How long do you give Dollhouse, and what will Joss do after? by OPPYH

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

How long do you give Dollhouse, and what will Joss do after?

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:06
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5921
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Sunday, December 7, 2008 11:03 AM

Dollhouse looks to be a pretty fantastic show, and I can't wait to see it. I want more than anything for it to succeed, but I also want to be a realist about this. Joss Whedon makes brilliant shows. So brilliant in fact that they attract a rabid crowd that will stop at nothing to see "their" show survive. Unfortunately we are the minority. We get what he's trying to convey in a show. Cool concepts, great acting, and haunting story lines that make other shows look rather dull, and unimportant. We are 5-6 million strong, and we will never be able to compete with the 20 million people who watch Dancing with the Stars, or American Idol.

Fox is known for their cancel happy antics. Given Dollhouse will be in the Friday "death slot" we may not have long to enjoy a brilliant new show.
I already feel bad for Joss. It may last 13 episodes, but if there is a full second season, I'd be pleasantly surprised.

If Dollhouse fails, will Joss go back to his roots with Buffy, Angel, or even Firefly?

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Sunday, December 7, 2008 11:11 AM

CHRISISALL

It WILL succeed!!
It will itwillitwillitwill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The in-denial Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 7, 2008 2:26 PM

DEWRASTLER

You know what will help to keep it from failing? Stop talking about it failing or it being in the death slot. Let's talk about how great it will be and get other people to watch it.

As to your question, I think 5 years(on average) is a good amount of time for a show before it starts to get old.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Sunday, December 7, 2008 2:43 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
Stop talking about it failing or it being in the death slot. Let's talk about how great it will be and get other people to watch it.

Yep!

And write or email Fox when it airs to thank them for such a great show THAT ALL YOUR FRIENDS & FAMILY ARE SO ENTHUSIASTICALLY WATCHING!!!!

The pointed Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 7, 2008 3:50 PM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
You know what will help to keep it from failing? Stop talking about it failing or it being in the death slot. Let's talk about how great it will be and get other people to watch it.

Oh, I'll spread the good word just like I did with Firefly. Hope word of mouth actually helps this time.

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Sunday, December 7, 2008 4:05 PM

DEWRASTLER

If hope is all we have, then hope is what we'll work with. I'll be helping right there along side you.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Sunday, December 7, 2008 5:54 PM

PHYRELIGHT

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
You know what will help to keep it from failing? Stop talking about it failing or it being in the death slot. Let's talk about how great it will be and get other people to watch it.

I third that.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 12:38 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Fox and imagination - Hmmmmm! That just doesn't quite compute. This imaginative series, were it on Channel 7 or 4 might have a chance to go 5 or 6 seasons.

Fox relegated this new show to a night that, quite frankly, doesn't induce confidence. Well Fox's track record with these types of shows (see Realm, T:SCC, you know the drill) doesn't inspire or set the world on fire.

I suspect that no one here at this site wishes any ill will towards Joss and his fantastic new journey called Dollhouse. But remember we are dealing with Fox here and no one knows what their thinking is with regards towards sci-fi, especially inventive and imaginative sci-fi.
If it is a commercial success - such as in the case of Fringe - then you will see a change in strategy and a move to a better time slot to exploit that success.

If Dollhouse fails to gain any commercial clout - well then, banishment to the Hollywood dung heap. We know that Dollhouse will be something special, Joss does not make junk, but to continue in the land of the living we need more than our usual numbers (as Oppyh correctly noted). Here's to hope, we're gonna need it.

Tawabawho?

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Monday, December 8, 2008 2:38 AM

FLATTOP

I have been waiting, quite impatiently, for there to be a Friday Night worth watching.
I know that I am in a minority, even in our minority, in WANTING decent shows to air on Fridays. It's one of the two nights a week (the other being Saturday night) that I can stay up and watch TV. I'm generally in bed by 21:00 (up at 05:00 for work), so I miss all "Prime Time" television during the rest of the week.
I purchased the full season of T:SCC on iTunes to keep me up to date, but the thought of getting to watch it AND Dollhouse "live" sounds great to me.
*sigh* I know I'm not the target demographic, but I'll be doing my part to keep 'em on the air.

----------

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Monday, December 8, 2008 5:07 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
I suspect that no one here at this site wishes any ill will towards Joss and his fantastic new journey called Dollhouse. But remember we are dealing with Fox here and no one knows what their thinking is with regards towards sci-fi, especially inventive and imaginative sci-fi.

