Any Tolkien linguists out there? by montanagirl

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Any Tolkien linguists out there?

POSTED BY: MONTANAGIRL
UPDATED: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:03
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Monday, December 27, 2004 6:31 PM

So I was watching all the extras on my special edition Return, and everyone in the whole thing was pronouncing mumakil with a short u (like "strum"). From what I could tell from my pronunciation guides, u is always long (like "June"). So it should be "moom-a-kil" right? Before I get into an extended argument with my tv set like I did watching Two Towers over how completely they screwed up Faramir's character, I want to make sure I haven't been wrong all this time. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you

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Tuesday, December 28, 2004 3:40 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

I found that strange too, pretty sure it should be moo-ma-kil.

check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly

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Saturday, January 1, 2005 12:35 PM

EGGBERT315

Agreed: moo-ma-kil

Here's another thing that bothered me, the pronunciation of "Shelob". The pronunciation guides indicated that the letter "e" is always short as in "bell", not long as in "peel". And everyone in the film and extras goes around calling the spider SHEELOB instead of SHELLOB.

If it was to be pronounces SHEELOB it would have been spelt "Shilob".

So am I right?

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Saturday, January 1, 2005 2:10 PM

MONTANAGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by eggbert315:
Here's another thing that bothered me, the pronunciation of "Shelob". The pronunciation guides indicated that the letter "e" is always short as in "bell", not long as in "peel". And everyone in the film and extras goes around calling the spider SHEELOB instead of SHELLOB.

If it was to be pronounces SHEELOB it would have been spelt "Shilob".

So am I right?

Exactly! That was bothering me too. You'd think with as many Tolkein people they had working on the movie, someone would have pointed those things out to them. (Although I still LOVE the movies.) Thank you for backing me up.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 1:35 PM

DIETCOKE

Yes, I like Faramir so much more in the book. Have you seen the extended versions of Two Towers and Return of the King? Much more Faramir. Sorry, can't help you on the pronunciations...

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 4:43 PM

MONTANAGIRL

Of course I've seen the extended editions!

I actually own three versions of each movie: VHS (because Mom and Dad don't have a DVD player and I have to have a version to take home), theatrical DVD, and extended DVD. Yes the extended editions have more Faramir, but still not enough, and still not the Faramir from the book, although they got a lot closer in Return.

By the way, I sent you a message instead of replying on the other thread. I don't know if you got it. Yes, I'm still in Montana. I'm originally from central Montana and went to school at MSU, then ended up staying in Bozeman. I don't know if we've ever run into each other, because probably the only time I would have met Glasgow people would have been at a Speech and Drama meet in high school.

(And even after today, I am sticking by my signature

)

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 4:54 PM

DIETCOKE

I did get your e-mail, thanks! I guess you didn't get my reply. Anyway, I was in Speech & Drama too and traveled all over MT. I placed 3rd at state in Humorous Solo in '76. Way before your time, I'm sure!

Anyway, I worked as a Virginia City Player for many summers and went to Bozeman all the time.
By the way, a fellow V.C. Player was staring on Broadway in "Dracula" as Dracula. Tom Hewitt. He does a lot of Broadway stuff.

There's a lot of Montana actors in NYC that work a lot. They're called the Montana Mafia.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 5:33 PM

MONTANAGIRL

I didn't get your reply, so I'm glad I talked to you here. Yeah, '76 is a bit before my time (in school anyway). I did humorous duo myself. I always went to State, but never made Finals.

I've only been down to see the Virginia City players a few times, but it's a darn good show. Did they do the shorts at the end when you were there? That's the best part.

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
There's a lot of Montana actors in NYC that work a lot. They're called the Montana Mafia.

My mom is involved locally with Sheakespeare in the Parks, and we host two of the actors every year when they come to Utica. They've mentioned the Montana Mafia before. It sounds like the people who are either from Montana or worked here are all known to each other. The guys I know best are out of Chicago and there's a Montana Mafia there too.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 5:51 PM

DIETCOKE

Good, I'm glad I ran into you here. I'm a big LOTR fan. Never read the book until after the movies!

Yes, every Montana actor know other Montana actors. Another former VCP here in NYC who was in Lion King is Bill Bowers. He is from Missoula. (I went a few years at U of M but got my degree in theater at Boston University.)

I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the show. And yes, VCP's always had the varied, vigorous, vagary, of vivacious, variety acts! The Olio show following the drama. I haven't been back in years.

Many of the folks that worked at VC also did Shakespeare in the Parks. They are great. Some of the best Shakespeare I've seen was in Montana and I see Joe Papp's Shakespeare in the Parks in NYC all the time!

Another old friend of mine, Andy Taylor is now touring in The Producers as the second lead! He and I worked together back in '77 at the Big Fork Playhouse.

