So whaddaya think of season 7? by JenDandy

BUFFYVERSE

So whaddaya think of season 7?

POSTED BY: JENDANDY
UPDATED: Friday, February 11, 2005 06:11
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VIEWED: 8326
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Tuesday, September 21, 2004 5:25 PM

I thought it was the worst season ever.

The Potentials, while a really great idea, were more annoying as hell. There were too many of them for a lot of character development so we couldn't really come to care for any of them and some HAD to have those awful British 'accents'. Not to mention Willow falling for Potential Kennedy LESS THAN A FRIGGIN YEAR after her 'soulmate' has died.

The First was the worst Big Bad ever because all it could do was taunt you...and turn into a dead person or two. If I want some quality Big Bad taunting, I'll watch Angelus in season 2 thanksverymuch.

There were too many episodes where it seemed like not a lot really happened. Buffy gets even more irritatingly superior (even admitting she felt she was 'better than everyone' in one episode) and gives about a billion too many Speeches of The Day, which gets old.

Caleb was a crap villian too, as much as I think Nathan is great in Firefly.

The plus side? Chosen was a pretty fitting and emotional end to the series, everyone starts to treat poor Dawn like a teenager instead of a 5-year-old, and there were some pretty cool moments throughout the season (Faith's return, Dawn thinking she may be a potential, more Spike flashbacks...)

-Sig Rebel-

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Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:29 AM

IDEFIX

I really liked season 7 so there's not so much I'd agree with except for the Dawn issue.

I never got why Dawn was treated like a little kid all the time. she was 15, when she was introduced in S5 and that's the ame age Buffy was called as a slayer in the movie. Buffy, Willow and Xander were 16 in season 1 the same age Dawn was in season 6. they went to the Bronce at night to dance like normal 16 year olds do. they should probably have been home by 23:00 or so but never were due to slaying-issues but they didn't get kept at home with a baby-sitter to watch over their every step and they didn't need it either. they were treated like almost grown ups and they behaved like almost grown ups. making mistakes and still learning but not like little kids.

it was no wonder Dawn was annoying, if I were treated like a 5 year old when actually being 15 I'd have been annoying too. 15 year olds are the ones doing the baby-sitting not the ones being baby-sitted.

I think they screwed that up. either they should have had her being no more than 10 at the most or they should have treated her really differently.

just needed to vent, sorry.

Idefix

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Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:47 AM

WINTERFELL

I agree it was the worst season out of all of them. i think with Amber refusing to come back, it really hurt willows story line. Dawn was an annoying mistake since her first appearance. Loved anything with spike in it though. I really liked Caleb as a villian and the return of the first was a good choice for a final villian in my oppinion. The potnetials were crap, and though i understand why they had them after watching the last ep, I think it could have been done so much better and without the damn speaches every episode.

Overall, i am glad SMG left the buffyverse forever and spike went to angel (season 5 was great), and I am looking forward to the next show and hoping it's an amalgamation of the remaining characters.

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Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:31 AM

MAUGWAI

I couldn't disagree more. The fact that Buffy felt all superior and made rousing speeches all the time, the fact that the potentials were often personalityless chattle, those were both things that were harped on. Buffy treated the potentials like cattle because that's how she saw them. That's why we never got deep into their personalities. It didn't matter. They were nameless girls. But in the end, when they became powerful, that's when they got their individual moments to be junior Buffys.

One thing I really liked about this season is how coherent it was. Every episode bled into the next. They flowed and carried the same major themes of knowing your place in the world and and choosing to stay in it. This whole season was about the choices we make and how tempted we often are to run from our fears, and it was amplified by the finale.

That's what makes The First interesting. It's not some scary ugly demon who's easy to tell apart. The First is our greatest fear, the personal insecurities we run from. That's what makes it scary.

Something else I find interesting is that while Buffy and her crew were experiencing all this over a few weeks, Angel's crew was doing the same thing over in L.A. This season was compact on both fronts.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:48 PM

JENDANDY

IDEFIX you nailed it with what you said about Dawn's character. Someone younger cast as the part would have made much more sense. A 'kid sister' as she was so often called, is supposed to be a kid right? Even in the beginning, Dawn is a teenager, on the verge of becoming a fully-fledged adult in a few years. The way she was treated more as an equal in season 7 should have been the way she was treated in the previous years. Buffy had her fun at Dawn's age and so did Willow and Xander - so her not being a slayer is no excuse for her not to be able to do the things they all did.

