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Originally posted by JustDavid:
she got angry and called one of them a "ta ma de."

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Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
yes, very cool excpet she didn't really cuss anybody out...she said "Ta ma De (or) Duh" depending on your accent. but what she really said was.. " F*** me blind"

Tell her to say "Duh Ma" F*** you..or "do my" in engilsh pronounciation. next time she gets in a fight..ok.. Dong Ma?"

yes i know saying Dong ma is " you understand?"
and ta MA duh is f' ME blind keep in mind that the way you say it determines the actuall word. look for chineese translations on this site to learn about the 1,2,3,4 differnet ways to say one word..

Peace..

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Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
but what she really said was.. " F*** me blind"

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Originally posted by Haken:
I dunno. Even if no one else understands it, it's a "really bad" phrase for a 10 year old to say. Does she fully understands what it means?

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
If I catch my kid even thinking anything like that, we are going to go thru the 12 pack of Irish Spring before we are done.

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Originally posted by Haken:

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Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
but what she really said was.. " F*** me blind"

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Actually, doesn't it translate more closely to "F*** your mother."

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Originally posted by embers:
I feel compelled to hope that the teacher had a talk with the parents of the little bullies as well!

Seems to me that swearing in an imperfectly understood foreign language is hardly an offense at all, while pushing around younger children is very serious...
JMPO

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Originally posted by JustDavid:

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Originally posted by Haken:
I dunno. Even if no one else understands it, it's a "really bad" phrase for a 10 year old to say. Does she fully understands what it means?

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She's aware of the english translation, but I'm pretty sure she thinks of it as "extremely bad words" rather than the literal implication.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
If I catch my kid even thinking anything like that, we are going to go thru the 12 pack of Irish Spring before we are done.

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I fully support a parent's right to choose the methods they think are best for their child. In this case, I'm very satisfied with how I handled it.

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Originally posted by JustDavid:

Just for a little background, Leita is very intelligent (think Simon) and very emotional and caring about the people around her (think Kaylee). She never uses swear words, and is very big on following the rules. After this happened instead of thinking "will I get punished," her reaction was "what will dad's emotions be?" I would be completely amazed if something like this happened a second time.

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Originally posted by JustDavid:


Now, when I was first told what happened, if I had laughed and blurted out what I was thinking ("That's totally cool! What'd she say? Tell me all about it! Oh, I've got to tell my friends about this!") then I could see where I might be sending the wrong message.


"Light it."

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Originally posted by embers:
I feel compelled to hope that the teacher had a talk with the parents of the little bullies as well!

Seems to me that swearing in an imperfectly understood foreign language is hardly an offense at all, while pushing around younger children is very serious...
JMPO

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
just sayin'... Most 10 year olds, let alone girls, DON'T stand up for themselves. Gotta say, you're daughter was right to do so. And BTW you must be doing something right to have such a great girl.

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Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
well Duh ma ma is "f your mom"
again look at the tone in which you say
ba ba is generaly dad an ma ma is mom
Ta ma Duh is f me blind says every translation i found. or it sounds like you are saying "Do my my" plus the wierd throat thing your suppoed to do.

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Originally posted by Tomtba2004:

it is manderain chinese. you actually have to hear it to get it.

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Originally posted by Fangoo:
I'm sorry, new to here or not I think this is a terrible example and nothing to be proud of.

A 10 year old cussing is not a good thing. A 10 year old dealing with conflict regardless of why they were by cussing them out (in Chinese or not) isn't the way someone should be taught to deal with conflict. Life is filled with conflict often unwanted and learning to deal with it in a constructive manner is what seperates those people who are going to be successful in life. Yes I think that the actions and habits of children shape them and strongly influence who they become as adults.

A parent thinking it's cool their child knows Chinese cuss words and uses them probably should be watching less TV and spending more time with their kids in a more positive environment.

If this had been me and my child I would be doing some soul searching now where I had gone astray and how I might set a better example in the future.

I think Firefly was a great story arc and wonderful entertainment but I don't think it's a good example for my children to learn life lessons from.

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Originally posted by thefop:
Personally I think exchanging insults, and occasionally swearwords is a normal part of human life. I also think Fangoo needs to back down a bit here, let others raise their children as they see fit.