The only sci-fi/fantasy show that premiered on Fox Friday and thrived, was the X-Files. Although the first season didn't do great, Fox kept it going because there was a very strong "buzz" about it. They knew this, and it turned out to be one of their biggest series to date.

Hopefully the dozen or so episodes of Dollhouse light the television world on fire.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 5:23 AM

OPPYH

The idea to pair Dollhouse with TSCC is also a very odd choice. TSCC is always on the verge of cancellation, pulling in around 4-5 million viewers each week.
Sort of a double whammy for me, because I really like The Sarah Conner Chronicles. It will suck horribly if both shows get terminated.

If that happens I will absolutely, without a doubt be done with Fox forever. They could make a show that gives you free money if you watch, and I wouldn't tune in!

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Monday, December 8, 2008 5:40 AM

ZEEK

I don't expect Dollhouse to last very long at all. Half a season tops. The one thing I've heard that might help is the slow economy is making networks tighten their belts as well. Which means ordering way less pilot episodes of prospective serieses. That could help if Dollhouse does reasonably well. I just don't even predict reasonable success for a show like this. :-(

Then again I'm basing that on the preview clips that I've seen and back when Firefly was coming out the commercials Fox ran didn't represent Firefly well at all. So, maybe the show is very different than the impression I'm getting so far.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 6:46 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Joss has a history of getting stabbed in the back, so with this crappy recession I doubt he'll be able to get more than 2 seasons tops.

We all know the tragic tale of the fox-firefly abuses, but many people forget what happened to Joss regarding Angel season 5. The 100th episode of Angel occured in season 5 and the studeo wheeled out a cake. Horray! Things are great! Angel is an awesome show!

Except Joss's intuition went off at that moment and he knew he was going to loose the show. I recall reading an interview he gave later about it and how he knew the moment he saw the cake and balloons that he was going to get stabbed. He went home and started writting a wrap up for Angel even before he got a call: "Hey Joss, you're toast, write up a quick conclusion"

I expect Dollhouse to garner similar treatment, except around season 2. It'll be a show remembered like Dark Angel, a great idea that gets killed.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 6:59 AM

BLACKCATLADY

Ya know, starting threads like this really doesn't help at all. The negative vibe from fans are adding to the ugly internet rumours.

Way to go.....

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Monday, December 8, 2008 7:11 AM

DEWRASTLER

I think that the canceling of Firefly is causing people to blow things way out of proportion. Joss has had 3 TV shows. Buffy got 7 seasons, which is a lot. Angel had 5 seasons, which is pretty good for a show and it even had a perfect finale. And then Firefly got canceled. To quote Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks!, "2 out of 3 ain't bad."

There's no reason to worry. Shows take time to develop and while in production and go through many different incarnations, just like Dollhouse is. Just give it your support and hope for the best. It's a whole lot more productive than talking about it failing.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Monday, December 8, 2008 7:35 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I think that the canceling of Firefly is causing people to blow things way out of proportion. Joss has had 3 TV shows. Buffy got 7 seasons, which is a lot. Angel had 5 seasons, which is pretty good for a show and it even had a perfect finale. And then Firefly got canceled. To quote Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks!, "2 out of 3 ain't bad."

There's no reason to worry. Shows take time to develop and while in production and go through many different incarnations, just like Dollhouse is. Just give it your support and hope for the best. It's a whole lot more productive than talking about it failing.

The difference is Buffy and Angel weren't on network TV. So, they didn't need massive numbers to be considered a success. Dollhouse and Firefly were on Fox. They need a lot more viewers a lot quicker to validate them. I just don't see it happening. The way I always point that out the best is if it weren't a Joss show I'd scoff at what I've seen so far of Dollhouse.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 8:24 AM

SUASOR

What shows, if any, have thrived in the Friday 8 PM death slot (on network, not cable)?

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Monday, December 8, 2008 9:19 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Suasor:
What shows, if any, have thrived in the Friday 8 PM death slot (on network, not cable)?

Battlestar Galactica started it's season 1 on Friday nights, but then again, they were on the sci-fi channel. Being on Fox changes everything. Fox has no patience to await the time needed to realize the long term earnings of owning a Joss Whedon product. If they don't see good $$$ from the start, they will kill it. They have a track record of this kind of behavour.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 9:29 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackCatLady:
Ya know, starting threads like this really doesn't help at all. The negative vibe from fans are adding to the ugly internet rumours.

Way to go.....

I don't know about any ugly internet rumors. I started this thread to gauge how long people think Dollhouse will last. It's a legitimate question.
I never disliked anything from Joss. I do dislike Fox though, so we will see what happens won't we.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 9:47 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Fox has no patience to await the time needed to realize the long term earnings of owning a Joss Whedon product. If they don't see good $$$ from the start, they will kill it. They have a track record of this kind of behavour.

