Herc's Speculation about Giles in 4.10 -- Can it be true? by Poster Nutbag

Yeah, but I thought the First could only appear to one person at a time. But anyway, I hope not. Joss wouldn't be so cruel as to kill off Giles, I think.

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:42 PM

CHARLIEBLUE

I noticed that Giles did kind of lie about the First--he said it could only appear as dead people, when just in the last episode it appeared as Buffy, right?

Also: Didn't the First appear as two people at once to Angel? I thought so...

_
"HoYay! Academy. Where every exam is an oral exam."

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 3:47 PM

YEAHITSME

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBlue:
I noticed that Giles did kind of lie about the First--he said it could only appear as dead people, when just in the last episode it appeared as Buffy, right?

My guess is he can just appear as people who DIED just a small mistake...cause in a way Spike and Dru aren't really dead since they're vampire and he appeared as both.

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:01 PM

Buffy did die.

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Wednesday, December 18, 2002 6:22 PM

Did Giles actually touch anyone or anything through that whole ep? He could be the First if he is dead...wouldn't that be a smart way to railroad the Scoobies.
And, yes, Buffy died, not once, not twice, but three times...when she got shot she died right? So where's the third real slayer? And the fourth? And whose gonna warn Faith that the slayers are under attack?
So Drusilla wasn't dusted?

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:51 AM

MERLINDREA

There is a poll on the official buffy web site wether Giles is dead or not - this made me thinking even before yesterday's episode.

And also, besides Giles not touching anything, has anybody noticed that he:

- is in a really negative mood
- he was quite far away from the hole where Buffy got beaten up by the Ubervamp the first time? (I found this really odd, the fight was noisy and he just walks away?)

I mean, if Giles is really dead :-(, then it would be the perfect thing for the First to do to undermine the scoobies...

But if Giles is not really Giles, then we have only the word from the First that it can only impersonate dead people. So in that case, Giles could still be alive and just captured somewhere...

Merl

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:34 AM

YEAHITSME

Quote:
Originally posted by Nonoluna:
And, yes, Buffy died, not once, not twice, but three times...when she got shot she died right? So where's the third real slayer? And the fourth?

Joss told it many times that the slayer powers can only be passed once by each slayer so unless Faith die we won't have any new slayer

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:19 AM

Giles has to still be alive. Joss is still planning to do the spinoff show "Ripper" on the BBC someday. If he kills Giles on Buffy, that puts the kibosh on that entire series.

Giles is acting strangely, maybe he's in a kind of shock... even though he has been detached from the council, it's still something that has been important to his family for generations, and now it is destroyed. Plus, Buffy's biggest weakness has always been that she doesn't know how to fight anything she can't kill. Look at how she handled the Mayor in Season 3. She bascially just took everything he dished out until the Ascension when he was suddenly killable again. She didn't know what to do about Glory until the last episode of that season. Even when they brought her back and there was that creapy demon that kept possessing everyone... she kept trying to fight it with slayer moves, which was completely meaningless until Willow forced it to take a form she could kill.

Maybe Giles really believes that this time it is the end, and Buffy can't stop it. That could explain a bit of his defeatest attitude.

I have more faith in the Scoobs than that. I know they will find a way to at least beat the first back. I don't think they'll be able to kill it. Just as killing every slayer would upset the balance of good and evil, killing the first would do the same.

Wonder if this really is the last season if they will kill Buffy. This is certainly a worthy adversary to defeat her. Maybe she and Faith both die and Kennedy takes over as slayer/hellmouth guardian/willow's girlfriend.

Sorry, went off topic there... we were talking about Giles. :D I don't think he's dead.

______________
OH... as usual... Dear!

EDIT: About Buffy's many deaths... She didn't die last season from Warren's bullet, although Willow said she would have had she not used magicks to heal her.

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:44 AM

POSTER NUTBAG

Quote:

bobknaptor wrote:
Thursday, December 19, 2002 07:19
Giles has to still be alive. Joss is still planning to do the spinoff show "Ripper" on the BBC someday. If he kills Giles on Buffy, that puts the kibosh on that entire series.

Except that I'd heard somewhere that "Ripper" was a prequel concept... it takes place, supposedly, in Giles' pre-sunnydale days.

