GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

revolution firefly

POSTED BY: REDRIVER
UPDATED: Friday, December 19, 2008 20:54
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Thursday, December 11, 2008 2:05 PM

REDRIVER


just givin' yall heads up... there's a new FF MMO in the works over @ http://revolutionfirefly.webs.com/


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Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:50 PM

SIGMANUNKI


A fan made MMOG isn't a reasonable goal. At least, not if it is expected to look like what is currently out there, even if it doesn't play the same. The servers are going to cost dearly and that cost isn't recoverable. As in, if any money exchanges hands, regardless of profit, Fox will be all over it and that cost is more than enough to be out of reach.

We also have to keep in mind that MMOGs are in development by professional teams for years before they become playable. This would be a small group of non-professionals working in there free time.

Any fan made modern MMOG is just intractable.

I had an idea of how to make one that would be tractable, but... let's just say it's "old school" enough that I highly doubt people would play it.

That's really the problem. It's either the game is too ambitious, and/or the game has/gets too little support, and/or the game would be appreciated by too few. There always seems to be a catch of some kind.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, December 12, 2008 12:37 PM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY


Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
A fan made MMOG isn't a reasonable goal. At least, not if it is expected to look like what is currently out there, even if it doesn't play the same. The servers are going to cost dearly and that cost isn't recoverable. As in, if any money exchanges hands, regardless of profit, Fox will be all over it and that cost is more than enough to be out of reach.

We also have to keep in mind that MMOGs are in development by professional teams for years before they become playable. This would be a small group of non-professionals working in there free time.

Any fan made modern MMOG is just intractable.

I had an idea of how to make one that would be tractable, but... let's just say it's "old school" enough that I highly doubt people would play it.

That's really the problem. It's either the game is too ambitious, and/or the game has/gets too little support, and/or the game would be appreciated by too few. There always seems to be a catch of some kind.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"


This is the kind of additude that leads to the failure of independent games. Apathy will kill us.

We will try everything in our power to get this game made, and I promise you it will be done in a way that makes it as true to the firefly experience as can be done. I plan on doing the impossible, and with my team I am pretty damn sure I stand a chance.

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Friday, December 12, 2008 9:17 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

This is the kind of additude that leads to the failure of independent games. Apathy will kill us.



Actually, overly ambitious goals kills games before they are even started. And that's true even if the team doesn't know it. Regardless of whether a "company" is independent or not, the only ones that actually produce a product is those which know what resources they have, and just as importantly, don't have. Then after knowing that, they commit to project(s) within those limitations.

Single player games take a couple years to develop when it comes from a professional team. MMOGs take years longer because of the inherent higher level of complexity, plus the need to have a long and continuing story line.

So, that's what, say 4/5 years for a professional team to make a MMOG? Dozens of people full time as well? How many people you got? Working in there free time?

That's not apathy, it's reality.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

I plan on doing the impossible, and with my team I am pretty damn sure I stand a chance.



With the number of people that you have, I'd reassess your position. But, even if you get a fair number of people, you're going to have to consider how much time they will actually work on the project. Because, even if you get 50 people to work on it, if they can only produce about 1 hr every 2 weeks or so (each) on average, then they aren't really producing much.

But, I'll also point out (and this has been said by others numerous times as well), that this community has that "do the impossible" nonsense in there head way too much. Yah, it's a fun(ny) catch phrase from the series. Yah, it gives us the idea that we can do things that we didn't necessarily think that we could. But, when the numbers are run, and there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that what is being considered is possible, it's time to reassess the project. As in, every-thing/one has limits. Ignoring them is inviting failure.

In other words, it isn't about ambition, nor is it about having a cool idea. It's about the ability to do it, moreover, within a reasonable time frame. And a fan made modern MMOG just isn't in the cards.

Don't get me wrong. Your goal is admirable. But, the way in which you seem to be planning on doing it (the vision statement is quite telling) is like making Murphy a part of your team.

But, if you're going to make a go of this, and have a chance of completing something, you're going to have to make numerous sacrifices to your vision. Because, what you're planning is just way too big.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, December 12, 2008 10:12 PM

BYTEMITE


<_<

If this MMO is being made during free time, being made free for players, and doing so because of a passion about the source material, I'm not about to pass judgment on quality or probability. I'm sure it'll be fun working on it.

The mission statement is ambitious, but it's also something I've been wondering if anyone would ever attempt for a long time. That it's Firefly related is a bonus.

I wonder how it all will be implemented... PvP seems like it could be an important aspect, as players band into crews, compete to steal the same thing. And I imagine a lot of people will want to get ships. The ship could be like a guildhouse in other games, maybe. Then, apart from the planetside combat, how would the game handle random encounters while in transit on the ship like Reavers, NPC Alliance trouble, ship malfunctions, or even PVP boarding parties?

If somehow all that potential were in there, it would be very cool.

Of course, if it's heavy PvP, a permanent kill system could become frustrating, and I'd like to see some sort of way to revive people.

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Friday, December 12, 2008 10:55 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:


We will try everything in our power to get this game made, and I promise you it will be done in a way that makes it as true to the firefly experience as can be done. I plan on doing the impossible, and with my team I am pretty damn sure I stand a chance.


Not to worry...

Some folk , hereabouts , are regular party-poopers and pissers-upon-parades...

Don't be dissuaded from your vision just because someone else doesn't share in it .

Behold , even a turtle only makes progress when he sticks his neck out...

Myself , I'd be pleased even to see a fan-made machinima movie posted to youTube...


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Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:31 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:

Some folk , hereabouts , are regular part-poopers and pissers-upon-parades...



That implies that I don't have a point nor am I right. Neither of which are true. Because, I do have a point, and I am right. Maybe instead of knee-jerking to poo-poo-ing the person who is poo-poo-ing an idea, you should take a moment to consider the issues brought up.


Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:

Behold , even a turtle only makes progress when he sticks his neck out...

Myself , I'd be pleased even to see a fan-made machinima movie posted to youTube...



The problem with this is that no progress will be made when the project dies. I reference countless other projects that have lead to the exact same thing; nothing, no progress. So, although you might be pleased if even some movie got posted somewhere, it takes a completed project to get that movie posted.

Here, the project is so ambitious, it would be appropriate to compare what they are trying to do, with just some Joe/Jane trying to make a feature length film with Hollywood quality, in his/her free time, using his/her own money. Unfortunately, this is infeasible to do. Not even with a small group of them.

As I said prior, dialling the project back to something manageable would more than just make sense. It's necessary for the survival and completion of the project.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:21 PM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY


Sigma, I apreciate what your saying, but I am not about to scale down a project before any atempt has been made to create it the way it was intended. I am tired of games like WoW dominating the market, and games where there is no focus on real character development, just grinding for hours so you can select a new pre-defined skill. I am trying to change that. I am trying to shatter the mold. I may fail, I realize this, the game may never be made. Being afraid of failure though, that is what in reality causes no progress to be made. The tools and resources are available, so I say why the hell not.

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Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:04 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

just grinding for hours so you can select a new pre-defined skill



How exactly does sitting in a virtual room for a long while that will teach you some predefined skill shatter the mold, exactly? Oh wait, it doesn't. You're going to have a skill tree just like every other game out there. It's just that learning/using it is in a different way. That's not shattering anything. That's just evolving skills in a different direction. In fact, there is a game made by the US military that does a similar thing. So, let's not talk about doing something so very different when that is far from the case.

