I've been thinking that he was involved with the Unification War and had something to do with the Battle of Serenity. Something that lead to the extended suffering of the Browncoats. And then after witnessing the suffering he caused, he lost his belief in the Alliance. Just a guess.

One thing I've noticed about Book and Mal is that their histories seem to be opposite. Mal clearly believed in what he fought for in the war (still does) and before the Battle of Serenity, Mal was a devote Christian (peptalk to other soldiers, kissing the cross). He lost the belief in God at the BoS, where I think Book found a belief in God at the BoS. The two really do respect each other, which is why Book doesn't push Mal to believe the same as Book does, but rather to believe in what Mal is doing.

Just my .02. I love having these kinds of discussions.

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 4:48 PM

20THCENTFOXHATER

I'm not too sure if you've heard the stuff from Whedon or not, but Joss has said that he had no real say over the novel. Because if he did, he would just end up writing it himself!

I think Keith R.A. DeCandido said it in one of the Firefly Talk podcasts when they had his interview on. Not 100% sure though.

The novel was obviously good and whatnot, but don't consider it Firefly canon.

"I aim to misbehave."
"Can't do something smart, do something right".

HOMER: "Oh Lisa, you and your stories; Bart is a vampire, beer kills brain cells. Now lets go back to that... building thingy... where our beds and T.V.... is".

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 5:42 PM

ISAACSHEPHERD

I'm not sure what else Book could be besides either an Operative or formerly connected with Alliance. On reguard to someone's previous statement on Jubal stating that Book isn't a Shepard I have another theory on that.
I think that Jubal may be a failed or outdated experiement. Perhaps an experiment before River. In Objects in Space, Simon asks Jubal if he's Alliance, and Jubal's return comment seemed odd, like something River could have said. Another part was when Simon was going to attack Early but he already knew without looking, I'm guessing possibly psychic abilities, along with identifying Book not being a Shepherd.
Yeah it is a bit off subject but I don't think Shepherd would have met Jubal before, although it may be possible that he was a bounty hunter. I would see Book as more of an Operative though. I don't think the Alliance would immediately operate on someone (as they did in Safe) on an old bounty hunter. He must have had some very high up connections before or during the Unification War.
IS

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 7:36 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
Another part was when Simon was going to attack Early but he already knew without looking, I'm guessing possibly psychic abilities....

I'm not going to argue with your main points (as they do seem to be plausible) but I feel it important to note that if you are standing near a railing overlooking a 30 foot drop and there is a person behind you who has an interest in causing you to fall it doesn't require psychic abilities to surmise they might try to push you off.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:00 PM

SULTEN

I don't think that Book was an operative or a bounty hunter. I think that he was either some sort of general or Alliance Parlament member. (perhaps a "KEY MEMBER") I didnt think that his fighting abilities were at operative level, despite his age, seemed more like well trained military is all. I think if he was high ranking military it would explain alot of his knowlege, about regulations, weapons, ships and being calm when

hits the fan. I don't know if Book was anywhere near Serenity Valley, but he does seem to have a mild dislike for the Alliance for some reason. I do not accept any evidence from the book because Joss had very little to do with it, if any. As to Jubal Early saying Book wasnt a Sheppard. I dont know why he may have said that. I dont think jubal is any sort of physcic, just attentive, other wise he prolly would have seen Mal comming ontop of the ship. perhaps Jubal could see sometimg in Books eyes that betrayed his past.

Jayne! The hero of Canton. I LOVE VERA!

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:07 PM

JBAILEY612

Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
I'm not sure what else Book could be besides either an Operative or formerly connected with Alliance. On reguard to someone's previous statement on Jubal stating that Book isn't a Shepard I have another theory on that.
I think that Jubal may be a failed or outdated experiement. Perhaps an experiment before River. In Objects in Space, Simon asks Jubal if he's Alliance, and Jubal's return comment seemed odd, like something River could have said. Another part was when Simon was going to attack Early but he already knew without looking, I'm guessing possibly psychic abilities, along with identifying Book not being a Shepherd.
Yeah it is a bit off subject but I don't think Shepherd would have met Jubal before, although it may be possible that he was a bounty hunter. I would see Book as more of an Operative though. I don't think the Alliance would immediately operate on someone (as they did in Safe) on an old bounty hunter. He must have had some very high up connections before or during the Unification War.
IS

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:07 PM

JBAILEY612

Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
I'm not sure what else Book could be besides either an Operative or formerly connected with Alliance. On reguard to someone's previous statement on Jubal stating that Book isn't a Shepard I have another theory on that.
I think that Jubal may be a failed or outdated experiement. Perhaps an experiment before River. In Objects in Space, Simon asks Jubal if he's Alliance, and Jubal's return comment seemed odd, like something River could have said. Another part was when Simon was going to attack Early but he already knew without looking, I'm guessing possibly psychic abilities, along with identifying Book not being a Shepherd.
Yeah it is a bit off subject but I don't think Shepherd would have met Jubal before, although it may be possible that he was a bounty hunter. I would see Book as more of an Operative though. I don't think the Alliance would immediately operate on someone (as they did in Safe) on an old bounty hunter. He must have had some very high up connections before or during the Unification War.
IS

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:08 PM

JBAILEY612

Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
I'm not sure what else Book could be besides either an Operative or formerly connected with Alliance. On reguard to someone's previous statement on Jubal stating that Book isn't a Shepard I have another theory on that.
I think that Jubal may be a failed or outdated experiement. Perhaps an experiment before River. In Objects in Space, Simon asks Jubal if he's Alliance, and Jubal's return comment seemed odd, like something River could have said. Another part was when Simon was going to attack Early but he already knew without looking, I'm guessing possibly psychic abilities, along with identifying Book not being a Shepherd.
Yeah it is a bit off subject but I don't think Shepherd would have met Jubal before, although it may be possible that he was a bounty hunter. I would see Book as more of an Operative though. I don't think the Alliance would immediately operate on someone (as they did in Safe) on an old bounty hunter. He must have had some very high up connections before or during the Unification War.
IS

My only comment on the back story of Book:

Could Book have a "fake-id" Ident Card?

