Why not now fight for a animated firefly show? by Ads

To be fair, I think that short is intended to be parody, and not a serious translation of the Watchmen.

...Point taken, however.

I'm pretty sure browncoats wouldn't allow our firefly cartoon to be like that, though.

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 5:32 PM

SCHISM

A parody, yes, but it's not far off from what they did to many a reputable comic-based property in the early 90's.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
----------------------------
From this;

To this;

WildCATS
--------
From this;

To this;

X-Men
-----
From this;

To this;

And for good measure, read this;
http://www.cracked.com/article_15287_10-most-disastrous-saturday-morni
ng-cartoon-adaptations.html

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 5:52 PM

Well that's part of the problem! You're thinking of saturday morning cartoons. Those are marketed for kids.

We're talking a prime-time cartoon on either the internet or some channel like HBO or something.

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 7:35 PM

GB has an animated sci-fi quadrilogy of feature films coming out soon called 'Strange Frame. The quality of animation is very good and is also serious. It is much better than what any of the fans will ever be able to make. The story also is for adults and it is as far from mainstream as you can get.

This is GB's response to some of the concerns from here that I have mailed to him,

Quote:
"I can assure you that if I'm involved it won't be made for kids or made to fit into mainstream consumption. After all, strange frame is an animated sci-fi musical starring two lesbians of color. Strange Frame has drugs, sex and a little smattering of violence. What can be further from the mainstream than that?"

He is also very sure that Firefly animation would take off with adequite fan support and he wouldn't do it without Joss's support either(also his own words).

He knows the expenses required to make live action and the comparitive costs(which are much less) of making the show animated.

He says that a slot on sci fi at a suitable time made with animation would need a fraction of the fans that would be required to make live action happen.

He also told me that most of Fireflys cast has done voice work before and he is also confident that getting at least most of the actors on board is possible.

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 8:18 PM

Yes Thank you! I'm glad someone finally mentioned HBO. An hour long animated show fitting the criteria set up by Ash, though a more mature and gritty animation style, and a seamless blend of animation and cgi (think appleseed, the blend not the animation style). I see it lorded over (and often written) by Joss to maintain its integrity voiced by the actors, and aired on either HBO or Showtime. 12 episode seasons and they can take up to a year. The truth is the franchise has been crippled. Animation can serve a couple of purposes:

1. Extend the franchise for a few years till the time is better suited for the show to return in some form as we know it. Or at least for a movie.

2. Spark a new live action treatment in the future with a different cast and a revamped story that if done right could potentially be better than its current iteration.

3. Vindicate us Browncoats who have believed from the start.

4. Create a new generation of Browncoats that can see the franchise through their goggles and not just ours.

My only problem with a future re imagining is that a lot of what we are as Browncoats has to do with our scifi outcast status. We all quite literally united into this brilliant subculture not when the show was created but when it was canceled. As fans we literally experienced our own Battle of Serenity valley, and I don't know if a future generation could ever feel the way we do if they grow up in a situation where Firefly was always the in thing. Kind of like the Trekkies and now the BSG fans. Their spirit began with the original canceled show but the newer fans (TNG and on) are almost a different species. They are more mainstream, less fanatical, almost more savvy, and not nearly as unified. I mean look at them, they outnumber us by orders of magnitude, but we trounce them every time we cross them as fans. They have never known a Star Trek with its back against the wall. So they haven't bonded in the foxhole. Where as I was in Tucson Arizona a few months back and didn't have a place to stay because I couldn't pay, my wallet had been stolen. I was going to sleep in my car, but when in conversation I let slip that I was a Browncoat this kind lady living on her own offered me her couch for the night. A total stranger. I could have been some psycho rapist killer, but all she needed to know about me was that I'm a Browncoat, and that makes me family, or a veteran of the same battle. I of course thanked her and warned her sternly the next morning never to do that again, it's just not safe, and I certainly hope all Browncoats are not that naive. But I am eternally grateful to her for making the right call there.

Anyway I would prefer a future with some iteration of Firefly as a going concern, rather than a future with Firefly as a quaint and curious memory.

"Am I talking to Miranda now?"

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 8:25 PM

@ADS

That's really great! I'm behind it 100%.

I wonder why Joss doesn't coordinate graphic novels and paperback novels like Star wars and Star Trek do. Their publishing activities are worth a few hundred million, and helped the material reach a niche audience that is a large geek (no offense) sympathetic group but isn't necessarily up on tv and movies. These people then peer and spread at the very least out of curiosity for the other media. We do a lot to keep this franchise alive but it seems to me that there is a lot that Joss et al can do to keep it a going concern and squeeze revenue out of in order to fund other projects. Expand this core of rabid fans and lay the groundwork for the 'verse at least if not the crew of serenity.

"Am I talking to Miranda now?"

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 11:16 PM

You make great points Fiddler and you should deffinatly come onto Facbook if you can to join the fight there also. I thought I would add one more point to your posts here too.

Maybe they will make it and it rules but they still shit can it after half a season again anyway and we just add a new generation of fanatical Firefly fans to the ranks who are just as united as we are.

*Fingers crossed that it doesn't happen that way. I dont think I could go through that much pain a second time around.*

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Friday, March 6, 2009 3:45 AM

I think you are also right and it is also worth discussing alternative 'verse stories in any type of format.

For an animated episodes I would really like to see Firefly continue just because it is a realistic option to making sure crew and their stories get told because there is still SO much more life in it.

If an animated show took of however we could also one day see a spinoff ala Angel(even a live action one). I loved Buffy and I loved Angel so it stands to reason that if Firefly had a sister show I would love them both too. Man you are going to give me wet dreams now Fiddler making me think about two shows as good as Firefly on tv at the same time.

More graphic novels or even real novels done well and made cannon about alternative aspects or characters of the 'verse would be awsome as well and if we can get the fan base even bigger I cant see why it wouldnt happen. Star wars has plenty of novels.

There is still so much you can do with the 'verse it could go on for ever. Especially if we can keep significantly growing the fanbase.

Imagine this Firefly spin off.

Jayne one day gets his own ship, his own crew and his own show.

LOL Maybe its not the best idea but at the same time........... maybe its the best idea ever

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Friday, March 6, 2009 6:57 AM

STORYMARK

While I'd love to see a Firefly animated show, I doubt the market is really there for it. Animation aimed at adults is still a niche within a niche, and to be made in a way that we'd like, it would probably be too expensive.

Besides, if Joss couldn't get a Buffy cartoon running at the height of it's popularity, the odds of a Firefly one getting a shot are slim to none.

Oh, and the X-Men animated series was pretty cool, saturday-morning based or not (though I did get a prime-time run for a while, paired with Batman:TAS).

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, March 6, 2009 7:04 AM

Whoa so you actually have an animation studio interested in this project? You might want to start a new thread with a more catchy title. I was just bored and thought I'd check in on this discussion. I didn't for a second think things were progressing this quickly. I doubt enough people are reading this.

I'm sure if this got spread around the different Firefly communities we could get enough people. Heck if we could get something on digg I bet all the closet Firefly fans, who don't constantly skim Firefly message boards, would show their support.

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Friday, March 6, 2009 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
While I'd love to see a Firefly animated show, I doubt the market is really there for it. Animation aimed at adults is still a niche within a niche,

Aren't we a Niche. We are a large enough population to make it wildly profitable, and there is an untapped subset that would be acquired. After all we've done, believe it or not, firefly is still not very well known. We grow daily.

The time wasn't right for Buffy, probably never will be. Buffy told the fullness of its story for the most part. There isn't this sense of not getting a chance, a very tiny minority were behind it, and there really wasn't much left to say in it.

There are many indie and even major groups that would be willing if it was really wanted, and the only major snafus are contractual issues between Fox, Universal, and Whedon.

anyway, these are just ideas to try and keep it alive.

"Am I talking to Miranda now?"

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Friday, March 6, 2009 12:12 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Fiddler:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
While I'd love to see a Firefly animated show, I doubt the market is really there for it. Animation aimed at adults is still a niche within a niche,

Aren't we a Niche. We are a large enough population to make it wildly profitable, and there is an untapped subset that would be acquired. After all we've done, believe it or not, firefly is still not very well known. We grow daily.

Yes, we are a niche. And just this thread shows that there are some browncoats who are not interested in animation. And given that there really has never been any western animated drama that appealed to a large adult audience, it'd be facing a big uphill climb from the start.

Quote:
The time wasn't right for Buffy, probably never will be. Buffy told the fullness of its story for the most part. There isn't this sense of not getting a chance, a very tiny minority were behind it, and there really wasn't much left to say in it.

That's a fan perspective. The people who'd have to put up the money for this won't care if the story's finished, of if it had a chance. And the Buffy cartooon they tried at the height of the shows popularity, before the story had finished, so I don't really see how your point applies.