But, if you want progress, it is already being made. A few examples are Portal, Fl0w, Mirror's Edge, and Echochrome (actually JAPAN Studio has come out with several interesting games lately). In other words, although progress might not be at the pace that you would want, it is happening and is even being done by main stream publishers.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

The tools and resources are available, so I say why the hell not.



It is this that you do not understand. Though the basic tools are available, your resources are *far* from it. You do not have the man power to create this in a reasonable time frame. Your team does not have the skill set necessary to create a MMOG. You do not have the money to purchase the number of servers necessary for a MMOG. You cannot get that money from the community because Fox/Universal will sue you if you do.

You're going to have to realise that this vision of yours is out of line with what you're capable of doing; a modern MMOG is just unrealistic. You're going to have to find another way of doing it, at least, to tone it down. Otherwise, failure.

I don't know how else to explain it other than logic or by example. And I've done both. I've explained that you don't have most of the necessary skills/resources to do this. I've showed you that industry professionals that have millions to dump into such things take about 1/2 a decade to create these things. But, all I get from you is rhetoric.

If you want to live in your own pocket universe fine. Go ahead. Try and fail. But, please have enough respect for this community that you don't get there hopes up for something that isn't going to happen.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:09 PM

OUT2THEBLACK



" Someone take 'the perfesser' into the back and plug him into the hyperdrive..."

No , wait...He'd only fry it...

" Shut him up or SHUT HIM DOWN ! "

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:42 AM

BIGRICHARD


As much as I'd love to see this happen, because a Firefly MMORPG could be amazing, I have to agree with the others in saying that you're essentially guaranteed failure at the moment. Your 'eyes are bigger than your stomach' as they say. If you want to try, then try, but just don't get everyone's hopes up, especially your own, because you'll only be all the more disappointed when you fail. If you don't fail? That'll be because you made compromises. Or changes. Or a miracle has occurred. Or you and your team are 20 years older.

Congrats on the ideas and the pitch and the thoughts, but the only way you could get the game you want is if you pitch the idea to a game studio and they help you out, with backing from Fox and Universal.

Perhaps first, if you want to make a huge game, you could make a mod. A TC (Total Modification) for Half-Life 2 could possibly use a lot of your ideas. It may not be multiplayer, but it's more likely to succeed.
In fact, I'd love a Half-Life 2 mod of Firefly. Or any mod of Firefly that isn't for an RTS game.
(Oblivion? Grand Theft Auto? Far Cry 2? I'm not entirely sure which games are moddable or would suit it, coding wise, as I'm not particularly knowledgeable on that subject)

If you make a mod of Firefly, you're likely to give a lot of Browncoats an amazing thing, and you would feel much better about what you've done. It'll still take you ages, and it could be a great experience, and you're more likely to be able to find help, as more people are capable of modding than they are of coding for an MMORPG.

Anyway, the choice is yours, but if you decide to go with a MOD, or you decide to scale down your project, then message me and I'll be most happy to help with any story/dialogue/written side of the project or with any design (menus, posters, textures etc, or level design or whatever)


And now I shall be quiet.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 5:07 AM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY


There is no skill tree, perhaps you did not quite understand, fine. Also do not assume you know what we are and are not capable of. I am not going to sit here and argue with you anymore because it acomplishes nothing. I obviosly cannot convince you, and you are certainly not going to dissuade me from my vision. So lets leave it at that. You can say I am doomed to failure all you want, and in the end you may be right, you may get to say "I told you so" but if this game happens, well then I guess that would be the only way to convince you. As for anyone else, if you want to help or lend some support head over to our site, and join the forum.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 6:24 AM

REDRIVER


I think this community is big enough to provide this project with more help(extra hands) rather than just negative criticism and reality slaps. I'm sure the ever growin' dev team is well aware of the hurdles they might run into if they truelly commit to this...

it's 'bout time we as community take this MMO thin' seriously instead of hopin' some other company(cough "multi" cough "verse") will.
a good example what a stron' community is capable of is SWG emu project. those of ya who don't know what that is check out their website: swgemu.com
it's remarkable what can be done by ppl in just their free time out of love for somethin' they truelly care 'bout.
if it's a labour of love then nothin' will stop ya.. they've done the impossible and that makes 'em(swg community) mighty!

the future of MMOs is in our hands and not the corporate greed/meat heads that only care 'bout profit and screw their customers over and over ($0e)!

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:44 PM

BIGRICHARD


I agree, and if they do go ahead, I will definitely try to help out. It's just that I'm thinking less people in this community will be able to help if they're making an entire MMORPG. Making that is VERY different to making a Mod. Just as making that is a lot harder than making that SWGemu thing, as that was simply (I say simply, and I mean in relation to making a whole MMORPG, I by no means think it was at ALL easy) analyzing and replicating communication and simulation code.

I'm just saying, would you rather wait years and possibly get an MMORPG, or would you rather wait a while and get a Mod. Not to mention that if a MOD fails, you can always release bits and pieces from it, like menus, models and maps.

RevolutionFirefly I by no means want to tell you what to do or anything, I just want to make sure you've considered everything before you start. Once you begin, the best of luck goes out to you.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:04 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

There is no skill tree, perhaps you did not quite understand, fine.



So, then you don't need to take a basic medic course before you can proceed to the next level of training as you explicitly explained in your vision document, eh? Unlikely. You just think you don't have a tree because you're not doing skills like everybody else. Point of fact, if you need to complete something before you can move on, you have a tree. Deal with it.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

Also do not assume you know what we are and are not capable of. I am not going to sit here and argue with you anymore because it acomplishes nothing. I obviosly cannot convince you, and you are certainly not going to dissuade me from my vision. So lets leave it at that. You can say I am doomed to failure all you want, and in the end you may be right, you may get to say "I told you so" but if this game happens, well then I guess that would be the only way to convince you. As for anyone else, if you want to help or lend some support head over to our site, and join the forum.



I actually know what you're not capable of because I am familiar with the technology required to do it. I am familiar with the time it takes to build such things because I've done stuff like this before. Because, I am a professional programmer.

You on the other hand, aren't familiar with these things. You have an idea that you think you can do. And although I have no doubt that you can design what you want to do in your vision on paper, that is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is that visions practical implementation.

You're going to have to either ground yourself, or fail. There is no in-between. Because, this isn't the movies where the scrappy underdog with the great idea succeeds in the end. It's reality, where scrappy underdogs get squished unless they see the light.

So, you have a choice. You can either listen to me, someone with greater knowledge, skill and experience, or fail. Pick whichever one you want. Neither will bother me unless you continue to get this community's hopes up for something that hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:04 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@BigRichard:

If you want to help out a mod, there's one that has been going on for years now. On top of that, they are in need of the skills that you've listed. You can find there forums here:

http://s4.invisionfree.com/GunRunner/index.php?act=idx

If you need any motivation, they are nearing completion as well. Or at least that what they said a while back. So, please help if you can. It'd be nice to have at least one project completely for this community.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:05 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@RedRiver:

That project is 4 years old and has a number of legal protections that any FF/S project doesn't have. Not to mention that they actually have an active fan base that is willing to help with coding to finances.

Point of fact, what protects them is:

1) The clients license not restricting usage to just SOE's servers.

2) Reverse engineering being legal within the confines of a "clean room" environment (US laws, other countries are more sensible)

3) Lucas Arts not caring about it as long as they don't profit off it.