And the most puzzling clue to Book is in Out of Gas. When facing a certain death, Book is on the verge of a breakdown while skimming the good book. If Book was an Operative, I conjure that he would face death a mite different.

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Monday, February 20, 2006 5:37 AM

MIRAK

I think it is interesting how similar Early and the Operative are. Their fighting “style” is identical, they’re both sadists, and they both like to wax poetic. The only difference I can see is that Early only has his bounty hunter “code” whereas the Operative Believes.

Perhaps this difference is all that keeps Early as an independent contractor, while the Operative is more an Alliance employee.

Also, I know this isn’t PC, but you can’t overlook the fact that Early, the Op, and Shepherd are all black. Why is it that the only three black characters of any significance seem to have so much in common? Perhaps they are even loosely related? I’m not talking about second cousins – maybe they all come from some secret and exclusive warrior society.

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Monday, February 20, 2006 5:41 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by mirak:
Also, I know this isn’t PC, but you can’t overlook the fact that Early, the Op, and Shepherd are all black. Why is it that the only three black characters of any significance

*cough cough* Zoe *cough cough*

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Monday, February 20, 2006 5:52 AM

GRIZWALD

I guess we'll all find out for sure with the next movie (hopehopehope) - maybe there will be a new character, played by a greying Chiwetel Ejiofor, named Shepherd Fountainpen or something like that.

(Gina Torres is Cuban American. Not sure what Zoe's background is meant to be, other than beautiful and powerful.)

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Monday, February 20, 2006 6:14 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD

Quote:
Originally posted by mirak:

Also, I know this isn’t PC, but you can’t overlook the fact that Early, the Op, and Shepherd are all black. Why is it that the only three black characters of any significance seem to have so much in common? Perhaps they are even loosely related? I’m not talking about second cousins – maybe they all come from some secret and exclusive warrior society.

I was just thinking this same thing about half a week ago, cept it was more along the lines of "Why are all the black characters bad asses?"

Also, I don't think the fighting styles are anywhere near identical. Jubal uses a lot of spinning high kicks and sweeps, while the Op looks to be all about getting in close, wing chug arm folding, muay thai clenches and elbpws, and of course jiu-jitsu joint locks and pressure points, or san shou if you prefer.

Have you ever:
Used your teeth as wire strippers?
Given yourself stitches?
Made improvised munitions with no base supplies?
Pissed in a canteen?
Gone a month without bathing?

If so, you MIGHT just be a !HOOAH MOTHERF*CKER!

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Monday, February 20, 2006 7:33 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by grizwald:
Gina Torres is Cuban American.

Yes. She's also black. What's your point?

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Monday, February 20, 2006 10:01 AM

STEAMBOAT28

Having not seen the series yet (it's being delivered soon!), and being new to the ranks of the Browncoats, my insight on Shepherd Book will come solely from Serenity: the Movie, and my own inferences.

The first time I saw Shepherd Book in the film, I could tell he was a semi-important cast member that all the fans would immediately recognize, and that he fills the role in Serenity (and possibly Firefly) of the Sage, an archetype who constantly gives wisdom and has more knowledge than they should.

I wasn't sure about the Operative, but forum-talk about the flick told me he was a new character. That being said, it's extremely apparent that Shepherd Book knows the intricacies of the Alliance personally and first-hand from the conversations held about the Op.

For example, Operative seems to be a proper designation; a title, not a job description. The scientists in the intro were put off by his lack of name or rank (they weren't expecting it), indicating an ignorance of his position. This leads one (at least a new fan) to believe that the status of Operative is a more...clandestine position. The fact that Shepherd clearly knows quite a bit about this position is shown in his conversation with Mal.

Quote:
...an Operative, and that's trouble you've not known...

The way Shepherd talks about the Op, it seems as if he knows quite intimately about their operating procedures. IMO, he's either a former Op, or worked for those that sanction and train Ops.

Of course, this is all coming from a brand new fan, who's never seen the series, and overlooks one point: If Book was an Op, wouldn't he lack name/rank as well? And if so, Where did he acquire the name he goes by now? Did he choose it? if so, why?

My $0.02

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Monday, February 20, 2006 10:26 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD

I beleive that in the two hour pilot episode, also entitled "Serenity", Shepherd spouts the phrase "They called me 'Book' at the abby". Who knows what that could mean.

As for "Shepherd", that's not actually his name, it's a title for priests/preachers of his denomination of Christianity. I remember after seeing the movie, I thought it was his name for a while, and was udner that impression up untill I finally saw the series on DVD about a week ago.

Have you ever:
Used your teeth as wire strippers?
Given yourself stitches?
Made improvised munitions with no base supplies?
Pissed in a canteen?
Gone a month without bathing?

If so, you MIGHT just be a !HOOAH MOTHERF*CKER!

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Monday, February 20, 2006 10:35 AM

STEAMBOAT28

Quote:

As for "Shepherd", that's not actually his name, it's a title for priests/preachers of his denomination of Christianity. I remember after seeing the movie, I thought it was his name for a while, and was udner that impression up untill I finally saw the series on DVD about a week ago.

yeah, i thought that at first 'til i IMDB'd the movie and figured out that Shepherd was a title, and that his name was something like Derrial or somesuch.

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