Rever Theories by Kaythryn

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Rever Theories

POSTED BY: KAYTHRYN
UPDATED: Monday, May 5, 2003 08:53
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VIEWED: 6274
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Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:09 PM

I’ve been kind of having a Firefly marathon today and its brought up some thoughts. This bit is from Bushwhacked.

MAL
So we attacked that ship, then brought
the only living survivor to our
infirmary. That's what we did?
HARKEN
I'd ask him. Only I'm not sure he'll be
able to speak with his tongue split down
the middle.
MAL
Wuh de tyen, ah
HARKEN
I haven't seen that kind of torture
since... well, since the war.

Maybe a small group of Revers were created secretly by the Alliance. They might of been human soldiers who were subjected to steroid treatments, hormone therapy, and the like. Altered soldiers who were better able to survive the battles. Maybe they were created in a way that they could have more stamina and less caring and nurturing characteristics. Who knows what they can do 500 years in the future. Maybe they were changed so they could survive by eating only human flesh. Here it is mentioned in the second part of the pilot-

ZOE
If they take the ship they’ll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin to their clothing. And if we’re very, very lucky, they’ll do it in that order.

In the battle field Revers would be able to find plenty of that, and survive while other soldiers starved to death. The blue handed men may be their creators, and the only people in the government who know the truth about them. Their telepathic capacities, or any other special talents their branch of the government might possess may be what they use to create, or control the Revers.
Only a few people who ever saw the Revers survived- Alliance boys, or browncoats alike- and those that did were raving mad and their bodies were all cut up. The medics and friends who took care of those victims chalked up their condition as torture that was administered from the other side. I’m betting that the blue handed men either lost control of these soldiers- Revers- or they let them roam freely. Any damage the Revers did, the Alliance blamed on rouge, vengeful browncoats. The “browncoat” threat might of also pushed the need for Alliance protection in citizens.

Pilot part two
WASH
I guess they weren’t hungry. I didn’t expect to see them here.
ZOE
There pushing out further every year too
MAL
Getting awful crowed in my sky.

This makes me think that the Revers probably had mostly terrorized people just outside of the core planets, but not as far out as the rim. That also would account for why people far out on the rim have little need for the Alliance, and accept, or at least tolerate browncoats. They don’t fear the browncoats because the Revers are not much of a problem far out on the rim. Am I making any sense? That last bit I noticed that makes me believe that the Revers started out during the war is the fact that Zoë and Mal are the people who know the most about them. Even the Alliance brass didn’t know about Revers, and I suspect that it’s partially due to the fact that they didn’t have any real field experience.
**Deep breath**
Okay, that's all I had to say, and thoughts?

-------------------------------------
Jayne: Hey, I didn't fight in no war. Best of luck, though.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2003 7:26 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

It's an interesting theory, but I think it conflicts with the underlying defination of what a Reaver is, as defined by JW. Namely, that Reavers are people that when out into the black, and the black drove them insane. It's a frightening idea that people can go that wrong. That void can suck out our humanity to that extreme. The idea that Reavers are created, artificial, somehow makes them more.... tangible, and less frightening. I think that Whedon would leave the Reaver's exact origins a mystery, if only to add to their mythic atmosphere, and therefore to their scariness.

________________

BOOK: So he'll live then.
MAL: Which to my mind is unfortunate.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:45 PM

JONSP

Quote:
It's a frightening idea that people can go that wrong. That void can suck out our humanity to that extreme. The idea that Reavers are created, artificial, somehow makes them more.... tangible, and less frightening.

Yeah. What you said.

I prefer the idea that the Revers are just people. No conspiracies, no tidy explanations. Just people who moved far out beyond the Rim, lost contact with the rest of humanity, then ... well, lost contact with their own humanity. I don't know if I'd call it a frightening idea though. More ... telling.

I mean, that's one of Firefly's most interesting elements: exploring what happens to people who are cast out into the black, where ... well, humanity itself becomes a choice, and a very difficult one at times. One group of people -- the Revers, a whole f'ing society -- goes savage. Another -- the crew of Serenity and the other few good folk on the Rim -- hold onto their nobility, morality, honor, loyalty, love, faith, and all those other good humnany things. Well, mostly.