Quote:
There are many indie and even major groups that would be willing if it was really wanted,

That sounds more like wishfull thinking, than anything factual. There have been many properties more successful than Firefly that have tried to continue in animated form, and almost all of them have fallen by the wayside.

It's a nice thought. But the many practicalities involved, far beyond just the rights, weigh heavily against it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, March 6, 2009 1:28 PM

touche

"Am I talking to Miranda now?"

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Saturday, March 7, 2009 8:51 AM

@ Storymark

Quote:
While I'd love to see a Firefly animated show, I doubt the market is really there for it.

The market isn't ther for it 'yet'. Thats why we are here.

Quote:
Besides, if Joss couldn't get a Buffy cartoon running at the height of it's popularity, the odds of a Firefly one getting a shot are slim to none.

On the surface I see your point but there are so many differences between Firefly and Buffy animation and the circumstances surrounding them that it is not very accurate to compare them. You guys have touched on it but I don't really consider it worth debating. If anyone disagrees I will though. I just don't have much time right now.

Quote:
Yes, we are a niche. And just this thread shows that there are some browncoats who are not interested in animation. And given that there really has never been any western animated drama that appealed to a large adult audience, it'd be facing a big uphill climb from the start.

Correct we are a niche. Just becuase a fan is not interested in animation though does that mean that they never will be? Does it mean that it isn't possible to grow a niche? Does that mean the tastes a niche has arn't good? We are all a niche as long as we all don't like reality tv and crap shows like the hills. Just because there hasn't been any significant interest in western animated drama does that mean that there never will be? I doubt it. What if Firefly was the first show to change that? Just because something is an uphill battle does that mean that it isn't worth fighting for or that it isn't achievable? Whats your definition of a large audience anyway?

Quote:
That's a fan perspective. The people who'd have to put up the money for this won't care if the story's finished, of if it had a chance. And the Buffy cartooon they tried at the height of the shows popularity, before the story had finished, so I don't really see how your point applies.

Thats a fan perspective also. I know people with a profesional perspective that would disagree with you. I agree that they wont ONLY care about if the story is finished and that they will also consider profits. Thats only natural for a company. But what I would also add and this has already been adressed in this thread is that there isn't much point making a show for fans if they are not going to adress what the fans want. The only reason we are getting serious consideration for animation is because they recognise that there are fans who wish firefly's story had of finished and that the show had of had a chance to succeed. The whole point of this is to generate enough fans so they will make this how we want and give it 'another' chance to succeed.

Also, a story is never really finished. There is always something more you can add. As far as a live action show go's, Buffy's story deffinatly finished.

Quote:
That sounds more like wishfull thinking, than anything factual. There have been many properties more successful than Firefly that have tried to continue in animated form, and almost all of them have fallen by the wayside.

Wishful thinking is exactly why we are here and you have already said that 'almost' all of them have failed. When it comes to me and I can imagine allot of other Firefily fans 'almost' is enough. Not to mention the 'fact' thet GB's company is very real and that his industry knowledge has clearly identified how many fans we need on board to make this happen. The number he has given could be considered a niche.

As far as I can see we as browncoats have two options. One is defeatist and one is optimistic.

1) Accept that we will never get to see more Firefly ever again and also accept that all the potential the story and the characters had will never be fulfilled.

OR

2) Identify the most viable way for this awsome show to continue and then unconditionally believe in and also support it because we love the show so much.

@ ZEEK

Good idea mate and thanks for the input. This has all deffinatly progressed very fast since this thread was started so a more accurate title of what is currenty going on would deffinatly help. Also, we have only really just started to try and get this idea out there. I am reluctant to change threads at the moment because allot of good points have been covered here and I am learning allot but I agree that coverage is a concern so I will definatly look into fixing this soon.

Your so right mate about getting this idea out to all the people who don't go to message boards and it is something we have to adress on facebook also. I don't even know what digg is but once I wake up tommorow I will be checking it out. I just got home from a party(I'm still a little drunk) and I am really looking forward to going to bed right now.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:52 AM

I'm going to try to remember to add your group thingiemabob on facebook. A.) I'll probably forget cause I most likely won't have time tonight B.) I'm a facebook noob and probably won't figure it out.

Still I'll do my best.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:18 AM

It's super easy Zeek.

Just click on this link. Log in if it doesnt do so automatically. And hit join group.

Thats all it takes to help make this dream a reality.

http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=61221961583&ref=mf

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:33 AM

MASTERJACKRYERSON

Well, after reading the entire thread(Jeez, it was long) I have to say that I agree. If it was done right, an animated series would not only be good, but, at this point, it may be our only chance at getting something more of FF...

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:33 AM

MASTERJACKRYERSON

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:34 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:
@ Storymark

Quote:
While I'd love to see a Firefly animated show, I doubt the market is really there for it.

The market isn't ther for it 'yet'. Thats why we are here.

But "we" are not really a big enough market, or this would have happened long ago.

Quote:
On the surface I see your point but there are so many differences between Firefly and Buffy animation and the circumstances surrounding them that it is not very accurate to compare them. You guys have touched on it but I don't really consider it worth debating. If anyone disagrees I will though. I just don't have much time right now.

I agree, there are differences. Chiefly amongst them: Buffy was very popular with a wide audience and got a huge ammount of media attention, Firefly alas, was not. Buffy was, and still is, a property much more likely to survive a transition to another medium.

Sure, a group of dedicated fans, within the industry, could get something moving - maybe. That does not mean that it'd actually be successfull. If every single Browncoat watched - it probably wouldn't be enough to actually be a success. We need people outside our niche to bring that. And as this thread alone has shown, not even every Browncoat would watch an animated version, just like not every one reads the comics.

Quote:
Correct we are a niche. Just becuase a fan is not interested in animation though does that mean that they never will be? Does it mean that it isn't possible to grow a niche? Does that mean the tastes a niche has arn't good? We are all a niche as long as we all don't like reality tv and crap shows like the hills. Just because there hasn't been any significant interest in western animated drama does that mean that there never will be? I doubt it. What if Firefly was the first show to change that? Just because something is an uphill battle does that mean that it isn't worth fighting for or that it isn't achievable? Whats your definition of a large audience anyway?

Of course it doesn't mean that those with niche tastes have poor taste - I never said anything like that. What it does mean, however, is that we're a small group, and thus far less likely to form a profitable audience.

It's all dandy to say "maybe" Firefly would be the first animated show to click in that way, but it's just wishfull thinking - nothing factual to base it on. The fact is, if anyone were going to try to launch an animated series based on a TV show, they'd do something with a greater chance at a broad appeal - which Firefly/Serenity has failed at - twice. I love it, but I won't deny the reality.

Quote:
Thats a fan perspective also.

It's a fan perspective to say a company's only going to want to invest millions of dollars into something the think a large group of people might watch. M'kay.....

Quote:
Also, a story is never really finished. There is always something more you can add. As far as a live action show go's, Buffy's story deffinatly finished.

Yes, but as I've already pointed out, more than once - the Buffy animation project was something they tried while Buffy was still going - thus it WASN'T DONE YET.

Quote:
As far as I can see we as browncoats have two options. One is defeatist and one is optimistic.

You're missing the third - the pragmatic approach - the one where we seek way of continuing the story, which actually have a chance for success.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:46 AM

MASTERJACKRYERSON

Quote:
You're missing the third - the pragmatic approach - the one where we seek way of continuing the story, which actually have a chance for success.

Out of curiosity, what way would you see best for continuing the story?

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Sure, a group of dedicated fans, within the industry, could get something moving - maybe. That does not mean that it'd actually be successfull. If every single Browncoat watched - it probably wouldn't be enough to actually be a success. We need people outside our niche to bring that. And as this thread alone has shown, not even every Browncoat would watch an animated version, just like not every one reads the comics.

What's your point? If the animation studios agree then they won't pursue the project. Is there are reason we should try to make that decision for them?

It's just my assumption, but I'm thinking the fanbase to make an animated show successful is far far less than a live action show. The budget for Firefly was quite large for a TV show if I recall correctly. I can't imagine animation would be anywhere near that cost. Plus the live action show needed network television sized success. An animated show would likely be on cable where they are happy with much smaller viewership.

I'm happy to let an animation studio know I'd watch the show and then leave the decision up to them. I think that's a better option than convincing ourselves it won't happen so we shouldn't even try.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:06 PM

I checked out that guys "professional" quality animation... not impressed. Not even remotely. It just doesn't fit FF/S.

I'll also point out that his offer, "I'll get my company to do animation mock ups of each of the characters" would be a violation of copyright/IP law. He should expect to get his ass sued the moment Fox and/or Universal finds out about it. And his comment, "I am confident we could see the show by Fall 2010." is delusional. Or has he gotten both Universal and Fox to sign off on the project? I think not.

Seriously, Fox and Universal can't agree on how to work something that is guaranteed to have a revenue stream like the killed FF/S MMO...

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

The budget for Firefly was quite large for a TV show if I recall correctly.

