Alliance Helmets: German WWII helmets??? by BrownCoat1

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Alliance Helmets: German WWII helmets???

POSTED BY: BROWNCOAT1
UPDATED: Saturday, January 17, 2004 17:18
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3811
PAGE 1 of 1

Thursday, January 15, 2004 7:47 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Ok, so I was watching "The Message" again last night and again it struck me as odd that the helmet the Alliance scout that Zoe kills is wearing is identical to the German helmet of WWII.

We all know Joss is big on imagery & suggestion, so I began thinking this was another way of portraying the Alliance as fascists, the "bad guys" if you will.

I am sure others noticed this as well, and wanted to get your thoughts.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:21 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Ok, so I was watching "The Message" again last night and again it struck me as odd that the helmet the Alliance scout that Zoe kills is wearing is identical to the German helmet of WWII.

We all know Joss is big on imagery & suggestion, so I began thinking this was another way of portraying the Alliance as fascists, the "bad guys" if you will.

I am sure others noticed this as well, and wanted to get your thoughts.

The alliance combat uniforms come from the movie Starship Troopers. The helmets from that movie use the same design of current US Army helmets which, oddly enough, is the same overall form as the German Army helmets from WW 2. In the commentary Joss says the Starship Troopers uniforms were used because they could be rented cheap.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:39 AM

GUNSLINGER

When the Kevlar (PAGSAT) helmet was first tested in the early 80s one of the concerns about its design was how much it looked like the "Fritz" helmet used by he Germans in both WWI and WWII. It is a classic case of convergent evolution. It is a highly effective shape. From what I can tell, at least some of the helmets in the show are dressed up bicycle helmets.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:46 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
The alliance combat uniforms come from the movie Starship Troopers. The helmets from that movie use the same design of current US Army helmets which, oddly enough, is the same overall form as the German Army helmets from WW 2. In the commentary Joss says the Starship Troopers uniforms were used because they could be rented cheap.

H

I am not talking about the helmets from the troopers in the railcar in "Train Job". I recognized those for Starship Troopers. I know a lot of Sci Fi shows had been using them & figured it was because they were cheap to rent.

The helmet I am talking about is the solid black one that the scout in the flashback sequence of "The Message" was wearing. His entire uniform, LBE & weapons were black; for stealth purposes I am sure. When they show him close up, his helmet is clearly not a kevlar helmet the armed forces are using now. I was in the service and am familiar w/ the kevlar helmet. The one the Alliance scout had on was easily recognized as the German WWII helmet. It is thin metal, not the thicker kevlar.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:56 AM

PHLEBOTININ

In that long NY Times article from 2002 "Must-See Metaphysics" about Joss and Firefly, Joss went on at length about how the Alliance is not meant to always be the clear-cut Big Bad. Joss made the point that sometimes the Alliance is good (the e.g. he used was the U.S. in Europe fighting the Germans during WWII), sometimes not so much (the U.S. in Vietnam). I like this shades of grayishness. Joss said that Mal wouldn't necessarily be able to perceive when the Alliance was being good because Mal is metaphorically "Vietnamese."

I guess what I'm trying to say is that based on this NY Times interview, I'm not sure that Joss would have been trying to get across that the Alliance were straight-ahead fascists. Damn. I wish we could just ask him.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:17 AM

TOM

Yea it was a german WWII helmet used in that scene it is also used in a scene in serenity when mal is going for the aa gun. maybe it is for a different type of soldier. similar to today where the more elite special forces wear helmets that are different to the kevlar.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:19 AM

SERGEANTX

Thanks Plebotinin,

Do you have a link to that article?

I've noticed that same thing as the episodes developed. I've even surmised that we might have seen a transformation of sorts in Mal, with him perhaps coming to terms with the very points you just made. The seeds of this seem to me to be there. The Alliance officers we've seen so far have been a mixed bunch so far with only the blue hands people looking out-and-out evil. And while its not entirely clear how they're connected to the Alliance, they don't seem to represent its mainstream attitude.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:21 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
Yea it was a german WWII helmet used in that scene it is also used in a scene in serenity when mal is going for the aa gun. maybe it is for a different type of soldier. similar to today where the more elite special forces wear helmets that are different to the kevlar.

Could be, or it could be that the helmet from the scene I am describing was the helmet they used during the Unification War. The Starship Trooper ones we see in "Train Job" are a new model.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:32 AM

HERO

Alliance officers and even everyday citizens are consumed with self-interest and greed.

We see the same thing here in the US when the Democrats debate.