I love see these folks get work. Nice people in Montana!

I think there is a couple of other Montana people on the board. I met a guy from Billings but I can't remember his alias. We should start a MT thread just to see how many are out there!

See you!

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 5:52 PM

DIETCOKE

Good, I'm glad I ran into you here. I'm a big LOTR fan. Never read the book until after the movies!

Yes, every Montana actor know other Montana actors. Another former VCP here in NYC who was in Lion King is Bill Bowers. He is from Missoula. (I went a few years at U of M but got my degree in theater at Boston University.)

I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the show. And yes, VCP's always had the varied, vigorous, vagary, of vivacious, variety acts! The Olio show following the drama. I haven't been back in years.

Many of the folks that worked at VC also did Shakespeare in the Parks. They are great. Some of the best Shakespeare I've seen was in Montana and I see Joe Papp's Shakespeare in the Parks in NYC all the time!

Another old friend of mine, Andy Taylor is now touring in The Producers as the second lead! He and I worked together back in '77 at the Big Fork Playhouse. I love to see these folks get work. Nice people in Montana!

I think there is a couple of other Montana people on the board. I met a guy from Billings but I can't remember his alias. We should start a MT thread, just to see how many are out there!

See you!

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 6:11 PM

MONTANAGIRL

My best friend didn't read the books until after the movies either, which she was very glad of since she could just enjoy the movies on their own while I ranted about how they had screwed up "my" Faramir.

There was a Montana Browncoats thread that I dug up a little while ago, but nobody responded to it but me and reginaroadie, who wasn't even technically in Montana

.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 6:20 PM

DIETCOKE

So are you are Faramir fan too? He was my favorite character in the book! He was so short-changed in the movie... I have spent hours boring my husband and explaining who he was and why he was such a loved character.

We're not alone. I've heard other people say that the only big disappointment for them in the movie was Faramir.

I have to say, I liked the actor and thought he did a nice job, the character was just not written like he is in the book.

I wasn't upset that Tom B. wasn't in the show. He was interesting but didn't drive the plot. But Faramir, dang, I just thought he was great in the book.

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Sunday, January 9, 2005 6:33 PM

MONTANAGIRL

I am so in love with Faramir it isn't even funny. He is my absolute favorite character from the book. I can quote him at the drop of a hat. During Two Towers when they had him saying, "The ring goes to Gondor," I just kept muttering to myself, "I would not take this thing if I found it by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo." Meanwhile, people around me gave me odd looks and unobtrusively scooted away

. Then when I was watching the appendices and Phillipa was explaining why they had totally screwed him up (only she didn't use that term), I actually got into an argument with my TV screen and got so upset I had to turn it off and call my mom to cool down. I tend to become irrationally attached to fictional characters. But I agree that David Wenham did an excellent job with the part as it was written. I just wish they would have had more between him and Eowyn in the Houses of Healing. Even the little bit they added into the extended edition wasn't nearly enough to explain the relationship that developed between them. I was always so happy that Faramir and Eowyn ended up together (after he figuratively kicked her in the butt to make her come to grips with her feelings.) They made a wonderful couple.

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Thursday, January 13, 2005 8:13 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by montanagirl:
During Two Towers when they had him saying, "The ring goes to Gondor," I just kept muttering to myself, "I would not take this thing if I found it by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo." Meanwhile, people around me gave me odd looks and unobtrusively scooted away . Then when I was watching the appendices and Phillipa was explaining why they had totally screwed him up (only she didn't use that term), I actually got into an argument with my TV screen and got so upset ........I tend to become irrationally attached to fictional characters. But I agree that David Wenham did an excellent job with the part as it was written. I just wish they would have had more between him and Eowyn in the Houses of Healing. Even the little bit they added into the extended edition wasn't nearly enough to explain the relationship that developed between them. I was always so happy that Faramir and Eowyn ended up together (after he figuratively kicked her in the butt to make her come to grips with her feelings.) They made a wonderful couple.

I felt pretty much the same way. I loved what the writers did with the story over all, but I did not buy their explanation for having to change the Faramir storyline. I thought it worked just fine the way it was without adding in any more drama just for drama's sake.

Ka is a wheel, time but a face on the water.

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Friday, February 11, 2005 11:19 AM

THIEFJEHAT

Quote:
Originally posted by montanagirl:
During Two Towers when they had him saying, "The ring goes to Gondor," I just kept muttering to myself, "I would not take this thing if I found it by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo." Then when I was watching the appendices and Phillipa was explaining why they had totally screwed him up (only she didn't use that term), I actually got into an argument with my TV screen.

Montanagirl,

Finally a person who thinks as I do! Reading that post was like reading thoughts from my own brain. I mentioned this briefly on a thread in the buffy forum in reference to the errors committed against season 7 but I'd just love to rant 100% of my LOTR feelings out here.