As I recall, it was a couple million per ep. That wasn't much back then, and it isn't much now. At least for shows that require CG. The real issue is that /scripted/ shows are *far* more expensive then "reality shows." This cost thing is just a pathetic excuse from Fox to kill a show that they didn't like from the get go.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I can't imagine animation would be anywhere near that cost. Plus the live action show needed network television sized success. An animated show would likely be on cable where they are happy with much smaller viewership.

If you're talking about a specialised channel such as the outdoor network, then you're right. But, in general, you're wrong. Counter example, BSG.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I'm happy to let an animation studio know I'd watch the show and then leave the decision up to them. I think that's a better option than convincing ourselves it won't happen so we shouldn't even try.

You're 1/2 right. You're right that letting studios know that you're interested in a product is a good idea. But, you're wrong about the convincing part. We don't need convincing that it won't happen. It won't. There are legal issues among other things that are reasons why it won't happen.

Why must this community continue to pursue pipe dreams instead of projects that actually have a chance at success? Oh, wait. Those projects require actual work instead of just sending an email stating that they want something. God forbid that people would actually do something.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:05 PM

And what DO you suggest?

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 9:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

And what DO you suggest?

I'm honestly starting to wonder just how many times I (and others) have to say it before people will actually listen. But, my last paragraph kind of said it all:

Quote:

Why must this community continue to pursue pipe dreams instead of projects that actually have a chance at success? Oh, wait. Those projects require actual work instead of just sending an email stating that they want something. God forbid that people would actually do something.

So, to be explicitly clear:

Do NOT depend on the studios. There are legal issues up the **** that lead to the killing of the MMO and will kill any other projects.

DO make your own stuff. I outlined (again) some stuff here: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=20&t=34491#684412

Some other thoughts:

- Pool the resources. Our community might look active to some, but it really *really* isn't. There are *far* more people leaving than coming in. Everyone splitting off and doing there own thing will just create a bunch of failed projects instead of a few with a good chance of success.

- Think small. Don't do these grand projects that will take vast amounts of time and resources to complete. Pick something that a couple people could do in a couple months if they worked hard on it. It doesn't matter if that turns into working on and off over a year or more. The point is to do something that doesn't require massive amounts of time and energy to complete. This significantly increases the projects chance of success.

- Do something that doesn't require support from the community. I know first hand just how little support projects get (not to mention seen it in *many* other projects as well). It's a YAY in the beginning, then after a few days to a few weeks, nothing; all those promises of help evaporate.

- If a project has stalled, restart it. Starting new projects that re-create what has already been done makes the community look bad through numerous dead projects. So, make sure to do a thorough search before starting anything.

- (Re)start projects that produce something for the community. Sending letters/emails/etc or starting online polls/etc does nothing. Fan fic and fan art are a couple ideas. Games, whether they are board, card, or computer, are some more.

My above linked post links to a couple projects that have actually done something.

All that said, any project stands the chance of getting shut down. That is just the reality of using IP that one doesn't own or have license to use. Little fan projects are typically tolerated. But, large projects can catch the lawyers attention and projects where money exchanges hands (regardless of profit) will get killed as soon as the powers that be find it.

In essence, when thinking of a project, one should consider (not a complete list):

- How many people do I need to have work on this to complete it?
- How long will it take to complete?
- Is there a need for special skills on the project?
- Does it require funds that I/we don't have?
- Has someone else done/started it before?
- Does it produce something for the community to enjoy?
- Will it complete with a product already in existence, or with something that will or is likely to exist in the future?

As for me, I have a couple projects rattling around my brain that satisfy most or all of the above. But, I learned long ago not to say anything until I'm relatively certain things will work out. So, I continue my fiddling in secrecy.

As for you, if you're asking me for new project ideas, or known dead projects that could use a boost, I can't help aside from the links I've already given in that other post. Find others or create them yourself. Same goes for everyone else.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:45 PM

@ STORYMARK

Quote:
But "we" are not really a big enough market, or this would have happened long ago.

This was tried long ago, soon after the movie in fact, but the fans where so over zealous about live action or nothing that it never took off. But back then there was still a realistic chance of more live action. This is not the case now.

Quote:
I agree, there are differences. Chiefly amongst them: Buffy was very popular with a wide audience and got a huge ammount of media attention, Firefly alas, was not. Buffy was, and still is, a property much more likely to survive a transition to another medium.

Your logic about buffy animation differences is correct but you failed to mention some other chief differences which balance out your negative views. While buffy was popular the fans where satisfied on the whole with the way buffy ended and how the story and characters where fully explored. They had no significant reason to support buffy animation. Firefly fans however are very much the opposite and are more likely to go out of there way to support any viable means for the story to reach its full potential.

Also, there where not as many options back then when it came to finding a home for such a show. Nowadays there are channels catoring to almost all tastes and styles and as long as there is 'adequite' support anything can take off.

An example. The first time I ever heard about the animated show cowboy beebop was when someone compared it to firefly. About two weeks ago I was surfing through foxtel and saw cowboy beebop on sci fi so I flicked over to check it out. I watched it for ten minutes and what I saw was a bunch of criminals who had taken over a spaceship. They where discussing there sordid pasts and then got into an argument and one guy ended up getting his throat slit.

Are you telling me that a show like that could be airable and Firefly couldn't. I reckon there are more Firefly fans than cowboy beebop fans. I know the story, script and characters on firefly are better than CB. If that isn't a realistic example I dont know what is.

Quote:
Sure, a group of dedicated fans, within the industry, could get something moving - maybe. That does not mean that it'd actually be successfull. If every single Browncoat watched - it probably wouldn't be enough to actually be a success. We need people outside our niche to bring that. And as this thread alone has shown, not even every Browncoat would watch an animated version, just like not every one reads the comics.

Zeek has already adressed this but I will re-iterate also.

If every single firefly fan whatched an animated show then its success is gaurenteed, but I agree that not all of them would. I do however think that if it was made 'most' of them would at least check it out despite their reservations and then all it comes down to is if the show is good or not.

You are wrong about needing fans outside our niche. We need many more fans from outside our niche to bring about live action. We only need to convince 'part' of our nich to support animation for this to get a chance. There are many Firefly fans and it has already been pointed out how much cheaper animation is. We only need a fraction of the fans for this to have a chance.

If it is made and it kicks ass and word spreads to the rest of the fans then not only will it ensure that the rest of the story will unfold via animation but it also makes us well on our way to having the first animated drama with a 'significant' following. Myabe it wont happen, but I dont really care about that anyway. At a minimum I just want this to take off and be maintained by the fraction of the fans who only care about the story, script and characters getting a fair go.

In regards to the comics. There is allot you cannot do in comics. But there is not allot you cannot do in animation. Complete episodic and seasonal story arcs, check. Dynamic conversation, action, and the proper conveyance of humerous and emotional scenes, checks. With good animation you can make a very accurate replication of the show as it should have been and I am only touching on it. I am no animator.

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Of course it doesn't mean that those with niche tastes have poor taste - I never said anything like that. What it does mean, however, is that we're a small group, and thus far less likely to form a profitable audience.

Sorry I shouldnt have implied your meaning. But you ignored allot of my points too. I have already stated that we are a small group. But if all firelfy fans where made aware of this being a realistic option to getting more 'quality' firefly episodes then we would grow significantly. If enough fans put the effort in to support it then we would make some converts and grow more. If we can just reach the very achivable goals that have been set then the show can be made and if it is good we will grow even more.

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It's all dandy to say "maybe" Firefly would be the first animated show to click in that way, but it's just wishfull thinking - nothing factual to base it on. The fact is, if anyone were going to try to launch an animated series based on a TV show, they'd do something with a greater chance at a broad appeal - which Firefly/Serenity has failed at - twice. I love it, but I won't deny the reality.

It might be wishful thinking, there is nothing wrong with that. But I have given factual reasons above why it 'might' be possible and I will give you one more. Firefly's story and writing and fanatical fan support are so unique that if there ever was a chance of animation making a big splash then firefly has more chance than most concepts I can think of. It also might not happen but as I have already said, it is not neccesary for us to break the mold.

I agree that any company will 'also' try and reach a broader audiance, but that does not mean they are going to change the tone. Reaching a broader audiance could be something as simple as marketing it right(this time). I am sure they considered reaching a broad audiance while making the original firefly episodes and look how good those episodes where.

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It's a fan perspective to say a company's only going to want to invest millions of dollars into something the think a large group of people might watch. M'kay.....

Unless you are involved in some sort of production company then everything 'we' say is a fan perspective. Besides, you ignored my point again. Of course they are only going to spend millions of dollars on something they think a large amount of people are going to want to watch. There are a large amount of people who want to see fireflys story unfold though. Fair enough not all of them want to watch animation but not all of them have to. As I asked you before, whats your idea of a large audience anyway? From what I have heard to get animation happening we only need a comparitivly 'small' audience.

