Dollhouse: Haunted - Echo is a dead person. Post comments here. by Haken

DOLLHOUSE

Dollhouse: Haunted - Echo is a dead person. Post comments here.

POSTED BY: HAKEN
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 12:42
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VIEWED: 128064
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Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:51 PM

Interesting.

I'm assuming a sleeping person doesn't have the ability to force themselves on an unwilling partner. Even if they do, it's ambiguous because technically neither person has given their consent. Could the rape charges cancel each other out in that condition?

But! If the sexomniac is taken advantage of by their partner, and before going to sleep and upon waking up the sexomniac expressed that they did not consent to sex... Then the partner is guilty of rape.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:26 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I guess the real issue is whether or not sex is a sacred act. If a person is not religious then I don't think there's anything for them to worry about.

I am not a religious person.
Sex is a sacred act.
You shouldn't assume one depends upon the other.

[/sig]

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:29 PM

RIVERDANCER

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
We're discussing a fictional situation.

Really? Your outlook on humanity is a fictional situation?

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:12 PM

PACHELBEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Watched it twice. First time, on air; second time on Hulu.

First impression: I was disappointed with Joss. Here, I thought, was an opportunity to really "kick ass" and go out with a bang; giving the Fox execs something to chew on regarding the show's future. I thought, at the end of this ep, "that was good, but not great" I thought he blew his chance to wow 'em.

Second impression: I saw some things that I didn't appreciate in the first viewing. Like Boyd's concerns over the assignment Echo was on. I got more from it the second time around. I also got more from Ballard's sex with Mellie. Anyway, thought better of the ep upon second viewing.
-----------------------------------------

The impressions: Have to go now, ready to leave work. More later.

SGG

Tawabawho?

I think that chance was blown when they skipped a week. Any momentum from ep 9 was killed by the off week. And then they come back with another yawner.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:08 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by BigRichard:
it just seemed to me like you were saying "if you think that way, you're an idiot".

Huh, since there was no mention of intelligence levels it seemed more to me like she was saying "if you think that way, you're an asshole." Which, from her stated perspective of disregard for humanity and ensuing abuse, I would agree with. I like to think that no one here actually believes that there can be circumstances under which a living breathing human being is no longer a 'person' and not entitled to the same rights, but it does seem to be a sickeningly common viewpoint throughout this world of ours. Wars - a whole array of abuse, really - would probably have low or zero instance if that kind of disconnect wasn't possible. We're learning, gradually. There's less enslavement and subjugation than there once was, that's for sure. But it still happens. There is still human trafficking in places, slaves or those who are effectively slaves. Still some horrifying subjugation, particularly of women, who are considered less important and less human to certain elements, it seems. Adolescents, even in a more advanced culture, are often seen as incapable of making any choices or being actual people until they hit a certain age, and never before. Children, even in their sometimes foolish innocence, are still people, are not owned by their parents, should certainly never be abused. That just teaches more abuse through example. Anyway, I could go on and on, I'm starting to free associate.
Given all his work with Equality Now, I don't disagree that Joss might be trying to make that very point. I think he's also pretty clearly making a point about how necessary human interaction is, though that could easily tie back in to the whole idea of 'human' again...
Whew, all that free association got the wheels all turning and I really should have been asleep hours ago. Ah, story of my life.

[/sig]

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Friday, May 1, 2009 4:37 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
But! If the sexomniac is taken advantage of by their partner, and before going to sleep and upon waking up the sexomniac expressed that they did not consent to sex... Then the partner is guilty of rape.

That is pretty much what happens. I remember they showed interviews where partners were talking about how the sexomniac would basically wake them up in the middle of the night and they speak and participate and initiate sex. Then the next morning the partner finds out the sexomniac was asleep the whole time. It's sorta like the first time Ballard has sex with Millie. There's no way for the partner to know that someone else is at the wheel. Did Ballard rape Millie the first time they had sex? What about the second time?

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Really? Your outlook on humanity is a fictional situation?

I don't recall a situation where a person can be overwritten, but if it could happen then yeah I don't think a person is linked to their body. I think our mind, consciousness, and soul make up who we are. If you want to say the Dollhouse is similar to sleep state or drugged state then go ahead and work yourself into a frenzy. I don't think they're even close to the same thing.

