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Originally posted by Bytemite:
...my thinking is, in the Core, that same feeling might not be attached, or people might not take it as seriously...Maybe the problem with Inara is that she has some kind of core world "sex isn't very important, it's just for fun" mindset. So to her, maybe it's not the sex that's important, maybe for Inara, sex DOES fit into a list of more vanilla comfort activities. For Inara, maybe it's the RITUALS associated with the sex that's important, rituals that come from being a companion.

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Ehm... I have to disagree with you on the first part, about Mal thinking ahead. Mal has always struck me as a pretty impulsive, "flying by the seat of his pants and change course on the turn of a dime" kind of guy. He says and does PLENTY of things that it seems to me he's kicking himself about later, even if they seem necessary at the time (and sometimes they aren't). Look at his terse comments to Kaylee in Shindig, or in the movie, after they leave Haven, and he goes to the shuttle and kind of just pauses there to absorb what he's done. He probably did have to do this, but turning Serenity into a Reaver ship and defiling their friends is a very "shoot the poor diseased dog" kind of thing. The thing is, a lot of his ideas are good ideas, so even though he has absolutely TERRIBLE luck, he's able to adjust on the fly and save as many people as possible, which makes him a good captain. Mal isn't the chessmaster, thinking several moves ahead. That's River.

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If it's not about jealousy, why does it upset Mal so much? And why should it hurt Inara?

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And also, is this really something Mal does? Hurt people he cares about in a pre-calculated way? He hurts them, no question about, and insults them, but it always seems to me like he was just being insensitive, speaking off the cuff, or that he was mad and not really in control of what he was saying. If it's pre-calculated to rub in Inara's face and hurt her, isn't that a little sadistic?

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This is quite a bit different from telling Simon that Kaylee's dead and terrifying the poor boy into thinking he and his sister are a few minutes from airlock city. That was a mean joke. I don't really think either he or Inara thought his night with Nandi was funny.

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And it's almost like you're suggesting Inara needs to be hurt to be shown the error of her ways... Almost like she deserves it?

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Very interesting Som. When I first read your post I thought, "hmmmm.... that's pretty good!" But the more I think about it the more I think Mal just wanted to f*ck. In fact, he's just that much of a clod that he DOESN'T think those kinds of things through, which only ads to Inara's pain. "He didn't even have the decency to think about how it would affect me!"

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
So despite what she's facing, it doesn't lend any sort of sensitivity or consideration to Inara's behaviour, which in general is clueless, naive, selfish, and immature. Meanwhile, Mal is right about everything he says and does. And he doesn't get jealous?

We really do have different takes on all of this. ^_^'

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Okay, so, I'm just trying to understand here. So, this is Mal's motivation for having sex with Nandi, that he secretly or not-so-secretly wants Inara to find out, so that she'll break down and cry over what a hypocrite she is.

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And then leave him. Because he's planned it all out ahead of time. And this is what he wanted and intended?

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how can it be plausible that she practices religious rituals - important - and has sex with cients - highly not important - both as part of the same work? Isn't this what chrisisall's question is about?

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I prefer the power of someone like Patience. :D

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1. The companion thing did bug me, mostly because the 'sex is power' thing bugs me. Sex isn't power for men, why does it always end up that way for women? And what does 'sex is power" mean for older women who aren't as sexually attractive? I prefer the power of someone like Patience. :D

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2. With the job title being "Companion" there is a lot more than just sex. A companion isn't trying to be "friends" with someone, that requires the client knowing and caring about the companion as a person. Rather, the companion is being a friend to the client...always on the giving side, never the receiving. They are listening, comforting, pleasing the client It's all about the client. That is no friendship. Can attachments/fondness form? Absolutely, but it is still very one-sided and therefore not friendship. IMO, it's the reason Inara is so offended by Atherton's offer of keeping her. He is not interested in her as a companion but simply as a whore. Inara kidded herself into believing that he cared for her as a person. When she tries to through it back at Mal, it falls flat because he knows they don't care for her on that level.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Pizmobeach wrote:

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Very interesting Som. When I first read your post I thought, "hmmmm.... that's pretty good!" But the more I think about it the more I think Mal just wanted to f*ck. In fact, he's just that much of a clod that he DOESN'T think those kinds of things through, which only ads to Inara's pain. "He didn't even have the decency to think about how it would affect me!"