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Yes, but as I've already pointed out, more than once - the Buffy animation project was something they tried while Buffy was still going - thus it WASN'T DONE YET.

Sorry can you clarify this for me. From what I have heard the story was set after the events of the last season so how was it supposed to take of before the live action show was finished?

I see what you mean that the story wasn't done yet. But this is relative and you missed my point because I guess I need to explain it a bit more. No matter how definitive a story's ending is you can always add more if you want to. Unless the story ends with the whole planet blowing up and all the characters dying then you can write on forever. All that is needed for a story to continue is demand to see more. Since Buffy had a satisfying and difinitive conclusion(the whole town got sucked into the hellmouth) it definatly ended and fans where not motivated to even consider animation. At the very least it definatly had a satisfying ending. Unlike Firefly.

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You're missing the third - the pragmatic approach - the one where we seek way of continuing the story, which actually have a chance for success.

Thank you. I missed that one and it more accuratly represents why we support Firefly animation anyway. What approach are you taking? You sure have a strange way of expressing how you would love to see some animated Firefly.

Sorry for the long post but I like to respond to 'all' of the points someone makes.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:05 PM

@ SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
I checked out that guys "professional" quality animation... not impressed. Not even remotely. It just doesn't fit FF/S.

I'll also point out that his offer, "I'll get my company to do animation mock ups of each of the characters" would be a violation of copyright/IP law. He should expect to get his ass sued the moment Fox and/or Universal finds out about it. And his comment, "I am confident we could see the show by Fall 2010." is delusional. Or has he gotten both Universal and Fox to sign off on the project? I think not.

Seriously, Fox and Universal can't agree on how to work something that is guaranteed to have a revenue stream like the killed FF/S MMO...

Its fine that you don't like his animation. Everyone has different tastes. Personally I like the quality of his work but I have only seen stills so I will reserve final judgment untill I see it live. His style however is irrelivent. The stlye he is using is likely fitting for his movie and is not neccesarily the style he would use for firefly. In fact he and his company would likely get together and try and work out the most fitting style to accuratly represent the 'verse and use their resources and expierience to do it justice. Thats not even mentioning the fact that we are really only supporting Firefly animation. Whoever makes it is our 'secondary' concern at best.

I like how you wrote 'proffesional' like that. Like an animated feature film that cost over two million dollars to make could even be considered anything other than proffesional.

The guy runs a company so I highly doubt that he is stupid enough to offer to do anything that could get him sued. As far as I know anyone can write or draw anything they want as long as said material isn't used to make money. There is already some 'unporfessional' Firefly animation going around.

How do you know he is delusional? Can I ask what you do for a living? The guy is just trying to help us understand that all this concept needs is open minded fans to get behind it. Like he has already tried to do a few years back.

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As I recall, it was a couple million per ep. That wasn't much back then, and it isn't much now. At least for shows that require CG. The real issue is that /scripted/ shows are *far* more expensive then "reality shows." This cost thing is just a pathetic excuse from Fox to kill a show that they didn't like from the get go.

According to GB live action was about 2 million an episode. Good animation can be done for five hundred thousand an episode(including talent). Four hundred thousand if they order episodes in numbers.

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If you're talking about a specialised channel such as the outdoor network, then you're right. But, in general, you're wrong. Counter example, BSG.

GB; "Television is solely a numbers game. If the numbers are there, the network will respond. Fox needed numbers in the 5 million viewers range. As I said, an animated version on Sci-Fi in a late night spot could be landed for a tenth of that."

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You're 1/2 right. You're right that letting studios know that you're interested in a product is a good idea. But, you're wrong about the convincing part. We don't need convincing that it won't happen. It won't. There are legal issues among other things that are reasons why it won't happen.

Thats not a very detailed explanation. I don't think there is a legal reason on the planet that would stop the owners of the firefly rights making more profit on the show. If there is I can assure you they will do their best to get arround it and it is certainly nothing us fans should be concerned about. As I have already said, all we should be focusing on is showing them how much we want to see more firefly.

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Why must this community continue to pursue pipe dreams instead of projects that actually have a chance at success? Oh, wait. Those projects require actual work instead of just sending an email stating that they want something. God forbid that people would actually do something.

This is a project is worthy of actual work and who said anything about stopping at emails. Fans expressing there desires on facebook, Myspace, websites, youtube, digg, emails and signing petitions and making fan art and doing whatever is in there power will make this even more likely to happen and it is also what us browncoats are famouse for.

If you can tell me one project that has a greater chance of success than this then I will personally delete the facebook cause and join the fight for something even more possible.

As for your latest post it is not clear at all on a more likely way to make more Firefly happen. In fact it supports this idea in many ways.

One of them is that you are very right that us browncoats are not the force we used to be. Thats why we have to make a stand now before its too late. Stir up some interest again beore we all forget and lose hope. Personally I myself gave up on Firefly a long time ago because it just wasnt realistic to keep hoping. But this was before I learned about animation and all the reason why it could not only happen, but it could be just as good as I always wished Firefly would have been had it continued.

IF WE DONT ACT NOW THEN THEN WE WILL NEVER GET ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT EVER AGAIN.

I know this in my mind but more importantly I know it in my heart.

You make allot of assumptions about how this concept is going to be treated. Can I ask what industry expierience YOU have. I don't know you or GB very well but I can at least look GB up on the internet and varify his credentials as well as ascertain the likelyhood that he knows what he is talking about.

You should come onto facebook and discuss this with GB. I am only really interested in everything we fans can do to make this a reality but if all this stuff concerns you then he might have some interesting answers.

I have spent enough time posting for one night otherwise I would not have given a general overview of your last post. I will be back tommorow though.

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

His style however is irrelivent.

Actually, his style is relevant. He's stated in prior threads that his company "has its own style." So, that says something about what his is more than likely to do. Look through the archives if you don't believe me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

I like how you wrote 'proffesional' like that. Like an animated feature film that cost over two million dollars to make could even be considered anything other than proffesional.

Well, 1) you should spell things correctly if you're going to get snide like that, and 2) there are many many movies/etc that are consider unprofessional. A good example of that is the Dragonlance animated movie. The word, professional, says more about the word than how much money was spent on it. It tells much about the quality as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

The guy runs a company so I highly doubt that he is stupid enough to offer to do anything that could get him sued. As far as I know anyone can write or draw anything they want as long as said material isn't used to make money. There is already some 'unporfessional' Firefly animation going around.

You really really need to become more familiar with copyright/IP law.

There's also the fact that tiny little fan projects are typically tolerated (note the typically, some The X Files fans found out when they weren't typical). But, they are still breaking the law and could be shut down at any time.

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Originally posted by Ads:

How do you know he is delusional?

I answered that already. Read the next sentence to that statement.

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Originally posted by Ads:

Can I ask what you do for a living?

Now there is an irrelevant statement if I ever saw one. Also, see comment directly above.

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Originally posted by Ads:

The guy is just trying to help us understand that all this concept needs is open minded fans to get behind it. Like he has already tried to do in the past.

No, it needs far more than that. This "concept" needs to get permission from the current IP holders (Fox and Universal). That costs money.

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Originally posted by Ads:

According to GB live action was about 2 million an episode. Good animation can be done for five hundred thousand an episode(including talent). Four hundred thousand if they order episodes in numbers.

So, you verify what I said and include some other numbers. What's your point? It's still an IP that "we" do not have permission to use nor money that "we" have.

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Originally posted by Ads:

GB; "Television is solely a numbers game. If the numbers are there, the network will respond. Fox needed numbers in the 5 million viewers range. As I said, an animated version on Sci-Fi in a late night spot could be landed for a tenth of that."

Cherry picking your data then, eh? Well, even if that is true, and I highly doubt that, where are those viewers going to come from? Because, even many many Firefly fans have stated that they won't watch. As in, a statement such as the above is moot until the number are proven and the ROI is guaranteed.

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Originally posted by Ads:

Thats not a very detailed explanation. I don't think there is a legal reason on the planet that would stop the owners of the firefly rights making more profit on the show. If there is I can assure you they will do their best to get arround it and it is certainly nothing us fans should be concerned about.

Yah, because that's just what happened with the MMO. Right?

Are you an Ostridge?

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Originally posted by Ads:

As I have already said, all we should be focusing on is showing them how much we want to see more firefly.

Yah, because that's worked so well in the past, right? You know, one of the definitions of insanity is repeating the same behaviour over and over again expecting different results. Sound familiar?

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Originally posted by Ads:

This is a project is worthy of actual work and who said anything about stopping at emails. Fans expressing there desires on facebook, Myspace, websites, youtube, digg, emails and signing petitions and making fan art and doing whatever is in there power will make this even more likely to happen and it is also what us browncoats are famouse for.

And any other number of projects weren't worthy of actual work?!?!?

What you're suggesting isn't something that Browncoats are "famous" for, it's what Browncoats are infamous for. Or don't you know the Browcoats reputation in the other fandoms? See also my comment directly above.