Then again, I may be mistaken.

El Señor Poster Nutbag

Trained gorillas. Workable prototype jetpacks, and chicks, chicks, chicks. I know that's the action I signed on for.

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:07 AM

MOJOECA

Quote:
Except that I'd heard somewhere that "Ripper" was a prequel concept... it takes place, supposedly, in Giles' pre-sunnydale days.

Unlikely. Tony's so noticeably older than he was 7 years ago. A prequel wouldn't fly, though RIPPER could be set in the time right after he left Sunnydale in season 6.

However, my feeling is if Giles is dead, there will be no RIPPER. Period. But thing is, Giles isn't dead. I'm positive about that. You don't kill off a beloved character like that -- Capt Kirk style. The axe-fall-cut-away is so not the big 'ol death scene Giles would get were he really snuffed.

My theory is that BOTN Giles is the First, and can take his form because the real Giles is unconcious somewhere. Giles/First said that it takes the form of those who have died, but omitted the unconcious rule because if he, Giles/First, is discovered, then the group would have to conclude real Giles is dead. Hopeless sitch time.

Other stupid theory: The First can take the form of Buffy. Buffy is alive now but *has* died. Perhaps Giles was clinically dead for a moment then revived.

--- Joe

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:47 AM

It just seems to me that if Giles were really the first in BOTN, then why would he be helping to protect the SiTs? If the goal of the first is to kill off the Slayer Line, then why wouldn't he *say* he's taking them to Buffy's, but instead take them to some deserted place where 50 Harbingers wait with great big daggers to finish them all off. Just doesn't make sense to me.

______________
Giles: Right. It's good to see you. Um, no need to panic.
Oz: Just a thought. Poker: not your game.

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 12:33 PM

NOVAGRASS

Quote:
Just doesn't make sense to me.

Well, The First may have plans to manipulate Buffy into helping him/her/it as Giles, get all of the "potentials" in one place at one time, and then kill them all at once. Plus, it'd have Buffy on its side...

But I also don't think that anything this obvious would be true... the way this rumor got started was in a claimed ASH quote in which he says they wouldn't let him touch anything on the set during filming. My guess is that this was leaked by ME to throw us all off the real trail. I mean, if you look at the facts, it just doesn't seem right. First, ASH would never ever ever give a clue that big to anyone unless there was a hidden motive. Second, Joss has said that Giles will face the consequences for killing Ben this season (and unless death was the consequence, we have yet to see this). Third, the clues are just too obvious ("Hey, let's not show them if Giles gets killed by the harbringer... that way we can throw them off the trail). Fourth, Ripper spinoff (and unless these rumors recently resurfaced to make us question whether Giles really is dead or not, it's a pretty sure bet that a dead Giles couldn't fill a series). And fifth, ME has been known to mislead the audiences (There's the death of Tara controversy, then there was the ambiguity of Spike's re-souling in Africa (i.e., was it a mistake he got his soul back or was it his intention all along?), etc...).

So, in the end, there are clues to lead us either way, but my gut says that Giles isn't dead.

And on an off-topic note, Who think's Principal Wood is God (or some sort of celestial being)? Think about it...

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 4:55 PM

God, huh? That's a pretty interesting theory. Although I don't see him as being some sort of "pure good" creature, since he buried Jonathan, which seems to help keep the evil secret. Maybe he's a demon kind of like the guy who showed himself to Angel to get him on his current path before Buffy was called. (it's not like me to not be able to find the specifics on an episode when I go looking for it... but I can't remember if they showed that flashback on Buffy or Angel... and when or why they would have shown it, so hopefully you'll know who I'm talking about. The guy who found Angel in the sewers living on the occassional rat.)

His little comment about mystery movies seemed awfully pointed... maybe he is a watcher... just not a very active one.

______________
Hey, you're not the Watcher of me!

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:05 PM

There's all kinds of goodness here to reply to...

First, sorry didn't know about slayer lineage restricted to one...

Second, I couldn't remember about dying from the bullet, thank you...

Tara couldn't be brought back because it was a natural death...the Harbingers don't bring a natural death so maybe they'll bring him back from the dead.

That's it for now...

