Is anyone ever banned from this site? by PhoenixRose

the first thing i want to say is this: what's so bad about an automatic transmission? I have to deal with traffic every day, give me a little break here........

To referrence a lot of feelings expressed throughout this thread, we should ignore those whose feelings go so drastically against our own, with no room or common ground available for both parties to stand and debate.

Now, this is not to suggest that debate, regardles of how heated and passionate it may become, is something to be avoided. Quite the opposite, debate is what makes the world go around, I firmly believe. The presentation and offering of different ideas and notions is the simplest way that humans can learn.

Still, there are those who will shrink from a debate, not because of the superior position of thier oponent, but due to their own insecurity in their position; rather, they will cover their retreats with unpleasant remarks about the other person's mother, et al.

Of course, you ignore them, they brought nothing to the table for which to be recognized, but never ignore the new thought or notion........we can all manage to take something away from something new.

Now, that all being said, resaid, and generally beaten to death with a big stick, let me put forth this: when I was younger, I considered myself a pretty conservative fellow in the political sense, but with every year that passes, I find more and more grey area between the left and the right. Now, while I will defend anyone's right to express their idead, from the Klan to Farakhan, this is due to a natural belief within myself that the minute you can silence one of them, then how far away are we all from being silenced ourselves? Our pristine, sanitary, politically and verbally serile world we live in leaves no room for new idead, for strife, struggle, friction, or argument, but come on, browncoats, isn't that where progress comes from? The Alliance is not 500 years in the future, it is here right now!

Still and all, Mr. Chrismoorehead, do you really think that a photograph of a pair of Waffen SS soldiers is really the right platform to get people's attention? You are using something that symbolizes a regime for whom murder and attrocity were like breakfast toast, and all you are going to do is alienate anyone with even a dollar's worth of decency in their souls, and so what have you accomplished? You shocked and offended, to be sure, but tearing down the old isn't worth much without offering something in its replacement.

Have I ranted and babbled on enough now? Did any of that make sense? And why are you still so pissed off at automatic transmissions?

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

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Monday, September 25, 2006 8:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by browncoatjim:

Still and all, Mr. Chrismoorehead, do you really think that a photograph of a pair of Waffen SS soldiers is really the right platform to get people's attention? You are using something that symbolizes a regime for whom murder and attrocity were like breakfast toast, and all you are going to do is alienate anyone with even a dollar's worth of decency in their souls, and so what have you accomplished? You shocked and offended, to be sure, but tearing down the old isn't worth much without offering something in its replacement.

First let me say that regardless of where the following takes us, I respect and mirror your opinions on people's freedom of speech.

That said, the picture in my signature is Otto Skorzeny on the right and my face on his body on the left. The gash running from cheek to shin on me is real. It's actually how I found out about Skorzeny, when a film archivist friend of mine informed me that I should look into him after I first received this "Schmiss" of mine.

Did I know it would offend some people? Yes. Did I put it up TO offend them? No. That makes all the difference in the world to me. You see, Skorzeny himself was acquited of war crime charges because he never took part in exterminations. He was a soldier, not a murderer, and an innovator of guerilla warfare. I consider him a role model.

"Gasp!", you say. Look, the nazi agenda was an evil one, for sure. But how does anyone say that anyone else was evil for their participation in it? Imagine this: You're a young man in Germany under the nazi regime. You come of age and enlist because you're a patriot and because it's almost a guerenteed good future for you. You're poor. You've got a sick mother. You're from a small town and don't know a whole lot about the world outside of Germany. Propganda has lead you to beleive that Hitler is working for the betterment of all Germany, and at most, you may have heard a couple rumors about what happens to Jewish people after they've been rounded up, but aren't totally sure. But what should you care anyways? You're not Jewish, and you need to look out for yourself and you family first and foremost.

It's incredibly easy to justify it to yourself so simply, and never realize how history would remember you. People did a lot of shitty things to stay alive and keep their heads above water in a very scary and turbulant time. What they did was deffinately wrong, but evil? How can you call someone like that evil? Most people I know can't even handle choosing sides in an altercation between two friends.

I think it's time people stop regarding every image, song and person that came out of Nazi Germany as inheirently evil. That was a horrible time for about half of the entire planet, and it's bullshit that anyone thinks they have the authority to look back and make a judgement between "good" and "evil".

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"Pain is your friend, it is your ally. It will keep you awake, and angry, and remind you to finish the mission and get the hell home. But you know the best thing about pain? It let's you know that you're not dead yet."

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:49 AM

Son't worry, Mr. Chrismoorehead, this won't tak e us anywhere bad, because I do not permit it to. As I enjoy telling my friends and co-workers, I may be an irish kid from Southie (do your research on Boston, determine what sort of a place that is), but I am an EDUCATED Irish kid from Southie.

