Character subtext... some ruminatin' ... by Ghoulman

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I don't think you are off at all Ghoulman.

I think, as you said, that each of the characters is on Serenity by choice. To Mal, it is home, a symbol of his freedom and a act of defiance against the Alliance.

Zoe is there because of her ties to Mal and the bonds they forged during the war. Wash is there because at first it was a job, but he now stays because he is married to Zoe.

Simon is there because he is on the run from the Alliance w/ River, and quite honestly he feels his chances are better w/ Mal and crew. He knows from experience that Mal will fight to keep them safe and will not turn them in for the reward.

Kaylee is on Serenity because it was her ticket off of her home planet, and it is now her home.

Inara is there because she is running from something & she now has feelings for Mal.

Jayne is there for the money, he has nowhere else to go, and I think over time, he is coming to think of Serenity's crew as his family.

Book? Who knows for sure why Book is on the ship. Could be he is looking for something; absolution, peace, family, etc. He is the real mystery.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 9:08 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
What is Firefly about? It's about the characters.

There are nine main characters on the little 'boat' called Serenity. Each one a full glass of personality. Each one with a different motive, reason, and outlook on life out 'in the black'. Though they aren't a part of any organization or serve the authorities, they are silently commited to this life. It's never really stated but each character has had his or her moment of choice - each chose Serenity.

I think your ruminatin' is pretty much bang on. Firefly was about the characters - where they each were in their stage of life and how they reacted to their environment. Each chose Serenity for different reasons, and each will do whatever they have to in order to defend their choice. In the end that probably meant becoming something of a family whether they chose to let that happen or not. They would begin to rely on each other for the different pieces that each character uniquely provides.

And it would be amazing to be able to see how far all those character dynamics will go.

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 9:34 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Originally posted by Channain:

Quote:

I think your ruminatin' is pretty much bang on. Firefly was about the characters - where they each were in their stage of life and how they reacted to their environment. Each chose Serenity for different reasons, and each will do whatever they have to in order to defend their choice. In the end that probably meant becoming something of a family whether they chose to let that happen or not. They would begin to rely on each other for the different pieces that each character uniquely provides.

And it would be amazing to be able to see how far all those character dynamics will go.

I agree.

It was the characters and the feeling conveyed that they were real, that their problems were real. They make us laugh, and we want to shout when they one up the bad guys.

I am so hoping that Joss gets the movie done so I can see where we go from here.

(Guess this is how some people act over soap operas; can't wait until they get their next fix)

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:22 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
(Guess this is how some people act over soap operas; can't wait until they get their next fix)

Or how they act over Babylon5, or FarScape, or Deep Space 9, or Angel, and sometimes even Stargate. I've lived from week to week with all of these, living in fear for the moment when they would come to an end. Firefly grabbed me the same way, and when it was over *sniff* I went on the Internet looking for something to fill the void left behind. FFF.net has done a lot to help that feeling of emptiness, but it's not quite the same. I wouldn't be here quite as much as I am if the show was still on, because everything I need would be right where it's supposed to be, touching my heart again from week to week.

The Firefly crew was created in such a way that you felt like you knew them instantly. It's absurd, I know, but in a way I think we all came to think of them in the same way we think of the friends we've made as adults - as part of an extended family. Firefly made us live for 10 characters (let's not forget Serenity), and all it took was 10 episodes to pull us all in. Now THAT is quality TV, and that's why I'm still a fan - a browncoat. Because these are stories that deserve to be finished.

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:07 AM

... just as in 'real' life - we have our emotional needs. Needs that often govern our lives. On Firefly the characters too have a deep need for a 'place'. Some peace. Even if it's the relative peace in a room down the hall from Jayne.

What I mean is - in drama and life we never state our needs nor even really know what they are... however... they are everything.

And this is what keeps the crew together on Serenity.

I gotta say, Inara is prolly hip to this dynamic and I think she shows it. Hmmm.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:07 AM

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:08 AM

DoH!

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 12:14 PM

Oh, and that is why the characterizations on Firefly are so brilliant. The dynamic is obious and we feel it. It never needs to be said.

Thank you Joss Whedon for these great characters! This great show! CANCELLED?!?!?! What the F...

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:28 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Originally posted by Channain:

Quote:
Or how they act over Babylon5, or FarScape, or Deep Space 9, or Angel, and sometimes even Stargate. I've lived from week to week with all of these, living in fear for the moment when they would come to an end. Firefly grabbed me the same way, and when it was over *sniff* I went on the Internet looking for something to fill the void left behind. FFF.net has done a lot to help that feeling of emptiness, but it's not quite the same. I wouldn't be here quite as much as I am if the show was still on, because everything I need would be right where it's supposed to be, touching my heart again from week to week.