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:39 PM

KOBAYASHI

I've got a different theory about Giles - its a slight of hand trick. We're being set up by Mutant Enemey to watch Giles. What we're not noticing is whats going on in the background. Sure, Giles just stood around most of the time - but so did the SIT's... what if Morphy WAS in this episode - but not as GILES?

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:45 PM

MOJOECA

Quote:
Originally posted by Nonoluna:

Tara couldn't be brought back because it was a natural death...the Harbingers don't bring a natural death so maybe they'll bring him back from the dead.

That's it for now...

Cassie and Joyce both died naturally. The First can take their form. Tara didn't come back very simply because Amber didn't want to do it. But if we must fanwank, I'll say that the First calculated that it would be easier to convince Will thru a messenger to commit suicide with the promise of reuniting with Tara, than Tara herself trying to convince Will to do the deed.

EDIT: OKAY. Just realized you were talking about resurrection. I'm a complete idiot. Ignore me.

--- Joe

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:45 PM

THELEFTHAND

Why does Giles have to be the First? I believe that Joyce wasn't the First. Somehow she found a way back and is doing her small part to help Buffy. Can't Giles be the same way? Personally, I think Giles is dead, BUT the Buffy staff is aware of all of us who analyze everything, trying to figure the season out in advance. This could very well be nothing more than ME playing evil games with us. Speaking of evil, does anyone else hope that the principal is not? He could have taken Jonathan's body so no one else would stumble across it. Remember, he doesn't want the kids to see evil, 'cause you can't unsee it.

Was anyone else EXTREMELY upset that they were trying to drown a creature that DOESN"T BREATHE?!? Unless, Spike got the special soul that allows him to; won't Angel be jealous.

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:54 PM

MOJOECA

Spike drowning! So pissed me off. Vampires can, of course, voluntary inhale and exhale (to smoke for example), but if they're head's beneath water I'm sure they know to keep their friggin' mouths shut! I understand torturing the vampire by filling his lungs with water would be pretty effective, but you would have to hold is mouth open and poor the water in. OTOH, you would have to somehow force him to inhale it, rather than swallow, so perhaps that wouldn't work either.

You ME loons!

--- Joe

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Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:30 PM

NOVAGRASS

Unless it was holy water. Though, holy water traditionally burns, right? Or maybe it was more psychological torture... showing Spike that no matter what he does, he's still not a man, just a demon who doesn't need breath. Whatever, it didn't really bug me that much... and it was written by Doug Petrie and Marti Noxon, and they know Buffy lore enough to have a decent explanation.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Friday, December 20, 2002 2:24 AM

KITHKILL

Anyone else been to see the Two Towers? Gandalf's return? Anyone feel a resonance between that and a possible reason for Giles' behaviour? That scene where Buffy crawls out of the hole, and Giles looks down, encircled by a halo of brilliant light from the rising sun?

If there's a First Evil, what are the chances of a First Good? That'd explain Buffy's mom, Principal Woods (who I STILL don't believe is evil) and Giles.

If we take what he said as truth, that the First can only appear as someone who's passed away, then we can still have Dru and Buffy as faces of the evil, as they've both (at some point) passed away, even if they came back later. If a hypothetical First Good operates in the same manner (and that'd be a nice symmetry), then Giles could be dead after all, but returned to the Scoobs as a facet of the First Good. I know there's a lot of maybe's in this, but if you assume the existence of a First Good, the rest falls into place very naturally. Almost too naturally, actually :-) Joss never gives us what we expect, so who knows?

Here's a weird one, though. Think back. Pretty much all the recent episodes have taken place sequentially. I.e. there are no gaps between the episodes, each one picks up right where the last one left off, with no explained lapses of time. All the events have occurred over the space of a few days. And now it's Xmas, when by rights the timeline of the show should still have it a month or two back. OK, you think - maybe it's a massive continuity error. But if that were the case they'd try to cover it up, not draw attention to it - like Buffy blatantly does, for no obvious reason - "I can't believe it's December already". Is there something weird going on here? Where's the missing month or two?

Or maybe I'm overthinking it. I just can't see why they'd draw attention to such an obvious error of continuity...