-Sig Rebel-

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Wednesday, September 22, 2004 8:36 PM

OPPYH

Season 7 was a great season for Buffy, an OK season for Xander, and a horrible season for Willow. For Willow, the Kennedy thing was probably the biggest mistake in all the seasons of Buffy. Tara was a sweet, warm person, and the chemistry between her and Willow was great. Kennedy was rude, pushy, and completely wrong for Willow, if for the only reason being there was absolutely no chemistry whatsoever. When Joss spoke about the way he wanted to go with season 7, at Wizard World in Chicago he broke my heart. In the 18th ep. of season 7 Buffy was to have one wish. anything she wished for would come true. Toward the end of the episode she brings Willow to a closet opens it, and tells her to look at a new pair of shoes in the closet. Willow kind of upset asks her of all the things she could have wished for it was a pair of shoes? Buffy says no you dummy, and walks away. When Willow turns around, Tara is standing in front of her. Then the cut to willows reaction, which my guess would have been very powerful, and the greatest Willow moment of all. It would have been one of the best episodes of Buffy, probably right up there with the Body, or The Gift. If only they could have got Amber Benson back. Damn those contract negotiations.

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Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:10 PM

GROUNDED

I agree with Jendandy - S7 was rubbish. I still think S6 was worse but hey let's not split hairs ;)

The main reason S7 was so bad was that nothing really happened. They spent the entire season in Buffy's house (which the First could have sent some goons to blow up at any time for crying out loud) and wasted episode after episode on half stories. Spike's insanity, which could have been a great story as well as a window into Angel's character, lasted all of two episodes - a terrible waste. Xander was related to the status of 'almost as pointless as Dawn', we had an out of character Giles and the ultimate demise of the character that was Buffy. Faith came back and said 'yo' a lot. And to cap it all they ended the year with the biggest deus ex machina double-whammy in the history of television.

Of course there were one or two bright spots:

Jonathon and Andrew in CWDP
The guest appearances of villains past
Holden in CWDP
....um that's it.

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Thursday, September 23, 2004 6:05 AM

CAPTAINCDC

I really liked season 7 for many of the reasons stated above and many more which unfortunately I don't have enough time to elaborate on at this point. But I will rank it:
Buffy Seasons
1. S2
2. S3
3. S6
4. S4
5. S7
6. S5
7. S1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:31 AM

THRAWN

The difference between 6 and 7 was that they knew what they wanted to do in 6. They had a goal, they had a story, and every episode was important in that story. It was a bad story (debatably), but it was definitely planned.

Season 7 just seemed meandering and incompetent. Seemed like they had no idea what they wanted to do, and like someone else said spent episode after episode doing half-stories. The theme was a good theme (when it existed at all), and the villain had potential, it was just never realized. Nothing in the whole entire season was as dramatic as CWDP, the 7th episode.

That said, Drew Goddard nearly singlehandedly saved the season. Selfless, CWDP, Never Leave Me, Lies My Parents Told Me, Dirty Girls - all brilliant episodes. It's too bad the overall story was so haphazard and unrealized - they really had some talent here.

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Friday, September 24, 2004 12:15 AM

JENDANDY

Ooh wouldn't it have been great if that Tara scene had happened? She's one of my favorite characters.

Since someone else posted their season rankings, I'll post mine too, I like making lists.

1. Season 2
2. Season 6 (either love it or hate it, I guess)
3. Season 3 (technically it IS better than season 6 though)
4. Season 1
5. Season 5
6. Season 4
7. Season 7 (ya better believe it!)

-Sig Rebel-

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Tuesday, October 5, 2004 3:13 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Season 7.

Given that previous Buffy seasons were so strong, it's not surprising seven came up short. I think the fact that Joss was working on two other show's at the time, is evident of the drop in the storyline for the season arc.