Plus, I think the exchange between Simon and Zoe in the pilot kind of pokes a hole in the Revers-as-experimental-soldiers theory.

Simon: I don't understand.

Zoe: You never heard of Revers?

Simon: Campfire stories. Men gone savage on the edge of space, killing ...

Zoe: They're not stories.

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Thursday, March 20, 2003 3:36 AM

KAYTHRYN

Thanks guys, that’s clears up a lot. I forgot about all of the "men gone savage on the edge of space" references. I kind of got one idea in my head and ran with it.

-------------------------------------
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein

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Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:47 AM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by JonSP:

I prefer the idea that the Revers are just people. No conspiracies, no tidy explanations. Just people who moved far out beyond the Rim, lost contact with the rest of humanity, then ... well, lost contact with their own humanity. I don't know if I'd call it a frightening idea though. More ... telling.

Yes! And scarier too, because that means that anybody spending any amount of time in the black on or past the rim could possibly become a Reaver.

I wonder to what extent fear of Reavers is fear of being killed and eaten--which is all kinds of horrifying and I'm all aware of that-- and to what extent the fear is the fear of knowing that the Reaver potential is in everyone who is in the black on the rim?

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:00 AM

HJERMSTED

The Reaver layers I am most curious to learn more about are the possibilities of them having some kind of hierarchy, perhaps even a social order.

After all, they are able to maintain and fly spacehips in and out of planetary atmospheres... they must have a rudimentary understanding of insterstellar navigation, mechanics, etc.

I imagine there is an Apocalypse Now Brando-type character sitting on a throne of bones somehow barely keeping the Reavers organized enough to sustain themselves. Otherwise the Reavers would be loonies adrift in space (like our friend Jubal Early) and odds are against huge numbers of them surviving spacedrift long enough to be "rescued".

mattro

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Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:12 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I like the thought of a throne of bones. and I agree that they have some sort of order, but very much less than what you may think. Probably, the biggest, baddest reaver is in charge. As to there being that throne of bones. I doubt it. Unless there are many thrones of bones. You know, each individual reaver bigdog has his own throne, on his own ship. ( or here's a thought... HER ship...maybe the reaver bigdog is a female?!?!)
I assume they get their knowledge of spaceships from the fact that they were once just ordinary folks that went bad, real bad, and ordinary folks have knowledge of spaceships.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I don't know, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

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Thursday, March 20, 2003 3:08 PM

WULFHAWK

Well, I've had some thoughts on the matter. The terrible stories of cannabilism, mutilation, etc, reminded me of the tales that were told about Dark Age vikings, and pre-colonial pirates. They also remind me of similar tales told about frontier 'injuns'.

Is JW tapping into those potent myths, hiding a frontier culture of feral humans? Or are they simply outlaws so extreme they regard the rest of civilization as prey? We've seen the kidnappers in the hills, driven to steal people to keep their community from dying. We've seen men commit murder and piracy.

Tell ya what, I'd buy a 'world' synopsis from JW if he'd put it out.

No conclusion...wish Josh would come show us some more...

tanstaafl

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Wednesday, April 2, 2003 5:55 AM

TRAGICSTORY

Personally, I like the thought of reavers being men who just lost it, because it would mean the first reavers would have been the best and the brightest of the "Future NASA" who went out to find us a new galaxy. Losing your humanity in the course of saving humanity is wonderfully ironic. For all we know they could be at the edges of humanity terraforming new planets which allows humans to expand and thrive until they meet the reavers. (This would be like Well's Time Machine and if what I say is true, it is pure genius on JW's end)

Or I could be reading too much into it.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Wednesday, April 2, 2003 6:14 AM

RADEGUND

The aspect of the Reaver story that interests me is the question of how anybody really knows what they are. If you're lucky, they pass you by. If you're unlucky, they probably kill you. So people are basing their ideas on interpretations of the scant evidence left behind -- wrecked ships, skinned bodies, etc. (I can imagine some sort of "CSI: Alliance" team going through the ship, measuring blood spatter, etc.