Cheers,
Kithkill

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Friday, December 20, 2002 5:04 AM

I really like the idea of a FirstGood. It makes perfect sense because without good, evil cannot exist.
And I'm another who'll be really disappointed if the principal is nasty, not that I have any ideas about him that are original...

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Friday, December 20, 2002 9:47 AM

ZEKE023

Buffy is dead. That's why Spike can hit her.

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Friday, December 20, 2002 10:58 AM

I don't think that Joyce is really Joyce. She wouldn't be such a fatalist if it were. Joyce may not have always wanted Buffy to fight, in fact often she tried to get her not to. But she never said "don't fight because it's hopeless" it was usually more along the lines of "I don't want you to die" or "why don't you let Faith fight instead." Joyce wouldn't say "Evil has always been around, and therefore no need to fight." She may not be the first, but she's not Joyce.

______________
It's fruitless. No fruit for Buffy.

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Friday, December 20, 2002 11:00 AM

Buffy died... but she's not dead. She's living breathing heart beating girl. She just has a deep, tropical, cellular tan.

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Friday, December 20, 2002 12:37 PM

Quote:
I've got a different theory about Giles - its a slight of hand trick. We're being set up by Mutant Enemey to watch Giles. What we're not noticing is whats going on in the background. Sure, Giles just stood around most of the time - but so did the SIT's... what if Morphy WAS in this episode - but not as GILES

I think you may be right. Also, the SiT who got killed was the one that believed in Buffy the most, and I bet if one of the SiTs was Morphy (It's most likely Kennedy I think) it would try to kill off the strongest part of their "army".

Quote:
Joyce wouldn't say "Evil has always been around, and therefore no need to fight." She may not be the first, but she's not Joyce.

Yeah, I agree, cause if somehow dead people could come back as a ghost or whatever Joyce is in the buffyverse, Buffy would've done that when she died. I think the Joyce in Buffy's dream was just Buffy haveing a dream. Maybe it's some sort of psychological thing where she tries to convince herself its useless to fight, and that she should just give up (like in that epi in season 5), but then she got beat up by the uber-vamp and she changed her mind.

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Friday, December 20, 2002 12:54 PM

ZEKE023

buffy is dead enough for spike to hit her with his chip still in.

Besides the Big Bad appears as Spike and Drusilla.. both of which are dead in as much as they are vamps... but still wandering around the earth in undeath.

But the First NEVER appears as anyone who is alive (i.e. someone who's never been dead - as buff has... twice).

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Friday, December 20, 2002 6:06 PM

Could that be because the resurrection spell was interupted so something didn't come along with Buffy? Just thinking....

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Monday, December 23, 2002 11:09 AM