I admit, I'm a few years off from being in that age group, but as I recall most of us swore at some point or other> Kids do that. And no, I wasn't a "hanging out on the corner smoking cigarettes" kind of kid. But at that age it's natural for a kid to pick up some bad words and experiment with using them. The important thing isn't that the kid never learns to swear, it's how a parent reacts to it, how a parent teaches the child that it isn't appropriate in most circumstances to use that kind of language.

once the snow got so deep you almost couldn't hear margaret atwood

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Agree with you 110% there Fangoo... Every single word of it.

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Originally posted by Fangoo:
I'm sorry, new to here or not I think this is a terrible example and nothing to be proud of.

A 10 year old cussing is not a good thing. A 10 year old dealing with conflict regardless of why they were by cussing them out (in Chinese or not) isn't the way someone should be taught to deal with conflict. Life is filled with conflict often unwanted and learning to deal with it in a constructive manner is what seperates those people who are going to be successful in life. Yes I think that the actions and habits of children shape them and strongly influence who they become as adults.

A parent thinking it's cool their child knows Chinese cuss words and uses them probably should be watching less TV and spending more time with their kids in a more positive environment.

If this had been me and my child I would be doing some soul searching now where I had gone astray and how I might set a better example in the future.

I think Firefly was a great story arc and wonderful entertainment but I don't think it's a good example for my children to learn life lessons from.

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Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Originally posted by sasja:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Agree with you 110% there Fangoo... Every single word of it.

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Originally posted by Fangoo:
I'm sorry, new to here or not I think this is a terrible example and nothing to be proud of.

A 10 year old cussing is not a good thing. A 10 year old dealing with conflict regardless of why they were by cussing them out (in Chinese or not) isn't the way someone should be taught to deal with conflict. Life is filled with conflict often unwanted and learning to deal with it in a constructive manner is what seperates those people who are going to be successful in life. Yes I think that the actions and habits of children shape them and strongly influence who they become as adults.

A parent thinking it's cool their child knows Chinese cuss words and uses them probably should be watching less TV and spending more time with their kids in a more positive environment.

If this had been me and my child I would be doing some soul searching now where I had gone astray and how I might set a better example in the future.

I think Firefly was a great story arc and wonderful entertainment but I don't think it's a good example for my children to learn life lessons from.

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Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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I think this very up-tight stand on swear words is someting uniquely American, and something I never quite understood (maybe being a European?). Movies can get a higher rating for the word "fuck" than for having people's heads chopped off! I'm not in any doubt as to what I'd think would be more disturbing for my kid to watch.

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Originally posted by sasja:


While some things that are appropriate for adults aren't so for children, they're inappropriate for good reasons: alcohol and cigarettes (can cause damage at a crucial stage in a human's growth), sex (for obvious reasons) etc. Why would swearing fall in this category? It's not really harmful in any way I can see, and can be a very effective form of communication. Describe to yourself in general terms a situation where cursing would be appropriate - why couldn't a child find herself in such a situation? Hoping not to offend (too much ), could it be that you wish your children to be picture perfect little angels rather than growing persons, living their own - sometimes quite tough - lives?

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Originally posted by sasja:

Of course, too much swearing (for adults and children alike) will impair a person's ability to express herself and is frowned upon by society in general. Children need to learn the rules for swearing just like they need to learn a million other rules for interaction. If your child seems to have a problem in this respect, action needs to be taken. But it seems to me, from what we've heard, that Leita is quite on top of that.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

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Originally posted by sasja:

While some things that are appropriate for adults aren't so for children, they're inappropriate for good reasons: alcohol and cigarettes (can cause damage at a crucial stage in a human's growth), sex (for obvious reasons) etc. Why would swearing fall in this category? It's not really harmful in any way I can see, and can be a very effective form of communication. Describe to yourself in general terms a situation where cursing would be appropriate - why couldn't a child find herself in such a situation? Hoping not to offend (too much ), could it be that you wish your children to be picture perfect little angels rather than growing persons, living their own - sometimes quite tough - lives?

