Politics of Joss by dreamtrove

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Politics of Joss

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:42
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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:27 AM

I happened to run into this on Daily Kos

http://dailykos.com/story/2005/9/29/22437/2481

Seems the left winger is a fan.

While we may, and undoubtedly do, disagree on a whole heck of a lot of things, I think it's interesting that the politics of Joss, which seems a strong influence in all of his shows, can be interesting to both the left and the right.

I have a theory about this, of course, so here it comes:

In the beginning, there were two political schools of thought, the federalists and the anti-fedealists. The federalists represented the idea that order be kept by strong central government. That faction then became renamed the democrat-republican party, and the opposition died away. The DRP split into democrats and republicans over the indian question in the 1820s, and we've been at it ever since. I've seen a lot of left/right speculation of Joss, but here's my theory.

He's essentially an anti-federalist. The libertarian/anarachist characters represent a central disagreement with the federalist viewpoint. This is why the ideas are politically interesting to both the left and the right, because they are outside of the left/right debate.

Questions? Comments?

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:58 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I try REALLY hard not let real world issues or views of our BDH's ( and even other Browncoats ) affect how I see the Whedon 'Verse. It can't be ignored, however, that Mal and his like represent a sort of futuristic, idealistic Southern view, where as the Alliance is viewed as not much more than Damn Yankees.

I am from the South. I was raised in a Methodist (but not overly so), 2 parent house with fairly conservative views. As I've grown up, I lost the religiosity, but kept many of my conservitive/ libertarian views. I like Mal's independent mindset, of not being under the foot of no one. Also very positive is his stance on not letting anyone be owned by anyone else. Mal loathes folk who try to own others, which plays havoc w/ his feelings toward Inara ( Shindig ).

So, it's a bit curious that the Alliance is all high and mighty on keeping people in check, but yet allows there to be such a thing as Companions. I could go on an on about all this, but let me sum up.

Many see those who strive for being independent as mere anarchist. I am not one of those. Libertarians, for the most part ( here in the U.S. ) favor a healthy central Gov't, but one that hold's true to the powers and construct of the original U.S. Constitution. You know, The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. kind of stuff.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:36 AM

STAKETHELURK

Ah, this topic is going to be a minefield, I just know it. But, regardless, I’ll post away:

Well, I commend Auraptor for (doing his best to) not let the political views of the artists influence his appreciation of the art. There are plenty of writers and directors out there whose politics I don’t agree with, but I try to keep that from influencing my view of their work. So, that’s just a good sentiment to go with in general.

Joss in his wisdom does his best to make a political statement, but make it broad enough that one can usually bring their own ideology to the table and find something of merit in it. Serenity is one example of that; I’ve read reviews from people across the political spectrum who loved the film and felt it was advocating their political viewpoint. Liberals, Conservatives, Libertarians, even Communists (glowing review in the People’s World Weekly) all identified with the heroes and felt their particular political message was being told. That is a sign of great literature; it means Joss is tapping into something universal in everyone, that he’s saying something that cuts to the core of the human condition.

For example, based on comments in interviews, I suspect Whedon (BDM spoiler follows)

Select to view spoiler:

wants the whole Miranda affair to be seen as a criticism of the Iraq War in particular, but he leaves things broad enough that it can be interpreted in almost any way. He’s putting his politics in there, but he’s doing it in a way that isn’t meant to exclude people with divergent views. That’s part of his brilliance.

As for Joss’ personal politics, I’ve seen people either think he’s a closet Libertarian or those who ascribe the Libertarian influence in “Firefly” entirely to Tim Minear. I personally think both views are wrong, because they both assume that the author must always identify with his protagonist’s politics. Whedon has said he probably wouldn’t agree with Mal’s politics and he thinks Mal is wrong about some things. During the ’04 election, Whedon campaigned for John Kerry and (self-deprecatingly) mentioned he’d been volunteering for the Democratic Party as far back as ’88. So, just because Mal seems to be thinking one way, it is unfair to immediately assume that Whedon thinks that way also (I can expand on this a bit more if you want).

But, while Joss might not agree with Mal’s politics, he seems very much interested in telling Mal’s story. Joss tends to be really interested in things he doesn’t agree with/believe in. He’s an atheist, but he uses a great deal of Christian symbolism and mythology in “Buffy” and “Angel.” He’s (as far as I can tell) a liberal, but he weaves a great tale about someone with more libertarian leanings.

(Oh, and one other thing! You might want to make clear, Dreamtrove, that you’re referring to US politics with that “In the beginning, there were two political schools of thought, the federalists and the anti-federalists” thing. Politics have been around since long before federalism was even a twinkle in the Founders’ eyes. Right now that statement reads a bit provincial to my eyes. And I’m not sure I entirely agree with it—but that’s getting even more off topic.)

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:42 PM

DREAMTROVE

I think the sociopolitical messages are sort of the point, so I always try to figure out what the message of the piece was.

I was raised a liberal atheist. In my teens I became fascinated with the whole socialist revolution concept, I have my very own Soviet flag. It still hangs over my bed, but now it's for irony's sake.

Being a left wing commie pinko, and more or less a white black panther, I met a lot of liberals, and was introduced to a lot of then soviets, chinese communists, etc. Over time I became more and more convinced that liberals were striving for something in America which was a nightmare.

I went to school in Kentucky, and over time, knowing communists and conservatives, my views shifted. Also many years of experience of watching liberal plans in action, I became convinces that like my former self, their hearts were in the right place, but that the plans in action had not saved the environment, ended war, hunger, poverty, or disease. Historically I became attracted to conservatives of yore, Eisenhower, TR, etc. Rarely do I find a presidential candidate these days who I'd vote for.

Now I'm a conservative. I can't stand Bush because he's all big govt. patriot act and his supporters are the former communist party (don't blame me, look the neocons up in wikipedia). Anyway, part of what attracts me to Joss is his in your face attitude about the suckiness of big govt. and the need for the power to do your own thing.

This was very strong in buffy. Libertarian, I didn't mean a member of the libertarian party. I mean, social or civil libertarian. Anarchist wasn't a jab, it was a quote. They say it in Buffy several times essentially we're anarchists. Mal is an anarchist, arguably a terrorist. It's a very brave story to be telling right now. I feel certain that Joss isn't showing support for Osama Bin Laden, that's not what I'm saying.

The last thing I'd want is to get into some left/right discussion or some pro/anti bush discussion, which would be totally inappropriate for a firefly board. But I was fascinated by the idea that what i think of as the far left still enjoys the show as much as i do for its political content. I figure the communists wouldn't like it, but most americans would.

Anyway was curious.

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