XANTACLAUS

Ok, so this is my first post here. I'm a Joss fan and thus would love to see all three series continue as long as possible. Before I get to my point about Giles, let me just say a few things about my thoughts on Buffy in general so you can see where I'm coming from. I like all the seasons of Buffy. I'm not a Glory-hater or Dawn-hater or Riley-hater - I only started watching the series in its fourth season so I had to catch up with FX. If I had to give a least favorite season it would have to be the first for its all-too-often over-the-toppiness. Now I admit some of the other seasons have had their clunkers - some more than others - but as I said, I like all the seasons. In fact, some of the early eps this season have been clunkers IMO, a higher proportion too than other seasons' early eps IMO. OTOH, when the eps hit it right this season, they really hit it right. Ok, I only watched ep 7-10 yesterday and I happened to read this thread afterward. I know this has probably been brought up in other boards but I didn't see it here (and I don't have time for boards usually but it's the holidays and all), but one thing I noticed over and over is that Giles wants Buffy to sleep. Now what happens when Buffy sleeps? She sees and talks to her mom, right? Now this is either evil or good, but it happens. Now ASH's character, whoever he is, wants Buffy to go to sleep [remimnded me of Tom Servo in the one MST3K ep continually shouting "SLEEP!" to make fun of a hypnotist]. So IMO, ASH's character knows about what happens and wants her to talk more with her mom. So what's his motive and her mother's motive? Good/Evil? Don't know.
Speculation #1 - They are evil. This doesn't make sense to me because: 1. It's too obvious. 2. I don't think what her mom is telling her is necessarily counterproductive. Perhaps Buffy's declaration at the end of this ep is exactly what the first wants...
Speculation #2 - They are good. 1. The series borrows a lot from Christianity obviously. First season, Buffy dusts Master. Second season, Buffy defeats Angel and pushes him into Hell dimension. Third season, Buffy kills Mayor with explosion. Fourth season, Mega-Buffy rips out Adam's "heart." Fifth season, Buffy saves world with self-sacrifice. Sixth season, Xander saves world with love. Now, if we look at the Bible story [note: I am not trying to inject any religious views here, just trying to see parallels, please no flames], Jesus died and thus A. Rid the world of "real death" - we could now be saved from oblivion - Well, seasons 1 and 2 see "death" being killed in the forms of dead entities being defeated. B. Season 3 sees the killing of a snake - common baddie in the Bible. C. Season 4 has three Scoobs gathered (in his name?) to give buffy the power to defeat someting with the namesake of the original man who co-committed original sin. D. Now, that being said, if we take these last three seasons (5,6,7) we may see a pattern of the story of the crucifiction being used piecemeal each season. Fifth season has Buffy using self-sacrifice to stop the dimension walls from crumbling - self-sacrifice being one aspect of Jesus's crucifiction. Sixth season has Xander save the world through love - love being a reason Jesus dies for us. Because He loves us so much, He dies on a cross for us. Seventh season - what other aspect of the crucifiction have they not done? (Not that I can remember) Well, Jesus didn't fight back, he took it all and won the day through non-action. Is this the key to this season? Winning through peace and non-action? I don't know, but that's one speculation. 2. Perhaps ASH's character can't tell her everything for some reason - perhaps he is bound by something so that he can only suggest things "get some rest" (so that she can talk to her mother) but cannot tell her everything he knows - that this peace angle must be found by Buffy alone.
Well, those are the things I'm tossing around. And it doesn't matter to me whether anyone is dead on this show because as we have seen, it is possible in the Buffy/Angelverse to bring people back from the dead - I know the Tara stipulations - but I also know if Joss wants a character back, a loophole is always there waiting to be written. Think Spock.
As for Giles not being able to hold things - I'd have to rewatch the ep, but doesn't Giles pull out a pipe or something after Buffy goes down into the tree lot hole? And does he take his glasses off at all in this ep? (I can't recall if he does or doesn't)
BTW, can someone tell me what the deal is with why Willy is never on any more? Is it some sort of contractutal thing with "Becker" or does he just not want the work? He's obviously still alive since he was referenced this season.
BTW #2, where's Amy? - she could help out with the magic situation as long as Willow is kept in check. Why not ask her for help with location spells. And Giles (if it's him) can perform a locator spell I'd think.
BTW #3, when Buffy gives her rallying speech and gets all gung-ho, why does she make the allusion that the people in the house are the only hope? Did everyone forget that Angel is a pretty swell force for good? Did they lose the number for Angel Investigations? Did they get a flier with the pizza place number instead? Come on, at least they could MENTION the Angel-Scoobs as a resource. And Oz and Riley, for that matter.
BTW #4, why not use the Mega-Buffy spell again to fight the super-vamp?
OK, I'll give it a rest now. If I've made any mistakes in my facts, please point them out.

"But if they turn the record over, won't we all fall off?"

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Monday, December 23, 2002 11:38 AM

This is all interesting speculation. I like it. not sure if I agree, but it's always fun to read another take.

Re: Giles pipe/glasses. He didn't have a pipe, that I saw throughout the episode. However, he does pull his glasses out of his pocket and put them on when Buffy falls into the cavern. I've never seen Giles walking around without his glasses on... wonder why they made the decision to have him wandering around without them, and to make such a pointed gesture of him grabbing them and putting them on?

Other than that, not so much as a friendly shoulder chuck, not so much as a single research book. No Giles contact with anyone or anything that I was able to spot in the 3 times I watched this episode.

Someone mentioned Willy the Snitch this season? I don't remember that. He hasn't been around for a couple seasons, that I can recall. Seems like we've seen a couple other bartenders around in the few times they've been into the demon bar (which no longer seems to have the "Willy's Place" neon sign).

