a long wait for a train that don't come by cozen

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

a long wait for a train that don't come

POSTED BY: COZEN
UPDATED: Thursday, February 15, 2007 09:17
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Friday, February 9, 2007 10:27 AM

Seems to me that after everything that Malcolm Reynolds has had happen to him, that he still believes in God. Or, from my perspective, in the concept of "God". It's just that Reynolds would rather not have God on or about the good ship Serenity.

My own opinion is that the character Malcolm Reynolds is missing an important point. That point being: God, Allah, Jehovah & etc. are constructs invented by people each and every time humans come up against the conceptual trickster that is Infinity.

I'm no mathematician, but it seems to me that "infinity" has trumped folks, ie., mathematicians and physicists, who, for instance, have attempted to solve mysteries of the universe via string theory and the creation of this universe that we ponder. It seems to me that theologians are inclined to utilise the concept of God in a manner that allows them to escape explaining the ultimate beginning of the universe and the ultimate expanse of the universe in a way that is grounded in common sense. By which I mean religious scholars invoke the spirit of God in such a way as to make it unnecessary to explain the mystery of God, which I feel is an unsatisfactory answer to the question of how and why we are here.

I figure that Reynolds no longer cares about such metaphysical ramblings, because he needs to figure out a way to survive on a daily basis while holding true to an indiviualist ethic. It's exactly that ethic, in part, which drew me to the show, Firefly. Well, that and the jokes. And Inara's beauty.... Right!

In short, it appears to me Captain Reynolds accepts that God exists, somehow, and is true, but that Reynolds would prefer God not interfere in his life. Whereas cozen figures that God -- and all the other spiritual manifestations -- is (are) (a) mythical construct(s) of humans, and it's time we just accepted that and move on to creating a livable future. Ergo, God is untrue.

My question is: is serenity possible in any equation that doesn't factor in God?

I'm not well versed on the literary background of such, if any, themes this post might conjure, but, gorram it, I sure do hope for some meaningful pointers!

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Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:32 PM

URIAHONE

if you noticed, at the beginning of the first episode, he kissed a cross that he had on a necklace, the point was that after the rebels lost, he began to hate god, and to hate god you have to believe in god. it's actually quite common in people that dealt w/ a crushing defeat.

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Saturday, February 10, 2007 8:46 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:

Seems to me that after everything that Malcolm Reynolds has had happen to him, that he still believes in God. Or, from my perspective, in the concept of "God". It's just that Reynolds would rather not have God on or about the good ship Serenity.

My own opinion is that the character Malcolm Reynolds is missing an important point. That point being: God, Allah, Jehovah & etc. are constructs invented by people each and every time humans come up against the conceptual trickster that is Infinity.

I'm no mathematician, but it seems to me that "infinity" has trumped folks, ie., mathematicians and physicists, who, for instance, have attempted to solve mysteries of the universe via string theory and the creation of this universe that we ponder. It seems to me that theologians are inclined to utilise the concept of God in a manner that allows them to escape explaining the ultimate beginning of the universe and the ultimate expanse of the universe in a way that is grounded in common sense. By which I mean religious scholars invoke the spirit of God in such a way as to make it unnecessary to explain the mystery of God, which I feel is an unsatisfactory answer to the question of how and why we are here.

I figure that Reynolds no longer cares about such metaphysical ramblings, because he needs to figure out a way to survive on a daily basis while holding true to an indiviualist ethic. It's exactly that ethic, in part, which drew me to the show, Firefly. Well, that and the jokes. And Inara's beauty.... Right!

In short, it appears to me Captain Reynolds accepts that God exists, somehow, and is true, but that Reynolds would prefer God not interfere in his life. Whereas cozen figures that God -- and all the other spiritual manifestations -- is (are) (a) mythical construct(s) of humans, and it's time we just accepted that and move on to creating a livable future. Ergo, God is untrue.

My question is: is serenity possible in any equation that doesn't factor in God?

I'm not well versed on the literary background of such, if any, themes this post might conjure, but, gorram it, I sure do hope for some meaningful pointers!

Well, I'll leave infinity to those infinitely more qualified in that area. :) But, as for Mal, it's my estimation that, after the Battle of Serenity Valley, Mal simply could no longer afford to set himself up for a huge disappointment like that. It's not that he no longer believes in God. Nor that he hates Him, even. It's just, he felt the need to protect his own soul from investing hope in God. In essence, he decided never be under the expectation of deity ever again. I believe that's what he meant when he told Book the stuff about a long wait for a train don't come.