The idea of the potentials never sat well for me, as Buffy is the real Heroine of this show, and aside from her faithful siddekicks of Giles, Willow and Xander. It was she who saved the day.

The shift in strength to a number of potentials - was just too convenient a resolution. And the sudden revelation that Willow had enough power to make every potential a Slayer rendered the whole purpose of having a slayer pointless. Why not just have Willow save the day? I didn't get that, maybe I missed something?

Also what was with that axe type thing? There had been no previous mention of a 'super weapon' in any past Slayer lore, yet now it was paramount!

No there are many other things but I can see this going very in depth and I don't think thats needed.

However there are some gems in season 7, that I couldn't do without. Andrew's video diary is priceless, as is the one where Dawn is haunted in the house. D.B as the Principal and son of a Slayer was a nice twist on the Spike tale, but really underdeveloped.

Season favourites

1. Season3 - so many threads tied up. Angel moves on. And Oz too!
2. Season2 - Spike and Drew. Totally inspired
3. Season1 - Just charming and a fun ride.
4. Season4 - Well it had Hush the best ever episode.
5. Season6 - Buffy in self distruct.
6. Season5 - Dawn revealed from season 3 and 4. Very smart. And Buffy dies.
7. Season7 - Andrew and D.B.

I still think it should all have concluded with season five though - that would have been for me the perfect ending.

TheSomnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, October 5, 2004 6:16 AM

ARAWAEN

The problems I had with season 7, I attribute to the fact that while the First is a great villian in principle, it is not a good choice for a heroine whose powers are essentially physical, you can't beat down a ghost.

The First's strength is that it can really cause a person to doubt themselves. It can appear selectively and taunt a particular victim with all their own mistakes and regrets. It goads a person into doing evil to protect their own ego and to stop others from discovering their weaknesses and past deeds.

The First should have been the ultimate tempter and conniver but it ended up being kind of stupid, tipping its hand far to soon and being reduced to the nag that can do nothing but taunt.

IMO, Caleb was added because the season needed a big bad to beat down. Like the first he would have been more effectively used as an intelligent and cunning villian rather than uber powerful.

While I have only watched season 7 once, I currently hold it as my least favorite Buffy season because of so much missed potential (no pun intended).

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

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Wednesday, February 9, 2005 1:16 PM

THIEFJEHAT

I'm glad I found this thread. Buffy season 7 is a topic that has layed heavy upon my mind. I had a violent and extreme reaction to this season. I felt the same way the night I walked out of matrix reloaded, a film that followed a wonderous work of art but as a film itself failed to deliver. Buffy season 7 is in a similar place. I have carefully considered and compiled what I believe to be the worst things this season presented in order of extremes. I'll follow up with a few redeaming qualities to prove I'm not all angry.

1. The worst thing this season did was violate the character of Willow. I hold violations of character to be the worst thing a writer can do to a film/TV show. For as much as I love Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy, I cannot forgive him for allowing Farimir to sucumb to the temptation of the ring in The two towers and for making Sam abandon his master in The ROTK. Those were clear violations of character. Likewise, Willow giving up her grief over her soulmate for a slip of a girl (16 y/o. Willow is 22ish) was absurd. They had such a great character in Willow. A girl who was a mouse and found her voice over 6 years then was subjected to, and survived, great evil made for a rich wonderful character. I was excited at the season's start when she was shown to be our familar timid Willow just off the plane but then dark and violent when defending against Anya's heart-eating spider demon. What a great juxtaposition. She was totally set up for her own show, and what a great show it would have been. To violate that with kennedy was terrible. It was the worst thing season 7 did.

2. I hate throw away characters. They serve only to break my Suspention of Disbelief. Caleb was a mistake. Now I love Nathan totally, and his acting was great. But the character was wrong and too easily defeated after being built up as some great big bad. Also to be considered is the fact that Caleb existed solely because Nathan had a contracted number of episodes to fulfill. So, just like Gina as Jasmine in Season 4 Angel, Caleb is around for exactly the number of episodes required before the writers dispose of him. I feel betrayed when I consider this.