No, just for the record, I am not a Jew, but my wife is, and, as such, so are my kids. I have no intentions to pull this card out, but I think it may be a pertinent fact, and then again it may not, but I will put it out there all the same.

Your explanation on Herr Skorzeny is an interesting one, to be sure, but a role model? This was not some poor, horse-riding schmo from the corner of no and where in Germany, this was one of the eleite, one of the very bad boys on the black, so if he walked away from war crimes charges, the so be it, but don't think for a second that his hands were clean and pristine, they were not. No one's hands in his position hwere.

But hey, if this is the man you want to choose as a role model, who the hell am I to question it? I can daresay that my long time admiration of Johnny Rotten would more than likely mystify you, so who is right and who is wrong? That, my friend, is a conversation for another day.

However, consider this: the average person will never hear such an explanation, becuase they will see the uniform, and the quote, and write you off as a nazi-loving, white supremecist idiot, and no words will convince them otherwise.

Oh, and regarding the branding of the word evil, I am far too old to believe in many things being black and white anymore, and once when I wore a uniform of my own, they sent me to a terrible place called Somalia, so I make few snap judgement. Things get clouded by events, geography, and the world going on around you, but your Herr Skerzey was a player in the nastiest bunch of bad boys from the 20th Century (my apologies to Comrade Stalin and Mr. Mao). There are some things that are just flat-out wrong, no matter what your justifucations, and even if they are for the right reason, the action itself is still wrong, and somehow, you have to learn how to live with that.

So saying evil? There are just some certain things that are good, and some that are just evil, and nothing changes their nature, not even the best of intents.

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:36 AM

The "best of intentions" wasn't really my point on this one. I agree that even Hitler himself has the "best intentions" in his own eyes. Mine is more of a sympathy for their position type of thing. I still don't beleive any of us can profess to know how we'd react to such a facist dictatorship in our own country, and so I still don't think it's fair to judge others for it. Good points all around, though.

For further information on Skorzent, he actually wasn't German at all. Like Hitler, he was Austrian. By the time he chose to enlist he was already 40 years old with a degree and career in engineering. In spite of his age, he was accepted into an elite combat role and received the Knight's Cross for his valor in armed conflict. In spite of having a wealthy career, he chose to enlist for what he perceived to be a great cause.

The most regretable thing is that he was born on Austrian soil and not American. This was not a man who beleived that Jews should be exterminated. He was a man that beleived good and evil were all in the eye of the beholder, and that in the end the only thing that really mattered was who would be victorious and the stability of government under that victory. He chose the wrong side.

But, enough about that. I'm glad someone actually took the time to talk to me about this instead of insulting me for it. I think I'll change my signature.

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More offensive? Less offensive?

"Pain is your friend, it is your ally. It will keep you awake, and angry, and remind you to finish the mission and get the hell home. But you know the best thing about pain? It let's you know that you're not dead yet."

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:51 AM

You know, Axl Rose once told us "My words may disturb, but at least there's a reaction", and I have always held a great belief in this notion, however, there is a not so fine line between disturb and alienation. Photos of bloody faces or SS soldiers alienate, let's be realistic. No one is going to read further, but rather they will want only to look away from that which they find to be unpleasant.

I will make two references at this time. The first will be the Firefly episode "Bushwhacked" where the crew finds a ship that was hit by Reavers. The sight of the child's tricycle and toys was disturbing, my imagination took it the next several steps. Howver, had the producers gone the next several steps and showed my the 4 or 5 year old's cannibalised, raped, and skinned corpse, I would have shut it off and gone no further.

Secondly, I will reference All in the Family. Bigotry was what people always remember Archie Bunker for, but what he really was was a guy whose society, world, neighborhood, etc. were changing, and he couldn't keep up. Disturbing things all around, because anybody who never saw a little bit of themselves in Archie has a real problem with honesty to themself. Howver, the show made us laugh, while at the same time making us think.

I rant and rave about the way the the English language and the Freedom of Speech and Thought has been so overly sanitized in our great nation, but it's true. Think about it: if you say something loud enough, someone will take offense and sue the ass off of you. Welcome to our brave new world.

Chris, when I was over there, I saw horrors and attrocities that you cannot even begin to conceive of, unless you were in a similar place. Our value on human life, a Western value, is not shared all over the world. I am no longer squeemish, but I also have no desire to look at something I don't want to see.

Put whatever signature you like up there, man. It's your Freedom of Speech, and I will defend you as long as I have air in my lungs, not out of any respect towards your ideals, but becasue I damn sure want to protect my own.

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:14 AM

Ok pal, let me make something very clear. I ain't looking to "shock and offend". I have VERY little to be proud of in my life, and the majority of it has to do with me getting my ass kicked. Some guys get women, others have great bodies, some have money and... etc. Me? I got scars.