So, Sony can't touch them because they aren't actually using any of there copyrighted material. And Lucas Arts just doesn't care.

On the other hand, the FF/S community has over litigious Fox and Universal. Or has everyone forgot the t-shirt fiasco against 11thhour? And this project would be building everything from scratch. Not to mention that thinking that there will be lots of people on this project is incredibly naive given that every project like this has started and stopped shortly thereafter for reasons including failure of support by the community, lack of interest, etc.

Sorry, but reality doesn't match what you're saying RedRiver.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:13 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@BigRichard:

It's not really waiting years though. Waiting a couple years is what would have to be done for a mod. Those take a couple years. MMOGs take about 5 years for professionals with budgets to make. So, for non-professionals making one in ones free time would take... longer. Much longer.







As I've said, that is the reality of the situation. And, as I've said, I've thought about this at length and know of a way to do it. It just wouldn't be a modern MMOG. In fact, I doubt it'd be played. Which makes making it a high risk given the amount of time and energy I'd have to put into it. In other words, it's just not worth it.

But, there's the money aspect (i.e. just try to take money from someone without Fox/Universal getting there panties in a bunch) and the time aspect and the lack of support aspect, and the...

And I can cite examples for each. It's sad to think of it this way, but its the way it works. Deluding oneself away from that will only lead to bad things.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:21 PM

BIGRICHARD


Thanks SigmaNunki, I'll let them know that I'm willing to help.

And yeah, an MMORPG would take ages, by years I didn't really mean 2-3, i meant around 10+...

and if you don't mind me asking, what's your way of doing it? Just out of interest, or if you don't feel like making it public, PM me about it, as I'd love to know.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:25 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by BigRichard:

Thanks SigmaNunki, I'll let them know that I'm willing to help.

And yeah, an MMORPG would take ages, by years I didn't really mean 2-3, i meant around 10+...



Good good, to both


Quote:
Originally posted by BigRichard:

and if you don't mind me asking, what's your way of doing it? Just out of interest, or if you don't feel like making it public, PM me about it, as I'd love to know.



I've posted publicly about this elsewhere so I'm not not inclined to not post about it here. Hm, did I get the not's right? Bah.

Essentially, I looked at what causes modern MMOGs to be infeasible for "low income" fan projects. I came to the conclusion that the major reasons were a continuous environment (i.e. constant updates), high detail art work, and significant server resources.

So, to solve the above, I decided to take it to a discrete environment (e.g. Final Fantasy 1), which results in a lower requirement for art work and significantly reduces processing requirements for the server not to mention lower bandwidth requirements as well. Just one change and a lot of the difficulty and problems go away. I even came up with a way to get around massive server costs that didn't include donations or money exchanging hands. Though that still required community involvement. Which I've learned from experience isn't a good assumption.

But, unfortunately, that won't look shiny beside any game that has been made in the past decade or so, and won't play like them either. Hell, I even thought of tossing out the graphics entirely and just making an on-line ASCII game called ASCIIFly. Like anyone would play that, eh?

I also thought of how the game would run and I did come up with a development path. But, I'm not willing to talk about that one.

In other words, I reduced the client/server model to one that was feasible to do in a reasonable time frame and one that wasn't unreasonably difficult to do. Also, one that would be able to reasonably run on a "low end" server to make things able to be practically run. Still though, it's a lot of work, with a lot of support necessary from the community.

Since I came up with the above, I've thought of a couple ways that combat could be done, etc. But, none of that is really designed yet. Though part of the client/server stuff is written out. Though there will be a play between client/server stuff and how the game mechanics are done. So, not entirely finished, but the basic structure is in place for a practical, but "old school" version of a FF/S MMOG. And one that Fox/Universal could be ridiculed for shutting down if they did that.

"You thought THAT would compete with what you're doing!!!"

At any rate, like I said, lots of support would be necessary to get that project done. Even with its "low" requirements. And that's not something that I'm willing do without a good level of assurance that the community will be willing and able to provide support when needed.

Don't get me wrong. It's something that I'd like to do, and I'd probably have a lot of fun doing it. But, I've started projects before, and motivation gets thin after a while of no-one even commenting on progress updates. As in, I don't want to waste my time on something no-one is interested in.

I hope that answers your question.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, December 15, 2008 4:59 AM

BIGRICHARD


It all sounds fair enough.

Although it has to be said, if it's Firefly, and it's free, a lot of people will be interested. I mean, heaps of people still play the original FF games, original Zelda games, and people still play Runescape, so it's possible you'd get quite a lot of users.

I do understand though that it would be a lot of work and that you have no assurances that people would play that style of game in this day and age.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 10:53 AM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


I'm going to have to strongly agree with Sigma on all his points, and point out a few others.

First, for the record, I am a professional MMOG designer, and have been for about 6 years now. I've been in the MMOG industry professionally since 1995. I have worked at big corporate studios, and I have worked at small start up companies. I have done design work for some of the biggest licenses and companies in the industry, both as an employee and as a consultant. I have consulted for companies that were a long shot with very little money, some of which made it but most of which did not, and I have consulted on projects that had more money than god, including some that have been mentioned in this thread and on the Revolution Firefly site.

I typically do not tell anyone online about my career, because I am often mobbed by questions and requests, and I value my privacy. However, this whole Firefly MMOG idea has gone too far, so I feel I can't keep quiet anymore.

Sigma is right that this project is way beyond any realistic capabilities. Having no game industry experience, much less professional MMOG experience, is a recipe for failure. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single MMOG that had a team without any game industry professionals on it that went on to succeed, since Meridian 59 in 1996. Even experienced game developers often have trouble with the complexities of creating an MMOG.

But that is not my biggest concern with the continuing rash of fan-run Firefly MMOG projects. Every single one of these projects, no matter who you have on the team or what your past professional experience is, is doomed to fail. Fox and Universal will send their armies of lawyers after you as soon as you put anything resembling a game of any sort online. They have been arguing over the rights to the MMOG between the two of them for several years now, and they must defend their license rights, even against the smallest of threats. It doesn't matter if you think your project couldn't be any threat to a professional MMOG, and it doesn't matter if no money changes hands. Fox and Universal must defend their licenses, so that they can continue fighting each other for the rights. So if you ever managed to get anywhere with this project -- which would be an amazing feat unto itself -- Fox and Universal would shut you down just as you got ready to debut your hard work to the world.

I typically am not one to discourage anyone from pursuing work in the game industry, but there is a huge difference between using someone else's property illegally, and creating something out of your own mind and creativity. There are independent MMOGs that have succeeded, Puzzle Pirates being one of the best examples, but it takes experience, money, hard work, and your own creativity, not a license owned by a multinational corporation. If you want to make games, either start looking for a job in the game industry, or come up with your own original ideas, self-finance, self-publish, and realize that no matter how revolutionary your ideas are, they will not change the industry or topple giants like Blizzard or SOE.

Do yourself a favor, scrap this now. There are legal, viable paths to getting into game development, and this is not one of them.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Monday, December 15, 2008 1:51 PM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

There is no skill tree, perhaps you did not quite understand, fine.



Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, then you don't need to take a basic medic course before you can proceed to the next level of training as you explicitly explained in your vision document, eh? Unlikely. You just think you don't have a tree because you're not doing skills like everybody else. Point of fact, if you need to complete something before you can move on, you have a tree. Deal with it.