3. The slayer axe was also a mistake, and clearly a writers means of getting us to the end of the show. Do writers expect me to believe that this great slayer artifact that has heretofor never been mentioned is for real? Is this a fools logic? But of course once introduced it needs to remain and we see it again in Joss's comic series "Fray" which I love. But as far as season 7 goes, it was foolish.

4. The Buffyverse holds: all magic has a price. What was the price payed for granting all the potentials with permanent slayer powers? Willow's white hair? Come on, there needs to be an explaination here. But nevermind that because you've just killed the romantic idea of "one girl in all the world" by making this a permanent thing. I know why they did it, to establish that Buffy can lay down her burden. But hey...theres Faith...oh wait they must have forgotten about her.

5. As mentioned above on this thread, season 7 sub-plots were mostly directionless. Spike's soulful character was GREAT but underused and his insanity at the seasons start had wonderful potential before they just abandoned it. The big bad failed to impress me. Everytime Kennedy opened her mouth to act all-knowing I got upset. I became ever more frustrated when the scoobies actually listened to her, this newbie, and how Willow's 7-year friendship with Buffy was so easily undermined. The writer's choice to compose Buffy's poor leadership was a mistake. I don't care that Buffy was a bad leader, I care that the writer MADE her a bad leader after 7 years of development(think about Buffy as the war leader in graduation day and then tell me if you still think she would have made the choices she made in season 7). This was a writing mistake. Then writing in the response of the scoobies to fire Buffy to follow Faith who just says "Yo" a lot was insane. Finally, I couldn't buy the logic behind why the uber-vamps were so killable by normal mortals like Xander and Anya in the finale when the 1st uber-vamp was established as a terrible, nearly unbeatable, killing machine that took two whole previous episodes for Buffy to deal with.

Redeeming Moments: Hey, it wasn't all bad!

1. Anya's death was good. By the time I got to this point I was convinced that the entire season was in the toliet but wait! Anya was killed! I have always respected authors who have the guts to attach us to characters then kill them...or subject them to a tradedy. I appluded Tara's death, not because I wanted her to die...quite the contary. I was happy because the writer made me FEEL the drama. Buffy isn't always a comedy. Drama is part of the human experience and Anya's death was a moment of truth in an otherwise illogical season.

2. I found that Andrew was used correctly. His moments added a sense of the sillyness present back at the shows roots and appealed to my geeky background. I always wondered what a Willow spin-off show could do with Andrew. I see a character who, like Wesley in Angel, is introduced as a fop but grows and evolves and learns. Andrew as dark, brooding and (most importantly) wiser possesses grand potential.

3. I liked the backstory about Slayer Nikki in 1977. I had wanted to know more about her and when Wood was revealed to be her son I was enheartened. I only wish Wood had died by being eaten, as all Sunnydale High Principals should be.

4. Adding the moment with the "core 4" talking about trite matters before the final battle was endearing, although I sensed it was coming. Circling up Buffy, Giles, Willow, & Xander then panning the camera around to rotate them in frame felt right. It made me remember where this show started and I felt compelled to re-watch the end of The Harvest, season 1 episode 2. Bravo.

5. As much as people were upset, I liked that Sunnydale was eradicated. I enjoyed the fact that Sunnydale High was blown up to end season 3. Destroying Sunnydale the City was bold.

I really hate to say it, but Buffy the Vampire Slayer Jumped the Shark the moment Kennedy kissed Willow in the episode "The Killer in Me". I suspected that it was coming and when it happened I actually cried out in anguish. It felt like I returned home to learn that a dog I had grown up with and loved dearly had just passed away. It hurt.

I love this show, I don't love the final season. Every moment just feels like people are trying to wrap things up too quickly. I remember feeling the same way about the final few episodes of star trek DS9, where a great war was going on and then in the span of 3 episodes it was all wraped up and given a happy ending. With Buffy, they just expanded that feeling into an entire season. I watched season 7 and started feeling icky about it maybe 4 shows in once I realized that Spike's insanity was being incorrectly developed. I was uplifted by a few scenes like Willow vs. The Spider Demon, and the agnst twixt Xander and Anya. But by the time Kennedy kissed Willow I was convinced that the show was no longer the show I knew. And the rest of the season was a spiral down...down...downnnn.