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No Mal has an old fashioned honour. It's not just about knocking boots. Look at the way he did his level best to resist Saffron in 'Our Mrs Reynolds' (In fact a little too much! If that episode had any realism he'd have been doing the whoopee in zero gravity with Saffron in a nanosecond!!!!) but Mal has honour.

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So you think hurting each other is intentional on both their parts?

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When Inara leaves, and regains the upper hand, does that negate the sympathy you say you had for her when she was crying about Mal and Nandi?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Mincingbeast: It's because what Mal and Nandi had, Inara can't ever have herself. Or at least that's what I think.

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If Inara took an attitude towards Companioning that it was all a fun, harmless charade, and had a sense of humour about it, I would like her better.

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Saffron appeared to be an innocent castaway, nearly a slave that was left on the ship, whereas Nandi was an Ex-Companion, very different. There's respect and hospitality for the wayward stranger and then there's LUST for a Companion that has training.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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2. With the job title being "Companion" there is a lot more than just sex. A companion isn't trying to be "friends" with someone, that requires the client knowing and caring about the companion as a person. Rather, the companion is being a friend to the client...always on the giving side, never the receiving. They are listening, comforting, pleasing the client It's all about the client. That is no friendship. Can attachments/fondness form? Absolutely, but it is still very one-sided and therefore not friendship. IMO, it's the reason Inara is so offended by Atherton's offer of keeping her. He is not interested in her as a companion but simply as a whore. Inara kidded herself into believing that he cared for her as a person. When she tries to throw it back at Mal, it falls flat because he knows they don't care for her on that level.

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Now this I agree with. The sad thing is, I think Inara does think people are her friends, because this IS a way in which she is naive.

But that doesn't mean that's how it is with companions, or that companions are offering anything more than what's on the package. I think that's a personality issue with Inara more than it is her profession, because of the point about objectivity I brought up earlier, I doubt companions are encouraged to make friends with clients.

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Anyway, I never saw Inara viewing her clients as anything more than that...although I do think she takes some pride in their attachment to her. Afterall, attachment would be a sign of a job well done and who doesn't want to take pride in their work. :D

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Som: I have to say, if your interpretation of Mal and Inara's characters are correct, and they really are that petty, shallow, and spiteful, I can't say I really like them much or have much sympathy for them.

I should rewatch the series and try to see it from your perspective. I might be surprised to find myself agreeing, and start to hate the two of them.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

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So you think hurting each other is intentional on both their parts?

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Yes - This is a Joss show after all, and he frequently shows the ugly side of people falling in love.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I dunno, I can still see and respect Inara as a business women. I think she drove a hard bargain in Out of Gas.

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Anyway, I never saw Inara viewing her clients as anything more than that...although I do think she takes some pride in their attachment to her. Afterall, attachment would be a sign of a job well done and who doesn't want to take pride in their work. :D

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That seems pretty unethical to me. Pride in manipulating people?

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I can agree that at times, both Mal and Inara intentionally hurt each other. Mal calling her whore, Inara calling him petty thief, etc. But I cannot believe that Mal slept with Nandi to hurt Inara. If he wanted to hurt her, he would've slept with Saffron.

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Mal slept with Nandi because there was romantic lighting, imminent danger, fine rice wine, good company and a willing partner. How many untethered (and sadly, tethered) adults wouldn't get busy in that scenario?

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One thing I might agree with you on, however: Inara finally realizes what it's like for Mal when she sleeps with clients. But that only holds true if she believes that Mal has real feelings for her, rather than just attraction/curiosity. I think it's more likely, though, that she just realizes the depth of her feelings for Mal and has to run away from them, knowing that they can never really be together.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Som: Don't worry about it. This is good. I joined in this fray to try to understand other people's perspectives and see if I find something new to explore. This definitely qualifies.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RugBug:

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I can agree that at times, both Mal and Inara intentionally hurt each other. Mal calling her whore, Inara calling him petty thief, etc. But I cannot believe that Mal slept with Nandi to hurt Inara. If he wanted to hurt her, he would've slept with Saffron.

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Fair point. I think hurt was a by product of his action, rather than the intent. The intent was maybe to inform Inara of how her actions as a companion hurts him [Mal].

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or maybe I'm not a huge fan of Gina's. (don't hate me). :D

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she was the character I liked the least, possibly because I identify with her the most...