)

The rare survivor, like the guy in "Bushwhacked," is usually too traumatized to be helpful. Furthermore, keep in mind that he is someone the Reavers neither killed nor took with them to be another Reaver. Why leave him? Maybe he's another booby trap? Perhaps they're actually highly organized and intelligent and using the survivors to spread disinformation?

Which leads to the question of how Mal knows so much about Reavers, and what his source of information is. Stories he's heard or actual experience?

I'm willing to consider that what the characters "know" is not the truth. Gorram Fox, cancelling our show before Joss could tease us with more of this story!

Radegund

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Wednesday, April 2, 2003 6:15 AM

LOSTANGEL

I think Mal and Zoe know the most about Reavers because they're most comfortable in the black, where the Reavers are. The Alliance wouldn't know about them because they're not comfortable in the black or "frontier".

JW could be tapping into the myth of the feral humans. There are the wolf children of India, where wolves raise human babies instead of eating them, there's the Native Americans with the Settlers, the Celts and Germans with the Romans, the Vikings with the Celts, and most recently, the Vietnam vets that purposely went back to the jungles because they couldn't adjust to civilization. There's a rumor that a small patch of jungle in Hawaii has been turned into "Little Vietnam" for the Vietnam Vets who couldn't take it anymore.

I'd love to know how true that rumor is though. Well, back to snopes!

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?

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Wednesday, April 2, 2003 2:53 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
there's the Native Americans with the Settlers, the Celts and Germans with the Romans, the Vikings with the Celts, and most recently, the Vietnam vets that purposely went back to the jungles because they couldn't adjust to civilization.
Quote:

I think you've hit on it. I don't think the Celts quite fit, because many did become Romanized. But, mostly Reavers are a plot device to fill the role of Indians. Firefly is a Western in Space, can't have a western without Indians.

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Thursday, April 3, 2003 9:35 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaythryn:
Thanks guys, that’s clears up a lot. I forgot about all of the "men gone savage on the edge of space" references. I kind of got one idea in my head and ran with it.

and yet who's to say the Alliance didn't start the Reaver story in the first place?

my questions are plentiful but basically drill down to this: how does Mal know so much about them as he was raised on a colony, not a spacecraft?

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Thursday, April 3, 2003 5:14 PM

NOOCYTE

Reckon I'm not the first to say this (in fact, I think I recall seeing a variant in a fanfic around here somewhere). Personally, I think Shadow was hit by reavers, and Mal (just) survived. No evidence for this (apart from his intimate knowledge of how the reavers work [one of those beloved ranch hands left behind?]), but it feels right to me...

Department of Redundancy Department

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Thursday, April 3, 2003 6:11 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Do you think the survivor in Bushwacked was a method of Rever adoption? Just a thought.

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Friday, April 4, 2003 5:22 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
Reckon I'm not the first to say this (in fact, I think I recall seeing a variant in a fanfic around here somewhere). Personally, I think Shadow was hit by reavers, and Mal (just) survived. No evidence for this (apart from his intimate knowledge of how the reavers work [one of those beloved ranch hands left behind?]), but it feels right to me...

great minds must be thinking alike--the second I wrote the question, my brain started working on it. fearfully, the idea emerged that the reason why his home is "gone" is because of the reavers. and if, as you say, he did find one of the ranch hands who "survived" and had to, shall we say, help him find *peace* it would explain a great deal, wouldn't it? i can picture him learning all of this after Serenity, when he thought he would be going home to a safe place where nothing is supposed to change, only to find it decimated. wow...is there a story there or what?

Zoe, I think, takes the reavers as fact and not campfire stories because she was raised on a spaceship and reavers are the darker part of her culture.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Friday, April 4, 2003 5:40 AM

NOOCYTE

Quote:
i can picture him learning all of this after Serenity, when he thought he would be going home to a safe place where nothing is supposed to change, only to find it decimated. wow...is there a story there or what?

Wow! I Hadn't even thought of a time frame for the reaver attack on Shadow to have taken place; the notion of Mal coming back from the battle (and subsequent abandonment) of Serenity Valley, beaten and doubting, only to find the rest of his roots severed so traumatically... really makes the "None of it means a damn thing" line resonate all the more heart-rendingly! Good thought, Channain!

And, yah; I can well imagine Zoe and her band having chanced across a reaver-hit derelict or two in her time, so her reaction also makes sense.