I have to place this season in historical context to be fair. Season 7 aired fall 02-spring 03. When it was in production Joss had Angel 4 and Firefly all occuring around the same time. This does not include any writing or comics projects going on with Dark Horse or others. Add to that SMG wanting to leave Buffy behind for ever and ever along with the stress and anguish of being forced to watch helpless as a network murders a powerful work of art it's easy to get something like season 7.

I have ranted, and now I must rest.

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Wednesday, February 9, 2005 1:41 PM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
1. Anya's death was good.

Don't you think it was a bit of a hollow gesture putting it in the finale? Buffy should have killed her in Selfless - now that would have been some good drama.

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Wednesday, February 9, 2005 4:00 PM

TMURRIE

I thought it was the best season ever,but then again it's the only season I saw from the first episode to the last episode, when all the other seasons I saw pieces of and put it together myself..hmm

/still loves season 7

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:08 AM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
a slip of a girl (16 y/o. Willow is 22ish)

Uh, no offense, but Kennedy was not 16. If anything, she was Willow's age. She was likely the oldest of the potentials. In Showtime, she even mentions that she's probably too old to be "called".

Just FYI...

Rabit

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:53 AM

THIEFJEHAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

Don't you think it was a bit of a hollow gesture putting it in the finale? Buffy should have killed her in Selfless - now that would have been some good drama.

Yes you are right, it was kinda hollow. When Buffy drives that blade through Anya's chest and pins her to the wall I remember feeling a moment of emotional pain, for Buffy for having to do it, for Xander who had to watch it but remain unable to do anything due to his "mundane mortal" status, and for Emma Caufield who rocks as an actress and could have potentially left the show right there. It only occured to me later that vengence demons can't be harmed by mundane weaponary as shown by Halfrek being impailed in season 6 in the Summers' home then getting back up.

But the sequence itself was powerful, with the flashback to the musical then the scene cut mid-verse to Anya impailed. And to wrap that up by the episode end with a happy ending(not so happy for Halfrek) was slightly hokey, although I must admit that they at least "payed a price" for the return of the lives of the frat boys by the death of a vengence demon. Bravo. However, yes I can understand the hollow feeling one would have at the seasons end. "Well we could have caused emotional drama for characters in mid-season but we didn't. Let's make up for it here at the end and give Xander 5 minutes of grief before we end this show forever." Yes it was kinda hollow. But as I can be harsh at times I will also be fair, I did like that the camera shot back across her staring face to Xander frantically searching for her and not finding her. That was a human moment.

And to the comment regarding Kennedy's age, I may have messed that one up. But since slayers are "one GIRL in all the world" they can't be all that old, otherwise at 22 you'd be one WOMAN in all the world. I have searched for info regarding the mystical age limits of slayer calling and if anybody knows info I'd be glad to read it.

But Kennedy's true age is not really a factor in changing Willow's character to such an extreme. I have since considered this more and what I believe to be the proper way to handle her would be to allow multi-seasonal healing to occur, perhaps cap it off with a mystical conversation with Tara who tells Willow to move on and live her life ALA Spike to Buffy: "Life isn't bliss, live is just this, it's living. You have to go on living" But...I guess they couldn't do that. The show was over.

I also considered that I wrote that Kennedy's attitude grated on me. I've since said "So what?" That's her character. She's abrasive. I should not be upset about the nature of a character, what I am upset about is the derailment of a story. Ultimately, I have concluded that all the issues here, the hollow gesture of Anya's condition, Willow's character violation, Caleb and a super-axe,....it all, I think, resulted from "We gotta end this show right now. Find a way to wrap it up and never mind if some watchers will think it seems forced"

And that is what happened.