I think Mal, given the choice, actually would rather prefer that God DID interfere in his life. But he's no longer counting on Him -- and wearing that chosen absence of expectation as a protective shield, as it were. Mal expected the good guys to win. And they didn't. His early question, "God, whose colors is He flyin'?", was most telling in that regard. Because when you no longer know where God stands, you know you stand alone; and die alone.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, February 10, 2007 8:49 PM

REDLAVA

Uriahone made an excellent point, if you hate Him then you have to believe in Him. I think Mal still believes in God, he just isn't welcome on his boat. If both sides believe in a God, then God, in turn, has to make a choice in who to be with. One side wins the other side loses. One is saved one is forsaken. God can't be on everybody's side, just doesn't work that way. Mal believed that God was on his side, the side that he believed was right. He lost, more than the war, more than his innocence. He lost his faith in God to be with him when he needed him the most.

So to answer your question, yes I believe you can have serenity without God. Mal found his in his boat and is crew.

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:23 AM

RABBIT2

I suspect that Mal came from a rather backward colony where there was little diversity of belief.
When Mal volenteered to join up, all the people around him, especially the local priests, pastors (or whatever) were telling him that God was on their side and it was a morally just war.
His religious faith was probably what kept him going during the war but the defeat of the Independants (and possably the destruction of his home colony) caused him to question his belief system and everything else.
Deep down, I think he still believes in a God but is not willing to put his trust in any sort of orginised religion or anything else other than a few people around him.

--------------------------------------------------

Flight Instructor: Son, know what the first rule of flying is?
Me: Don`t crash?

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:25 AM

TDBROWN

My feeling is that Mal has become, essentially, a Deist. He believes in a Creator, but feels that God plays no Active part in his (Mal's) Universe. God has left us to our own devices (Free Will) and is basically an "Absentee Landlord". That's why faith in God is "A long wait for a train that don't come".

JMHO, and yes; I'm a Deist.

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:28 AM

ZOID

My disagreement to most folks' notion of God stems from their deeply held belief that God is there to make sure that their individual desires are met -- if they pray hard enough, live a pious enough life, give enough money to The Church, et cetera -- then God will provide all their wishes, like some sort of all-powerful genie. "Dear Lord, please bring me a plastic rocket, and a pony, and..."

I personally believe that God is not absent from the world; but, that 'His' plan and ours rarely if ever coincide. To say that God has got a longer view of what is good for us than we do, is overstating the obvious to my way of thinking.
(NB: God is neither male nor female, and both male and female. To assign a sex to God is to be ignorant of the all-encompassing nature of God. To illustrate: When we get to the afterlife, what use sexual organs? Or put another way, what Spouse is God planning on having sex with, so that God would have to create for 'Himself' sexual organs?)

As a consequence, when I pray (and I do, daily), I never ask for something for myself, but rather, for God's will to be done. For example: "Dear Lord, if it is Your will and in Your plan, please take away my son's fever and make him well", or "...help me find a way to provide for my family", or "...save our country from the weaknesses of foolish, short-sighted people." The important part is, "if it's Your will and in Your plan".

Some will invariably say, "It's not much of a prayer if you're just leaving it all up to God to decide what's good for you." I simply respond, "Thank you for making my point." They scratch their heads and walk away...

People get disappointed in God or stop believing in 'Him' altogether, because they are short-sighted and because they are so certain that they themselves are the center around which the Universe revolves. It's not just madness, it's self-love...Something a good deal more dangerous.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
...And in case the point was missed, I'm not leaving it up to God to decide what's good for me, personally; but, rather what's good for all of us, now and in future generations. 'I' am inconsequential, except as a willing and devoted participant in God's Plan, even if I personally suffer or succeed.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 9:17 AM

COZEN

I don't think that Malcolm Reynolds is given to an over-abundance of self love. To wit, "I'm a bad man". Also, there is no doubt in my mind that Reynolds believes that God exists, and I assume that's likely in standard patriarchial form (no room for "Him" on my boat). I consider Reynolds to have reached an understanding whereby he simply doesn't have the time to waste on pondering the journeys that simple folk are required to take to fulfill God's Path, which is anyway assumed as unknown to us mere humans.

Yikes! Does this make Reynolds an existentialist? (*cozen ponders if he has the will to find, not to mention re-read his Sartre, et. al. tomes... but he's sure they're around here, somewhere. Where's Camus when you really need him?!).