Department of Redundancy Department

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Friday, April 4, 2003 6:34 AM

HJERMSTED

Quote:
I think you've hit on it. I don't think the Celts quite fit, because many did become Romanized. But, mostly Reavers are a plot device to fill the role of Indians. Firefly is a Western in Space, can't have a western without Indians.

A 'Western' = Hollywood entertainment.
Hollywood's take on Indians = hardly enlightened on the subject of the role Native Americans played in US history (only a very small percentage of the 500 nations European settlers encountered were actually brutal and aggressive).

Assuming Joss is using the Reavers as a metaphor for 'savages' in the Western sense, hopefully his take on them will be* more enlightened than typical Hollywood and lean toward the reality of Native Americans: They were misunderstood, marginalized tools of propaganda/fear.

Or perhaps the existential atheistic Mr. Whedon genuinely believes that space madness will lead to carnage, destruction and cannibalism.

mattro

(*yes, I'm an optimist)

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Friday, April 4, 2003 11:26 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Noocyte:
Quote:

the notion of Mal coming back from the battle (and subsequent abandonment) of Serenity Valley, beaten and doubting, only to find the rest of his roots severed so traumatically... really makes the "None of it means a damn thing" line resonate all the more heart-rendingly!

Mal's awfully empty inside. he puts on a good show, but all that anger is hiding the fact that his heart has been scraped hollow. leaving him with sorrow so deep he'll probably never really feel anything again. he might be afraid to because once he does, he'll have to feel it all and probably lose it in the process. that happens when absolutely everything is taken away.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Friday, April 4, 2003 11:26 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Quote:
there's the Native Americans with the Settlers, the Celts and Germans with the Romans, the Vikings with the Celts, and most recently, the Vietnam vets that purposely went back to the jungles because they couldn't adjust to civilization.
Quote:

I think you've hit on it. I don't think the Celts quite fit, because many did become Romanized. But, mostly Reavers are a plot device to fill the role of Indians. Firefly is a Western in Space, can't have a western without Indians.

it's true, really. what western would be complete without indians? (Rio Bravo is, but it's got Mexicans.) civilization isn't everybody's cup of tea. the entire crew of Serenity is trying their best to do without it, even Inara.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Friday, April 4, 2003 6:22 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

You know, none of the John Wayne "Rio" formula movies (I think there's at least three) have Indians, neither does Big Jake,Cahill US Marshall,Pale Rider,Shane,The Magnificent Seven, The Cowboys... I stand corrected. I guess you can have Westerns without Indians. However, there's always bad guys whether they're cattle rustlers or land grabbing railroad men.

I think Joss is using the Reavers to generate that tense, scary feeling the 'bad guys'give you when they appear on the screen, whether they're Indians, Commancheros, Banditos, Cattle Rustlers etc.

I loved the intensity of the moment when the crew quietly slipped by the Reaver Ship in Serenity. It was great, albiet proably more like a submarine movie than a western. You just knew this was a force you don't want to mess with.

I really miss this show. I hope I get to see those three unaired episodes.

Keep flying man.

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Friday, April 4, 2003 9:51 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Firefly is not only a space western, but a
frontier space western.

JW went with no Aliens, and needed a " fear of the unknown " component.
We are not suppose to understand the reavers, or even know that much about them, they are that boogie man come to life, the scary because you just don't know thing.

In many Westerns Indians were sterotyped into this component, as in real life there was fear and prejudice, unknown hate, making threats of of fear.

Total fic here, how about the reavers are a cult based upon the alliance buried discovery of alien artifacts. This cult completely rejects civilization ( such as it is ) and attempts to either destroy or convert it whereever they find it through ritual torture and cannibalism. They desicrate themselves as well to appear more alien, or at least less human, ( as maybe these " unknown alien artifacts " reveal themselves to be) also reflecting their rejection of both the current order and what they are.

I think this would explain the " ritual " way reavers treat their captives, violence such as this in a group dynamic without purpose is rare, and many cults are high ordered and functional as opposed to dysfuntional manaics. Not only do they operate spacecraft, but they convert and modify them ( grapplers, running without core containment ) Their culture must provide both a command structure, and a support structure ( supplies, fuel, parts, etc ) as they left behind some obvious plunder on the ship in bushwacked, I don't think they are pirating as I thought from the pilot.