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Originally posted by Ads:

If you can tell me one project that has a greater chance of success than this then I will personally delete the facebook cause and join the fight for something even more possible.

These guys have been working on there project for the past couple years and are nearing completion of episode 1:

http://s4.invisionfree.com/GunRunner/index.php?act=idx

Go nuts. I also believe that they could use some help.

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Originally posted by Ads:

As for your latest post it is not clear at all on a more likely way to make more Firefly happen. In fact it supports this idea in many ways.

I wasn't clear because I can't force people to do any thing. Nor am I willing to waste time and energy coming up with ideas when this community has shown a near complete inability to go forward with anything that has even the most remote hint of effort. Coming up with a decent criteria for any such project is a far as I'm willing to go.

But, it actually does _not_ support this animation idea. This idea fails most, if not all, of my criteria listed above.

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Originally posted by Ads:

One of them is that you are very right that us browncoats are not the force we used to be. Thats why we have to make a stand now before its too late. Stir up some interest again beore we all forget and lose hope.

Stir up interest in who? There's basically no-one around any more! Couple that with the fact that most people consider animation only for children and this project dies.

I should also point out that we were never a force to be reckoned with. You should get that out of your head straight away. We were just there in the background while Joss, et al, did all the work. We were just there so that when he said, there's lots of fans, he could point at us. And even with that, Universal took a big risk.

But, if you want an example of sad hilarity, you need look no further than:

http://www.savefirefly.org/

Let's just say that there first (and currently only) campaign wasn't exactly a success.

In other words, stirring up interest isn't exactly something that's really done here any more.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Personally I myself gave up on Firefly a long time ago because it just wasnt realistic to keep hoping. But this was before I learned about animation and all the reason why it could not only happen, but it could be just as good as I always wished Firefly would have been had it continued.

No it won't. Firefly had subtly and nuance that can't be obtained in animation. The flavour of the show will be missing. So, an animation definitely won't be as good as Firefly was back then.

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Originally posted by Ads:

IF WE DONT ACT NOW THEN THEN WE WILL NEVER GET ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT EVER AGAIN.

And goblins will attack and eat children!!! And there's be the four horsemen on the horizon!!! And...

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Originally posted by Ads:

I know this in my mind but more importantly I know it in my heart.

Oh, well then. I didn't known you felt it in your heart. That changes everything...

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Originally posted by Ads:

You make allot of assumptions about how this concept is going to be treated.

Not really. I just know more about this because I was around the last time this was brought up (which included GB) and have a good memory. Not to mention have a vastly superior understand of copyright/IP law than you and I would assume, GB as well.

But, given what you've written, you should really take that assumption comment and turn it on yourself

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Can I ask what industry expierience YOU have. I don't know you or GB very well but I can at least look GB up on the internet and varify his credentials as well as ascertain the likelyhood that he knows what he is talking about.

At best what you're implying here is sophistry. One doesn't need industry experience to know what laws are out there and can be acted upon. Point of fact, GB will put himself (and his company) in a very actionable position if he pursues this project. THAT is verifiable. Go ahead and check it.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

This was tried long ago, soon after the movie in fact, but the fans where so over zealous about live action or nothing that it never took off. But back then there was still a realistic chance of more live action. This is not the case now.

No we weren't. We were against an animated series because the medium doesn't fit FF/S. I was there, I know.

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Originally posted by Ads:

While buffy was popular the fans where satisfied on the whole with the way buffy ended and how the story and characters where fully explored. They had no significant reason to support buffy animation.

Moot.

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Originally posted by Ads:

Firefly fans however are very much the opposite and are more likely to go out of there way to support any viable means for the story to reach its full potential.

Nope. Though, I think you won't believe me as the fans that would be against this don't really come around any more. It's mostly delusional fan boys here now.

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Originally posted by Ads:

Also, there where not as many options back then when it came to finding a home for such a show. Nowadays there are channels catoring to almost all tastes and styles and as long as there is 'adequite' support anything can take off.

It was actually pretty much the same back then. I mean, sure there are more channels now. But, there really isn't any more channels that would be relevant to Buffy or FF/S survival.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

An example. The first time I ever heard about the animated show cowboy beebop was when someone compared it to firefly. About two weeks ago I was surfing through foxtel and saw cowboy beebop on sci fi so I flicked over to check it out. I watched it for ten minutes and what I saw was a bunch of criminals who had taken over a spaceship. They where discussing there sordid pasts and then got into an argument and one guy ended up getting his throat slit.

Are you telling me that a show like that could be airable and Firefly couldn't. I reckon there are more Firefly fans than cowboy beebop fans. I know the story, script and characters on firefly are better than CB. If that isn't a realistic example I dont know what is.

Not a realistic example. CB was created as an anime whereas Firefly was filmed and would need to be converted for the new medium. A conversion that isn't possible due to reasons in my last post. Not to mention the radically different animation styles...

But, I'll correct you on your comment that CB's ship was a bunch of criminals. They aren't. They are bounty hunters.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Zeek has already adressed this but I will re-iterate also.

If every single firefly fan whatched an animated show then its success is gaurenteed, but I agree that not all of them would. I do however think that if it was made 'most' of them would at least check it out despite their reservations and then all it comes down to is if the show is good or not.

You are wrong about needing fans outside our niche. We need many more fans from outside our niche to bring about live action. We only need to convince 'part' of our nich to support animation for this to get a chance. There are many Firefly fans and it has already been pointed out how much cheaper animation is. We only need a fraction of the fans for this to have a chance.

If it is made and it kicks ass and word spreads to the rest of the fans then not only will it ensure that the rest of the story will unfold via animation but it also makes us well on our way to having the first animated drama with a 'significant' following.Myabe it wont happen, but I dont really care about that anyway. At a minimum I just want this to take off and be maintained by the fraction of the fans who only care about the story, script and characters getting a fair go.

Two terms apply here, delusional and baseless assumption.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

and the proper conveyance of humerous and emotional scenes, checks.

Wrong. Animation still cannot convey true human emotions and the subtly and nuance of precise facial expressions. Some modern games (a la Final Fantasy: Spirits Within) come close. But, close isn't good enough here. Missing the mark will mean failure.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Sorry I shouldnt have implied your meaning. But you ignored allot of my points too. I have already stated that we are a small group. But if all firelfy fans where made aware of this being a realistic option to getting more 'quality' firefly episodes then we would grow significantly. If enough fans put the effort in to support it then we would make some converts and grow more. If we can just reach the very achivable goals that have been set then the show can be made and if it is good we will grow even more.

And how exactly will you reach all the Firefly fans? I reference savefirefly.org. You're also making gross assumptions about the quality of the show. Assumptions that aren't even remotely justified.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

It might be wishful thinking, there is nothing wrong with that. But I have given factual reasons above why it 'might' be possible and I will give you one more. Firefly's story and writing and fanatical fan support are so unique that if there ever was a chance of animation making a big splash then firefly has more chance than most concepts I can think of. It also might not happen but as I have already said, it is not neccesary for us to break the mold.

Yet another assumption. Will Joss be on board, and if not, will the writers be able to re-produce the type of dialogue that Joss is known for. Chances are no. In fact, I've yet to see any one do it.

What you're also doing is not acknowledging the holes in your thinking. As in, you put forth something assuming it's correct. Then someone comes along and shoots holes through it. You then continue as if those holes are not there.

You also seem to have a problem understanding the difference between words like 'might' and words like 'is'. Because, there is a profound difference between something that is factual and something that might be. The former is guaranteed, the latter is not. Learn the difference.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

I agree that any company will 'also' try and reach a broader audiance, but that does not mean they are going to change the tone. Reaching a broader audiance could be something as simple as marketing it right(this time). I am sure they considered reaching a broad audiance while making the original firefly episodes and look how good those episodes where.

They did change the tone considerable from what Joss wanted. One of them being that Joss wanted Mal to be the asshole seen in the movie whereas the studio execs wanted Mal to be more light. Joss didn't argue as he already knew the show was in trouble. I have to say that the execs were right on that one, among other things.

Point of fact, companies always change some things. Those changes will in turn have an effect on the overall tone of the show. It's unavoidable.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

There are a large amount of people who want to see fireflys story unfold though. Fair enough not all of them want to watch animation but not all of them have to.

Not as many as you'd think. Not only do many fans not want to see an animated series, there are many fans that don't want to see the story unfold again at all. Too much time has past for it to be the same or even similar. Many realise that nothing could live up to the expectations and thus any new series would fall on its face because of that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

As I asked you before, whats your idea of a large audience anyway? From what I have heard to get animation happening we only need a comparitivly 'small' audience.

Point of fact, no-one knows that number of people needed to view the series. That number will be dependent on where the show ends up and how much it's sold for. There are way too many variables to guess at a number such as this. But, it certainly won't be small.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Sorry can you clarify this for me. From what I have heard the story was set after the events of the last season so how was it supposed to take of before the live action show was finished?

