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Originally posted by BrownBug:
aicn.com is reporting that Joss is meeting with the head of FX about new TV projects. The guy apparently loves him! Sorry i cant post the link but im on my phone. Would love it to be a new firefly but quite a few of the cast members r tied up. Would they give it up for a new Firefly. Im not sure V will last but Castle and Chuck r renewed are they not?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
There is a difference between the corporate parent, and the people running individual networks. Besides, the underlying point is that cable has lower expectations for ratings.

And despite the love many have for demonizing Fox - they canned the show because it wasn't pulling ratings high enough to make it a viable show. They're in the business of making money, not placating and/or screwing Joss fans just because.

There is, like it or not, a ceiling on his fanbase. The fanbase is big enough to make a cable show a hit - but not a network one.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Originally posted by Storymark:
... despite the love many have for demonizing Fox - they canned the show because it wasn't pulling ratings high enough to make it a viable show. They're in the business of making money, not placating and/or screwing Joss fans just because.

There is, like it or not, a ceiling on his fanbase. The fanbase is big enough to make a cable show a hit - but not a network one.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
And don't forget, they could also do miniseries, AND show the episodes of Firefly AND the Big Damn Movie as tie-ins. Their geek cred would thus be strong... :)

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yes, Fox did indeed cancel Firefly AND Dollhouse. But you know what else, people? Fox ALSO was the only network to BUY Firefly or Dollhouse, and the only way we ever got to see them in the first place. Nobody ever commends them for that, do they?

And they took a chance on Firefly because Joss had a couple of hits on his hands with Buffy and Angel. BUT - and isn't there always a "but"? - remember that what was a hit for the fledgling WB network wouldn't have qualified as a hit for Fox, CBS, ABC, or NBC. As has been pointed out, there's a large gulf of difference between the ratings required for a hit on a major network and what passes for a hit on cable.

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Originally posted by peacekeeper:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
And don't forget, they could also do miniseries, AND show the episodes of Firefly AND the Big Damn Movie as tie-ins. Their geek cred would thus be strong... :)

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If I had my way, it would be to re-run the original 14 eps,which would tie in to a brand new 8 eps that would finish the series off as originally intended.(and I realise there would have to be some explanation of the age difference).Then re-run the BDM, and then------????

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Originally posted by Zeek:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yes, Fox did indeed cancel Firefly AND Dollhouse. But you know what else, people? Fox ALSO was the only network to BUY Firefly or Dollhouse, and the only way we ever got to see them in the first place. Nobody ever commends them for that, do they?

And they took a chance on Firefly because Joss had a couple of hits on his hands with Buffy and Angel. BUT - and isn't there always a "but"? - remember that what was a hit for the fledgling WB network wouldn't have qualified as a hit for Fox, CBS, ABC, or NBC. As has been pointed out, there's a large gulf of difference between the ratings required for a hit on a major network and what passes for a hit on cable.

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The way I hear the story told Fox was really hyped up about Joss's success with Buffy and Angel. Since Joss was working with Fox Studios, Fox Network was giving right of first refusal to buy anything Joss came up with. So, they bought Firefly on the Buffy and Angel hype without any concern about what they were actually buying. Then they got the pilot and were not at all impressed. They started giving Joss notes and getting him to alter the show. Sorry but I don't see that as something that should be praised. They were mindless fools.

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The Dollhouse story seems to somewhat follow the same mold. They didn't like Firefly, but the DVDs had a decent success for them. They were willing to give Joss another chance and this time they were basing it on Firefly's DVD success.

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If Fox wants to be praised it would sure help if they'd look at a show and decide if they want it. Not a director. Not a producer. Not the writers. Not an actor or actress. Look at the show itself and base decisions on that.

If they had done that of course they likely would have passed on Firefly. My hope and assumption is that some other network would have seen the potential and picked it up.

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Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Good points by all regarding our BDH, but Zeek makes for a strong case.

Fox saw dollar signs based the success of Buffy and Angel rather than look at the show to see if they wanted to support it (I'm pretty sure the same is true for JJ Abrams with Fringe).