>>> This would be an example of people who hear, but do not listen. I am not sure what the literary equivilent would be, but I think you get my point. First, Never was it said that you where required to take any course in order to do the trade associated with a profession. Seeing as, all of these "skills" will involve direct player involement, if a player is able to figure out the in game system for a certain profession without taking classics, there will be nothing stopping them from self teaching. The classes are there as a guide. I made it very clear, that the classes are there to TEACH THE PLAYER, NOT THE CHARACTER.


Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I actually know what you're not capable of because I am familiar with the technology required to do it. I am familiar with the time it takes to build such things because I've done stuff like this before. Because, I am a professional programmer.


>>>> Do not assume you know any more information than what is presented to you. You cannot say you know we are not capable, because I have people on my team with the same(apparently better) qualifications as you.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You on the other hand, aren't familiar with these things. You have an idea that you think you can do. And although I have no doubt that you can design what you want to do in your vision on paper, that is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is that visions practical implementation.



>>>>> You are right, I am not familiar with these things, but people I have with me are.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You're going to have to either ground yourself, or fail. There is no in-between. Because, this isn't the movies where the scrappy underdog with the great idea succeeds in the end. It's reality, where scrappy underdogs get squished unless they see the light.

So, you have a choice. You can either listen to me, someone with greater knowledge, skill and experience, or fail. Pick whichever one you want. Neither will bother me unless you continue to get this community's hopes up for something that hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding.


>>>> Again, you seem to be adressing this project as an individual, when in fact our numbers grow by the day. I was not aware I was getting peoples hopes up, I make it pretty clear that this is a last ditch effort, if people choose to have faith and assist us, then I believe it can be done. Apparently others do aswell. You seem to like throwing around the word professional, fine. Just a little lesson, professional is term used to describe an occupation. Being a programmer may be your job, so you are a professional, but do not assume for one minute, that because you are being paid to do it that it means you have more knowledge than those who are not.




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Monday, December 15, 2008 3:19 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
You seem to like throwing around the word professional, fine. Just a little lesson, professional is term used to describe an occupation. Being a programmer may be your job, so you are a professional, but do not assume for one minute, that because you are being paid to do it that it means you have more knowledge than those who are not.
Actually, that's exactly what it means. MMOG design and development are not topics that are taught well anywhere yet, not in schools, books, or online. So it isn't a topic you can learn about without doing it professionally. And even then, nearly every profession in the world pays experienced practitioners more than those who are directly out of college/training, because prior experience is such an important asset to any team, no matter what industry or occupation. If experience didn’t equal greater knowledge, insight, and understanding, then recent college grads would be paid the same as those who had been in the industry for decades, and that simply isn’t the case, in the game industry or most other industries. Game design is known for being classically difficult to break into if you don’t have previous professional game design experience, and there’s a reason for that.

It’s a common fallacy among aspiring game developers to think that they know better than professional game developers. We call these people “armchair designers”, because it’s easy for you to sit in your comfy chair far removed from the actual work of development and point out all the things that the designers/developers are doing wrong, without understanding a single thing about the reason those choices were made. Most armchair designers never go beyond the point of complaining about existing design choices and boasting that they could do so much better than the highly-paid professionals. Those who do move beyond the armchair and actually try their hand at making games always come to the same conclusion: “Making games is hard.” The vast majority fail, and those few who do succeed realize quickly how idiotic they were to criticize the professionals.

This is far from the first time I’ve seen your exact same situation, and it won’t be the last I’m sure – probably not even the last one I’ll see this month. But for the sake of the health of the Browncoat community, could you please work towards your “making games is hard” epiphany without involving the Firefly license? Nothing but heartache will come from this, both for those involved in trying to make this game, and for all those who see your crazy plan and think it could actually come to pass. Browncoats deserve better than to be jerked around yet again.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Monday, December 15, 2008 4:50 PM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY


You know what, this is childish, on everyone involved in this arguement, myself more so for even trying to defend the goal in the first place. I did not want so many, non developers involved this early, but because I knew none, I had to make a few forum posts here and there asking for help. People responded, we got to talking, lead programmer was found, and design document well on the way. However, we have nothing yet to show that we have accomplished anything, and people coming into this post will see nothing but bickering. I dont want people to be introduced in this way.

Part of the problem is that I enjoy to argue, and part because I hate it when people tell me I cannot do something. I hate the narrow mindedness that so many people have, but what can I expect so early? I let myself get out of hand. I'm done here, it solves nothing, it is certainly not helping my goal any. Alot of talented people have taken interest and offered to help, more than I expected this soon, I was hoping to have the design document finished before people started getting interested, but well it happened faster than I had anticipated and I liked that. I dont want this to turn into a huge storm of drama though. I never even posted on this site because I knew what would happen, but the word is spreading.

I am not going to stop production, I am going to go as long as I can. Certain people learn the trade because they have a passing interest, some because they just fell into it, and some because they have a passion for it. We have passion. As I have said, I realize that we may fail, but you people make it sound as if it is a crime to try. It seems that with every increase in technology, and with every new generation of gaming, the basics just get reset. People stop trying things that are different. Here I am being told that independent developers never get anywhere, Halo was made by independent developers(team of around 10), microsoft baught the company and made alot of changes(for the worse in my opninion), the point being that it can be done. It will be hard, it will take alot of time and patience, but stop telling me it is impossible. CaliforniaKaylee, you call me an armchair developer, but your essentially doing the same thing to me, telling me that the idea is flawed and the plan is crazy without having all of the details.

I dont know, I have no personal grudges or complaints about any of you, if it ever came off that way I am sorry. I'm just so damned tired.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 6:48 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
I'm done here, it solves nothing, it is certainly not helping my goal any. Alot of talented people have taken interest and offered to help, more than I expected this soon, I was hoping to have the design document finished before people started getting interested, but well it happened faster than I had anticipated and I liked that.
This is something that a lot of first time developers run into when they announce their projects to the public too early. Professional MMOG developers know that it's best not to talk about it at all -- no webpage, no blog, no press releases, no one outside of the family of those involved being told what is being worked on -- until you have something to show, to avoid these sorts of second-guessing problems. A design doc is light years away from functioning gameplay, so until you have things actually implemented, it's all just talk.

Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
...but you people make it sound as if it is a crime to try.
IT IS A CRIME TO TRY. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. You are stealing someone else's work for your project. That is illegal no matter how you slice it, and eventually Fox and Universal will send their lawyers after you -- assuming you don't pitter out or go up in a flash of smoke like all the other many, many fan-run Firefly MMOG projects have.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
Here I am being told that independent developers never get anywhere, Halo was made by independent developers(team of around 10), microsoft baught the company and made alot of changes(for the worse in my opninion), the point being that it can be done.
And Portal was originally design as a final project by a handful of college students. But it took intervention from professional game companies to turn those projects into the blockbusters they ended up being. Neither is a valid example of independent game development.

That said, at no point did I say independent developers never get anywhere. What I said is that no MMOG team with zero experience has brought a game to any success since Meridian 59, over 12 years ago, and that was largely because when it came out in 1996, no one knew what a MMOG was yet. I have worked for a lot of independent studios, as well as several big corporate multinational companies, and I do think that the most innovation is going on at independent studios. But I also know that people who have worked 3 to 10 years at corporate game developers make the best independent developers, because they learned how to make games without having to learn how to run a company or market a product at the same time.