Whether we like it or not, this is good business. Especially with the way things are, now. Holding onto a show that is loosing money, on the off chance that maybe someday people will get into it, is not a very wise call. And if it turns out that indeed, no one outside a small core audience do end up watching, it's potentially devastating.

Personally, I think Joss should get away from network shows. Do some cable, my man. Fewer restrictions, more freedom, lower ratings expectations. Sure, the budgets would likely be lower, but Joss' strength has always been his characters and writing, not spectacle.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 8, 2008 10:05 AM

BLACKCATLADY

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlackCatLady:
Ya know, starting threads like this really doesn't help at all. The negative vibe from fans are adding to the ugly internet rumours.

Way to go.....

I don't know about any ugly internet rumors. I started this thread to gauge how long people think Dollhouse will last. It's a legitimate question.
I never disliked anything from Joss. I do dislike Fox though, so we will see what happens won't we.

Interesting that you started this thread when this article was posted today.

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?id=62579

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Monday, December 8, 2008 10:07 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Whether we like it or not, this is good business. Especially with the way things are, now. Holding onto a show that is loosing money, on the off chance that maybe someday people will get into it, is not a very wise call.

A valid statement. So long as the show isn't sabotaged from the jump, I'll be understanding if it reaches failure. The three cardnal sins comitted against Firefly were:

--Failure to sufficently advertise.
--Failure to give it a good timeslot.
--Failure to show the program in intented order.

So far, 1 of three is being repeated with Dollhouse. This isn't a good sign. Not good at all.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 10:22 AM

STORYMARK

I wouldn't even really agree with those 3 strikes. I saw a LOT of advertising for Firefly.

Not trying to make this personal, but it seems, be it Firefly, or something ele, when something fails, people start saying it wasn't advertised enough.

That, or in the case of Firefly, it's people who discovered it on DVD, who are convinced that it wasn't advertised, when the truth is, they probably just weren't paying attention, or the ads didn't connect with them.

I saw so many ads for Firefly that I can still play them in my head. Now, the quality of those ads can be debated. Useing a friggin Smash Mouth song in all the spots was NOT a good idea....

Even the "Bad time slot" argument is somewhat flawed. As it stands, Fox has, since it's inception, launched over a dozen Sci-Fi shows. Exactly one of them, ever, has been a hit. And it got there in the exact same timeslot Firefly had....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 8, 2008 10:46 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Maybe it had something to do with where you live? I never saw a single commercial, and I look for new shows, especially new scifi. When I looked at the dvd box for the first time I was, "huh? Did this even air or is it straight to dvd?"

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Monday, December 8, 2008 12:29 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Maybe it had something to do with where you live? I never saw a single commercial, and I look for new shows, especially new scifi. When I looked at the dvd box for the first time I was, "huh? Did this even air or is it straight to dvd?"

Not likely. Network advertising is rarely local. Almost always comes from the main studio feed.

And even if so, I doubt they would have thrown their marketing money away by pushing the show in the corner of podunk New Mexico.

If you didn't see any ads, you likely just weren't watching Fox (or a Fox-owned cable company). Or, like I said, you saw them, and they just didn't register for you.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 8, 2008 12:36 PM

GRAYFURY

I believe it will be cancelled by the end of the first commercial break...unless its the most amazing show ever ...then it will be cancelled before the start of the first commercial break.

"Smellin' alot of IF comin' offa' this plan!"

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Monday, December 8, 2008 12:54 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
If you didn't see any ads, you likely just weren't watching Fox (or a Fox-owned cable company). Or, like I said, you saw them, and they just didn't register for you.

Bingo - mystery solved - I never watched F

X

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Monday, December 8, 2008 1:10 PM

STORYMARK

Well, there you go. Other networks aren't gonna air ads for a Fox show.

Maybe this is the root of all the "they didn't advertise" talk. But really... if you don't watch a channel, how can anyone make any sort of claim as to what they did or did not advertise.....?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 8, 2008 1:51 PM

SUASOR

Fox has taken chances on more scifi shows than anyone else. Most of them failed to attract a competitive audience, but Fox keeps trying. Scifi seems to do better on cable, and maybe Joss would as well.

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Monday, December 8, 2008 2:53 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Suasor:
Fox has taken chances on more scifi shows than anyone else. Most of them failed to attract a competitive audience, but Fox keeps trying.

That is true, and something that tends to be forgotten. Sure, Fox cancelled Firefly, and that still stings. But without them, we never would have had it in the first place.