Seems to me that Reynolds has figured out that he decides what's best for himself and his crew on a daily basis. That's the extent of any planning. If such an existence occurs within God's plan, the good Cap'n can't be bothered with the analysis. Alternatively, maybe Reynolds has come to the conclusion that God is a creation of Man, and thus a fallacy, though, of course, that's my own bias creeping into the discourse and was not addressed in the fourteen television episodes and the Big Damn Movie.

My take on the concept of "serenity" in the SereniFly 'verse is that it is the centre that keeps Malcolm Reynolds sane, or, at the least, able to keep him flyin' from all the troubles he tends to make for himself. Perhaps Reynolds had to factor God out of his life's equation in order to find that centre.

***
What was I on about with the "infinity" in that post? I'm a maths cretin. Oh well. I could edit the post, but I choose to live with my humiliations, and plod along despite them.

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 9:35 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
...And in case the point was missed, I'm not leaving it up to God to decide what's good for me, personally; but, rather what's good for all of us, now and in future generations. 'I' am inconsequential, except as a willing and devoted participant in God's Plan, even if I personally suffer or succeed.

I've taken a lot of flak on this board for my religious faith, some of which hurt my feelings, some of which just amused me. But darned if I was able to express my faith as eloquently and as succinctly as the above. Well done!

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 9:50 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:
...and thus a fallacy...

In the philosophical sense or the vernacular sense?

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:48 PM

ZOID

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:
I don't think that Malcolm Reynolds is given to an over-abundance of self love. To wit, "I'm a bad man".

Okay, so maybe I wasn't clear enough when I said 'self-love'. I could have said 'self-interest' or 'self-absorption'. People are disappointed in God or choose not to believe in 'Him' because God steadfastly refuses to perform at our command. We say, "Make me rich, God" and he either ignores us or -- worse yet -- grants that wish to our ultimate ruin. (Be careful what you wish for.) Lastly, Mal says, "I'm a bad man", in reference to a wicked joke he's played on Simon, and he and the crew are laughing. Now he does tell Kaylee, in all seriousness, "I'm a mean old man." Well, he's clearly not old; but she immediately tells him, "You are a nice man, Captain. You always look after us. But you got to... you got to have faith in people." Kaylee knows a good heart when she sees one. As far as Firefly is concerned, if Kaylee pronounces you 'good', then you are good, and no mistakes about it. You might be able to fool her in other ways, but not about matters of the heart.
Quote:
...Also, there is no doubt in my mind that Reynolds believes that God exists, and I assume that's likely in standard patriarchial form (no room for "Him" on my boat).
Again, I clearly missed my goal of complete understanding in my last post. People insist on attributing to God a specific sexuality or stereotypical mindset. From God springs all things, including the feminine. Did God create Adam and Eve?

...But when I relate to God, I do so as a man. When a woman relates to God, she should be able to do so as one woman relating to another Woman, from whom everything Female originates. God is all things to all people. Don't get hung up on exterior trivialities like gender, race or socialization. If you do, you never find God, only false idols...

I suspect that Reynolds was raised devoutly Christian, of some variety, by a mama who insisted he get scrubbed and into his Sunday best, three times a week and twice on Sundays. And I reckon he got his penchant for prayer from his mom, too. But when God ultimately 'let him down' in the Battle of Serenity, he took it as a personal affront, instead of, "I'm not really sure why, but God didn't want us to win."

Their cause was just, so why did the Independents fail to win, with the help of God? Surely this must be proof that God doesn't exist, or if 'He' does, that 'He' doesn't care about us. 'He' is an "absentee landlord", as you put it.

I'll answer the question with a thought experiment: How long do you suppose the Jews lamented Roman dominion over their country, before Jesus was born? How long do you think those Jews who came to follow Him lamented His death, and wondered when their salvation from Rome was coming? And yet, within a few hundred years, Rome itself was entirely absorbed by Christianity, in accordance with God's will and 'His' plan. Like I said before, humans have such a short view of things. That's what I mean when I say 'self-absorbed': What's in it for me? Everyone sees themselves as the center of the Universe, the hero of the story. Well, guess what Sunshine, we're not. One hundred years from now, you, all your friends, and all your children will be nothing more than organic material, recycling back into the biosphere. We're each only a cell in the body of Humanity that stretches back into the dawn of our species and reaches forward to our collective end. Try not to be a cancer...