And I know how difficult it is for independent teams to get funding, even when they have multiple team members with 10+ years of experience. I was on a team once where every department head, every VP, the CEO, all the early team members had 6+ years of professional game experience, many with over 10 or 15 years, and every single one of them had worked on top-10 games, titles that anyone reading this thread would recognize and likely have played. We were considered a "strong team" by the investors we talked to, but they weren't tripping over themselves to give us money. We, just like everyone else, had to get to work and make a prototype before anyone would fund us. And that was the best case example -- I've worked with dozens of independent developers who didn't have nearly as strong a team, and who struggled to scrape together the $10 to $80 million it takes to make an MMOG. Being independent may allow you to be more innovative with the gameplay, but it certainly is not easy.

Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
CaliforniaKaylee, you call me an armchair developer, but your essentially doing the same thing to me, telling me that the idea is flawed and the plan is crazy without having all of the details.
I didn't comment on your design. I know that you do not have the licensed rights from either Fox or Universal to make this game, and on those grounds alone I know you will fail, one way or another. Either you'll fail to the common hurdles that trip up most first time developers, or you'll fail to Fox or Universal's lawyers. One way or another, this project will fail, and so I feel pursuing it is a great disservice to your fellow Browncoats.

Also, since I have six years of professional MMOG design experience and you have none, you can't really call me an armchair designer. I know what I'm talking about, while you are trying to buck a system you don't understand, and in the process committing a criminal act by stealing someone else's license. People typically pay me many thousands of dollars to give them my opinions about their MMOG ideas, but this opinion I'll give for free, since I care about this community and the community are the ones who will be hurt by this in the long run. You can take my opinion to heart or leave it, it's no skin off my nose either way. But I will continue to point out, here and on other Browncoat boards, the reasons why no fan-made Firefly MMOG can succeed, with the hope of tempering expectations in anyway I can.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:58 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by BigRichard:
It all sounds fair enough.

Although it has to be said, if it's Firefly, and it's free, a lot of people will be interested. I mean, heaps of people still play the original FF games, original Zelda games, and people still play Runescape, so it's possible you'd get quite a lot of users.

I do understand though that it would be a lot of work and that you have no assurances that people would play that style of game in this day and age.



It's a risk assessment. And you definitely have valid points. But, it's that last part that I'm afraid of. People playing it for a bit and finding it kitsch, but, not continuing to play it. So, years of work to "finish" something that very few people would play. Just can't get behind that.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:10 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

>>> This would be an example of people who hear, but do not listen. I am not sure what the literary equivilent would be, but I think you get my point. First, Never was it said that you where required to take any course in order to do the trade associated with a profession. Seeing as, all of these "skills" will involve direct player involement, if a player is able to figure out the in game system for a certain profession without taking classics, there will be nothing stopping them from self teaching. The classes are there as a guide. I made it very clear, that the classes are there to TEACH THE PLAYER, NOT THE CHARACTER.



NO. You said in your vision document that at the end of the training they get a med kit and go on there marry way able to do something. That is different from what you're saying now. Please, don't try to rewrite history when you've now changed your mind on how it will work. That or mis-written it in your vision document.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

>>>> Do not assume you know any more information than what is presented to you. You cannot say you know we are not capable, because I have people on my team with the same(apparently better) qualifications as you.



I have multiple pieces of paper and well over a decade of experience. You have ONE programmer (unless that changed since last time I looked) and from his picture he looks to still be in school if not just graduated. To borrow from above, I would say that his 'eyes are bigger than his stomach'.

Every programmer that I know, including myself, loves the idea of a challenge. BUT, you will find zero seasoned professionals attempt to seriously tackle a MMOG in there free time. Why? Because, we know better.

Now, I don't doubt that the kid knows how to program or is a nice guy. But, that is very different from experience. He will, like you, learn that this sort of thing is out of his league. Hopefully sooner rather than latter. I'd hate for him to waste too much time and energy attempting something so far out of reach. When instead, he could be doing something that would actually be productive. Because, a finished project is what studios are looking to see from potential employers. Not lessons learned from failed ones.

I've also shown you through example and logic, from many different angles, that this project is doomed. So, has CK. You not being able to see that doesn't stop what I (and CK) am/are saying from being true. So, you now, in fact, have two professionals telling you the same thing. I'm starting to wonder if you'll ever see the light.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

>>>>> You are right, I am not familiar with these things, but people I have with me are.



More than just arguably not. You may have people that think they are familiar with these things. But, they most definitely don't. Just thinking that it can be done is evidence enough for me to make that statement.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

>>>> Again, you seem to be adressing this project as an individual, when in fact our numbers grow by the day. I was not aware I was getting peoples hopes up, I make it pretty clear that this is a last ditch effort, if people choose to have faith and assist us, then I believe it can be done. Apparently others do aswell. You seem to like throwing around the word professional, fine. Just a little lesson, professional is term used to describe an occupation. Being a programmer may be your job, so you are a professional, but do not assume for one minute, that because you are being paid to do it that it means you have more knowledge than those who are not.



What CK said. Add CK's posts to the above as well while you're at it.

I'll also point out that, from the last time I've read your forums, you are only getting more people on the design/music/art/etc side. This is a moot point until the tech side gets something done. And given it's just one guy doing it (similarly if it were 1/2 a dozen or even more), you'll be in old age before anything really happens that will allow the project to go forward. IF that happens.

This project is just, not, practical.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

As I have said, I realize that we may fail, but you people make it sound as if it is a crime to try.



You're using someone else's IP without expressed, written permission. So, literally speaking, it IS a crime! But, since you probably just meant that is its "just trying" respect, you are missing our point. It's that, doing something that has a guaranteed outcome of failure is a waste of time and effort. Time and effort that could be used to do something that might actually produce something. But, instead of looking at reality and seeing your idea for what it is, you're just going along with this pie in the sky nonsense, wasting everyone's time with delusions of grandeur.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

Here I am being told that independent developers never get anywhere



No you're not. In fact, I gave a list of games that are from independent developers (that made it only with support from actual professional studios) - see also CK's response on this.

But, you are NOT an independent developer. You are a fan group and is attempting something that is well beyond them. There is a difference.

Btw, Halo was a single player game. Something that is infinitely less difficult than a MMOG. Don't expect to compare apples to oranges and have no-one point it out. They aren't the same. They aren't even in the same Universe.



Please take a queue from several people here and just stop and do something that you and your team will be able to accomplish. If you don't, you'll only disappoint yourself, your team and the community. And, no offence, it's that last one that I really care about.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:13 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


RevolutionFirefly, I wish you and your team the best of luck with your project. I hope it will work out as you plan.

I will head over to the site to check out the forum. I am no computer expert, but I will be happy to provide feedback and suggestions if they are wanted.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!



Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

Color Officer / Battalion O.I.C.



http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html


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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:58 AM

BYTEMITE


What if... What if the team starts to do such a good job, that people at Multiverse look their way and snap them up? Could be the project could become official, that's happened before, hasn't it? Then the whole stealing/ legal rights business wouldn't even have to come up.

I don't want to see dreams cut down. And the last thing I want anyone to protect me from is hope... *shrug* No offense, but I like hoping. It feels warm and fuzzy.

At the very most, the team will get a cease and desist order. I'd like to see them try still.

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:35 AM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


My understanding of the Multiverse situation, from dealings with people who have done work with Fox and Universal, is that this is a fight between Fox and Universal's lawyers which is far from over. The reason that the MV project hasn't gone anywhere isn't only because they're a software company with zero game experience, much less MMOG experience (sound familiar?) but because Fox had to put a freeze on development while they're in litigation with Universal. That's the rumor around town anyway. So I highly doubt that Multiverse could snap anyone up if they wanted to. Universal would be all over them with their lawyers, just as they were when Fox and Multiverse first announced their deal.

