Problems with 3rd Caleb Episode by Succatash

BUFFYVERSE

Problems with 3rd Caleb Episode

POSTED BY: SUCCATASH
UPDATED: Friday, May 9, 2003 08:24
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VIEWED: 7707
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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 4:09 PM

I thought the Buffy/Spike scenes were okay, and I bought into the Faith/Principal sex thing too, but then Willow got her lovin' and even one-eyed Xander got action, and GOD DAM, the whole house! The love scenes went on and on and on, it was way too long.

I understand that it made the First jealous, and for some reason that might be important. I just wish we didn't have to watch EVERYBODY having sex for 25 minutes, I was totally yawning.

And what's with Buffy suddenly getting slow-motion Matrix powers, and Caleb becoming a bumbling idiot who trips over barrels?

Arg.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 4:59 PM

CORPRUGA

Man, I actually thought all that stuff was kind of cool. On the sex grounds, I'd much rather watch them all doin' it then watch them all fight with each other, which, to be perfectly frank, has been driving me out of my mind. And on the Buffy and Caleb grounds--Caleb may have some freaky vessel-y connection with the First, but he's still just a guy, and Buffy's a slayer, so watching him totally out-maneuver and out-power her in the first two Caleb episodes struck me as a little unrealistic. So Buffy finallygets the upper hand for once. I'm not complaining.

"It's a thingie! A fiendish thingie!" --George Harrison, Help!

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 5:02 PM

SUCCATASH

I see your excellent points. I guess she did manage to knock him down before.

I think the whole problem is that I'm not Buffy enough. I am trying to be, though.

I'm a Buffy Newbie.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 5:34 PM

HONORBOUND

I myself have watched Buffy from the start and I have to say, Spike's speech tonight was exactly what I would have said to the scoobies. What is wrong with them? They've been through big and bad with Buffy before. They should know the score and how she tends to act. They should have more faith in her ability to save the world.

As for the house of love... I didn't mind it too much except for Kennedy and Willow. I can't stand Kennedy. I keep waiting for Caleb to snap her little neck. She's only been fighting evil for what, a couple months and she's got Buffy almost topped in the 'holier than thou' category. And Willow has been doing this for so much longer and fought a number a big and bad, even without her massive witchly powers, she's a force to be reconed with, but whenever she's around Kennedy, she seems so tiny and pathetic. Uhggg!!! Caleb, please... snap away..

I am looking forward to Angel coming to town to help out. It should be interesting to see how the interaction between him and Spike goes... hee hee

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 6:00 PM

KOBAYASHI

Wow, I'm glad I read all the bashing reviews of this episode this morning on AICN... it made it so much better.

This was a really good episode. I dont get why everybody has a problem with it. It was great to see the mayor again, Andrew was funny, Spike gave a well-deserved speach and the ending completely shocked me. Only two more to go, though...

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 6:06 PM

SUCCATASH

Yeah, I forgot to mention that Spike's reprimand was cool. It would also appear that Spike and Faith are a pretty even match.

As for Buffy vs. Caleb, hmmm. There's no need to repeat myself. What's your take on their fight?

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 6:09 PM

SUCCATASH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kobayashi:
...Andrew was funny, Spike gave a well-deserved speach and the ending completely shocked me.

I totally agree with you. I liked the ending. By the way, I also liked the intro. Much better intro than last week's with the Demon driving the car.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 6:44 PM

KOBAYASHI

Quote:
Much better intro than last week's with the Demon driving the car.

Nah, You gotta love Clem! Clem was great... I'm glad he got out of town...

Tonight was better than last week though, I'll give you that.

Overall, I've got a major citicism of this entire year... but I think I'll start a new thread about that...

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 6:52 PM

SUCCATASH

I've never seen Clem before, that's my problem.

I started watching Buffy this season because of Firefly. I wasn't expecting much, but I found myself really enjoying the show.

With Nathan on board, I guess I have expected too much. I was better off before, when I had no expectations.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 7:52 PM

TERAPH

Regarding the fight, isn't this the first time Buffy has actively tried to avoid Caleb? It seems to me the other times she has tried to fight him (regardless of whether she was the aggressor). This time she seemed to just be dodging, as opposed to fighting back.

Caleb seems to have good reflexes and brute strength, but not much talent in the ways of grace or agility.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 7:56 PM

SUCCATASH

Is it like Dungeons and Dragons?

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 8:11 PM

TERAPH

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Is it like Dungeons and Dragons?

:) I'd say Vampire: The Masquerade or Buffy, the Roleplaying game ( http://www.btvsrpg.com), but D&D is also good.

Actually, I could also say it's kinda like my friend Steve. He's a very big, strong guy, and he has incredibly fast reflexes, but if I stayed out of reach I would have a pretty good chance of dodging or out-running him. But, if I got within reach, he could wipe the floor with me (well, okay, most people could :).