You know, it is funny. I like Stargate SG1, have watched every episode, some many times, and I never miss a new episode, I dread the enivtable end of the series this spring, but I have never felt the need to go online and talk about SG:SG1.

Oh, I have checked out the website, scanned some of the info up on the site, but I have never felt compelled to go to any forum and discuss the show. Yet, here I am, every day, without fail on FFF.net, or over at the official board, reading, posting, checking out fanfic. I have just never had a show get to me the way this one has done.

Quote:
The Firefly crew was created in such a way that you felt like you knew them instantly. It's absurd, I know, but in a way I think we all came to think of them in the same way we think of the friends we've made as adults - as part of an extended family. Firefly made us live for 10 characters (let's not forget Serenity), and all it took was 10 episodes to pull us all in. Now THAT is quality TV, and that's why I'm still a fan - a browncoat. Because these are stories that deserve to be finished.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I am glad to have what we do of Firefly, even if we never get another thing.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:48 AM

You know, Browncoat1 and Channain, all these other shows have a certain degree of Sci-Fi and characterization. Star Trek had formed the basis for this 'format'. You know how people accuse FOX of cancelling Firefly because 'it isn't Star Trek'? Well, what this really means is that Joss and his crew didn't follow a perceived successful formula.

Which is why I didn't watch B5. It's just watered down Trek to me. Not a horrible show but it's baseline TV to me. SG-1 is virtually the same formula too.

When Firefly came along I was floored (once I got over FOX screwing the show into the ground) and I am still mightily pissed this show wasn't even given a chance. Finally we were treated to a show that gave us actual characters instead of the watered down icons masquerading as persons. We could have finally had a Sci-Fi show that wasn't just living a parsitical existance off 40 year old Star Trek shows.

Characters. Real characterization.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:04 PM

SADLITTLEKING

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Firefly made us live for 10 characters (let's not forget Serenity)...

I count 11 characters. Mal has a wife.

Well, legally.

Seriously, it's amazing to me that even the guest characters like Saffron, Early, Badger, and Niska all were well-rounded, very three-dimensional, and had their own stories to explore. That's one of the reasons that the episode Trash was a total enjoyment for me. It was great to see a bit of the inner-workings of Saffron...and how easily she can push aside those inner-workings to betray people in an effort to make a quick buck. I would've loved to see Saffron in more episodes as well as Early, Badger, and Niska. Great characters, all of 'em.

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Friday, February 6, 2004 3:38 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by SadLittleKing:
I count 11 characters. Mal has a wife.

Well, legally.

Seriously, it's amazing to me that even the guest characters like Saffron, Early, Badger, and Niska all were well-rounded, very three-dimensional, and had their own stories to explore.

I stand corrected

I just watched Heart of Gold last night with a couple friends, and one of them mentioned how that episode offered a deeper look into the Companion culture. We learned just a bit more about Inara from Nandi's second-party exposition than we had previously which added to Inara's mystique and enhanced her appeal at the same time. Nandi herself was an amazing character, so well developed and intricate that I think we all would have enjoyed seeing her again.

Joss Whedon raised the bar for all of us. I don't think we'll be able to watch sci-fi or any genre of TV the same way again.

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Friday, February 6, 2004 4:24 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Ghoulman wrote:

Quote:
You know, Browncoat1 and Channain, all these other shows have a certain degree of Sci-Fi and characterization. Star Trek had formed the basis for this 'format'. You know how people accuse FOX of cancelling Firefly because 'it isn't Star Trek'? Well, what this really means is that Joss and his crew didn't follow a perceived successful formula.

Which is why I didn't watch B5. It's just watered down Trek to me. Not a horrible show but it's baseline TV to me. SG-1 is virtually the same formula too.

I agree that Star Trek set the initial standard to which many would hold later sci fi show to in comparison. I remember as a child watching Star Trek in syndication and thinking how great it all seemed. When I watch an episode today, I find myself enjoying the characters and the not so subtle satire of then current events.

I try not to compare one show to another as I think each has something to offer, and should be judged on its own merits. If I tried to hold other sci fi to Firefly's standards, they would all fall short & I would most likely swear off of the genre.

I did watch B5, but not w/ the rapt attention I do FF, and if I missed an episode, eh, no big deal. Stargate SG1 I follow pretty closely, though some of the episodes in the past two seasons have seemed pretty weak writing wise.