Cease and Desist is how it will start, but that's not necessarily the end of it. If they don't abide by the C&D, they can be sued, have all the game assets taken, etc. And any of those, even just a C&D leading to total shut down, will send the community through yet another emotional rollercoaster. There are certainly Browncoats like you who say that you won't ever stop hoping, but there are a lot of Browncoats who want to be more realistic about the situation, whether we're talking about another movie or an MMOG.

And just to clarify one of my earlier points: It's not a crime to try to make an MMOG, even as a hobbyist. It's very difficult and expensive, but it's not a crime -- as long as the ideas come from your own head. The more noble challenge, IMO, would be to design an original game that appeals to fans of Firefly, without encroaching on any of Fox or Universal's licenses or copyrights. There are professional game developers who started out as hobbyists and got their original projects noticed, and then moved into being able to design games full time. It's not easy, but people have done it, and nothing in game development is really easy anyway.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:58 PM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY


My understanding is that it is only illegal if the game is published after being made, or released, but the process of actually creating it is not. I have read into it alot as this was a concern of mine and others, however alot of the information provided is very "gray" no real black and white, so the plan was essentially to create the game and then worry about the legality of release and such. Similar to fan fiction, or people who write novels for themselves.

As for the originality aspect, well this is the part that really erks me, and something I need to explain. I have had an idea like this long before I knew of firefly, I never saw the show until after the movie came out, and I loved it so much I bought the series. Essentially the universe I wanted to create was already created, Joss had beat me to it. I am glad, due to his profession he was able to do it better than I ever could. Seeing firefly, was like watching my ideas materialize. So I am essentially incorporating the firefly universe into my original Idea, because of the similarity, and otherwise it would be a poor imitation, like cheap wine.

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:47 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

What if... What if the team starts to do such a good job, that people at Multiverse look their way and snap them up? Could be the project could become official, that's happened before, hasn't it? Then the whole stealing/ legal rights business wouldn't even have to come up.



Multiverse will want to use there own platform as they are doing for Buffy. Point of fact, there platform does not support free space travel, it only supports the whole walking around on "land" thing. So, no flying. So, not really FF/S. This may have played a role in the projects cancellation. So, it's more than just unlikely that Multiverse would "snap them up" if only for that reason.

I'll also point out that the cost of developing a MMOG is... significant (see a post by CK above). Multiverse is certainly not going to hand over all that to some group of fans that has zero experience. Nor would, I imagine, Fox or Universal allow that. They have just as much at stake for the MMOG not sucking as Multiverse does. No offence to the revolution FF people, but if you guys think that you'll get access to the franchise and the 10's of millions to develop the thing that would be needed, then you need your heads checked.


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I don't want to see dreams cut down. And the last thing I want anyone to protect me from is hope... *shrug* No offense, but I like hoping. It feels warm and fuzzy.

At the very most, the team will get a cease and desist order. I'd like to see them try still.


And how does it feel when those dreams are cut down? Why not, instead of believing in false hope, encourage them to pursue something that is actually viable? Hoping for hoping's sake is something that dooms one to constant disappointment.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:51 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

My understanding is that it is only illegal if the game is published after being made, or released, but the process of actually creating it is not. I have read into it alot as this was a concern of mine and others, however alot of the information provided is very "gray" no real black and white, so the plan was essentially to create the game and then worry about the legality of release and such. Similar to fan fiction, or people who write novels for themselves.



No, that's not how it works. Infringing on IP/copyright is absolute regardless of money being made, release, whatever. I made reference to Nintendo sending an unfinished Adventures of Link project a DMCA take down notice above. That is provable. Go check it out for yourself if you like.

Also, fan fic is illegal as well, period. It's just that there is a line in which the companies will tolerate, but no further. Fan fic is something that is historically tolerated, games, no so much. Probably because fan fic has no discernible value whereas games do (no offence to any fan fic writers, but if you think that it would be possible to sell fan fic...).

Point of fact, the license for making a FF/S MMOG has been given out. Any project will be pursued with prejudice. If you want an example, just look at the fact that after a t-shirt license was given out, 11thhour (and the bluesunshirts.com guy) got told if she didn't stop with her t-shirts, etc, she'd get sued. That is provable. Go ahead and check if you like. The story is in the archives here if you want. Here's a search:

http://fireflyfans.orthogonalspace.ca/


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

As for the originality aspect, well this is the part that really erks me, and something I need to explain. I have had an idea like this long before I knew of firefly, I never saw the show until after the movie came out, and I loved it so much I bought the series. Essentially the universe I wanted to create was already created, Joss had beat me to it. I am glad, due to his profession he was able to do it better than I ever could. Seeing firefly, was like watching my ideas materialize. So I am essentially incorporating the firefly universe into my original Idea, because of the similarity, and otherwise it would be a poor imitation, like cheap wine.



That may be true, but it does not change the legal situation that you'll be in if your pursue this project. And even if you change it to not be "Firefly" you still might be sued because of the similarity. Someone on the Multiverse forums mentioned that there is precedence for that sort of thing citing some laws (US I believe). And given how aggressive Fox/Universal's lawyers are being...

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:24 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, it wouldn't be Firefly without the random crises inserted into the space travel and crew interaction parts. And using an engine based on the Buffy-verse... I can't see how that would work. The combat style and pacing would be just wrong.

Well, but as to dreams, and being cut down. Someday, someone's going to make a FF/S game. There's too many fans for it to not be profitable, and the source material has the quality to allow it to attract plenty of newcomers. Heck, it's been years, and look how many people keep finding their way to this fandom.

I'm reasonably assured that even legal issues won't stop people from trying to make money for long. It's in the best interests of people and wallets to get those resolved.

And hey, you never know what can come of execs realizing there's still a lot of interest out there.

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:12 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Yeah, it wouldn't be Firefly without the random crises inserted into the space travel and crew interaction parts. And using an engine based on the Buffy-verse... I can't see how that would work. The combat style and pacing would be just wrong.



You'd be surprised just how different the same engine can behave in two different games. For instance, Ratchet and Clank and Resistance use the same engine. But, there pacing, look and feel, etc are quite different.

Though, I'm not sure just how Multiverse has set-up there platform. As in, if they cared about keeping it as general as possible (which seems to be there goal), then they wouldn't have made a full blown engine. More like a skeleton of one that could be taken in different directions. And from skimming things, there plug-in framework seems to support that notion. I could be wrong. But, here's hoping. There business model depends on that.


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I'm reasonably assured that even legal issues won't stop people from trying to make money for long. It's in the best interests of people and wallets to get those resolved.

And hey, you never know what can come of execs realizing there's still a lot of interest out there.



Well, legal issues will stop people from making money. If Fox/Universal doesn't allow it, there's nothing else that anyone can do about that. It is there property.

Hopefully, someone will come along and present them with something that they like and that same company will act as a go between between Fox and Universal to get things worked out. But, that is just wishful thinking. Most definitely a practical impossibility.

But, as CK has stated elsewhere, they will sit on a property until it becomes viable for grand profit. And that could be over 20 years from now. Who knows. So, I wouldn't hold my breath.

I know it sucks. But, this is the legal consequences of getting that movie. Lawyers, eh?