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 8:19 PM

TERAPH

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
I thought the Buffy/Spike scenes were okay, and I bought into the Faith/Principal sex thing too, but then Willow got her lovin' and even one-eyed Xander got action, and GOD DAM, the whole house! The love scenes went on and on and on, it was way too long.

Kennedy & Willow: Great scene; made the Faith and Wood scene seem tame. It felt like Kennedy was getting more than a little pushy, and the desire didn't seem to be there at first, but it obviously was once they got into it...

Wood & Faith: Saw it coming, but the timing seemed off. Of all the scenes between our couples, this felt the most forced to me, even though I knew at some point they would hook up. It didn't seem like the characters were quite there yet.

Anya & Xander: Made perfect sense to me. Their sense of only having each other and their chemistry was great. Of the three love-fests, this one seemed the most natural.

I would have rather had just Willow and Kennedy or Faith and Wood and had it feel more natural, than trying to fit three sex scenes together.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 8:20 PM

SUCCATASH

Teraph wrote:
Regarding the fight, isn't this the first time Buffy has actively tried to avoid Caleb? It seems to me the other times she has tried to fight him (regardless of whether she was the aggressor). This time she seemed to just be dodging, as opposed to fighting back.

Caleb seems to have good reflexes and brute strength, but not much talent in the ways of grace or agility.

It's awkward from the beginning because Caleb is like GOD compared to Buffy. She can get a punch in, but he is GOD compared to them all, nonetheless.

Then, she goes slow motion Matrix and runs away. We see Caleb running like a girl and he trips over a barrell.

This is not D&D, where you have Agility and Stamina vs Strength and Cunning. Blah blah blah

Cut me a plate of cookies, somebody.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2003 8:24 PM

SUCCATASH

There's a Buffy RPG? Don't play them much.

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 3:42 AM

ETERNALS

Having watched Buffy from the beginning I liken her to a sort of comic book heroine. Most of them have to get beaten down so that their victory seems so much sweeter. Admit it, if she had walked in and whooped his but in ten seconds, well how disappointed would you have been. She finally figured out that she couldn't go toe to toe with him, and as such, she could run away. I found it to be so, well, fulfilling to have her discover that she was right all along. And then, i also thought it was poetic justice what happened to Faith and the others. Not that I'm not a big Faith Fan, but Die Kennedy Die.

"I'm not going to love anyone I'm not legally obligated to." Red Foreman.

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 6:57 AM

NOVAGRASS

I have one thing to say about this epidode...

Wretched crap of epic proportions.

A.) Characters not in character
B.) Dialogue, awful
C.) The episode turned my hard earned tolerance for Andrew upsidedown, and I just didn't think he was a bit funny... just annoying beyond belief.
D.) A bomb? Are you kidding me? Can we say cliche no. 3 in the book of bad movie cliches?
E.) Kill Spike. Kill him now. Dead, dust, gone. He was written worse than I've ever seen him written.

The good? The sex scenes (Willow/Kennedy, Wood/Faith, and Xander/Anya) with the Sarah McLaughlin music, the Scythe... and... that's all. Everything else, wretched crap.

Perhaps one of the worst Buffy episodes of all time, up there with Wrecked or As You Were.

All respect to Rebecca Rand Kirshner, she is a funny lady, but she had NO place writing such a pivital dramatic episode. Bad bad decision, ME, especially for such an important character progressing episode.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 8:02 AM

MERLINDREA

Arrrgh - I had to work yesterday and thought I taped it but I had setup the wrong channel! (in fact, it was WB2 instead of UPN). Is anybody out there who has taped it and could share it with me? I have never used Kazaa so far, so if its there, I would be superhappy about some help how to get it...

I want to see the love scenes!

Please please please help me...

Merl

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 9:32 AM

HOTFORKAYLEE

I would have to say this was an all around bad episode. I did like Spike and Faith fighting though. Can't stand Andrew he should be written off. The love scenes were allright. Xander's made sense and even though Kennedy is a bitch her and Willow made sense too. Faith is just horny, no real setup for that one in my eyes.

You knew the whole armory scene was a setup, but a bomb? Come on, give us a break. Buffy laying in bed crying then goes matrix on Caleb needed work too. As much as I like Spike I agree with Novagrass, his whole speech to Buffy was just to cheesy.

Let's hope it gets better but right now I could pretty much care less if they all die.

Quote:
"Don't send the ships. Let it burn, Mollari. Let it all end in fire."

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 10:27 AM

LUPA

Quote:
Originally posted by HotForKaylee:
You knew the whole armory scene was a setup, but a bomb? Come on, give us a break.