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Again, Saffron would've worked if the intent was to show Inara what it felt like to be on the other side. Now, I wouldn't put it past Mal to come up with this as an after thought 'she does the same thing to me all the time' justification for hurting her. But proceeding with the action on that intent...I just can't believe it. I would have to loathe Mal...and I can't do that.

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Mal is not tempted by just anyone. That's Jayne and his 'willin' women'. Mal needs more than willing, he needs a connection. He found that with Nandi. Saffron was willing, but there was no connection, although she did an excellent job of getting him to the point that connection or not, he would've had a hard time saying no.

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I think we WANT to believe that someone loves us back...but that most of the time, we play the "does he/doesn't he" dance, and which side we end up on depends on the day..and his recent actions. Inara has enough confidence and experience to know that Mal is attracted to her has some feelings but the depth of them is unknown. And in a way, feelings are trivial to the situation, because Inara is the one with the power. Mal cannot be with her if she's a companion but he won't ask her to give up her career. Inara won't give up her career for him. They are at an impasse. She can't fool herself any longer so she needs to remove herself.

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Been there, done that. Have the T-shirt. (which could cloud my opinions. :D)

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Originally posted by kpo:

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or maybe I'm not a huge fan of Gina's. (don't hate me). :D

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lol don't worry, it wasn't a leading question. But did you mean what you said with:

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she was the character I liked the least, possibly because I identify with her the most...

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Not sure if you were being mysterious (which is cool) or a mistype...?

Heads should roll

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RugBug:

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Again, Saffron would've worked if the intent was to show Inara what it felt like to be on the other side. Now, I wouldn't put it past Mal to come up with this as an after thought 'she does the same thing to me all the time' justification for hurting her. But proceeding with the action on that intent...I just can't believe it. I would have to loathe Mal...and I can't do that.

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No because Saffron as far as Mal knew was not a companion. This was the necessary element that made Nandi so significant to highlight his point. The other thing against Saffron being 'used' like that is that actually Mal could see Inara was hurt from when they were all in the cargo bay. So sleeping with Saffrom was irrelevant. Also at that point Mal and Inara are still trading petty blows with one another. By the time Hearts of Gold comes along more time has passed between them without a resolve - as you say an impass - so tougher measures were necessary.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

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Mal is not tempted by just anyone. That's Jayne and his 'willin' women'. Mal needs more than willing, he needs a connection. He found that with Nandi. Saffron was willing, but there was no connection, although she did an excellent job of getting him to the point that connection or not, he would've had a hard time saying no.

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Yes true. Saffron did get him to talk about his mother though

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Originally posted by Zeek:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
It comes from the idea that I wouldn't want my daughter to be one, yet I would have been tempted to use the service from someone else's daughter in my 20's. The inherent hypocracy there is the source of the discomfort, I conjure.

And yeah, this culture is whack when it comes to sex roles.

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I totally agree with this. Which I think you can take a step further and point it right back at men. What wouldn't we want our daughter or sister in such a profession? To me it's because we know the male mindset all too well. There are plenty of men who would treat those women as nothing but a piece of meat. Most guys probably feel some guilt thinking that they've at the very least fantasied about a purely physical encounter without a single thought about a woman's personality or feelings. So, for guys it probably all comes back to self guilt really. That's my guess at least.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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If Inara took an attitude towards Companioning that it was all a fun, harmless charade, and had a sense of humour about it, I would like her better.

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Now here's an interesting thought...

It seems to me like Inara is only defensive about her profession to Mal and people who belittle it because it's her source of independence.

It also seems to me like Inara is someone who has layers. So what if she DOES have a sense of humour about it with people who aren't constantly putting her down and disrespecting her?

Like, maybe to the people who are jerks about it, she acts the way she does to keep up the mystique?

But for someone like Jayne, asking if she has some funny whoring stories, she doesn't have to act all offended. Though she does have to respect her clients privacy.

You comment makes me wonder, do we really know how Inara feels about her job? I don't think it's negative, otherwise she wouldn't defend it, but what if she doesn't really take it seriously?

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Originally posted by mal4prez:

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Originally posted by Platonist:
mal4prez, I suddenly feel like the boy in the Parade who calls out that the Emperor has no clothes on because I can’t help feeling that a Companion is a euphemism for a sex worker.

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I think the show presents something different which you aren't seeing. You're interpreting things to fit your view - there never was any suggestion that Inara couldn't get her own ticket to the ball, for instance. You aren't allowing for everything that is presented.