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:58 AM

SASJA

Thanks, Thiefjehat, for voicing exactly my opinion! I couldn't agree more - both with your harsh but fair criticism and the few redeeming points - except on Anya's death. I agree with you on the killing characters issue - my favorite episodes mostly have the offing of someone I like in them, like Becoming or Passion - but Anya's death didn't hurt me like it should have. I like Anya, but it just left me cold - it was like they had to kill someone, and she just drew the shortest straw. It seemed unnecessary and superfluous and didn't tie properly in with the story or the character development. I liked the way she went - direct and to the point, just like she was. But there just wasn't time enough to give her the death the dramatic impact it should have had. I cried a lot more for Ms Calendar who I'd known for a season than for Anya who has been in more than three seasons. Maybe she was just the wrong person to kill - to get the big emotional impact, you have to kill someone people love (I mean people in the show). It just seemed like a pointless subplot.

I'd like to add the Anya episode to the redeeming aspects of season 7, too. I had watched the trailer, so I was spoiled that she wouldn't die (I hate that!), but it would have worked well - the song would definitely have made me think she was going. Her death would have had a much bigger impact there (quite aside from the repercussions for Buffy).

Edit: Heh, I can see we actually agree on these points too

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:31 AM

GORRAMREAVERS

Just wanted to touch on Tara's absence from this season. Joss wanted her to become evil..at least at first..when she came back. Amber didnt want that so she didnt sign on. I love Amber but I wish she had trusted Joss to make it worth-while. Oh well.

I liked season 7 but yeah...worst out of all 7 seasons.

1. S5
2. S2
3. S4
4. S3
5. S6 (first 1/2 of the season was awesome)
6. S1
7. S7

"..it is my very favorite gun."

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:09 AM

GROUNDED

I see quite a lot of people vote 5 their favourite although I can't understand why. Other than Fool For Love, The Body and, to some extent, The Gift, the rest of the season is pretty average and there are plenty of howlers too.

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:50 AM

THIEFJEHAT

I noticed season 5 popping up a lot as a favorite season too. Yes, The Body is among the 5 best episodes of Buffy IMHO. The Gift was also bold and my hat comes off. A good friend of mine defends season 5 because it was a season you could end the series on. I don't place it as high.

S2-I always come back to this one as the best. I don't think the why behind it needs to be explained.

S3-Great plot combined with the most well thought out villian I've ever seen. The show still possesses the romantic feel it started out with combined with a knowledge that things are going to change, and that we all grow up.

S6-Such a controversial season! Ppl either love or hate this one. I place it near the top. Here was a season that took us to the dark place with each and every character. I have to respect the guts of the writers to do this. Buffy had been a comedy for so long I think folks forgot about the need for drama.

S4-I have a hard time placing S4 and S5 in my mind but I rank 4 one above 5 because it possesses 3 of my 5 favorite all time episodes, Hush, Superstar, and Restless. Although the Big Bad didn't engage me so much and Riley is just a Capt. America, I still like it just a bit more than S5. And also it resonates with my 1st year of college and I see my angst of the time reflected in Buffy's wide-eyed uncertainty. Honestly, in ranking seasons 4 and 5 I mentally placed a S4 & S5 boxset in front of me and said "I'm bored. Which one should I watch?" And I see myself reaching for S4.

S5-It has a weak beginning and a great end. But as Gounded said above, it's got a lot of howlers
too. Still though, I enjoyed the details of Willow's slow exposure to dark magics and the fact it took several episodes to determine who this "Dawn" person was. I was also glad Buffy took a spiritual journey.

S1-It's endearing. It's fun. The show just hadn't found it's voice yet but even then it possesses little nuggets of joy. Plus it's the only season when Buffy is truely "One girl in all the world"

S7-I don't think I can write anymore about season 7. My mind is tired.

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 8:03 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by Gorramreavers:
Just wanted to touch on Tara's absence from this season. Joss wanted her to become evil..at least at first..when she came back. Amber didnt want that so she didnt sign on. I love Amber but I wish she had trusted Joss to make it worth-while. Oh well.

I thought contract negotiations with fox was the reason that Tara did not come back for the 7th season.

The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 9:25 AM

MIKEYMO

Quote:
1. The worst thing this season did was violate the character of Willow

Absolutely agree with this, along most other points you made about season 7. Giles totally got the shaft as well, and the whole "is he evil or no?" schtick was stupid. I think it was used just for the alone-camping-with-teenage-girls gag in a later ep.