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No, people get to spend about 2/3 of their lives being adults. Kids should be kids (not necessarily perfect angels) - kids should have the time to grow up at their own pace and not have the world thrust upon them. Kids have it tough enough trying to understand everything else going on around them. Sooner or later, we all get to learn what the real world is about. If they get another couple of years of not having to think about or worry about the real world out there and get to play with their lego blocks a couple more years - fine.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
That's another couple of years that we can spend building a better foundation for a couple of better people - maybe a bit more ready for the real world.


Will you drag your pre-toddlers by the arms and get them to run before they are even ready to crawl? After all, regular people walk everyday - and there isn't harm in walking. How about eating solid food when their digestive system isn't ready for it? Everybody eats solid food, so what's the harm in that? They are developmentally ready for it.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Some things kids might not be physically ready for, other things they aren't mentally ready for, yet other things they aren't psychologically ready for. Learning the right basis and the right options can make a world of a difference.
Why should every kid have to thrash around trying to figure out the right answer in every situation? Yes, I agree, kids should learn on their own. Again, give them some boundaries and recipes to start from. Not only can they learn quicker and figure things out better.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

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Originally posted by sasja:

Of course, too much swearing (for adults and children alike) will impair a person's ability to express herself and is frowned upon by society in general. Children need to learn the rules for swearing just like they need to learn a million other rules for interaction. If your child seems to have a problem in this respect, action needs to be taken. But it seems to me, from what we've heard, that Leita is quite on top of that.

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Not sure what we are on top of... that she didn't have a way to express herself in that situation and ended up blurting out something she heard on TV without quite knowing what it is?

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Doing it in a language foreign to her tormentors is just more elegant and effective - not to mention cool

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Originally posted by Bourne:
FWIW(and hoping this post isn't redundant), "Ta ma de" is a fragment of an obscene phrase, much like saying "What the-" or "Son of a-". The uttered portion itself translates(literally) as "his/her mother's-"(in the possessive sense). I never got a straight answer from any of my Chinese friends as to what the unspoken portion was, but I think we can make a pretty good guess...mine: something decidedly anatomical. I base this on the fact that there's no shortage of similarly crude and personal anatomical references in Putonghua(mainland vernacular) that are considered unacceptable outside of the "nanzi han"(read: male-chauvinist-pig drinking buddies). But I did hear "Ta ma de" uttered in mixed company under circs of extreme frustration.

But then, my Chinese was never better than your average 4-year-old's, and now it's nearly all gone. Except for the dirty words, of course...

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Originally posted by sasja:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

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Originally posted by sasja:

While some things that are appropriate for adults aren't so for children, they're inappropriate for good reasons: alcohol and cigarettes (can cause damage at a crucial stage in a human's growth), sex (for obvious reasons) etc. Why would swearing fall in this category? It's not really harmful in any way I can see, and can be a very effective form of communication. Describe to yourself in general terms a situation where cursing would be appropriate - why couldn't a child find herself in such a situation? Hoping not to offend (too much ), could it be that you wish your children to be picture perfect little angels rather than growing persons, living their own - sometimes quite tough - lives?

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No, people get to spend about 2/3 of their lives being adults. Kids should be kids (not necessarily perfect angels) - kids should have the time to grow up at their own pace and not have the world thrust upon them. Kids have it tough enough trying to understand everything else going on around them. Sooner or later, we all get to learn what the real world is about. If they get another couple of years of not having to think about or worry about the real world out there and get to play with their lego blocks a couple more years - fine.

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I think this picture builds on the misconception that while children play with lego blocks their lives are full of bliss and they essentially have no worries. The real world is thrust upon them from day one, and rejection, hierarchy among playmates, bullying etc is everyday life even for pre school kids. Our job as parents is to help, support and guide them through these problems.

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Originally posted by sasja:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
That's another couple of years that we can spend building a better foundation for a couple of better people - maybe a bit more ready for the real world.


Will you drag your pre-toddlers by the arms and get them to run before they are even ready to crawl? After all, regular people walk everyday - and there isn't harm in walking. How about eating solid food when their digestive system isn't ready for it? Everybody eats solid food, so what's the harm in that? They are developmentally ready for it.

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Err, no, they're exactly not developmentally ready for it. And that's why I wouldn't do it.