All they need are some Nazi hats and an inflated sense of destiny and they might actually win the coming election. Not to mention some flying pigs and an admission that global warming is having an opposite effect in Hell.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:41 AM

PHLEBOTININ

SergeantX,

alas, I don't have a link to that article. I just have a dog-eared old hard-copy of it. I know you can download the article from the NY Times website for something like $2.95. It's a pretty good article, I'd say. It's not totally about Firefly, but there's some good stuff in there about Joss's philosophy of the show. There's a lot about Joss's background and influences and the writer clearly finds him and his work original and impressive. If you're interested, go to www.nytimes.com (you might have to register, but that's free) and then do a search in the archives for an article in 2000 entitled "Must-See Metaphysics."

Speaking of the Alliance being shades of gray, did you read the Heart of Gold script? Definitely shades of gray going on there, with Mal perhaps starting to realize it. Interesting stuff.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:44 AM

PHLEBOTININ

SergeantX,

sorry, but a correction: the article "Must-See Metaphysics" appeared in September 2002, not 2000. Don't know what I was thinking. And the author was Emily Nussbaum.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:57 AM

SERGEANTX

Thanks for the info, I'll look for that article. I never read the Heart of Gold script, just watched the episode. Did they leave out something significant?

I thought the whole point of 'The Message' was the idea of Mal's old war buddy reminding him of what they were actually doing, i.e. Robbing and killing. Granted, Mal is at heart a good person, but there's definitely a contradiction between his sense of honor and righteousness and the types of situations they routinely find themselves in. I think the old army buddy served as an example of how ugly that can get.

Quote:
Tracey: .. I still remember the old sarge with his stories and his homilies of glory and honor.

Mal: Maybe you shoulda listened.

Tracey: Yeah, well what are you now? What are we now, Mal?

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 11:01 AM

PHLEBOTININ

Whoops, SergeantX, I think I'm losing my mind today. I meant to say "Dead or Alive" rather than "Heart of Gold." You're right, I don't remember much about the Alliance being shades of gray in Heart of Gold!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 11:10 AM

SERGEANTX

I just thought of another interesting point concerning the helmet. The flashback scene, being a flashback would have represented their memories of the events, and would have therefore been colored by their own perceptions of who was good and evil. In that context it makes perfect sense (from our current historical perspective concerning Nazis) to have the Alliance soldier dressed like a German soldier, wereas in "Train Job" we are perhaps getting a more accurate picture of Alliance troops.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 15, 2004 11:41 AM

EARLY

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I just thought of another interesting point concerning the helmet. The flashback scene, being a flashback would have represented their memories of the events, and would have therefore been colored by their own perceptions of who was good and evil. In that context it makes perfect sense (from our current historical perspective concerning Nazis) to have the Alliance soldier dressed like a German soldier, wereas in "Train Job" we are perhaps getting a more accurate picture of Alliance troops.

I gotta say I'm douting that one. It was probably the uniform that they used in the war. The troops we see now may be more of a police force which if you look at it one seems all soldiery like and the starship troopers seem more s.w.a.t.ified. Wouldn't really need an actual "military" now that there is no one left to fight, but a militarized police force to keep order would be just the thing for a centralized nanny government.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 16, 2004 1:52 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Ok, so I was watching "The Message" again last night and again it struck me as odd that the helmet the Alliance scout that Zoe kills is wearing is identical to the German helmet of WWII.

Have you looked at modern helmets of late? The distinctive feature is the way the helmets covers the ears. Most militaries are going to this style, because, its safer for the troops wearing them. Better protection.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 16, 2004 4:42 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Ok, so I was watching "The Message" again last night and again it struck me as odd that the helmet the Alliance scout that Zoe kills is wearing is identical to the German helmet of WWII.

Have you looked at modern helmets of late? The distinctive feature is the way the helmets covers the ears. Most militaries are going to this style, because, its safer for the troops wearing them. Better protection.

Read my 2nd post in this thread Drakon:

Quote:
I am not talking about the helmets from the troopers in the railcar in "Train Job". I recognized those for Starship Troopers. I know a lot of Sci Fi shows had been using them & figured it was because they were cheap to rent.

The helmet I am talking about is the solid black one that the scout in the flashback sequence of "The Message" was wearing. His entire uniform, LBE & weapons were black; for stealth purposes I am sure. When they show him close up, his helmet is clearly not a kevlar helmet the armed forces are using now. I was in the service and am familiar w/ the kevlar helmet. The one the Alliance scout had on was easily recognized as the German WWII helmet. It is thin metal, not the thicker kevlar.

I have seen the modern kevlar helmet, even had one when I was in back in the late 80s to mid 90s, and what the scout was wearing is not it.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, January 17, 2004 5:18 PM

TOM

Another thing to think of the browncoats in serenity were wearing WWII US GI helmets

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE