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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

I saw it again last night, sans children, and I found it much more enjoyable. Knowing a little about what is going on helps you appreciate everything much more. My opinion of this flick has gone from good to excellent. In many regards it is an epic, possibly the best of all the Trek films.

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Originally posted by OPPYH:


The Voyage Home beats it.

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Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I know this is going to go a little off topic, but am I the only one who thinks that The Voyage Home isn't that good? It's one of my least favorite Treks. I think the plot is ridiculous, their method for time travel odd (mainly the fact that the old warbird they were in was a POS spaceship), and all in all it just doesn't sit right with me. Granted, I've only seen it once or twice and I think I was about 15 at the time, but I just wasn't too impressed.

As for the new Star Trek, I saw it twice also and thought it was awesome both times. They really cranked up the stakes in this one. I just felt more invested into what was going on in the story.

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People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
the crew's interaction with 20th century people...some very funny stuff. I like the whale biologist gal a lot. I like the scenes with her and Kirk. I like the whole theme of the movie, which relates to animal extinction. It's also the movie where we get our Spock back, after his Katra was put back in at the end of Search For Spock. There's a lot of good 'ole McCoy - Spock discussions of logic and things. After this movie Spock relied less on logic, and started to appreciate his human emotions in life's equations....as he explained to his protege Valeris in Undiscovered Country. Give it another try sometime.

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Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I know this is going to go a little off topic, but am I the only one who thinks that The Voyage Home isn't that good?

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

Can anyone comment on the logic of promoting Kirk from Cadet to Captain? He bypassed all the ranks: Ensign, Lt Jr grade, Lt, Lt cmder, & Cmder to sit in the main seat.

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

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Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I know this is going to go a little off topic, but am I the only one who thinks that The Voyage Home isn't that good?

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No, you're not the only one.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Logic is in question, where field promotions are concerned.

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
I will acknowledge Star Trek as a good film but I will ask this:

Can anyone comment on the logic of promoting Kirk from Cadet to Captain? He bypassed all the ranks: Ensign, Lt Jr grade, Lt, Lt cmder, & Cmder to sit in the main seat.

When I watched that happen I thought of it as nothing more than elementry school storytelling.

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

I hate it when this happens because it represents lazy story construction.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

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You mean like when Dr. Marcus was looking for MONTHS in our galaxy for a lifeless moon or other dead form...?
Or when the Enterprise or a Klingon Bird of Prey slingshot around the sun doing WARP 9...?

Dude...relax.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

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That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more -

Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

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That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
You're certainly not the "only" one who didn't like Voyage Home. It's not generally regarded as one of the best. But for me, I liked it the most of the original movies.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

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That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.

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Did you even read what I wrote....? Again, you're talking the field commission in a time of emergency. And I agree, it works in that context, because there was no-one else to step-up.

I am talking about the end, when they officially put him in permanent command. I highly doubt there was not ONE single officer in ALL of Starfleet whith more experience than Kirk. That is where this falls apart.

A field commission is for times of emergency. And no matter how well he did with that command, he would not be given permanent command of the flagship as a cadet. It's just silly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

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That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.

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Did you even read what I wrote....? Again, you're talking the field commission in a time of emergency. And I agree, it works in that context, because there was no-one else to step-up.

I am talking about the end, when they officially put him in permanent command. I highly doubt there was not ONE single officer in ALL of Starfleet whith more experience than Kirk. That is where this falls apart.

A field commission is for times of emergency. And no matter how well he did with that command, he would not be given permanent command of the flagship as a cadet. It's just silly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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I do understand we may differ on viewpoint.
Kirk's Commission was a Battlefield Commisiion. In another Trek story, superior officers have remarked how they had difficulty reprimanding a brash Officer why had just saved their lives, and every single person on Earth was just saved by Kirk. Kirk also, after being placed In Command, effectively Commanded the Enterprise in Battle, where the stakes for all Earthdwellers, as well as all Federation Planets, were at maximum.
Also consider that, like Kirk in the future, one must step down from Admiralty to Command as Captain, and did anybody at Starfleet want to do that?
The Reins of Command are normally not best used to Halt or Slow the mustangs in your forces, but rather to merely aim them in the right direction, and see how far they go and how fast they get there. This is what the wisest of Starfleet knew, and did with Kirk in this story.

Why is nobody complaining about the promotions of Scotty, Uhura, or Bones. Bones seems most suspect - what did he contribute to the mission that prohibits another more experienced MD from being placed over him upon return to Starfleet?
Scotty, exiled to a backwash where no other human resides, suddenly the Chief Engineer on the biggest baddest Starship ever? Really? Is it because he alone was able to coax more Warp Speed from the Nacelles than anybody else, at a time and place essential to the successful completion of the mission to save all of the Federation? his ability to manipulate transporter technology, despite his naysaying superior's? His skills and abilities, tested under the greatest duress, are excatloy why he is proven to be the best possible holder of this position.
Uhura, her key skills replaced the senior comm tech on the bridge, her research and work and skills in this critical juncture are what was needed to successfully complete this mission, without which would be complete failure. This is why she would be the best comm tech on the bridge.
There comes a time when Starfleet must understand that the chairwarmer Captains they have nurtured and coddled like the 7 that just got themselves obliterated are the result of a training system which must be jettisoned in favor of these brash, competent new officers who have so bravely displayed the best Starfleet has to offer, and that time is now. The ultra-chairwarmers at Starfleet wisely understood they themselves are not the answer.

This will be the best crew to spend 5 years on a mission far away from Starfleet, exploring strange new worlds and new civilizations. The Chairwarmers cuddled at Starfleet are not the best they have to offer.

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

I do understand we may differ on viewpoint.
Kirk's Commission was a Battlefield Commisiion. In another Trek story, superior officers have remarked how they had difficulty reprimanding a brash Officer why had just saved their lives, and every single person on Earth was just saved by Kirk. Kirk also, after being placed In Command, effectively Commanded the Enterprise in Battle, where the stakes for all Earthdwellers, as well as all Federation Planets, were at maximum.

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Also consider that, like Kirk in the future, one must step down from Admiralty to Command as Captain, and did anybody at Starfleet want to do that?

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The Reins of Command are normally not best used to Halt or Slow the mustangs in your forces, but rather to merely aim them in the right direction, and see how far they go and how fast they get there. This is what the wisest of Starfleet knew, and did with Kirk in this story.

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Why is nobody complaining about the promotions of Scotty, Uhura, or Bones. Bones seems most suspect - what did he contribute to the mission that prohibits another more experienced MD from being placed over him upon return to Starfleet?
Scotty, exiled to a backwash where no other human resides, suddenly the Chief Engineer on the biggest baddest Starship ever? Really? Is it because he alone was able to coax more Warp Speed from the Nacelles than anybody else, at a time and place essential to the successful completion of the mission to save all of the Federation? his ability to manipulate transporter technology, despite his naysaying superior's? His skills and abilities, tested under the greatest duress, are excatloy why he is proven to be the best possible holder of this position.
Uhura, her key skills replaced the senior comm tech on the bridge, her research and work and skills in this critical juncture are what was needed to successfully complete this mission, without which would be complete failure. This is why she would be the best comm tech on the bridge.

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There comes a time when Starfleet must understand that the chairwarmer Captains they have nurtured and coddled like the 7 that just got themselves obliterated are the result of a training system which must be jettisoned in favor of these brash, competent new officers who have so bravely displayed the best Starfleet has to offer, and that time is now. The ultra-chairwarmers at Starfleet wisely understood they themselves are not the answer.

This will be the best crew to spend 5 years on a mission far away from Starfleet, exploring strange new worlds and new civilizations. The Chairwarmers cuddled at Starfleet are not the best they have to offer.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Now that's just some logic-strained made-up bs to rationalize a silly plot hole. Please.

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Also consider that, like Kirk in the future, one must step down from Admiralty to Command as Captain, and did anybody at Starfleet want to do that?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
They lost 7 ships. Seven. Not the whole damned fleet. There were surely other captains out there.

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
there are no viable experienced officers in San Francisco to command the Enterprise. Not one. There are only Admirals and cadets. Search the halls of starfleet academy if you'd like but you shall not find one single Commander, Lt. Commander, Lt., Lt Jr G, or an ensign. Also lets not ignore that there are no captains either: either commanding another ship, themselves shipless (teaching perhaps) or retired (Jon Archer). No sir, you cannot find anyone either on campus or off as experienced and battle tested as James T. Kirk, Cadet. Not even Spock who has 11 years in the service of starfleet.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Movie.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Now that's just some logic-strained made-up bs to rationalize a silly plot hole. Please.

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I agree, but if a movie is entertaining, like STII or STIV, I find myself able to go with it.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Storymark:
And excusing away poor writing by saying it's "just a movie" is one of the most infuriatingly lazy defenses ever.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:
And excusing away poor writing by saying it's "just a movie" is one of the most infuriatingly lazy defenses ever.

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You wanna change the way major motion pictures are written & produced, go ahead.

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Originally posted by Storymark:


Huh? And what does that have to do with my statement.....?

I wasn't talking about how they're made. I'm talking about lame excuses. I have no idea what you're going on about now.

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Originally posted by RocketJock:
it was shown that Spock could telepathically “feel” the death of a single shipload of Vulcans at great distance – how much worse to feel the death of literal billions from close orbit. It’s a wonder he wasn’t reduced to a vegetable.

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Originally posted by RocketJock:

And as to the side issue of Spock’s marooning of Kirk – I see this as the first evidence of his “Emotional Compromise”. After all, in TOS it was shown that Spock could telepathically “feel” the death of a single shipload of Vulcans at great distance – how much worse to feel the death of literal billions from close orbit. It’s a wonder he wasn’t reduced to a vegetable.

"I have been, and always shall be, your friend." -- Spock Prime

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Speaking of Archer, what happened there? Wasn't Star Trek: Enterprise set on the Enterprise? the NCC1701 prime?

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Originally posted by MacBaker:
Vulcan is a hot planet, which suggests it's close to it's star, so any moon in orbit around this "hot" planet would probably not be an ice planet.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:


Huh? And what does that have to do with my statement.....?

I wasn't talking about how they're made. I'm talking about lame excuses. I have no idea what you're going on about now.

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Movies are made by dudes like you and me, but sometimes with less technical knowledge & creativity... just connections. We gotta like 'em or not, but true genius is a rarity in big money entertainment. JJ is creative, but not a genius. Take his stuff for what it's worth.
Movies are what they are- big on looks and generally small on intellect.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Speaking of Archer, what happened there? Wasn't Star Trek: Enterprise set on the Enterprise? the NCC1701 prime? So in this movie, it was just built, right? So Archer has nt yet happpened, is that it?
Forgive my ignorance, I wasn't able to follow Enterprise much.

Am I confused about this? Is it explained?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
If someone were to use that excuse with you for a movie they loved, but you didn't, you'd find it just as weak.

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Originally posted by MacBaker:
Vulcan is a hot planet, which suggests it's close to it's star

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