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Originally posted by sasja:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Some things kids might not be physically ready for, other things they aren't mentally ready for, yet other things they aren't psychologically ready for. Learning the right basis and the right options can make a world of a difference.
Why should every kid have to thrash around trying to figure out the right answer in every situation? Yes, I agree, kids should learn on their own. Again, give them some boundaries and recipes to start from. Not only can they learn quicker and figure things out better.

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I perfectly agree. I don't see how this leads you to think that swearing is inappropriate for 10-years olds.

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Originally posted by sasja:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

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Originally posted by sasja:

Of course, too much swearing (for adults and children alike) will impair a person's ability to express herself and is frowned upon by society in general. Children need to learn the rules for swearing just like they need to learn a million other rules for interaction. If your child seems to have a problem in this respect, action needs to be taken. But it seems to me, from what we've heard, that Leita is quite on top of that.

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Not sure what we are on top of... that she didn't have a way to express herself in that situation and ended up blurting out something she heard on TV without quite knowing what it is?

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She did have a way of expressing herself. And (assuming the circumstances were such that they warranted a good cussin') an appropiate way. The fact that she usually never swears, but reserves it for special situations, like when she's bullied by a group of older children, tells me she has successfully grasped the social rules for cursing. A lot of children may resort to physical aggression in a situation like that. Strong language is there to provide another option. Doing it in a language foreign to her tormentors is just more elegant and effective - not to mention cool

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I agree that as parents, we need to guide and direct our children, I think any parent will agree w/ that fact.

I don't believe, or see any statement to inforce the belief, that JustDave encouraged his daughter to swear at another person, or that he told his daughter he thought it acceptable behavior. He did mention he found it interesting she knew the phrase, but I think it was more out of his attachment to Firefly than any sort of shortcoming on his part as a parent.

I am sure that JustDave is as good a parent as any on this board. One should be careful not to read too much out of so simple a post at that which started this thread. Being critical of assumed faults in someone else's parenting style is unworthy of the posters on this board.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:


I think that as parents we are obligated to do all we can to guide our children and mold them into responsible adults who will contribute to society. I screen what my children watch, what they do, etc, but unfortunately I (and any other parent) can not be by their child's side 24 hours a day. They see and hear things in school, on the bus, on TV, and from friends and family that we may are not able to filter. We have to trust and encourage our children to talk to us about everything, let them know we will listen and care. Without communication, no one can effectively parent.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Ghoulman,

something else I don't understand. People often congratulate each other as to "having a great kid".

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Originally posted by Ghoulman:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Ghoulman,

something else I don't understand. People often congratulate each other as to "having a great kid".

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You're still missreading me. The point of the sentence was that I felt the parent was doing something 'right'. The rest is all over the place sociologically and would take about 1000 words to begin *chuckle*. I think you're posting far faster than I so forgive me if I don't have answers or post with alacrity.

Obviously, I think it's just fine for kids to swear and cuss if it's appropriate (in another language just shows what a clever person this child is). I think this situation was appropriate. You might want to give your kids the 'turn the other cheek' lesson from Jesus but hey, look what happened to him.

Allegorically speaking...

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I think that some people are blowing this out of proportion.

1) She's 10!
2) She *is* exploring how to handle different situations.
3) The dad *did* make sure she knew it was wrong and *not* to do it again.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


So then, what the big deal? Life is a continual learning process and she *has* learned. Some will teach there kids one way, others other ways. It doesn't mean that any one method is wrong, just different. His method seems appropriate for that particular child and that does *not* mean it is for every child.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


For instance when my sister and I were growing up our parents would typically send me to my room from something for a little while, but, if my sister did the same thing she would be grounded for afew days or at least get into more trouble.

On first glance it would seem unfair to do this, but, I learned from my mistakes *alot* quicker than she did. So, when I did something stupid I need less of a... correction, as I just "got it", but, she needed more of a... motivation.

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Anything beyond this is just a comment on JustDavid's person. I think that the "WOO HOO" is questionable, but, IMHO that isn't the issue here. It how he is raising his child, and again, IMHO, I don't see any problem with it.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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you are correct... "Ta ma de" would be considered a fragment in the grammatical sense. But it's always uttered standalone - sometimes leaving you with a feeling that it does indeed is spoken with ellipses at the end and leading to something else, other times it just is.