#2, Amy... invisotext on:

Select to view spoiler:

lots of the spoiler sites have said that Amy will make an appearance very soon and may either throw a monkey wrench into things or help out... it's unclear so far.

#3, Angel Investigations:
Not sure why they haven't mentioned it. Or why Angel investigations haven't mentioned getting a Slayer involved in their big apocolypse. however (more inviso-text)

Select to view spoiler:

Wanda on Eonline has hinted that the 2 big uglies are connected in some way and this will become clear soon.

, although I'm not sure how much to trust her, as she's the only one saying it so far.

As for Joyce, I still say it's not her, whether she be good or evil, I don't think she's Joyce. And I'm pretty sure that Giles is really Giles, and ME is just messing with us by not letting him touch anyone or anything.

______________
One time you died, and I ended up a Mexican.

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Monday, December 23, 2002 3:55 PM

NOVAGRASS

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:

#3, Angel Investigations:
Not sure why they haven't mentioned it. Or why Angel investigations haven't mentioned getting a Slayer involved in their big apocolypse. however (more inviso-text)
Select to view spoiler:
Wanda on Eonline has hinted that the 2 big uglies are connected in some way and this will become clear soon.
, although I'm not sure how much to trust her, as she's the only one saying it so far.

As for Joyce, I still say it's not her, whether she be good or evil, I don't think she's Joyce. And I'm pretty sure that Giles is really Giles, and ME is just messing with us by not letting him touch anyone or anything.

I guess spoiler tags are needed

Select to view spoiler:

I'm telling you, the image of the being Willow summoned is the spitting image of Angel's Beast.

My theory about Joyce is this:

Joyce is really Joyce. Though, her message against destroying The First may be more telling than we realize. During "Conversations With Dead People," in The First's little manifesto, he/she/it declares that it has thrown off the mortal coil of balance between good and evil. Perhaps Buffy isn't meant to kill The First Evil... but to somehow subdue it... or even take its place (I won't go into this theory... it's too far-fetched anyway... it gets to be a bit "Spawn"-y). The balance between good and evil story has been done before, and every time it has been done, it's always been implied that a balance is needed to keep the world running. Since the First has thrown away this ideal (I'd like to think it's due in large part to Buffy's proclaimation in Amends for the first to get over itself... that'd be fun

), maybe it's Buffy's job to preserve the balance.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Monday, December 23, 2002 10:20 PM

XANTACLAUS

Don't remember which episode, but I'm pretty sure Xander said something along the lines of, "Should we go down to the bar and shake down Willy for information?" But I don't tape eps so I can't verify it. Maybe the giant underground worm ep?

"I wouldn't belong to a club that would have me as a member." - Groucho Marx

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 3:08 PM

TERAPH

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
God, huh? That's a pretty interesting theory. Although I don't see him as being some sort of "pure good" creature, since he buried Jonathan, which seems to help keep the evil secret.

I look at the Johnathan thing in a different light after this episode. Woods talks about experiencing evil and being changed by it.

Maybe he had some experience with evil and is

a) Trying to block it out by getting rid of those things that remind him of it.

b) Getting rid of the evidence of evil so his students don't encounter it and be changed by it. Maybe this is why he hired Buffy: so she could get a line on bad things and stop them before students (i.e., children) get hurt/traumatized.

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 3:11 PM

TERAPH

Quote:
Originally posted by Nonoluna:
Tara couldn't be brought back because it was a natural death...the Harbingers don't bring a natural death so maybe they'll bring him back from the dead.

In what way is death by the Harbingers not natural? Tara's death by bullet was natural, why wouldn't death by sharp knife also be natural?

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Wednesday, December 25, 2002 3:20 PM

TERAPH

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
I guess spoiler tags are needed
Select to view spoiler:
I'm telling you, the image of the being Willow summoned is the spitting image of Angel's Beast.

I don't know that the spoiler tags are needed. What I do know is that the demonic manifestation of the First in "Amends" and its manifestion out of Willow in this episode look identical. But neither reminded me of the LA problem any more than Moloch ("I Robot, You Jane") does.

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Thursday, December 26, 2002 4:43 AM

ZEKE023

Okay... my theories.

1.) GILES IS DEAD.
I watched the last episode again and he touched nothing - not only this but he cringes from the door when coming back from fighting the uber-vamp. Buffy notices and closes it without thinking. Whether good or evil, I'm almost positive that giles is dead.

2.) The principle is good.
He may be a watcher (we need one of those on the hell mouth), or he may be just a third party helper. I think he knows that Buffy is the slayer too... he hired her too readily. Principles don't have the authority to do that. He had other intentions.

3.) I don't know what the hell is up with Joyce, but it should be mentioned that she was the only ghost in the talking with the dead episode that had a big black thing trying to keep her at bay... definately not like the manifestations of the First.

4.) There better damn well be some sort of Buffy /Angel crossover!

-Zeke

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Friday, December 27, 2002 7:13 PM

I figured that because the Harbingers aren't human, that qualifies it as an unnatural death. Then again, I've been wrong before...

Nice idea about Joyce, true she was held back so something is different about her...

Lastly, because Buffy and Angel are on different networks the likelihood of crossover is very difficult. Willow went to tell them about Buffy but when Buffy returned she talked about seeing Angel...:-( I think it would be a good thing too though.

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Monday, December 30, 2002 2:21 PM

The harbingers aren't human? I thought they were.... just self-mutilated alphabit eyed humans.

______________
That way lies spooky carnival death.

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Monday, December 30, 2002 6:28 PM

Now that you mention it I'm not sure...they didn't look human and they don't act human...I don't know...

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Monday, January 6, 2003 3:22 PM

STOPCALLINGMESHIRLEY

Okay. Deep breath. My theories:

Joyce: I think the Joyce thing is evil. Big black thing just to play with Dawn's mind. Definnitely don't see Buffy turning against Dawn, and even if she did by some weird chain of events, that's not the way to help the situation, Joyce.

Giles: That's not him. Probably the First. Someone on another site said that he thought he remembered he and Ethan Rayne playing with death in their younger days. Maybe, like Buffy, he's been dead, too? But he's still alive, tied up somewhere? For what purpose, I have no idea. *And, as a side note, I have believed forever that the first season thing should not have counted. Thousands of people have "died" if you count resuscitation as resurrection. But that's beyond my powers. Just saying it's easier to die than most people give you credit for.

Wood: Here I'm lost. I have no frickin' clue. Evil, or thinks Buffy's evil? I don't think he's out to help her, though it's possible they're on the same side.

Crossovers: Don't think it's gonna happen, though I'd dearly love it. Afraid the most we'll get is an offscreen phonecall regarding Faith, since she's scheduled back. Angel & Co. are a bit busy with their own Apocalypse.

You are strange and offputting.

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Tuesday, January 7, 2003 6:04 AM

POSTER NUTBAG

stopcallingmeShirley wrote:

Quote:

Wood: Here I'm lost. I have no frickin' clue. Evil, or thinks Buffy's evil? I don't think he's out to help her, though it's possible they're on the same side.

Several spoiler sources throughout the web have stated the following about Wood (of course, take them all with grains of salt):

Select to view spoiler:

1) his mother was Nikki, the Slayer Spike had killed (his 2nd), on the subway in mid-70's New York (shown in flashbacks a few seasons ago). Remember that the leather duster that Spike wears, he stole from that dead slayer.

2) the First Evil has been appearing to Wood in the form of Nikki ('mom - is that you?') and will tell him that Spike killed her.

3)Buffy & Wood will go on a date!

Tension much?

El Señor Poster Nutbag

An Earthquake, wrapped up in a hurricane, nestled in a box of tsunamis.

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Tuesday, January 7, 2003 8:50 AM

About the wood spoilers...

Select to view spoiler:

Everyone has been talking on the spoiler sites about how it doesn't make any sense that Wood could be Nikki's son because the timeline is off... but it sounds feasible to me. Nikki was killed in 1977. Wood looks mid thirties-ish to me. Which means he would have been born late 60's, early 70's. Let's say Wood is 35. That means he was born in 1968, he would have been 9 when Nikki died. She looked older than the average, newly called slayer to me. Maybe, like Buffy, she'd managed to survive a lot longer than expected. And if she had Wood early in life, say when she was 15 or 16, that would mean she was 24 or 25 when she died. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. They've never said Buffy is the longest running slayer of all time. Just that she's one of the best slayers. With Nikki not living on the hellmouth, maybe it's not as treacherous to slay elsewhere.