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Yes, Fox did buy the rights to the TV show Firefly and put it on air in the first place but they absolutely threw a monkey wrench into the pot and screwed things up royally. With Dollhouse, they had Eliza under contract and, well the rest is history. So I agree with Zeek that Fox went shopping with their eyes closed and then complained when they didn't like the color of the sweater they bought.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
The botched their handling of it, yes. But I don't see how this changes the fact that we wouldn't have had the show AT ALL had they not given it a chance - even if it was a slim chance.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
This is just incorrect, though. They didn't come to Joss at all. Dushku had a development deal with them, and they were excersizing it - but they let her choose her showrunner. She chose Joss, who then came up with the concept just for her.

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Originally posted by Zeek:
I really doubt Eliza could have made up anything she wanted and had a guaranteed greenlight.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
And yes, it's speculation that it wouldn't have been picked up otherwise - just as it's speculation that it would have. But my speculation is based on the patterns shown by the other networks, and not on wishful thinking.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
You really, really don't like people disagreeing with you, do you? Because you keep throwing out stupid straw man arguments every time.

When Buffy was picked up, Forever Knight had just finished it's run (and thus was airing while Buffy was being developed). The Hunger was on then as well, as well as the British vampire series Ultraviolet. Also factor in that this was the tail end of the mid-90's vampire craze kicked off by Interview With The Vampire, AND Buffy being a well-known (if not well loved) movie, and only a fool (or someone who runs his mouth without doing their homework) would argue there were no other vampire shows at the time. When Angel was picked up.... Buffy was on the air.

As a matter of fact, there has been at least one vampire-related TV series on the air every year for the last two or three decades, with the odd non-vampire year snuck in on rare occasion. So, vampire shows do have a fairly solid track record. And just to head you off, yes, there has also been a space-based show of some sort on for that timeframe, but A) virtually none of them were network based (whereas most of the vampire ones, save FK, were) and B) almost all of them were based on existing properties, and thus had an established fanbase to draw from (which I'll point out again - Buffy had going for it to a degree).


I didn't say it was impossible (that would be your straw man). I said it was unlikely - and as I pointed out, I'm gauging this on precedent; which is not proof, but it is a better indicator that "because Zeek really really really thinks so". Precedent can be broken, but in the absence of other evidence, that's all there is.

So, before you go attacking my logic (with nonsensical comebacks to boot), try applying a little of your own. Because you've presented no logically reasoned argument - other than YOU'RE sure someone woulda bought it.... just because you are. Sorry, but your gut is hardly that compelling as evidence.

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Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:


My argument has to do more with a network giving it's shows support and backing. FF was treated like a bastard child; what with preempting, poor scheduling and creative meddling. It's been said that Firefly was a show ahead of it's time, not for us - the true fans, but, as far as I'm concerned, for those Fox execs who, by their actions, had no clue.

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Originally posted by Zeek:

I have problems with people who think thier opinions are the only valid ones.

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I never said anything about network TV. So, the example is pretty much valid. Thanks for backing up that there were few vampire shows on the air just like there were few scifi shows.

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Originally posted by Zeek:
I'm not going to go waste my time researching the number of scifi shows on the air at the time firefly was being considered. It's a waste of time. I don't even think it was a big consideration in the network's mind to begin with. The evidence I provided is Fox was the first network to have a chance to air Firefly and they took it. When you go 1 out of 1 that's very strong odds. Nothing you've said suggests that the very next studio to get a chance at "a new Joss Whedon show" would have passed.

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So, if you're not convinced your opinion is the only correct one are you saying that's it perfectly valid for a person to believe that Firefly would have been picked up if Fox had passed on it?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
So, flip side - can you admit that just maybe, based on all the trends and evidence, that no-one else would have picked it up?

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Originally posted by Zeek:

Yes, it's possible. Just incredibly unlikely.

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We saw one network interpret the trends and they interpreted them the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.

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Originally posted by OPPYH:


If Firefly were a first run syndicated show(Hercules, Xena) we wouldn't be having this conversation. It would have lasted 7 seasons easy.

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