And though I never became as fond of any of their other shows as I did Firefly, I'm still glad to have seen Briscoe County, Brimstone, Space: Above and Beyond, Dark Angel, Strange Luck and probably a few more that I'm forgetting. Never would have seen any of them without Fox....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 8, 2008 2:59 PM

CHRISISALL

Without Firefly, Brisco & Dark Angel, life itself would be impossible.

So yeah, thanks to Fox for at least tryin' them.

The appreciative Chrisisall

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Monday, December 8, 2008 7:00 PM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackCatLady:
Interesting that you started this thread when this article was posted today.
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?id=62579

I started this thread on the 7th. The article is from the 8th. Yes, I can see into the future, and no I never in my life have visited that site. What's your angle?

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 5:39 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Okay, let's see where we're at:

Suasor

Fox has taken chances on more scifi shows than anyone else.

Storymark

And though I never became as fond of any of their other shows as I did Firefly, I'm still glad to have seen Briscoe County, Brimstone, Space: Above and Beyond, Dark Angel, Strange Luck and probably a few more that I'm forgetting. Never would have seen any of them without Fox....
_______________________________________________

Agreed. Fox has done the most, as far as Major Networks are concerned, for Sci-Fi and we must keep that in mind. Bottom line is advertisers salivate over the coveted 18-34s (as though no one over 34 spends money) and if these shows don't pull in those viewers, well they cancel them and replace them with shows that might.

I know that this is not big news but, bear in mind that Fox has tinkered with Firefly's story order and literally killed the goose that laid the golden egg. They produced the series DVD as a last ditch effort to make some money off the failed effort. And now, it seems, their tinkering with Dollhouse.

Okay, enough negativity on my part.

I agree also with the notion that Joss should seriously look into telling his stories on cable.
For all the reasons mentioned. I think it would be a better fit. I give you the Sopranos as an example. Do you think that that show would have lasted as long as it did on network TV?

BTW my fav shows from the above: Dark Angel, Briscoe County and Space: A&B. But Strange Luck?
Don't remember that one.

Tawabawho?

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 5:40 AM

SUASOR

Heh, the author of that article may have visited this site. Then again, the fate of Dollhouse has been a hot topic in certain circles.

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 6:55 AM

BYTEMITE

Now, Fox has been incredibly dumb in the past when it comes to series with good potential, I won't argue that. But I'm going to play the optimist here.

I think the people at Fox DO realize by now that they let go of cult classic with Firefly; you'd have to be completely lacking any brains at all not to. And I also know that feelings were hurt over the sudden cancellation.

The fact that Mutant Enemy is willing to work with Fox again is actually I think a very good sign. You don't work with someone who screwed you over once without some reassurance it's not about to happen again.

My understanding is that Joss himself chose to change the order of the episodes this time, rather than being forced to. And for that reason I'm taking that less so much as an omen, and more of a pointed hint.

I say this hesitantly, but I have some hopes that if Dollhouse does well, Firefly might come back. >_> Maybe I'm seeing something that's not there, but I will be watching Dollhouse religiously. <_<

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 8:40 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I say this hesitantly, but I have some hopes that if Dollhouse does well, Firefly might come back. >_> Maybe I'm seeing something that's not there, but I will be watching Dollhouse religiously. <_<

Where do you get your drugs from? That must be incredibly potent stuff.

I'm pretty sure Joss would have to become ruler of the universe and invent time travel to bring Firefly back at this point.

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 8:50 AM

STORYMARK

Yeah, I'm still clinging to a very, very faint hope of another movie somewhere down the line, but not the series.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 9:17 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

Where do you get your drugs from? That must be incredibly potent stuff.

I'm pretty sure Joss would have to become ruler of the universe and invent time travel to bring Firefly back at this point.

I picked my copy of the complete series up at Best Buy. And it most certainly is. ;)

Fox owns Firefly, Joss is working with Fox again... I dream big, might as well.

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 3:11 PM

SOMAHOLIDAY

Agreed. Plus, I was just reading an article about TV shows getting the ax, and there are a TON of shows being canceled on a bunch of different networks, including Fox. Doesn't it seem like now would be a perfect time to start showing an awesome, critically acclaimed show with an already established, gigantic fanbase... a show like, i dunno... Firefly. Do I actually think it will happen? Hell no. But that's not stopping me from hoping it will.

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Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:06 AM

WHOZIT

In the Shiny Universe link on this site, Joss said in an interview he wants Dollhouse on Friday night. Goast Wisperer is doing well there, so is NUMB3RS.

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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