Quote:
I consider Reynolds to have reached an understanding whereby he simply doesn't have the time to waste on pondering the journeys that simple folk are required to take to fulfill God's Path, which is anyway assumed as unknown to us mere humans.
Dude... Nobody's got to go looking for The Plan, whether they're "simple folk" or the kings of nations. The Plan comes to us all, whether we like it or not. The only question is, will we be part of the Plan, or part of the Problem?
Quote:
...Seems to me that Reynolds has figured out that he decides what's best for himself and his crew on a daily basis. That's the extent of any planning. If such an existence occurs within God's plan, the good Cap'n can't be bothered with the analysis. Alternatively, maybe Reynolds has come to the conclusion that God is a creation of Man, and thus a fallacy, though, of course, that's my own bias creeping into the discourse and was not addressed in the fourteen television episodes and the Big Damn Movie.

My take on the concept of "serenity" in the SereniFly 'verse is that it is the centre that keeps Malcolm Reynolds sane, or, at the least, able to keep him flyin' from all the troubles he tends to make for himself. Perhaps Reynolds had to factor God out of his life's equation in order to find that centre.
So, you're saying that you've seen some evidence that Mal has found his serenity, his balance, his own personal salvation?! Are you talking about the same show I am? Mal is anything but serene, balanced or satisfied. The fact that he's named his ship after the 'verse's equivalent of the Battle of the Alamo doesn't mean that he's found his 'serenity', any more than the Texas mission was actually an alamo (a cottonwood tree).

Wow, you do take figurative things literally. "Subtle is the Lord." Maybe that's why you have a hard time understanding the concept of God...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
My screen name 'zoid' (with a lowercase 'z') is a suffix (commonly also '-zooid') that means, "An organic cell or organized body that has independent movement within a living organism." That's my concept of myself within the larger body of God's Creation. I am only a small part of that larger body, without which I cannot exist; but, I also serve to keep that larger body alive and healthy. ...The name also fits for my participation on this website. I'm not important, but I am -- like everyone else -- integral to its diversity and well-being, even especially when I differ from other 'cells'. Differentiation is fundamental in survival, growth and evolution...

P.P.S.
Bonus points to anyone who knows the source of the quote "Subtle is the Lord" without Googling, on the honor system.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Monday, February 12, 2007 3:54 AM

SUPERFLUOUS

My opinion is ‘not’ that he no longer believes in god. Nor does he even hate god. He despises the very word. My opinion about Mal is that, god for him now is like ashes in his mouth. A stale taste that leave you bitter and alone. The very concept of even hearing god makes his blood boil.

Before Serenity he likely had a life, had believed in life. Now that the war is over, life had no great meaning to him anymore. God is faith, and (in a since) faith is hope. Mal no longer has any hope, so he lost his faith in god. Something I suspect Book realized about Mal almost from the start.

If he denies God than maybe it wont hurt as much.

This is coming from an atheist point-of-view BTW, so I may be looking at this completely wrong. But from watching the show, Mal is a man of god. He just no longer has faith in it. He believes in nothing but making it through the next day…

__________________________________________________________________

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Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:40 PM

ZOID

Superfluous:

Don't know that I agree with every word you wrote -- I think Mal still believes and has hope in many important things -- but, for the most part I'd agree that he lost faith in "god", and that it is because he lost Hope, first.

It's interesting that you're an atheist. Joss is, too, from what I understand.

The point is, though -- as you noted -- that Mal is a man of God, not truly an atheist, per se. He's an apostate. It's an interesting juxtaposition, one of many in the show.

To Joss' great credit, he really draws the inside of a believer's braincase, without making them seem like a caricature in the process. I don't know that I could do so well with the mindset of an atheist. To me, it'd be totally foreign not to feel and see God all around me, and in deepest certainty at the very core of my being...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
My wife is a self-described 'agnostic'. She's not really sure what she believes about the concept of God. She definitely doesn't believe in churches. She definitely does believe in spirits and the afterlife. It's very entertaining when she tries to reconcile these conflicting beliefs...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:17 AM

COZEN

{preamble}

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
[ Kaylee ] tells him, "Your are a nice man, Captain."