I actually think the first few episodes were pretty strong, and things didn't go downhill until the potentials arrived. The nature of the eventually lame big bad was still nebulous and I, for one, had really high hopes. Once Buffy had her little "troops", she started in with the infamous speeches. And everyone knows the rest.

--edit

Buffy's treatment of Dawn in Season 7, treating her as though she were a child, is especially disingenuous considering her "I want to show you the world" speech at the end of Season 6.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:58 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
Giles totally got the shaft as well

Lol, that sums it up perfectly! Of course no one can beat Xander in the shaft-getting stakes - he was largely anonymous in the plot department from S4 onward, sadly.

There was some good in S7, as there is in every season of Angel/Buffy (no matter how much I loathe S6 and Angel S4, that's still true), but there were some moments so excruciatingly awful they make you want to buy the DVDs just so you can set them on fire. Case in point, while Xander is driving Dawn to safety she whips out a tazer and fries him while they're still in motion. One of the top ten worst things I've ever seen, ever. Not counting reality TV of course. Or Buffy and Spike having sex cause I think that happens more than 10 times but I'm too scared to rewatch to check...

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:54 PM

MIKEYMO

Quote:
Of course no one can beat Xander in the shaft-getting stakes - he was largely anonymous in the plot department from S4 onward, sadly.

I believe getting the shaft is Xander's main character trait. No love whatsoever, when he's saved the world alone more than most the Scoobies (or Angel).

I have a confession, here- I really do love Angel season 4. While the whole Cordy-Connor match was the worst thing EVER, the return of Angelus and episodes like 'Spin the Bottle' are incredible. And my favorite couple in the entire Whedonverse is Wesley and Lilah.

I see people have put their ranks of Buffy seasons up, so I feel compelled to follow.

S3 - Perfect! Strongest top-to-bottom of the entire run.
S2 - Here I feel the need to mention that I'm heavily biased toward season finales, especially with Buffy. There are some lame episodes sprinkled throughout, but Spike&Dru, Angelus, and then the best episode of the series to cap things off.
S5 - People are hot and cold on this, I guess. Dawn never bothered me that much... Another incredible finale, and what would have been a perfect series finale (as thousands have said before). And while Fool For Love may have been the beginning of the destruction of Spike as a character, I still love that episode. And The Body, well.. I'm speechless.
S4 - Individual strong episodes, a pretty cool idea (the Initiative), but also the season of Adam and Captain Cardboard.
S6 - Argh. This season. Sooooooooo frustrating. Some incredible episodes, obviously, with OMwF and Tabula Rosa. Still--- Willow turns into a crackwhore

But they pulled it out in the end, and Darth Rosenberg was great. And I always give props when someone gets killed.
S1 - Sets things up, not really great. Good.
S7 - Starts off strong. Really strong. Conversations with Dead People was great - I had chills. Maybe my expectations were too high, and it's not as bad as I think. But there's a full half of a season here which I can't bear to look at again. Still, there were a couple of gems. But you won't find me rooting through a mess of speeches and secondary characters searching for them.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 1:24 PM

BATMARLOWE

Well I gotta put my two cents in here for what they're worth. I'm not a big fan of Season 7 but I will say I think Conversations with Dead People is an outstanding episode. I like Storyteller and the flashback parts of Selfless. Overall, though, I think the season was poorly thought out. Not crazy about the whole potential concept, either. I think Chosen was fairly good considering where they were at that point. But overall I think it spun its wheels until the climactic episodes. At least I can get through it. Season Six (in spite of what I think its outstanding episodes are: OMWF and Tabula Rasa) is just painful to watch (IMHO). The other five seasons I think range from very good to great. And of course I think Firefly is awesome or else I wouldn't be here.
My ranking:

Season 3
Season 2
Season 5
Season 4
Season 1
Season 7
Season 6

By the way, first time posting: Hi Everybody, nice to talk to you.

batmarlowe

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:51 PM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

We've just watched all the Buffy's on DVD, ("Firefly" fan late to the Whedon party) and I have to say: Season 5 gets my vote as worst.

The whole "Key" story makes no sense.
Introduction of Dawn makes no sense.
Buffy diving into the void makes no sense.