Broken people are more easily influenced by cults, perhaps some former browncoats fell onto this path. Maybe Mal and Zoe at one point attempted to retrieve some comrades fallen to this fate, and their expriences are based upon this action. As Mal said of the bushwacked survivor, pity would be shooting him. I think he tried to bring someone back before, and ended up showing him this mercy.

I prefer to think the Alliance was responsible for whatever happened at Shadow, and that fuels Mals hatred of them.

If nothing elses my ranting might provide many plots and subplots. I wish I had time to try to write some fanfic, I haven't written in a long time and the idea has some appeal.

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Saturday, April 5, 2003 8:28 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
You know, none of the John Wayne "Rio" formula movies (I think there's at least three) have Indians...

well, just to be persnickity for a sec, considering the ratio of white actors who played indians back in the day versus native actors who played indians...there really weren't many indians actually in the old westerns

i do like a man who knows his westerns, though.

Rio Bravo was the best of the rio formulas, mainly i think by virtue of being the first. it has a specialness for me simply cuz the first time i watched it was with my dad, the all-time western fanatic.

Quote:
However, there's always bad guys...I think Joss is using the Reavers to generate that tense, scary feeling the 'bad guys'give you when they appear on the screen...

it's a huge part of any western. without the bad guys, it's just the good guy, a girl and a horse -- just wrong, really. nothin for the good guy to do to impress the girl.

that moment when Serenity and the Reaver ship pass in the black was very much like a submarine movie, wasn't it? good perspective there Veteran--a great way to combine the outer space aspect with the western, where the same scene would have been done by getting off the horses, wrapping hooves and sneaking by the bad-guy/indian/confederate camp all quiet like, only moreso because we nevery actually saw the Reavers, just their ship. had me at the very sharp edge of my seat, waiting for the moment between thinking all hell is gonna break loose, then doesn't.

i have a notion that the three unaired eps will show up this summer sometime...fingerscrossed on that one.

"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal

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Saturday, April 5, 2003 7:52 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Total fic here, how about the reavers are a cult based upon the alliance buried discovery of alien artifacts.

This isn't a bad idea but, I'd prefer it if there were no aliens, or reference to them. Joss left aliens out to put Firefly in a unique set of Sci-Fi stories. Because of that, I think the blackness insanity maybe the only explanation of why Reavers exist that we get.
You're right, Reavers definitely have to have hierarchy and support. Space travel is way to complex for them not to have these things. This complicates the insantiy explanation. I suggest that Reaver bands are held toghether individuals who've retained enough faculties to keep things running.

I'm not so sure about the treatment of the victims being ritualistic. If it is, it ties in neatly with the Reavers as Indians idea. I've heard a few descriptions of mutilized horse soldiers and what the mutilization meant. I think the mutilization is due to the Reavers insanity and serves as a plot devise to instill that pins and needles feeling Joss wants us to have when they're nearby.
I think your idea about Mal and Zoe trying to rescue a comrade from becoming a Reaver is great. If you are thinking about writing a fanfic you should run with that one.

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Saturday, April 5, 2003 9:18 PM

SELNYC

Well, I've read this entire thread with intense interest because the reavers are a fascinating element of the Firefly universe/galaxy/solar system (that's an entirely different thread) that we may never see again because our options for exploring this time and place have become so limited .

I agree with those of you who say this is NOT some alien influence, direct or indirect though it may be. I further do NOT think they are related to some Alliance conspiracy, perhaps connected with the (as yet unknown) research on River, if only because Joss has never been that obvious.

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief as far as allowing these guys to retain their ability to fly spaceships while appearing to be total savages (OK, don't get me started on the whole Levi-Strauss thing about savages versus natives thing) if only in understanding if they occupied a single planet, and were therefore planet-bound, we could easily avoid going there; they have to be mobile to present a credible threat.

What I do recall are the interviews with Mercury & Gemini and Apollo space crews, some from Tom Wolfe's original The Right Stuff, as published in Rolling Stone way back when. Those of you who are familiar with that article or his final published book will recall these key differences: the three-part article followed the program from the X-15 through the Apollo program, instead of concentrating solely on the Mercury program as the book (and terrific film adaptation) did.