I'll agree that this Guild thing is not something that can exist today, or even in the near future, but we're talking about 500 years from now. The whole point is that things - including the human mentality - will be different.

ETA: Also, we see Inara do much much more than have sex and drink tea! You might not see all those others things if you're excessively focused... I must admit, it is easy to get tunnel vision with Inara on screen. Even for a hetero female. :)

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And, I too, would love for women to have power by controlling their own sexuality as they desire, in the future, but I think it could have been better served and achieved by making prostitution legal, organized, accepted, and controlled by the Guild without all the unnecessary endowments of high status and social esteem which seem to have been tagged on to convince us that what Inara does is valid and valuable to maintain the social structure and culture of core worlds who embrace enlightenment and moral integrity.

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Sure, the writers of the show gave her all that status to force the viewer to reexamine our assumptions about someone who would exchange sex for money. But again, that's not all there is to it. Inara wins respect and high status because there is more to her. Cause and effect: the cause is her skills, the effect is her status. Not the other way around.

Or do you really not see the skills? Is the sexual aspect that blinding?

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You have to admit, it’s a little gullible to assume that any profession in the future, especially sex work, oh, sorry Companioning, would be held in that high esteem, when none are today.

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No, I don't have to admit that! In fact, I think it's a little silly to assume that the rules that apply today will still hold in 500 years. Again - look at how different everything was 100 years ago, only 1/5 of that time!

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And, any educated person can retire and do whatever they want; some marginally educated people can retire and do whatever they want… waves to our own esteemed Arnold.

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I don't see how this applies. It's not about Inara retiring and doing what she wants. It's about a Companion - any Companion - having certain skills as a result of her training that would be valued by those who don't have a hang-up over her sexual history.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Originally posted by kpo:

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how can it be plausible that she practices religious rituals - important - and has sex with cients - highly not important - both as part of the same work? Isn't this what chrisisall's question is about?

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Joss was trying to FORCE (my caps) the idea that Companionship is inherently noble...No, the best way I have to think of the Companion service is like 'Goddess for hire'...And that's quite a service. But ultimately it's illusory isn't it? It's a mere human woman - just a very pretty one; who has undergone years of training to be refined, classy, graceful; who has learnt psychological techniques to put you at ease etc. - in short, knows everything to provide that 'goddess' experience...but it's an illusion, and money changes hands.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aliasse: because even though sex may be part of the rituals, in Inara's mind it could be that the ritual is what's important, not the sex. For example, clearly she had sex with Fess Higgins in some sort of coming of age THING, right? And obviously, Magristrate Higgins thought the sex was what's important. But what does Inara emphasize? TEA!

Maybe there's other stuff that happened with Fess that in Inara's mind is more what made Fess a man than the sex, you know? And maybe that's how it is with her other clients and any other rituals she might be performing.

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But I thought your point was that people in the Core in general, not just Inara, might have developed a 'sex is above all a recreational activity' belief. In emphasising the tea aspect of her encounter with Fess Higgins, she may be betraying HER own beliefs about the relative unimportance of sex, but that doesn't show that other people think this way too.

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Originally posted by Aliasse:
I agree that Joss was trying to force an idea but at the same time he didn't back away from showing the hour glass in the pilot - the goddess experience is time-limited and when your time's up you're out.

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P.S. I shall be freely plagiarising chunks of this post of yours for fanfics to come, if that's all right with you mate :)

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Originally posted by Aliasse:

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aliasse: because even though sex may be part of the rituals, in Inara's mind it could be that the ritual is what's important, not the sex. For example, clearly she had sex with Fess Higgins in some sort of coming of age THING, right? And obviously, Magristrate Higgins thought the sex was what's important. But what does Inara emphasize? TEA!

Maybe there's other stuff that happened with Fess that in Inara's mind is more what made Fess a man than the sex, you know? And maybe that's how it is with her other clients and any other rituals she might be performing.

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But I thought your point was that people in the Core in general, not just Inara, might have developed a 'sex is above all a recreational activity' belief. In emphasising the tea aspect of her encounter with Fess Higgins, she may be betraying HER own beliefs about the relative unimportance of sex, but that doesn't show that other people think this way too.

Also, the tea is a distancing, respectifying (yes, that's a word ahem) thing - 'I'm not just a whore, I do really good tea ritual too and that proves it.'

Could Inara have done what she did for FH without being a Companion?

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