My daughter and I watched Seasons 6,1,7,2,3,4 and finally 5 - in that order. And I was SO looking forward to understanding the whole Dawn-as-Key business. Boy, was I in for a letdown. It sure seemed to me that Season 5 writers wrote themselves into a corner - established all these rules about the Key and the use of the Key to fracture the boundaries between dimensions - then had to cheat things to make Buffy somehow a replacement for Dawn.

The dimensional rift is supposed to heal when Dawn is drained of blood? Then how come Dawn is still bleeding when Buffy does her big swan-dive, and the portal closes anyway? Buffy doesn't even bother to cut herself first - she's not drained in Dawn's place. Also, why should the ritual require blood, if the Key never needed to take the form of a human or even an animal? What if The Key were a postbox, an ashtray, or Buffy's stuffed pig, Gordo? Then there's the silliness of having one set of Godly Guys forcing Buffy to "protect" (i.e, draw attention to) the Key, while another bunch of Godly Guys in chainmail want to slaughter Buffy for accepting this "holy" commission.

Finally, the weirdest thing unresolved in Season 5: Dawn remains the Key. In Seasons 6 and 7, I had the impression that Dawn is the Girl Formerly Known As the Key, but I don't see how she ever became Not Key. So, why doesn't some other Evil God or Demon come around to claim the Key? Did I miss the explanation somewhere in Season 6?

Oh, I enjoyed individual episodes in Season 5 (love Willow in this season, loved Xander/Anya, and certainly loved Riley, Spike, Spike!). But the story arc itself? Half-baked. The whole Dawn issue now bugs the heck out of me, and I'm left feeling manipulated.

At this point (after viewing each season once) I'd rank the Buffy seasons like this:

S3,
S4,
S6,
S7,
S2,
S1,
S5

(As you probably can guess, I'm not overly fond of Angel-Buffy romance. Gag.)

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Thursday, February 10, 2005 8:23 PM

GAZERBEAM

I just have one thing to add....

Why in the name of all that is right and good in the world did they INSIST on calling the uber-slayer weapon in S7 a scythe?

A scythe is the big curved blade that the Grim Reaper has. What Buffy had was clearly an axe.

Just a pointless rant, but I had to get it off my chest

"YOu think you know... What's to come... What you are... You haven't even begun."

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Friday, February 11, 2005 12:20 AM

IDEFIX

I think this thread once more reveales the true greatness of the show. and I believe it's the reason why we (the fans) can't agree what season is good and what season is bad or for what reasons. that's what makes the show great. all the seasons have their fans and some that hate them, for all kinds of different reasons. all of it isn't good or bad, it's just in how you see it and what you like. and that's a truely great thing to accomplish.

I loved the Willow story in S6 and 7, she lost her true love, went evil, almost destroyed the world, got drawn back from the abyss by her best friend and learned to live again, including dating. she never said that Kennedy was her new true love, she wasn't. but it was a healthy thing to do: go out and date someone different, feel bad about it for a while and then learn to forgive yourself and feel good again. it was perfect.

Idefix

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Friday, February 11, 2005 3:07 AM

GROUNDED

Well I've done it many times before, but hey, let's go again ;)

S2
S1
S3
S4
S5
S7
S6

S7 only beats S6 because it only bored me as opposed to repulsed me. S1-S3 are pure TV gold and S4 has some great moments and incredible stand-outs but is a bit flimsy overall. I didn't mind S5 first time round since I had Angel S2 to watch after each ep but now I wouldn't rewatch most of it - my Jump The Shark point would be Buffy vs. Dracula, what were they thinking? I agree with all the points made above about S5's story - although it makes for a powerful image, Buffy leaping into the void is a total cop-out. Real drama would have been Glory killing Buffy and Giles, with no other option, tossing Dawn to her death.

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Friday, February 11, 2005 6:11 AM

GORRAMREAVERS

I think I rate the seasons on how much I like re-watching them. I liked the Spike/Buffy relationship before they 'did it' alot and the emotion level thru the season with Buffys mom dying hit me harder a than any other season. S5 #1 for me. To each his/her own :). I re-watch seasons 4 and 5 more than the rest.

"..it is my very favorite gun."

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