As I've stated before regarding the development of Willow in Buffy season 7, I hold violations of character to be the greatest sin a writer can commit against an art. In Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy there may be a lot of things I disliked but there are two unforgivable events that occured:

Farimir's character was violated in the TT in what I term the "The ring goes to Gondor" scene.

Sam's character was violated in the ROTK in what I term the "Sam go home" scene.

First off, lets examine Farimir. Farimir is the second son of Denethor, steward of Gondor. His brother, Boromir is the stronger in prowess, and considered the greater war leader. But there was an important point Tolkien was trying to make here regarding the brothers. Although Boromir was the physically stronger, the faster, the better leader, and whatnot...he was seduced and corrupted by the power of the ring. Farimir however, resisted. Farimir was talented in different ways, he was stronger in will where his brother was stronger in body. And there, in Ithillen, in the shadow of the enemy where the ring was growing in seductive power, Farimir says "I do not wish for such triumphs Frodo son of Drogo" In that desperate moment of seduction he proved his quality. Now when I watched this moment on the big screen you better believe I was utterly shocked. Up until that moment I hadn't been greatly dissipointed by anything Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens had done. Yea there were all kinds of irratitions throughout and they were usually related to handing Liv Tyler more screen time then she really deserved. But then there came this...this...this terrible alteration of character. And I went through the stages of grief about it to: I denied I saw it, then I got mad, then I tried to rationalize it before falling into the depression I'm in today. I waited impatiently 11 months after that to buy the extended verson just so I could listen to the commentary. What I heard made me mad but at least the trio had a semi-plausable explaination: To not take the ring to Gondor would create a gap in the film where Sam and Frodo are more-or-less idle and that won't sit well with audiences...what the writing industry usually calls a "pitfall" So they pulled the trek back to Gondor out of the air. My response? They still did wrong. All they really had to do was space out the Frodo/Sam sequences more than they did and just deal with them not being uber-active, the viewers will understand. It's a trilogy after all. But in this next sin they have no excuse and that infuriates me!

"Sam, go home" What? What just happened there? Why on this earth would our 3 writers change the assent of the hidden stair to include this confrontation? What great good can come from this? I can't imagine that professor Tolkien would have stood idle and watched this violation of Sam. Jackson says he respects and admires Tolkien and knows so much about the man's life. He stated to Sean Astin during casting that Sam is a representation of a Batmen, or rather the loyal attendent to a british officer, and in Tolkiens case, a representation of the professor's own Batmen in WWI, just as the faces in the dead marshes represent soldiers lying dead in WWI shell holes. Sam represents so many things in the tale, and "loyalty unto death" is perhaps the strongest. Given that: Why write in the change on the stair? You just set it up so that now Frodo will proceed into the spiders lair alone. Well you better believe that when the extended edition was released in Dec 2004 I skipped to that sequence to hear what the trio had to say and when I did my heart went cold. What was the great reason why? There isn't one. They just felt like they wanted to change things up. Never mind that within 20 minutes Sam would be by frodo's side again after the spider sting. There was no writers "pitfall" being avoided here. They just wanted to change things. In this case I've gone from Denial to anger and I'm staying there.

There are of course many other problems in the series, but the 2 violations of character are surely the most insidious. Another that was totally wrong was their addition of the Gandalf vs. Witch King standoff in the extended ROTK. I was looking forward to it, and had thought up until then that it should have been in the theatrical release anyway, but once I saw it I was again upset. They changed into a situation where instead of Gandalf bravely standing fast in the face of the Nazgul he cowers in fear. Shadowfax who is described as "The only beast in all the world that could stand firm in the face of such terror" is now bucking wildly and clearly panicing. Finally the witch king delivers a line then gestures and BREAKS GANDALF'S STAFF with some mystical spell or whatnot. What absurdity. It would have been better that they had just ignored the confrontation than produce this crap. And they even say the same thing about this that they do in the commentary about Sam on the stairs, that they just decided on a whim to change it up. There is utterly nothing redeaming about it. I mean, geeze, only true fans are buying the extended edition anyway, to do these things seems like they are trying deliberately to upset people.

Now I'm harsh. But I'm also fair. There are plenty of good things in the series and some that are downright georgeous. But as for the 2 violations of character? Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh: you broke my heart.

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Friday, February 11, 2005 12:03 PM

PIXYCAT

I completely agree with the above Faramir comments. Furthermore, Faramir giving in to the power of the Ring diminishes Aragorn's choice. How could he forsake the throne when he appears to be the only man capable of resisting the Ring. In the book Aragorn accepts the crown because he accepts his destiny, Faramir would have made a great Steward of Gondor. Instead, in the movie, Aragorn must take the throne because there is no one else.

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