The main thing I remember is their discussion of the vastness of space.

There are few ways for us to comprehend the size of that place that's not here on Earth. Maybe you've lain on a dark and deserted beach for an hour, staring at the stars (takes about 45 minutes for your eyes to really adjust) until you can see the band of stars we know as the Milky Way stretch way out over both horizons. Maybe you've see pictures from the Hubble telescope, with graphs and charts describing relative sizes in terms of light years and parsecs and how many Empire State Buildings it equals and think you understand.

Well, you don’t.

Space is big. Bigger than we humans can easily comprehend. If you lie on that beach for that hour and see the Milky Way in all its splendor, you’ll truly know the meaning of small, ‘cause that’s what you’ll feel like. You want to know what your place in the universe might be? You are the tiniest speck of dust on the bottom of huge black bowl.

And now I have one word for you: AGORIPHOBIA.

The opposite of claustrophobia, the fear of wide-open spaces, common enough here on Earth, in our time, that there are people who cannot even leave their homes for fear of the great beyond, which for them translates as the mall or even the mail box down on the next corner.

Now let’s consider a planet-wide population forced to evacuate Earth-that-was; there can be no exceptions. If you are agoraphobic, well, we’ve gotta take you with us, ‘cause otherwise, you die.

Out in the black, this would become acute, unrelenting agoraphobia, with no hope of relief and no home to go back to, nowhere to go but out of your mind.

I'm a mean old man.

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Saturday, April 5, 2003 9:28 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

I also like the fact the show has no aliens,
but you would need something to base this cult on. Maybe there are no aliens, but the possibility and / or belief of aliens exists and the reavers believe they are the aliens ( self mutilation ) You wouldn't need the aliens, and the idea of something else out there even if they haven't seen anything yet must exist, even if Wash would call it Science Fiction.

In Bushwacked the dead were hanging from the ceiling, I think that must be part of some kind of ritual.

I would really like to try a fanfic, thanks for the encouragement. I think I will rewatch Bushwacked, and maybe read about cannibal rituals first, I think maybe a Aztec influence might have the right sort of feel. I used to have a book about the buffalo soldiers ( 10 US Cav ), and it had a few desciptions of rituals they wittnessed, but I can't find it.

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Sunday, April 6, 2003 7:05 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

I suggest you also find out what you can about the Essex, a Nantucket whaler that was the inspiration for Moby Dick. The ship was rammed by a whale. There were three boats of survivors. One was lost but the two boats that made it resorted to cannibalism. One group only ate the dead. The other group started drawing lots, there were only two of these poor bastards left when they were found, gnawing on bones of their commrades. History Channel did a good show on it.

Any way good luck, I look foward to reading your fic.

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Friday, April 25, 2003 1:06 AM

MAJORFREAK

Quote:
[url= http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=8&t=1712]Fireflyfans.net[/url]
It's an interesting theory, but I think it conflicts with the underlying defination of what a Reaver is, as defined by JW. Namely, that Reavers are people that when out into the black, and the black drove them insane. It's a frightening idea that people can go that wrong. That void can suck out our humanity to that extreme. The idea that Reavers are created, artificial, somehow makes them more.... tangible, and less frightening. I think that Whedon would leave the Reaver's exact origins a mystery, if only to add to their mythic atmosphere, and therefore to their scariness.

actually, those 'reavers' reminded me alot of Privateer's 'Retro' faction - not to mention C.J.Cherryh's detailed descriptions of people who went into "hyperspace" without drugs to calm them down/zone them out.

The question remains. Is this a common symptom of hyperspace madness (the reaver/retro scavenging lifestyle) or is it a 'religion' or other organization with a base/common ground/philosophy/leaders?