Quote:
When Firefly came along I was floored (once I got over FOX screwing the show into the ground) and I am still mightily pissed this show wasn't even given a chance. Finally we were treated to a show that gave us actual characters instead of the watered down icons masquerading as persons. We could have finally had a Sci-Fi show that wasn't just living a parsitical existance off 40 year old Star Trek shows.

Characters. Real characterization.

I was floored by FF too. It was unlike anything I had ever seen. It took my two favorite types of shows, westerns and sci fi, and blended them to make a unique universe. If anyone had ever asked me if I thought someone could pull off a sci fi/western, I most likely would have laughed at them.

I remember when Fox screwed around, airing episodes out of order, preempting for baseball, etc, and I remember my frustration. I also remember thinking to myself "this show is doomed. No way are they going to keep it because I love it and they are mishandling it". Guess I was right.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Friday, February 6, 2004 6:45 AM

I can see that you are a genre fan. Sure, I too like the spacey ships flying around an' all o' dat. Funny but the best things in TV Sci-Fi have been Star Trek and it's bastard children for the past ... er, in the past.

Now...

Here comes Firefly and the new Battlestar Galactica - both shows drop geek culture for actual drama and real characters. Characters played by real actors instead of, er, well Bruce Boxlighter... whatever his name is.

Remembering Mal with that crappy little part, no air left on the ship, staggering and almost dead. Right up to this point in the show we are trying to figure out why Mal is risking so much for this old ship. It's certainly not because of some silly notion of nobility and 'going down with the ship' but his desperate need to keep Serenity. To keep the house. To keep the family together.

Mal has invested his soul into Serenity. I can't tell you how thrilled I am to watch this level of drama on my TV. Other shows would explain to you what the moral is, what the character is about, why, etc. and ... jeez so much TV is complete crap topped up with horse pucks I gotta remind myslf that Firefly made me feel what Mal was feeling! IT MADE ME FEEL!!!

... not like that West Wing crap does that.

JOSS! Thanx! You and all your crew rock!

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Friday, February 6, 2004 1:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Here comes Firefly and the new Battlestar Galactica - both shows drop geek culture for actual drama and real characters. Characters played by real actors instead of, er, well Bruce Boxlighter... whatever his name is.

Okay, seconds out here....

There's room in this 'verse for all of us - I've not seen the new BG, but while it intrigues me I am concerned about the idea that somehow its an earnest 9/11 parable - that's the impression given from the interviews the staffers are giving.

I liked B5 because the characters weren't your Trek perfect types, and the scope was so epic. Its odd to see how B5 now gets lumped into the grandfathers of TV SF box - not to say that I can't see your point of view if you say its over-earnest or whatever, but I'll defend my corner to the end. Fall of Night, Z'Ha'Dum, Sleeping in Light, Fall of Centauri Prime etc.

I'll tell you one thing that has changed in TV SF - pace. Enterprise and SG1 (from what little I can stomach - never said I wasn't a hypocrite) remain what one would describe as slow (not to say "bad" inherently - Steven Poliakoff can't wrote "fast" to save his life, but his works are stunning), whereas Buffy and Angel moved towards the NYPD:Blue/West Wing structure - much faster paced. Firefly is a continuation of that. B5 and Farscape are somewhere in between I'd guess.

Btw, to remain a little on topic - my take on the Firefly characters, was that many of them had found their home in Serenity (Mal, Zoe, Kaylee). Jayne was there for the money and would have left at the drop of a (cunning) hat. Book was torn as per his scene in Serenity. Inara was drawn to it, and at the same time didn't fit. Simon and River seemed to be beginning to define the place as home, and Wash made it his home because of Zoe - I hadn't got the idea that he was the stereotypical pilot who sees the ship as an extension of them, unlike Kaylee.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Friday, February 6, 2004 1:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Well, what this really means is that Joss and his crew didn't follow a perceived successful formula. Which is why I didn't watch B5. It's just watered down Trek to me.

Call me over-protective (pause)

but... how can B5 be watered down Trek? It was telling a 5 year story where stuff mentioned in the pilot would not get paid off until year 4 or 5. Monumentally stupid given that no space-set show had ever lasted more than three seasons apart from a Trek spin-off.

I just wonder if shows like Farscape and, yes, Firefly, would have got even a toe in the door without B5 showing that the Space Opera (and make no mistake, Firefly is a Space Opera - galactic scale, old-fashioned values etc) that wasn't "based on Gene Rodenberry's Star Trek" could work.