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BTW, you seem to reference Putonghua and Mandarin as if there is a difference between them?

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Kids are the people of the future. Each person can either make a difference or be a drain.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
We can *all* learn, not just kids. Even good parents can learn to be even better parents. Not saying that anyone is doing it perfectly.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's like making spaghetti. There are couple of ways of ruining it - aside from that, there are no "wrong" ways. As long as it doesn't come out a pink mush, most people will probably agree it's alright - nothing spectacular, but ok.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Now, you and I might have found a few tid bits along the way to make it better. Why not share it? You might decide to use it next time, you might not... It's up to you. It's sort of like that.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I stated plainly that I don't agree with kids 10 years old of age swearing - other than that...

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
...if something can be improved or you know a tidbit, I expect you to point it out, nothing less.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's a community, I assumed that people come to be a part of one and not to go at it alone.

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Originally posted by Bourne:

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BTW, you seem to reference Putonghua and Mandarin as if there is a difference between them?

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Yup. In the likely event of someone reading this who knows more about Chinese languages than I do, I wanted to be precise. As I alluded to parenthetically, "Putonghua"(literally "common speech") refers to the common spoken vernacular of mainland China. It is Mandarin, but I don't know if the slang, colloquialisms, etc used in Taiwan and other places are exactly the same as in the PRC. That phrase is probably the same in Taiwan - they've only been separated for 50-odd years - but I don't know for sure.

Sorry everybody else, if this was a little too far OT.

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I have never heard anyone make that particular distinction between the two before. It's always been in reference to the same thing to me - as in used interchangebly. Of course, Chinese from China (reference to both Mainland and Taiwan) would use Putonghua for the spoken language and Zhongwen for general reference to the entire language (but probably more times the written portion) - Mandarin is the English reference to the same deal.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Kids are the people of the future. Each person can either make a difference or be a drain.

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To be nit picky, there are those that are neither.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
We can *all* learn, not just kids. Even good parents can learn to be even better parents. Not saying that anyone is doing it perfectly.

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True, everyone *should* learn throughout there entire life. And all do to one extent or another.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's like making spaghetti. There are couple of ways of ruining it - aside from that, there are no "wrong" ways. As long as it doesn't come out a pink mush, most people will probably agree it's alright - nothing spectacular, but ok.

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Well, with todays society I'd say there are a whole bunch of ways to mess it up.

But, to your "nothing spectacular, but ok" comment. I disagree. That is too much an area of opinion. I mean, how you define ok or spectacular would differ greatly fro

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Now, you and I might have found a few tid bits along the way to make it better. Why not share it? You might decide to use it next time, you might not... It's up to you. It's sort of like that.

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You seem to think that I meant you when I posted. I never meant this to be an attack on you. My post was more of a comment that there was too much opinion going back and forth and things were kind of getting away from the basic facts of this particular situation.

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If someone wanted to talk about parenting in general, IMHO, they should create a thread specifically for that.

I don't really like this spaghetti analogy. Too far off from what we are talking about. For me anyway.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I stated plainly that I don't agree with kids 10 years old of age swearing - other than that...

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True, they shouldn't, but, they will. And there isn't anything that any of us can do about it. We can only - when it happens - deal with it appropriately. Which, IMHO, was done here.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
...if something can be improved or you know a tidbit, I expect you to point it out, nothing less.

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And I you.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's a community, I assumed that people come to be a part of one and not to go at it alone.

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I don't disagree one bit.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
So you would eat pink mush offered as spaghetti?

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
don't understand where that grey area is.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
If you charge $25 for a plate of spaghetti and people are still buying it - I would believe that you have people agreeing what it is.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
No, not an attack. Since the reply was to me and the word "you" was used alot.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Cooking a meal and raising kids aren't that far off...

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
...otherwise you go hungry.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
...otherwise you go hungry.

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What does this refer to. One cannot remove themselves from society no matter how much they try. That is unless they go to some island or the middle of the Amazon.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Exactly, that's where my comments on how another parent raises their kids have possible eventual repercussions to the rest of society...

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
But an effective societal member - not just a nice or intelligent person to have around. Someone who adds value - we can all add value in our own way, but just not someone who clearly is a drain.

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