[list]personally, i always figured the 'Retros' in privateer to be some sort of religion gone wild in the attempt at rationalizing the fact other sentient races challenged the "god made us in his image" spiel....As for the reavers? Always seemed to me that it was a more realistic take on the 'anti-tech' retros that seemed so campy in Privateer[/list]

I do like the theory proposed by the originator of this thread. very interesting, especially since i doubt the 'reavers' were to be some mysterious entity, but had some purpose for existing (in the plot) beyond "atmosphere"...especially since the "blue hands" were also mysterious.

the "blue hands" reminded me of the psychic division in Babylon5
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Friday, April 25, 2003 6:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Now this amazes me, since the game wasn't all that popular, that I was aware of.

I wonder just how many folks who played and loved Privateer became Firefly fans ?

One must admit, there are quite a few similarities, and I love Firefly for many of the same reasons I adored Privateer.

As for causes of the Reavers, consider how mad someone removed from civilization and humanity becomes over time even here on earth ?
Castaways on the open sea, for example...

What's so scary about the Reavers is how the seed of such a thing is inside each and every one of us, waiting only on the proper conditions to make it grow.

THAT, is what scares us, moreso than the Reavers.

-Frem

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 2:31 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

This is gona be a long rant, hope you like it.

OK, here’s what I got for "facts." There are no aliens, the Revers are the personification of the myth of the savage. This comes from JW, he said something to the effect of he loved the western idea of the evil Indians but wanted it to be pure in this. There is no underlying reality of humanity, there was no land stolen, the stories of them are totally true, they are simply evil. Although if you want to get right down to it they aren't really evil, because for that there would have to be some morals, some thought.

Here’s what I have in the way of theories. Mal must have seen Revers do what they do, it’s the only way he could possibly know. But I think that it might have been before Serenity valley. Think of it, the only thing that gets him through it is his faith in god, it makes his faith stronger because he can’t survive without believing that there is something stronger that is good, then in Serenity god shows that he isn’t there, and Mal loses all faith.

It’s probably more likely that it happened the other way around though. And that the only reason he didn’t go insane is because god’s failure, and his loss of faith (which was probably the only thing that kept him going through the war) had left him with nowhere lower to sink. Because he would have already lost the will to live, and stopped caring, seeing the atrocities would have no effect on him. After that he would have slowly regained his humanity.

What I want to know is what else is out there, Joss makes it seem like Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy and the device that showed someone the entire universe and them in comparison (I’ve forgotten what it was called but it was on Frogstar B.) That no one can survive it intact. But experience on earth has show us differently. People separated from society can take many different paths, so there might be things other than Revers.

Some people crave the isolation, and might excel in it. I doubt that, but it is possible. Others might make their own society to make up for the lack of one, and push themselves further into the void. They could think of themselves as gods, the only things in the black, and decide that space belonged to them. They might become experts in space its self, basing their religion off of the fullness of space as their bodies adapt (exposure to radiation present outside planetary atmospheres and magnetic fields would cause rapid evolution, as well as lots and lots of death) so that they can feel the magnetic and electric fields. People already can feel these things to a small extent, but if they could attune themselves to them, or see them than they wouldn’t face the nothingness.

People might also reject society and instead become more natural, the Revers are the opposite of natural. This doesn’t mean that they set down on a planet and abandon technology, but it would be possible for them to rely on instinct, rather than thought. In nature there is no seeking to expand, nor are possessions valued, there is also not sadism. Human beings operate on thought augmented by instinct, the reverse could also work. A crew wouldn’t have to know what they were doing to keep a ship flying, they would just need to know what to do. Any interaction between these weird people and outsiders would be interesting to say the least.

Because nature is all about doing as little as possible it is likely that such a group would steal food in a prepared state, or livestock, rather than eat people. It is likely they would also need to steal parts for the ship, which would be done by figuring out what was broken, tracking down another ship, and stealing the part that looked like it. People like Kaylee who can figure out machines with minimal training would be highly prized, also pilots would be in positions of power because that’s not easy to do either. I don’t know how you would work this into something but it is one course that might be taken.