Well, Kaylee prounounces the Cap'n good, River riffs on the Latin definition of "mal". So, he's both good and bad. A complex character (thus not long for FOX's preferred form of ADD television.. but that's been done to death around these parts). A character who is curious enough to venture apparently naive questions from me that warrants an extended, if gently mocking ("Dude", Sunshine", "... you do take figurative things literally") discourse about personal belief. Which, what I perceive as mockery, is water off of this duck's back, as I'm not given to venturing into anything that arouses my interest just because I've no idea or ability as to the how or why of it. Ideas and abilities can be enhanced through practice, which is all I'm doing here. Relax, I take no offense.

(Causal: "philosophical or vernacular sense?" Yer killin' me!

)

Quote:
People insist on attributing to God a specific sexuality or stereotypical mindset.

Quote:
Try not to be a cancer...

Uh, no, not me. I claimed no such thing. I merely mentioned that Malcolm Reynolds perceived God in such a manner. I'm agnostic lite, in the sense that I don't think that it's impossible to prove the existence of God, although it is true that I'm in that camp that understands any and all gods are inventions of people. Intuitively, that just makes more sense to me. So, given that I'm not convinced in the first place that there is a God, I don't attribute a gender to God, or that he/she/it is or was a landlord (scrolling... scrolling... ah! actually suggested by TDBrown), nor a form that I can comprehend in this lifetime. And I don't think that makes me a bad person, the moral value of which I measure by what I've done with my life and for my offspring. Also, in my tiny life, I have felt incredible levels of awe at the wonders of nature and cosmic incomprehesibiliy, as well as tragic griefs, all without a spiritual grounding. Does that necessarily suggest I'm a "cancer"? I think not. In short, I neither attribute to, nor blame God for my life's travails. {/preamble}

However, given that my meager windows of opportunity to surf this site these past few days have been trumped by traffic gridlocks to FFFn's beach, I've spent some of the resultant free time to ponder various explanations of "God", the most intriguing, to me, of which has been Konrad Zuse's supposition that the entire universe is being, "computed on a computer, possibly a cellular automaton" ( http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/digitalphysics.html). Which blows my wee mind, the possibility, however remote, that some construct or other, orbiting a starsystem somewhere, is inputting data and outputting instructions on a cosmic scale. Not that I accept that as a better explanation, but as an alternative worth thinking about.

As for the subset of the Jewish nation whose religion transmogrified into Christianity during Roman occupation: it's plausibly an alternative meme, later to become an effective tool of various Nation States, with powerful pshychological tools that offered a balm against oppression in the form of a promised heavenly afterlife? Which eventually became the Roman Catholic Church, and various other institutions of organized religions, which in turn became confusing and hideous tools of oppression? {An irrelevant aside: my personal respect for those who abide by the Jewish faith is that, at the very least, they, in particular, do not seek to convert others to their faith}. We're surely not going to get into the horrid consequences of organized religions, are we?

Quote:
The fact that he's named his ship after the 'verse's equivalent of the Battle of the Alamo doesn't mean that he's found his 'serenity', any more than the Texas mission was actually an alamo (a cottonwood tree).

Poor elucidation on my part. Poor conceptualization, even. I mean that in the "keep flyin" scene of Serenity, the series, suggests to me when Malcolm and his crew are in the "black", that's about the only time Mal can find some peace. A relatively safe -- although given the fact that Serenity, the spaceship, failed big time in OOG, maybe not so safe after all -- haven wherein Mal can feel far enough removed from his troubles so as to be able to relax. A time where he can relax, be at peace, be amongst his crew or, at a stretch, his family. Given that the ship and its crew are all he really has, is it too presumptuous to assume that Serenity is Malcolm's centre? The particular Firefly transport and it's particular crew that provides a purposeful meaning for him to carry on doing what it is he does? Because I have a hard time accepting that Serenity, the ship and the dictionary definition, do not have an integral function in providing a fundamental grounding to Malcolm's character. And I think that the concept of "serenity", the dictionary definition, has become a perhaps elusive refuge to him that is more important to Malcolm, who has clearly cast aside God, than his former brand of Christianity. (Note: I'm not debating whether or not this is a bad thing on Mal's part. I'm just wondering if Mal has or has not replaced the good ship Serenity, with all of its connotations, as a motivator or his refuge from his continuing to fight the good fight for daily survival in the Sereni-Fly 'verse).

benigncancercoz

P.S. If ever I would be inclined to embracing God as my spiritual centre, then zoid's path would be the one I'd try to follow. Even trumps my previous respect for Zen Buddhism. Also: thanks for not trying to overtly convert me, at which point I'm oughta here, folks! I do respect others' beliefs, honest! Heck, I may be wrong in mine, and I accept that, gracefully.

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