What do you guys think? does my math work for you?

______________
Wood: Talk like that is taken pretty seriously where I come from.
Buffy: The hood?
Wood: Beverly Hills... which is a hood.

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Tuesday, January 7, 2003 1:47 PM

POSTER NUTBAG

bobknaptor wrote:

Quote:
About the wood spoilers...
(a whole bunch of cut additional spoilage)
What do you guys think? does my math work for you?

I'm with you... I never understood the big fuss about the age thing... the timeline always made perfect sense to me.

El Señor Poster Nutbag

Trained gorillas. Workable prototype jetpacks, and chicks, chicks, chicks. I know that's the action I signed on for.

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Tuesday, January 7, 2003 4:55 PM

ROBERTSPARLING

I just watched Buffy (and was surprised to find Miranda from Lizzie Maguire as one of the potential Slayers, though it bugs me that her name is "Indigo," no last name, as if she was Cher) and I saw something that may or may not bear on Giles' fate. In the beginning scenes, we see Giles, and he is clearly leaning on something: possibly a couch or some such thing. The point is, would leaning count as "affecting the physical plane?" In the scenes from a few weeks ago, he was never pictured in any position other than standing up or walking, so I am slightly puzzled.

And I'm positive at this moment that Giles is NOT the First. Even if the First had wanted to see the "Eye Thing" to see if it gave any indication of how to defeat the First, it would have tried to keep Anya from getting the information too, by saying something like, "No Anya, you stay here in case the portal closes and it need be re-opened!" or seomething akin to that. If Giles is "dead" he's a ghosty with the best of intentions.

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Tuesday, January 7, 2003 5:37 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Ok, as for Wood specualtion, here's my 2 cents:

Select to view spoiler:

In "Tales of the Slayer," Nikki does not appear to have a Watcher... but that is off topic. What if Wood is the son of Nikki and Li?"

________________

If I bet wrong, I'm dead. If I'm right, it's all about the pain.
I'm right.

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Wednesday, January 8, 2003 6:48 AM

MERLINDREA

I am also inclined to believe that Giles is not the First, but just for the sake of the argument:

The First would know why it suddenly has the power to attack Buffy. It would also know that this specific reason would be very hard for Buffy to take - Buffy would think its her fault. She might even try to kill herself (maybe this is even a hint how the series will end?) to make things right.

So logically it would be in the best interest of the First to make Buffy aware of this - and who is better in speaking unwanted truths than Anya? Also have in mind it was Giles who wanted to go to the Oracle (against Anya's wish) and it was Giles again interpreting the facts to Anya.

Whatever is correct, Joss keeps it interesting for us :-).

On a side note: it seems the First can be identified as such because a real person cannot touch it (Thats why Spike knew it was the real Buffy). So why doesn't the gang start touching each other when they meet?

Merl

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Wednesday, January 8, 2003 7:39 AM

HJERMSTED

I suspect something is up with Giles. However I feel, in the purest Whedon tradition, we are being led to think it's one thing (Giles is dead and the First is presently using his form) when in fact something different and unexpected is happening/has happened to Giles. What is happening to him I suspect is somehow Coven related. (which leads me to a seperate question: are we going to meet any of these limey witches?)

Don't forget, Whedon has been in talks with the BBC to make a series based on the Rupert Giles character. I suppose a Ripper series could be a prequel if necessary, but I'm hoping it's present day which would seem to require a living Giles.

mattro

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Wednesday, January 8, 2003 11:00 AM

MERLINDREA

Yes, but even if the Giles we are seeing right now is not the true Giles, then this does not necessarily mean Giles is dead. He could have died for a short time, been reanimated and lies in Coma in a hospital, for instance.

And, secondly, we only know from Giles himself, that the first is only able to repersonate dead people.

However, I agree with you that Joss just wants us on a false trail - but its an interesting trail to speculate about

By the way: when did Buffy, Xander and Willow learn to telepath?

Merl

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Wednesday, January 8, 2003 11:42 AM