My favorite possibility is the nuts ones, when people are isolated they often begin to hear an “inner voice” which is just an echo of themselves, it’s like if you try to plan out a conversation before it starts, you have to take the role of the other person too. The voice is just something your mind does to comfort you, you’re not actually crazy because you know it’s not real, and that it can stop if you just want it to. Anyway, after being stuck in a ship with just the same people, and nothing but black out the window, I bet people would be hearing voices all the time, and like it. Of course it would be easiest for the people who really were crazy, because they could easily have something that wasn’t there to stop them from dealing with the fact that they were completely alone and there was an endless nothing out the window. There would be other people on the ship but after long enough stuck with the same people most people would much rather hallucinate than spend more time with the people they’re stuck with. But here’s the fun part, if you’re a genius, or merely extremely gifted, then there is a good chance that you’re nuts. After a few generations you could easily have a ship full of crazy geniuses, and they don’t even need to be crazy in a bad way. MPDs for example (that is people with multiple personalities) are often quite sane and well adjusted, except for the fact that they are MPDs, many schizophrenics can tell the difference between what is real and what isn’t. So you could have ships of completely nuts, super geniuses who although they talk to themselves, and things that aren’t there… Well you get the idea, they could be heroes, criminals, psychics, normal type people, evangelists, whatever. Or you could have completely nuts people who act completely nuts.

There was a point to this when I started, if you got this far I congratulate you, and if you know what the point was please tell me.

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 6:05 PM

TARA

I'm surprised that no one has brought up Cabin Fever theory. It was a real danger to traders and scouts. I think the Reavers were people who went out into the black, like French & Spanish Traders and scouts who didn't turn into "mountain men" but rather the crazy men of the west. I have an aunt who lives in Alaska and she says the internet and cable are a god send. Alaska paid for her schooling so she *has* to live there as part of her payback method. She's seen co-workers go a bit south after an Alaskian winter.

With Joss, he's hypered the effect, since it's a TV show and you need real black and white lines to help outline the grey ones. Reavers are the black line. Those who've gone mad. The White line is what the show is about, where should/does it land.

As for the savageness, Canniblilism & Mutilation is usually perceved as human extream. Those in BDSM have ridged rules of contact and behaviour so transfer that and you got reavers able to fly. Same with cannabilistic tribes & cultures. You don't just eat anyone, many times your eating them to take their power or spirit into yourself to make you stronger.

Since the show was cancled and it looks like we'll never really know, I do want to point out Iris by Goo Goo Dolls. "When everything feels like the movies, Yeah you bleed just to know you're alive." It describes SI, a mental condition, Self Injury that many suffer from. Wisconson U in Madison actually has a program for awareness and treatment of people suffering from SI.

In the black with nothing to hold you down, you'd get extream. You'd have to come up with new rules and rituals, even those who reject R&R usually come back to them, just in a different form.

There is also no telling what no core containment could also be doing. Reavers may be sterile, hence their "adoption" practice. Maybe one was left behind but others taken or the one could be a rebirth ritual, like the vampire stories where a vampire has to dig himself out of his own grave before he's accepted. The booby traps were a way to protect the new Reaver or a way to punish those who would try to take their new Reaver from them.

I'm sure that Reaver pre-date and are seperate from Alliance and Brown-coats. The war took place is Simon & Zoe's lifetime so they would hardly hear "campfire" stories about them. I also think the Reaver stories are annalogus to Urban legends. Most UL's are old, just reincarnated into modern environs. Some UL's go back into the past to the black plauge and middle ages. Lots of it can be speculations and stories but Mal & Zoe have been on the run long enough to hear more stories and find out that many are true. Going back, is seems like only the core people, Simon, River, Book, little bit Inara, are the ones in the dark about Reavers. Both Wash and Jayne have an idea of Reavers.

"Futue te ipsum et caballum tuum!"

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Monday, May 5, 2003 8:53 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I tried to get across insanity as an alternitve to cabin fever. Anyway, with the whole campfire aspect you have to realize that the storys are usualy real. Vampires for example, if you lived in the 1800's you knew vampires were real, and they were everywhere. Who cared about the faxct that they stayed out of the sun and avioded garlic as an effect of raibes, or that they were biting people not to drink blood but because rabies drives 1/4 of it's victems to do so. And the fact that the people digging themselves out of thier own graves were usualy catatonics of coma victems also had no effect.

The truth is that the myth was real, there were people going around biting people, and they were driven away by garlic and sunlight, not to mention water-which was belived to cancel out magic. And there were people riseing from the grave.

The legends of the Revers could be just like that completely correct, the only thing that would be unclear would be the motives.

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