You're confusing the comics with the animated show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_the_Animated_Series

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

All that is needed for a story to continue is demand to see more.

You haven't watched much tv have you? Does the term 'jumped the shark' mean anything to you?

In fact, every show will run out of steam if it isn't cancelled. What do you do with characters that have already done and seen it all? It just can't go on forever, especially when the characters are supposed to be special in some way. After all, how many near misses, scrapes, etc, etc, etc, can characters get into before things get repetitive and boring.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Since Buffy had a satisfying and difinitive conclusion(the whole town got sucked into the hellmouth) it definatly ended and fans where not motivated to even consider animation. At the very least it definatly had a satisfying ending. Unlike Firefly.

How exactly does not being motivated to consider animation have anything to do with what is being discussed here? Oh wait, nothing.

I'll also point out that many Buffy fans are not satisfied with that ending or, in fact, the entire last season. I'm one of them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Thank you. I missed that one and it more accuratly represents why we support Firefly animation anyway. What approach are you taking? You sure have a strange way of expressing how you would love to see some animated Firefly.

Again with the snide sophistry. One does not need a plan that has a chance of success to point out that the current one does not have a chance of success.

The simple answer though is, of course, do it yourself. But, I've addressed this point in enough posts on this site and I'm very tired. If you want some of my ideas, search the archives.

http://fireflyfans.orthogonalspace.ca/

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 1:21 AM

Wow, you really adressed everything in these ones and as a result have made some really good points so I will make another post tonight. You even fired of a second post before I could finish writing a response to your first one(but I am a slow typer). I am really running out of relaxing time now though so I will have to respond to your second one tommorow.

You have deffinatly made your point clear with the qouting everything so I don't think we need to do that anymore. Also some real points have been made as to why this might not work and these warrant some looking into(which I will do)

Fair enough, his style might be relevant(I believe you that he brought it up before). But it also might translate well into firefly and I have yet to see his style in action so I can't make a personal opinion on wether I would like to see Firefly 'similar' to his past work.

I am sorry for being snide. I just disagreed with your insinuation though and voiced a counter. It wasnt the most polite way to do it though. I am also sorry that I have bad spelling. I sometimes forget that this is important to people and forget to spell check everything. I think if an animation company does something though it is considered professional. It might not be good but I never said all professional work was(it is however more likely).

You are probably right when it comes to copyright law. But as I said, I don't think it is a fan concern. If GB thinks he can make some animation mock ups than thats his concern and who am I to doubt him. I am sure if Universal or whoever contact him or he realises that he can't safely make mock ups then he will be the first to withdraw his offer.

Of course this concept will need permission. I have already taken that into account as I am sure GB has also. I already recognised and I am sure he has already taken into account that the best way to get permission is to 'try' and generate fan support for something. If the support is there, then the permission will be soon to follow.

Maybe GB's figures are not accurate. I am not nieve and I don't asssume anything. So you could be 100% correct. But then again until someone contradicts me with something more certain I am inclined to assume(for now) that he knows what he is talking about.

I havnt seen many fans state that they wont watch firefly animation and I am not an ostridge. I agnowledge that there is a broader picture I just recognise that as a fan it is not my concern because it is not something I can influence. I will support the most viable way to get firefly back on the air and if it dies despite having the required support then I will at least know we did our best.

I wasnt even aware of the Firefly MMO and didn't even recognise what it was when I saw it in your post(i just had a quick look then). So is it a certainty that the exact same thing will happen to Firefly animation if it generates support? I am not aware of what happened with the computer game and would be interested in how this translates into a show for a tv program getting canned. Seriously I just wish to know your opinion because you have already looked into this.

I think I would be insane if I actually did expect anything. All I am doing is hoping and making the most imformed choices I can. All I know is if fans do something as simple as joining a facebook group, which is basically just a glorified petition then we 'might' get something. Might being the operative word because if 50,000 firefly fans took fifteen minutes out of their lives then we would see that either it is enough interest to get a response from the big wigs or it isn't. Seiously what do I or any other fan have to lose for just joining a facebook group.

I see your point though and I might be getting over zealous. But I would just say that I am getting excited. I don't want to see a small Firefly project. I want to see a big firefly project that joss is behind and lots of 'proffesional' effort is put into. I am not getting excited because it is a certainty. I am getting excited because I never thought it was possible to see more real Firefly again and now I see a chance again and I have yet been presented with information to a certaintly to contradict it(I will of course be heartbroken 'again' if this happens).

I never said other projects are not worth work. You where the one that neglected to add that this project could be worth some work too. You might not believe in it but I think it is at least worth the effort to try and see if it will work so you can confirm what you already know. I believe that all firefly related projects that have a chance are worth all the fans support. That way the most viable one will take off.

You might be right about the fans reputation. I withdraw my assumptions. I just thought we where good about making our love for the show heard. Thats all I meant.

Getting towards the end of your post I am getting the impresion that I offended you somehow. I apoligise again for my snide remark and also for doubting your knowledge and using caps to do it. I promise to take better care to act more mature in my future posts.

Also, its a different ball game now compared to when this was brought up last time. And as I said, why not take fifteen minutes to join facebook and see what happens. If you are right then the answer will be nothing.

I will check and see if you are right and maybe you are. More specifically though I will just ask GB if he is blowing smoke up our arses and see what is his response.

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 1:43 AM

FILLYGIRL

Operative: "Its worse than you know..." Mal: "It usually is."

WTF?

Chaplain of the 76th Independant Battalion

Do not bother dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

...it's worse than you know...Operative
...it usually is.....Mal

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:08 AM

JAYNESMANE

I'm not sure i'd really like Firefly as an animated show. It just wouldn't be the same.. sure you'd have the story continuation but the entire feel of the show might be lost, I feel..

---
http://surveysafari.x10hosting.com/redirect.html - Make money online filling out surveys!

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:40 AM

I can't believe that fanfic is being compared to a professional effort to bring the Firefly story back. Cannon is so much more appealing than a fan work IMO.

I also think it's ridiculous that there's supposedly some impossible roadblock put up by Universal and Fox. Did you hear about these comic book thingies? Apparently the rights got worked out. I'm not too worried about it happening again.

All in all there's nothing here that is going to hurt the fans. If you would watch the show join the group. If you don't like it then don't bother.

Personally I joined the group. Thanks for the link Ads that made it easy. I'll point some of my other Firefly loving friends to it as well.

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:57 AM

GREENFAERIE

I'd watch an animated version of Firefly. I'm not going to shoot it down without giving it a chance. That's why the original Firefly was cancelled. no one gave it a chance.

(a.k.a. wydraz)

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:17 AM

Well... The situation with Universal and Fox seems a bit murkier right now.

We have Joss Whedon now working for Fox. We have a delay in the newest Serenity comic book. I try to be optimistic about what both those meanings could be, i.e. hey, maybe he's working for Fox again because he was promised some Firefly opportunities. Or even just neutral, in saying Joss is probably just busy with Dollhouse. But it could also be that Fox is trying to squash the comic books, or there's some new fight brewing.

Of course, when it comes to animation, it's not like Fox or Universal have in-house animation studios. They'd have to be approached by an animation company/hire one anyway. And I guess I don't understand why someone can't just offer both companies a cut of the profits.

@ Sigmanunki: Fanwork, even the good stuff, isn't official, isn't Joss, Nathan, and crew. I like fanwork, but proposing that it is the best way to advance the unfinished story lines of Firefly and Serenity, while at the same time decrying that all people are willing to do is post blogs or join facebook groups or give lip-service to ambitious fanprojects doomed to fail, well, that doesn't sit right with me. I support fanwork because these people are authors and artists I respect and I enjoy what they create, not because I think they're all that's potentially left of future Firefly/Serenity. I enjoy their work because it's good, not because they're a lifeline to grasp at and it's all we got.

By the way, which of those categories you mention did the Serenity movie fall under? Small project? Not many people involved? No special skills necessary? Not ambitious? Not a lot of funding?

You seem to think big ideas are bad ideas, that for some reason when a project fizzles out, it also kills hope. I think the big ideas are what give us hope. You say that those hopes are doomed and shouldn't be embraced, I say we should embrace those hopes, or it's a self-fulfilling prophesy that big projects will fail.

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. And maybe you have the experience/knowledge on your side, and maybe support for new ambitious projects has fallen off since the movie. You point out problems with the animation style, acceptance, professionalism, legal rights, and audience that are all valid concerns, issues that would have to be addressed as part of the process to produce these projects.

But I can't just dismiss the new ambitious projects just on account of their being ambitious. You can ask me not to, and I understand why you're asking me not to, but I can't.

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 1:39 PM

ASARIAN

@ Sigmanunki: I don't think the legal issues are as unsurmountable as you make them out to be. They're only untakeable obstacles when you try and go against FOX or Universal -- which no sane person would even try and do.