How about this one? Would it be worse to be brain dead and have your body taken advantage of or to be raped in the matrix but your physical body is never touched? I would say the matrix is much worse.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 5:15 AM

BYTEMITE

They SPEAK? Bizarre. Well, I guess there is sleep talk... Dirty sleep talk, though?

I know the situation is awful, but between the 'Oh yes!'es I'm imagining lengthy discourses on pink elephants...

The first time with Millie... Ballard realized it was rape later. The real Millie/November just hasn't found out about it. But it's rape.

The second time? Definitely rape. He knew he was taking advantage, and despite the situation forcing him into it, and his disgust before and after, he apparently got a bit... eager.

"How about this one? Would it be worse to be brain dead and have your body taken advantage of or to be raped in the matrix but your physical body is never touched? I would say the matrix is much worse."

I think they're both bad. Equally. The Matrix is a dream that functions as your entire reality, and the reality of the rapist as well, so technically the rape was real, and it happened. And being raped while braindead, even if the body and mind shouldn't be aware of it, it ALSO happened. The mind is a curious thing, even when it shouldn't be aware, it often is, on some subconscious or unconscious level.

Besides, ask yourself this: would society approve of a doctor who went around having sex with people in comas? It's still unethical, it's still taking advantage, and most people who learned about it would be disgusted and calling for the bastard's head. People are expected to respect other people and their bodies when the other person is in a vulnerable state, such as unconscious, comatose, or sleeping.

Although, I notice you're now calling it "rape" of a braindead body, instead of "sex with."

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Friday, May 1, 2009 5:34 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Although, I notice you're now calling it "rape" of a braindead body, instead of "sex with."

I said "taken advantage of" for the brain dead person :-P but yeah I'd still call that rape. Unless for some weird reason they signed something saying they were cool with it before they went brain dead.

Which is the catch with the dollhouse. There is a signed consent form.

I guess we've gone at this argument from every angle though. So, this is just an agree to disagree situation.

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Tuesday, May 5, 2009 10:56 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Although, I notice you're now calling it "rape" of a braindead body, instead of "sex with."

I said "taken advantage of" for the brain dead person :-P but yeah I'd still call that rape. Unless for some weird reason they signed something saying they were cool with it before they went brain dead.

Which is the catch with the dollhouse. There is a signed consent form.

Paul Ballard said it best himself, in this week's episode:

"I don't even care that these people signed themselves over to you. There's no provision for consentual slavery. It's wrong. You know it's wrong."

Amen.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, May 5, 2009 12:26 PM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Paul Ballard said it best himself, in this week's episode:

"I don't even care that these people signed themselves over to you. There's no provision for consentual slavery. It's wrong. You know it's wrong."

Amen.

I just don't think making anything that black and white is good. Until I see an argument about how this hurts someone else I don't see why a person shouldn't be allowed to consent to it. The best example from the show is that it seems to lead to crime and DeWitt even threatened non-consensually enlisting Ballard. It's implied that's what happened to Sierra. So, they're probably stepping over the line in the Dollhouse world. Still I can see ideal situations where I don't see any reason a person shouldn't be allowed to submit themselves to becoming a Doll.

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Tuesday, May 5, 2009 12:42 PM

RIVERDANCER

"Hey, we're a vastly powerful organization that can make your life a living hell for as long as we see fit. But, we can make use of you, so just sign over your free will to us and somewhere down the line we'll let you go, how does that sound?"
Or even, as one 'woman on the street' said, "Hey, we could ease all those troubles you're having. You don't have to pay rent, or study, or work, and you'll spend your time partying with rich people. Here's the dotted line." While left out is the crime you might commit, the appetites you might end up satisfying, and any number of other uses you might be put to.
So you sign. It's all legal and binding that you've consented. Because you aren't a 'person' anymore, your identity has been taken out of you, your body and your subconscious go through 'assignments' not of your choosing and no one considers whether it might harm you, beyond irreparable physical damage that would limit your use. It's selfish, dehumanizing abuse.
"Imagine this technology exists. Now imagine it being used on you."
And that is black and white.

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