EDIT:
@RevolutionFirefly:

I'd like to point out that Hardcopi is lying to you on your forums. No-one on these forums, nor his own for his game, said his project was "impossible." What people (read: I) pointed out was that there was critical flaws in the framework that he was using. And here's the kicker, he acknowledged them! He just didn't think that the situation that would cause them (many users) would happen. So, he's ignoring them. Search the archives for that thread if you wish.

There is also the thing about him saying that he's been programming professionally since 1995. Well, that isn't terribly likely because of things that he was told about back then. Namely, refusing to use any kind of SCM, developing on the production server which caused regular breaking (while playing), using players as guinea pigs while they were playing (e.g. killing them to test some code), asking for help, accepting help, then not allowing people to help, etc, etc, etc. And then when people got mad at him when he did these things (who wouldn't get mad at there ship being destroyed or the site regularly breaking, or...), he didn't seem to understand why. Seasoned professionals don't do this, they don't behave like this, they don't develop like this.

Sorry, but I can't let people lie about there qualifications and history which would give credence to what they are saying and not point it out. But, even if that guy has been programming since 1995, my... fucking... god. With development practices like that, it's a wonder he has stayed employed.

EDIT:

Oh yah, another little tid bit. He didn't take it off-line for eight months because of being attacked. His server crashed and he couldn't find a backup. So, it stayed off-line. Proof:

http://verse.fivestarcomics.com/2008/10/found-my-backup.html
"""
News
Saturday, October 25, 2008
Found my backup...

Apparently I am not as big a dummy as I thought. I found full site backup I did with all the current stuff from the Verse game. I went ahead and put it back up. I am not sure if I will work on it anymore, but it is up and working.

...snip...
"""


Trustworthy fellow, eh?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 7:33 AM

HARDCOPY


I had a long post here. Forget it, this is not worth it.

Good luck on Revolution and ignore the attacks.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 4:54 PM

GREENFAERIE


Just a friendly reminder...

The Potato People are over THERE.

THEY'RE people with potatoes.

THEIR potatoes are yummy.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:10 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by Hardcopy:

Good luck on Revolution and ignore the attacks.



There's the rub though isn't it. No-one is attacking him. People are pointing out that this idea is flawed for a variety of reasons from it being impractical time wise to legal reasons. But, no-one is attacking.

I'm always in wonderment as to why people can't see the distinction between the idea they have had, and themselves. Between when flaws are pointed out v.s. attacking him/her or the idea. Yah, it sucks to have an idea shot down. But, ignoring problems with them can only lead to bad places. In, this case, the best case scenario is wasting a tonne of people's time and the worst case is getting sued. The outcomes on either end of that scale and everywhere in-between will also yet again hurt the community with false hopes. None of that is a good outcome. It would be insane to ignore that.

Ever wonder why the games industry is so successful putting out games? It's because people sit around and come up with ideas (brainstorming) and each idea either gets shot down or saved. Then they organise those ideas into something cohesive which invariably results in tossing out a lot of what was saved or continuing to save them for other games and/or sequels. Then that overall arch is fine tuned which will probably involve tossing out more ideas. But, all that is restricted by the resources they have at there disposal (e.g. man-power, expertise, money, time, etc).

No-one takes it personally. It's just part of the process of creating a game. In fact, it's part of the process of creating other creative things as well as the non-creative. But, it's all listened to and compromises are always made. It has to be this way as nothing would get done otherwise and each project would be a mess of ideas going in every direction.





Hardcopy, your project is reasonable time wise, but you still have the possibility of getting sued. There's also critical and fundamental flaws in the framework you're using, as I have pointed out prior (and, I should mention, I offered to help fix), but you've explicitly stated that you don't care and are willing to chance the risk. That's fine as your game will run merrily along, as long as not too many people are playing at the same time. But, if too many people do... problems. And you'll have to deal with that if/when it happens. Which, again, you said you're ok with.

But, the problem with this MMOG, which you seem to not see, is that the critical flaws are in every aspect, if not only in the various details of its implementation. Many of which are listed above.

Also, I'll point out what your answer to us pointing out flaws is: rhetoric. We come around and say, here's why this isn't practical and won't work. We give examples and cite law and even mention alternative solutions. But, you come out and instead of entering in a discussion of why we are wrong, perhaps point by point, you just basically say, "Ignore them. They are mean and wrong." Do you seriously expect that to hold water?

Seriously, if you're not willing to support anything that you say, then why say anything at all?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:12 PM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY


General response to SigmaNunki:

I do not feel attacked, I am annoyed that some people are unable to open their minds a bit. However I realize you have already made up your mind about what you feel is going to happen and that is fine. I think you are being pre-mature in shooting down the ideas so vehemently, however if that is what you want to do, by all means. I realize your concern for the community is one reason you are trying to convince me to scrap it, your motives may be admirable, but not your goal, atleast not from alot of people's stand point. That being said, I do apreciate the support from hardcopy regaurdless of his expertise. I also realize I may have to make sacrafices, but I will not make so many that I lose sight of what I want.

You see, despite all of the arguements you have made. I have had several people claiming to be professionals with similar qualifications as you contact me with questions, I am currently engaged in discussion with a few of them, one has offered to play a consultant type role for our lead programmer, although I have suspicions about this person's duality. At any rate alot of qualified people are coming to me and offering to help, and that outreach of people wanting to help makes me believe it can be done.

As I have said, I grow tired of debating this, and I really just wanted to let you know, I realize you where not attacking me personally, Earlier I let myself throw a few cheap shots about your qualifactions/expertise, and I apologize.

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Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:08 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Apology accepted and I do realise that, without reading the above again, that I should apologies for the forcefulness that I have shown. So, you have mine as well.

But, I'll point out, that this isn't about whether you can technically accomplish what you are trying to do. The base technology is there, as I have stated prior. The problem comes in the time frame. I don't think that you realise how slow things will move forward when working on a project like this. A good example is Vega Strike. That project was formed 2001, and they still aren't done. And they are "just" a single player game. I also have experienced this personally. I would urge you to go to sourceforge.net and type 'mmorpg' in the search. Then look at what stage of development they are in now v.s. when they registered the project. Please note, that usually the project has undergone some development before registering.

If you go ahead, then you are looking at 10+ years to get anything done. Not to mention that it will be a staggering accomplishment if the project is still running after a fraction of that time. As in, getting people to commit to giving up there free time to a project, having that commitment continuous and organising it all, is like trying to heard cats. Again, I know from personal experience.

But, all that assumes that the legal aspect has been taken care of. This just isn't the case as you have admitted. I'll also point out that projects like yours typically won't be hit with a C&D letter until you at least show progress. It just isn't cost effective to spend thousands (more actually... much more) going after every project that will most likely die out on its own. That isn't to be offensive, that's just the way these things tend to work.

So, if you show progress, then you will be hit with a C&D letter. This isn't even questionable as you are encroaching on a license that has been given out and as such, will be competing with that license... illegally.

I understand that a lot of people aren't going to see what CK, myself, and others are saying. But, that isn't because we are wrong. It's because they are so desperate to see a project, any project, under way, that they are blinded by that. They think that this can and will be done. But, that is only a half-truth, not the reality of the situation.

If you want to take the risk, then that is your choice. If people want to donate there time to help you, then that is there choice. But, with that license given out, this project will end one way or another.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, December 19, 2008 2:15 PM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY


Do you happen to know who would have final say in a legal dispute, would it be Fox, Universal, Multiverse, would Joss even be involved? I have read that the original copy right holder would have jurisdiction, so would that be joss? or the people who own the rights, specifically to the game?