Now, your second point on the characters, go for your life - matter of opinion whether you like them or not.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Friday, February 6, 2004 2:06 PM

"A lot of people don't get me an' Zoe at first..." - Wash.

Yea, I see what you mean.

Not that B5 and SG-1 aren't fun. I like 'em, for what they are. But it's getting tired as in those 70's cop shows that started to all look alike. Still, I fine both shows rather well writen and SG-1 is truly Sci-Fi in the best sense, there's stuff that's good there.

But, I think Browncoat1 said it best somewhere out there... Firefly has set a new standard. And I gotta point out I gotta wonder if the dopes at FOX were just looking at the formula of SG-1 and B5 and then saying Firefly isn't that... so cancel. Hmm.

And I loved the new Battlestar Galactica. Maybe 'drama' is too strong a word *chuckle* but pretty close. Like West Wing but with a better plot, and characters, and dialoge,... yea, liked it.

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Friday, February 6, 2004 2:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
But, I think Browncoat1 said it best somewhere out there... Firefly has set a new standard. And I gotta point out I gotta wonder if the dopes at FOX were just looking at the formula of SG-1 and B5 and then saying Firefly isn't that... so cancel. Hmm.

Heh heh - I love the idea of something being cancelled because it isn't B5 - tho I agree on SG1; cost-effective SF with an audience.

Of course, I've suffered through this twice - TNT cancelling Crusade and messing the order around - then again, that was " a special mini-series event" even before it aired.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Friday, February 6, 2004 2:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
And I loved the new Battlestar Galactica. Maybe 'drama' is too strong a word *chuckle* but pretty close. Like West Wing but with a better plot, and characters, and dialoge,... yea, liked it.

Seriously? Better than Sorkin West Wing? You have to be yanking my proverbial chain ;-)

I'm all for guilty pleasures - watch Equilibrium for the best, worst, SF movie of all time. It makes Matrix Revolutions look deep and meaningful with its Cliff Notes Philosophy, but I love it.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Monday, February 9, 2004 6:40 AM

^^^ I have a hate on for West Wing sooo I might be a little biased. But yea, the new BG was really spectacular. It's been picked up so check it out. Hey, I'd watch anything with Edward James Olmos in it.

I've never heard of Equilibrium but I'll look for it. Is it an American movie? Oh, if you dig the philosophy in the movies you must see the existential predestination of Donny Darko... great stuff.

And the productions above point out the real reasons the old formula doesn't work anymore... it's been done over an over. See, I truly believe that the marketing drones who write the scripts in Hollywoodland these days actually believe that people will just sit like zombies in front of the TV no matter how many adverts you spue at them.

well... bullplop! Have they not heard of the Net??? Have they not seen the DVD sales???

See, it would seem obvious to me that the SECOND people have an alternative and can find that deeper and better written TV show, movie, or song - people leave the old and redone. Like rats from a ship. In other words, 'good' material is competition to the studios boring old fomula.

I realize that in this scenario I've basically stated that FOX decided that Firefly was 'good' and immediately cancelled it on that basis.

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Monday, February 9, 2004 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
I have a hate on for West Wing sooo I might be a little biased. But yea, the new BG was really spectacular. It's been picked up so check it out. Hey, I'd watch anything with Edward James Olmos in it.

West Wing rules - at least the Sorkin stuff, and its slumps a few times in season 3 (not seen 4, I'm that far behind over here) and The Women of (forget the name) is one of the worst hours of TV in recent memory - mainly because WW has so far to fall. I am interested in the new BG, just not overly excited by its existence - which hopefully means it has room to suprise me.

Quote:

I've never heard of Equilibrium but I'll look for it. Is it an American movie? Oh, if you dig the philosophy in the movies you must see the existential predestination of Donny Darko... great stuff.

I think its a US/Euro mix. The lead is Christian Bale (Brit and the new Batman) and most of the cast are Brits, although some of them put on US accents for the overseas sales. Its cod philosophy at its worst (emotion causes war so they get rid of emotion and there are "sense offenders"), but has four or five fantastic and original fight sequences, stuff I'd not seen even in any Hong Kong movies.

Donnie Darko rules - don't understand a damn word, never want to.

Quote:

well... bullplop! Have they not heard of the Net??? Have they not seen the DVD sales???

Hate to say it, but we're the exception. The vast majority of people seem happy with mediocre crud. How many people watched that Reality TV wedding on your side of the pond (whereas on ours we have Celebrity Survivor in all but name sucking intelligence through the glass teat)

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 9:44 AM