So, after one attempt at catering to the masses, is THIS more appropriate? I'm not asking you to respect any of it, just give me some feedback. I really can't imagine what's wrong with this one, unless someone on here has a major problem with open wounds even when they're not bleeding.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:27 AM

hey, not a thing, trust me......for what it's worth, I always found the scar scene in JAWS to be hugely entertaining......I got plenty of scars of my own, along with a couple of missing fingers (after I argues with a gate, and the gate won)......the great thing about a scar is that there is almost always a good story to go with it.

Make no mistake, I have zero interest in trying to tell someone what to do, that goes completely against everything I believe in......I am just offering a different viewpoint is all.....I always tried to take at least one thing from every person I ever met, and if you can do the same, then God love ya!

Also, for waht it's worth, and I am not sly, my leaning is towards women-folk, you are not a bad looking sonofabitch, so don't come down so hard on yourself.

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:11 AM

Y'know, I still want to know why you are so pissed off at automatic transmissions......I drive a BDL (big damn Lincoln).......imagine moving that boat with a stick!

Just a wee bit of levity to keep the debate from getting to hot!

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:16 AM

CMH, is that a picture from the Caledonia group you were speaking of in the imponderable thread?

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:33 AM

KELKHIL

I thought about joining a group like that years ago (the SCA). But when I saw all the rules for combat and such I changes my mind. Used to spar with friends alot in my younger years. Good fun there. Still like to go to the Fair and feast here in Michigan in the summer when I remember that it is going on. Missed it this year though

Kelkhil

The Shirtless Forsaken

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:40 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

I'm just wondering because I've been on a thread that was hijacked by a truly horrible person. I'm not used to this kind of thing happening on this site, I'm used to fellow browncoats actually caring about what other people think and being intelligent even when they're on opposing sides of an issue....

Glad you're feeling a bit better, PhoenixRose.

Usually this is a place where people have been touched by the familial bond in FireFly, and in their interactions with each other try to show and be what they've experienced. And others, not so much. But remember what Mal said: There's good people in the 'verse. Not many, Lord knows, but you only need a few.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:01 AM

Ah, no, stay away from the SCA!!!
*ahem*
Sorry, I know there are good groups out there, but the one I was attached to was horrible...I was also in during major political problems that added to the ick factor. And also, as an authenticrat and a lifelong student of History, I had issues with several aspects of the group.

You know, on second thought, just ignore me completely. You might enjoy the group. I was a heavy weapons fighter (and still like to fight every now and then), and the rules are not all that restrictive.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:04 AM

KELKHIL

The one I was looking into sound like it was the same. Lots of political this and that happening that sucked.

Haven't even looked their way in a while. Still like the fair though. Daughter is getting to the age where she would have fun there as well.

Kelkhil

The Shirtless Forsaken

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:07 AM

Well, we seem to have temporarily hijacked this thread...but at least it's with pleasant stuff!
I love the Ren Faires, too. I, along with a friend, used to produce, write, direct, act in, costume, and choreograph shows for some SE Faires a few years back. Always loved them, and always liked making sure people had a good time during our shows. I'm glad to hear you are taking your daughter!

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
CMH, is that a picture from the Caledonia group you were speaking of in the imponderable thread?

Yeah, that's my "profile shot". The Caledonian thing is just a smaller part of a LARP called Dagorhir. If you don't like SCA due to historical inaccuracies, then Dagorhir is definitely not your thing. It's more fantasy based, with the option of historically themed units.

My group's a really long span of Scottish history, from AD 0 - AD 900, for a rough outline. Because there's so few records from that time period, we're very open in terms of authenticity. You could conceivably be a Pict, Caledonian, Saxon, Scotti... and more. I don't even know exactly what the hell I'm "re-enacting", suffice to say, I get a kick out of running half naked covered in woad into a line of padded shields (especially Roman shields).

Kelkhil, most of that political BS is easy to stay out of the way of. At least, it is in Dagorhir, so I would assume it's the same with the SCA. I used to get invited to "war councils" all the time when I was in charge of a Japanese themed unit, but I never went. The combat systems sound complicated at first, but they're easy to get used to. There's actually this one game called Darkon where they use spells and have like 5 different armor classes... you almost need a gorram calculator to keep track of everything. I'd advise at least giving it a try if you were interested at all.

Browncoatjim - It sounds like you've experienced all the right things in your life. Aside from my personal fatalistic desires, if I make it to your age hopefully I'll have learned as much about being a decent person as you. Until then I look forward to benefiting from your knowledge.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:54 AM

CMH, thanks! That does sound like fun. The one thing I did like about the SCA was the combat...running into a massed shield wall screaming at the top of your lungs; yeah, that was the fun part! I have enjoyed moving on to live steel and choreographed fights, but every now and then I enjoy getting out into the front yard with "safer" weapons and having at it!
Thanks for sharing that, and if you have more photos, I'd like to see them.

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:23 AM

http://www.geocities.com/britannicus.geo/ Here's my unit's main page

http://www.dagorhir.com here's the national website for the LARP itself

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:37 AM