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Friday, December 19, 2008 4:11 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


I have two words for you. Flash Games. The newest line of casual gaming on the net. You've all played them at one time I'm sure. Something to while away the time during a coffee break (or when your really bored at work) No huge project that needs a large team of developers, no huge amounts of money, and if you have the warewithal for programming you can put something out in only months (there have been contests for new gamers out there to develop a new game where the time frame was a matter of weeks).

And with Flash Games there are so many genre's, to Escape the Room games (my personal favorite, though they can be frustrating) to Shooter games (imagine a different Firefly class ship that's ARMED and needing to escape a harrowing situation) Puzzle Games (the subjects name is River Tam, we're testing her memory) Fighting Games, Tower Defense games...... my GOD the choices are endless. And it would be a one shot thing (that is to say one game one mission, not like a mmog) that it can be set up and made much easier (especially if it's replayable). Imagine a game where you have to fix Serenity and you have to go room by room getting clues and objects to help you with your goal (that's in the vein of Escape the Room games) Course knowing the legal ramifications maybe base it on another ship, hell even another class of design.

My point is if ANY of us are ever going to play any game relating to the Verse that doesn't involve all the mess that a mmog brings up this would be it. Keeping the legality in mind the safest bet would be to create your own characters and story but keep it in the Verse. Like they're doing for the fan films "Into the Black" and "Bellflower". I don't know what goes into the making of a mmog, but from what I've read it's too huge an undertaking. But Flash Games, that's doable. So if this doesn't work, don't fret, don't get down, don't feel beaten, instead focus that energy into this alternative. I know I'D play a Firefly Flash Game. Hell it'd occupy my time (as these games tend to do) I'd like to know your thoughts on this.

This, btw, is my most favorite site for Casual Gaming. While your there try a few of the games, they have something for everyone. I recommend the game Bloons (I dare you to play that game without smiling, and conversly tearing your hair out).

http://jayisgames.com/



{{{*~A footer is the closing of an article, not a kinky sex move~*}}}

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Friday, December 19, 2008 5:05 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

Do you happen to know who would have final say in a legal dispute, would it be Fox, Universal, Multiverse, would Joss even be involved? I have read that the original copy right holder would have jurisdiction, so would that be joss? or the people who own the rights, specifically to the game?



Fox currently owns the IP. Basically, what happens is that a creator, e.g. Joss, has an idea, he sells that idea to a studio if only in the form of employment and development of said idea. So, Fox is the one to talk to. That being said, Universal also holds certain rights as well. Which is why these waters are so very muddied. So, you'll have to strike a deal with them as well. As CK has stated above, legal arguments between the two is the likely reason why the official MMOG got put on hiatus. It's also the reason why any project that might compete with there MMOG stands more than just a chance of getting killed.

Multiverse and Joss have zero say in these matters. Unfortunately, right now, the courts are that ones that will most likely have the final say in this matter.

I'll also point out that I did try to get Fox's contact info out of Multiverse a little while ago. This was the response:

http://update.multiverse.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5340&start=0&theme=
multiverse&sid=f4fa9f2d760157228f4bf2b28fa97045
"""
...snip...

Unfortunately, I am not in a position to provide contact info for anyone at Fox.

...snip...
"""

I also tried to look for the contact information on-line and had very little luck. It seems as though you have to be an insider to know these things. So, if that contact information is out there, it's not exactly easy to find.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, December 19, 2008 6:39 PM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY



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Friday, December 19, 2008 7:11 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


I agree with Sigma, the rights belong to Universal and Fox, not Multiverse (who licensed out the rights to make a *Firefly*, not Serenity, MMO from Fox, but that is now in dispute from what I've heard), and not Joss unfortunately. Joss doesn't even have right of first refusal on this, as he likely has on any additional sequels in film or comic books, and which he has said specifically, I believe, he has when it comes to novels. But he would have had to negotiate for those rights with Fox originally, when he pitched the idea for the show to them, and likely again with Universal when they bought the rights from Fox. (This is why Joss was never even consulted on the Multiverse project.)

What it sounds like to me from the small bits I've picked up is that there's a dispute between Fox's laywers and Universal's lawyers as to which of the two of them actually have the rights to make an MMOG based on the property -- did Fox retain that right as an extension of the show when they sold the movie rights to Universal, or does Universal have the rights because they did the movie? I haven't heard anything in awhile, but I also haven't seen any announcements publically from anyone, so my guess is that this is an extremely muddy area between the two of them. And because of that, they're that much more likely to be very aggressive when it comes to defending their licenses against fan projects. If it even appears to a judge or mediator that they haven't adequately defended their license, they could lose the MMOG rights entirely.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:05 PM

REVOLUTIONFIREFLY


Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
I agree with Sigma, the rights belong to Universal and Fox, not Multiverse (who licensed out the rights to make a *Firefly*, not Serenity, MMO from Fox, but that is now in dispute from what I've heard), and not Joss unfortunately. Joss doesn't even have right of first refusal on this, as he likely has on any additional sequels in film or comic books, and which he has said specifically, I believe, he has when it comes to novels. But he would have had to negotiate for those rights with Fox originally, when he pitched the idea for the show to them, and likely again with Universal when they bought the rights from Fox. (This is why Joss was never even consulted on the Multiverse project.)

What it sounds like to me from the small bits I've picked up is that there's a dispute between Fox's laywers and Universal's lawyers as to which of the two of them actually have the rights to make an MMOG based on the property -- did Fox retain that right as an extension of the show when they sold the movie rights to Universal, or does Universal have the rights because they did the movie? I haven't heard anything in awhile, but I also haven't seen any announcements publically from anyone, so my guess is that this is an extremely muddy area between the two of them. And because of that, they're that much more likely to be very aggressive when it comes to defending their licenses against fan projects. If it even appears to a judge or mediator that they haven't adequately defended their license, they could lose the MMOG rights entirely.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...


Interesting, Thank you, I would like to apologize to you aswell again, because I took everything the wrong way, when you where actually trying to help.

As for the legal conundrum, if they do not know who has the rights to the license then who would be taking legal action against a fan project? Further more what would happen if they did lose thier right to make the MMOG, where would that place Multiverse?

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Friday, December 19, 2008 8:54 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

As for the legal conundrum, if they do not know who has the rights to the license then who would be taking legal action against a fan project?



Either of them, both of them. Hell, Multiverse may even been able to as they could make a claim that they are defending a license that they have obtained. But, when it comes to the IP itself, both Fox and Universal have some claim to the FF/S 'Verse. So, either/both of them could legitimately send a C&D letter. The veracity of that letter might go away at some point in the future depending on how things work out legally between the two though. But, that's how it would likely be today. Any way you look at it, they both have some claim to the 'Verse in general. It's just a question as to how far that claim goes. Something in which is TBA.


Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:

Further more what would happen if they did lose thier right to make the MMOG, where would that place Multiverse?



Interesting question. Pure conjecture, but I imagine the license would become invalid; it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on as it wasn't legitimately given in the first place. However, it would also likely mean that there isn't anyone to gain permission from to make the game. So, they could probably just make it. That being said, there would likely be some sort of compensation necessary as it still isn't Multiverse's IP. Maybe something like royalties in the music industry. But, again, that's speculation. I imagine CK would be better able to answer that question.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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