That was pretty much my sentiment. It was weird, 'cause I was watching w/ a friend and right before that scene she says, "C'mon, Pandora, open the box." And I was all, "It's not a bomb. This is Buffy. They wouldn't be so hopelessly predi - oh."

Anyway, word on the coolness Spike/Faith fight scene and the suckiness rest of the ep. Don't you just hate it when the first 3/4 is plodding and pointless and the ending is forced and rushed.

I couldn't buy that Faith would walk the girls into a trap so easily after Buffy Just Did That!

I'm glad B went after Caleb though, it was about time she quit whining and did something! I also liked seeing the mayor again, he was always one of my favorite baddies!

"I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is just so bad. It's depressing." Tara, BTVS

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 10:32 AM

SCIFISIREN

Quote:
Originally posted by Eternals:
Having watched Buffy from the beginning I liken her to a sort of comic book heroine. Most of them have to get beaten down so that their victory seems so much sweeter. Admit it, if she had walked in and whooped his but in ten seconds, well how disappointed would you have been. She finally figured out that she couldn't go toe to toe with him, and as such, she could run away. I found it to be so, well, fulfilling to have her discover that she was right all along. And then, i also thought it was poetic justice what happened to Faith and the others.

I so agree. Unforunately I also agree that the last few shows haven't been a Buffy best, but I just think they are killing time so they can hit us all at once with a kick ass series finale. All of Joss's finales rock and I just can't see him disapointing us at the very end. He cares too much, unlike some other creaters that don't fight to hard for a decent closing. I have faith that in the end... all the pain in the butt lines and out of character behavior will come to a perfect head.

I also think the unfunny Andrew is going to end up being an unexpected hero and some how save the day. Otherwise he is just a waste of space and what would be the point of that?

SciFi Siren

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 1:02 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I thought that the bomb thing wasn't really out there, but the fact that Faith would fall for it was. Faith was brought in for a reason (talking of the power that be, good and bad coverge... stuff that happens) and it was a calling from the good side of things. So to go from you're needed in the world and right now you need to go and help Buffy save the world to you make a mistake that's completely out of charicter and lead everyone into a trap just seems really really bad coherance.

I also think that the matrix moves are just cheep. I would belive Buffy somehow becomes more agile becuase something about being at peace (while in spikes arms that night) let her powers come out, but to have that happen at the exact same time that Caleb suddenly loses all of the power that he has been shown to have cuaseing him to be bumbleing in a way that we know he's not; it's just too much.

It's contrived, and I really expected more.

They didn't need to make it a confrontation with the first which they would only be able to have her win by breaking all of the rules they set up over the course of the show. The Nephilum would be just as bad.

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 4:15 PM

SPIKEEQUALSYUM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
I also think that the matrix moves are just cheep. I would belive Buffy somehow becomes more agile becuase something about being at peace (while in spikes arms that night) let her powers come out, but to have that happen at the exact same time that Caleb suddenly loses all of the power that he has been shown to have cuaseing him to be bumbleing in a way that we know he's not; it's just too much.

It's contrived, and I really expected more.

I agree with the whole matrix deal, but i still loved the episode. Watching buffy makes me so creepily happy that i tend to miss weird mistakes. lol. ::is buffy mistake-blind::

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 4:29 PM

ETERNALS

C'mon, Faith herself as much as admits that she isn't all that bright. She didn't even understand Wood's reference.

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Wednesday, May 7, 2003 5:20 PM

LUPA

Quote:
Originally posted by Eternals:
C'mon, Faith herself as much as admits that she isn't all that bright. She didn't even understand Wood's reference.

Faith's always been a fighter, not a scholar. I think there's a big difference between walking blindly into an obvious trap and missing a reference to the Illiad.

"I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is just so bad. It's depressing." Tara, BTVS

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Thursday, May 8, 2003 9:15 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Exactly, there are many people who would walk into a trap that know all about the Trojan War. Faith is intelligent, not so knowledgeable, but still too intelligent to fall for that.

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Friday, May 9, 2003 5:09 AM

MERLINDREA

Okay, finally I managed to download the episode and watch it. I have to say, the biggest problem I had with this episode was Giles! He acts weird the whole season, but now to kill a captive? Not in battle, but a helpless prisoner? And have you noticed, he killed him in the middle of a sentence? Maybe just before the prisoner could say something about a bomb?

I know that people have stepped away from the Giles-is-evil theory, but I am not convinced. I can't remember, but have we actually seen how he escaped the axe, when he found his fellow watcher??? What happened there? What happened to our nice, mild-mannered, polite Giles?

Merl

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Friday, May 9, 2003 8:24 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Good question. Maybe there is a stupid curse over the gang, faith falls for an obvious trap, Giles kills a prisoner before he can get (potentaily) vital information.

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