@ADS: I still have some reservations about an animated Firefly. Sigmanunki did have a good point, namely that facial expression and such would need to be of high quality (comparable to Final Fantasy, The Spirits Within I mentioned earlier). Having a reservation or two, however, does not equate having you put through the wringer, as if you were the very FOX exec that made Firefly go away. And for that I apologize, even if I weren't the one doing it. I appreciate your efforts; if for nothing else, because it's good to know there's still folks out there who give a good half gorram about the continuation of the 'Verse! Apparently you've been pushed to the losing side of this argument; but I'm still not convinced it's the wrong one. Please, continue the good work.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:24 PM

CELLARDOOR

*CellarDoor cowers behind Bytemite and Asarian as she beholds the fury of Sigmanunki's pragmatic cynicism*

Heh, loaded comment to begin with. Ok, since I'm new to the neighborhood, I honestly have no clue what other fandom's think of Browncoats, though it is quickly becoming apparent to me that we're not exactly highly regarded (lovely...). And. I am a member of www.savefirefly.org and I did send postcards in their recent *second* campaign.

I haven't seen the onslaught of the fanboys that Sigmanunki's profile mentions; heck, I probably am part of that onslaught. In that profile, I can read the yearning for days that can't be recovered, when Firefly was a closely guarded secret.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of an animated Firefly either (I agree about the nuances and subtleties being almost impossible to render through animation), but the idea and the magnitude interest me. Plus, if it did take off and go somewhere, I'd like to know that the fans had a little input! The copyright implications do unsettle me, quite a bit. Plagiarism is no joke.

Settling for small, fan-made projects can be a temporary fix, but that's not what I yearn for: more canon material. Big projects DO help me dream big. I'm grateful for the link to the EV Nova mod, and I might actually check that out, since I used to play EV Nova anyway... It's not official material though. Are we at the end of official material? I'm not ready to say we are, but I don't know that the timing is right just yet.

Heh, none of that was in order. I'm just... glad to see discussions and debates continue. I'm sorry to read the community has all but gone inactive. Thanks to the debaters for "food for thought" and thanks to Zeek, Bytemite and Asarian for helping a poor, confused newbie find her footing while listening to the commotion.

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:39 PM

>_>

I've been here about two months, to be honest, and I only found Firefly early last October.

See, I'm the new private in the trenches, the annoying one who's gonna get folks killed if I don't wise up.

I really didn't mean to come across as confrontational as it appears I have. And I don't have a problem with Sigmanunki, in fact I agree with a lot of the posts I've seen in the RWD forum.

Here, I don't, and that's fine. Sigmanunki is being rational here, been around longer than me, and has every reason for every point made in this argument.

If Sigmanunki just doesn't want to see projects fail, and that's the point we ALL agree on, I just don't want to see them fail before they're even born. And I don't think it's a waste for anyone or for resources to support higher profile projects. Could be that's naive. But that's what I want to believe.

That's all.

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:49 PM

CELLARDOOR

Well, Bytemite... I guess I'm the dangerous private right there with ya. Sorry if I mischaracterized you in any way. I'll try to step back and listen longer before putting in my oar.

Sigma IS being rational, but I sense a battle-weariness there too, all too fitting for a Browncoat in many ways. I guess an army (to continue the metaphor) needs all ranks to properly function. Kinda saddens me to think about all the dashed dreams these forums have seen. *sighs to ponder and thinks better of too much introspection late at night* Hmm... *grabs a pint of mudder's milk*

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Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:24 PM

When I spoke to GB about this he said it is basically a matter of opinion and he is very right.Some people lean one way others lean another. GB is confident he could pull it off and others are certain he can't. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Sigmanunki does make good points but we could go on arguing our different points of view forever. An assumption he sees as baseless I see as reasonable. Where he sees why animation wont be good I see why it will be. Where he sees why this isn't viable I see why it is. He has views on Buffy's story and I have different ones and other fans have even different views.

For the record I wasn't entirely happy with the last season of Buffy either but on the whole I was happy that the series ended with a conclusion. Angels I wasn't happy with but compared to Firefly,Angels ending was the best I had ever seen.

I will even be fair and give credit to Sigmanunki and instead of stating exactly what is and isn't possibly I will meet him halfway.

Animation either will or won't be good.
Some fans will be on board, some won't be on board. Some might be open minded enough to change their point of view.
There might or there might not be legal problems.
I don't know anything for a certainty and I acknowledge that.

To be honest I think Sigmanunki is closer to the mark when it comes to the liklyhood that this wont get the amount of fan support it needs. But I think that GB is closer to the mark that if this did have the fan support it will work. But thats just my opinion and everyone is entitled to one.

Something I would like to directly comment on though is when he asked how we could reach every firefly fan. There are probably a few ways but I already know the best one(that doesn't include any expense). Unfortunatly it is both extremely easy and very difficult. Ironically the power to make many thousands of Firefly fans who might be open to Firefly animation aware of it is in the hands of a few firefly fans who are likely not as open to animation.

Its good to see others are supportive of this idea but I especially liked what Asarian semi quoted and it was something similar to what I would have posted on this board myself if this idea ultimatly fails(we are only just getting started though).

Quote:
"Apparently you've been pushed to the losing side of this argument; but I'm still not convinced it's the wrong one."

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Friday, March 13, 2009 5:35 AM

I think a part of the weariness of the community is that we've seen lots of people come in with some idea of how to save firefly. A lot of the ideas are repeats. Others haven't done even the most basic of research.

I've been around for a long time and I haven't seen any serious discussions about animated Firefly. If there was talk going on around the time of the movie I probably didn't notice because I was more concerned with the movie being a smash hit.

Personally I like the idea of animated Firefly. I've seen animated shows that are done well. If Firefly was done in a similar fashion I think it could run through at least 3 seasons and get us some closure. IMO that's worth a shot.

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Monday, March 16, 2009 10:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Fair enough, his style might be relevant(I believe you that he brought it up before). But it also might translate well into firefly and I have yet to see his style in action so I can't make a personal opinion on wether I would like to see Firefly 'similar' to his past work.

Style changes the whole tone and mood of things. So, it most certainly is relevant to this project. I'm surprised that a clip from a project of his isn't floating around. There was the last time.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

You are probably right when it comes to copyright law. But as I said, I don't think it is a fan concern. If GB thinks he can make some animation mock ups than thats his concern and who am I to doubt him. I am sure if Universal or whoever contact him or he realises that he can't safely make mock ups then he will be the first to withdraw his offer.

I wasn't necessarily talking about the mockups. It's that he's talking about mockups that will lead to a completed project. I'm absolutely certain that Fox/Universal will have something to say about that.

Now, if he was even remotely humble and said, "If there's enough fan support I'll do some mockups. Then if the support is still there, we'll do a bit of a demo and take it to Fox/Universal to see what they think of it." That might be acceptable. But, since all companies I know are very secretive about the projects they are working on until they get the ok from the 'powers that be', I'm still quite dubious about the matter. In fact, since the mockups would be considered derivative works, he's still taking a grand risk. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he got a DMCA takedown notice and talks never happened because of the arrogance of what he's "confident" in.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Of course this concept will need permission. I have already taken that into account as I am sure GB has also. I already recognised and I am sure he has already taken into account that the best way to get permission is to 'try' and generate fan support for something. If the support is there, then the permission will be soon to follow.

That last sentence should be completed by, if Fox/Universal like it as well. After all, there was fan support for Firefly when it was on the air and that didn't matter one little bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

I havnt seen many fans state that they wont watch firefly animation and I am not an ostridge. I agnowledge that there is a broader picture I just recognise that as a fan it is not my concern because it is not something I can influence. I will support the most viable way to get firefly back on the air and if it dies despite having the required support then I will at least know we did our best.

The long game is our best chance to get more FF/S. Grasping at pipe dream projects just makes the community look high maintenance.

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=35378#647869

But, I should also say that you haven't seen many fans say that they would watch an animated series either. That being because there aren't many fans around any more.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

I wasnt even aware of the Firefly MMO and didn't even recognise what it was when I saw it in your post(i just had a quick look then). So is it a certainty that the exact same thing will happen to Firefly animation if it generates support? I am not aware of what happened with the computer game and would be interested in how this translates into a show for a tv program getting canned. Seriously I just wish to know your opinion because you have already looked into this.

CK said a bit about that in the above link. But, effectively the word is that the lawyers killed it.

The short story is that Fox gave out the license to Mulitverse to make a MMO in the style of FF. So, they started looking for a development studio and apparently found one. I say apparently because there was some allusion to work being done on it, but no official announcement. But, Serenity being based in the same 'verse, Universal sent its lawyers to dispute rights. It ended in stalemate and the project got effectively killed. Multiverse has moved on to develop a Buffy MMO. Much to the dismay of many a people.

In other words, it's all about money. One won't let the other profit off the property with them being left out. This will be the same thing for a TV show, animated or otherwise, or anything else that would stand to make a fair chunk of change.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

I think I would be insane if I actually did expect anything. All I am doing is hoping and making the most imformed choices I can. All I know is if fans do something as simple as joining a facebook group, which is basically just a glorified petition then we 'might' get something.

Have you seen how many petitions are out there? Companies don't care about them. They care about the bottom line. Purchasing FF/S merchandise says volumes more than clicking something. Give them a plan that guarantees at least a 10% ROI and they'll consider it. But, just consider.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Might being the operative word because if 50,000 firefly fans took fifteen minutes out of their lives then we would see that either it is enough interest to get a response from the big wigs or it isn't. Seiously what do I or any other fan have to lose for just joining a facebook group.

Nothing. But, you also have nothing to gain.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

I don't want to see a small Firefly project. I want to see a big firefly project that joss is behind and lots of 'proffesional' effort is put into.

That is being greedy. You're also assuming that Joss will be involved in this project. Are you sure that's a good assumption?

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

I am not getting excited because it is a certainty. I am getting excited because I never thought it was possible to see more real Firefly again and now I see a chance again and I have yet been presented with information to a certaintly to contradict it(I will of course be heartbroken 'again' if this happens).

Considering your resistance to what I (and others) are saying, I doubt there is information that would give you cause to give up on this project.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

I never said other projects are not worth work. You where the one that neglected to add that this project could be worth some work too. You might not believe in it but I think it is at least worth the effort to try and see if it will work so you can confirm what you already know. I believe that all firefly related projects that have a chance are worth all the fans support. That way the most viable one will take off.

What I don't think you're seeing is that this community has very limited resources. Spreading ourselves to every viable project (and lets be honest, every project is viable to one degree or another), would spread us too thin. Then all projects would fail. What's needed is a risk analysis to see if the project has an honest chance. My criteria isn't perfect, but it's quite good, IMO, and certainly better than nothing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

You might be right about the fans reputation. I withdraw my assumptions. I just thought we where good about making our love for the show heard. Thats all I meant.

But, it's cashy money that companies care about, not love for the show.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Getting towards the end of your post I am getting the impresion that I offended you somehow. I apoligise again for my snide remark and also for doubting your knowledge and using caps to do it. I promise to take better care to act more mature in my future posts.

It'd be good to do that anyway, and thanks, but you didn't necessarily offend me. Perhaps just irked me a bit. And when I write such long posts, I tend to go over them many times to check for mistakes and tone, etc. Sometimes, and it seems that this is the case here, I come off more aggressive, or whatnot, than intended. I try to watch that, but sometimes, especially when I'm tired, things don't get re-worded properly. Sorry for that. But, looking at the clock, it's probably the same for this and the below posts as well. Sorry...

Quote:
Originally posted by Ads:

Also, its a different ball game now compared to when this was brought up last time. And as I said, why not take fifteen minutes to join facebook and see what happens. If you are right then the answer will be nothing.

I will check and see if you are right and maybe you are. More specifically though I will just ask GB if he is blowing smoke up our arses and see what is his response.

Well, considering that only ~300 people have joined that group so far, and considering how these number grow when there is real true interest, I'd say that I am right.

But, you're right that the situation is different now. We're in a time when the hailmary short term goal is no longer viable. It's the long game that matters now. That might not be the situation that you were hoping for, but it's the one we're in.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, March 16, 2009 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I can't believe that fanfic is being compared to a professional effort to bring the Firefly story back. Cannon is so much more appealing than a fan work IMO.

Not compared to directly in the way you are implying. You're making assumptions about who is going to be involved in the project, the level of quality, etc. Baseless assumptions.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I also think it's ridiculous that there's supposedly some impossible roadblock put up by Universal and Fox. Did you hear about these comic book thingies? Apparently the rights got worked out. I'm not too worried about it happening again.

Comics make peanuts. TV shows on the other hand make a fair bit more. That's what makes it a very different thing when it comes to the lawyers. You heard about that MMO thing, right? The reasons why it got killed, right?

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

All in all there's nothing here that is going to hurt the fans. If you would watch the show join the group. If you don't like it then don't bother.

Actually, yes there is:

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=35378#647869

Btw, CK is a creative professional living in LA.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, March 16, 2009 10:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

i.e. hey, maybe he's working for Fox again because he was promised some Firefly opportunities.

In an interview Joss stated that he had lunch with Eliza and she mentioned a deal she had with Fox. Joss had an idea which was Dollhouse and wanted to work with Eliza again. So, they/he pitched the show and it went from there. There has been exactly zero even rumours about a FF/S link. So, I would thank you to keep these "conspiracy theories" to yourself.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

And I guess I don't understand why someone can't just offer both companies a cut of the profits.

Um, because business doesn't work that way? Because, the lawyers need to work out every detail and fight with the other owner of the license to try to get the better deal? Because, not every show will be good and in fact, can sully the reputation of the franchise making it even more difficult to profit off of in the future? Etc, etc, etc. Maybe those might have something to do with it?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

@ Sigmanunki: Fanwork, even the good stuff, isn't official, isn't Joss, Nathan, and crew.

Neither will an animated series.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I like fanwork, but proposing that it is the best way to advance the unfinished story lines of Firefly and Serenity, while at the same time decrying that all people are willing to do is post blogs or join facebook groups or give lip-service to ambitious fanprojects doomed to fail, well, that doesn't sit right with me.

It not sitting right with you doesn't make it not a fact.

The situation is that the size of this fan community is dwindling. The situation is that the fans here only latch on to big projects that are pipe dreams. The situation is that the fans here have historically shown to only to post on forums or at most send a letter or two as an "effort" to get FF/S back. Etc, etc, etc. That's just not good enough. Not by a long shot.

You want people to stick around after finding out about FF/S? You know what needs to happen? Multiple projects going at any given time that have a high probability of successful completion. Not only that, but a tonne of material already completed that will keep people interested and around until the ongoing projects complete whatever they are doing.

Do you honestly think that Fox or Universal is going to do that for us? Well, it's been quite some time since the last thing came out. So, I have to ask: How's the waiting game/waiting for people to do something for you, working for you? From where I sit, it really isn't working all that well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I support fanwork because these people are authors and artists I respect and I enjoy what they create, not because I think they're all that's potentially left of future Firefly/Serenity. I enjoy their work because it's good, not because they're a lifeline to grasp at and it's all we got.

Right now and for the foreseeable future, it is all we got. That's fact. You coming to terms with that is a whole other story though.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

By the way, which of those categories you mention did the Serenity movie fall under? Small project? Not many people involved? No special skills necessary? Not ambitious? Not a lot of funding?

Um, completely different situation maybe? Like, you know, Joss was involved then. Like the fan community was galvanised in that singular task at that point. Like, there was a lot more of us around not to mentioning active then. Like, the economic situation wasn't in the toilet then. Etc, etc, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

You seem to think big ideas are bad ideas, that for some reason when a project fizzles out, it also kills hope. I think the big ideas are what give us hope. You say that those hopes are doomed and shouldn't be embraced, I say we should embrace those hopes, or it's a self-fulfilling prophesy that big projects will fail.

There is a difference between hope and false hope. I suggest you become familiar with the difference.

Also, it isn't a self-fulfilling prophecy to say that big(ger) projects will fail when every big project has failed. If you don't know history, you will be doomed to repeat it.

Point of fact, smaller projects have a much higher success rate. Why? Because, the time-line to completion isn't as long. Because, the burnout factor isn't there nearly as much. Because, it requires less from the community. Because, it requires less people coming in to replace turnover because of people's real lives getting in the way of the projects completion, etc. Etc, etc, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. And maybe you have the experience/knowledge on your side, and maybe support for new ambitious projects has fallen off since the movie. You point out problems with the animation style, acceptance, professionalism, legal rights, and audience that are all valid concerns, issues that would have to be addressed as part of the process to produce these projects.

But I can't just dismiss the new ambitious projects just on account of their being ambitious. You can ask me not to, and I understand why you're asking me not to, but I can't.

My greater experience/knowledge than yours is an understatement. At least based on what you've been saying.

But, what you're not seeing is that while the smaller projects are just that, smaller, they can be combined to create an overall larger project. As in, there is nothing wrong with creating a small project that is readily expandable to something much greater should it catch on. In other words, creating a small project that is complete on its own, yet has the possibility of being but a piece in a larger project, isn't out of the question. In fact, it would be desirable. But, here's the rub. Projects like that aren't easy to do. They take a lot of time and energy to complete and that's something that the FF/S community has historically shown it isn't willing to do.

At any rate, if you don't want to see reality, that's your business. But, I'm just hoping that one day, it'll get through your head that these ambitious projects are too ambitious. One must work with the resources at ones disposal. Stretching those resources is risky. But, going well beyond them, as these ambitious projects always do, is dooming the project.

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I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, March 16, 2009 10:31 PM