BUFFYVERSE

Okay, it was a mistake to let go of Season 4, but now on to 5!

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Sunday, September 18, 2005 18:42
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 11494
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Saturday, September 10, 2005 12:11 PM

CHRISISALL


Selling season 4 to get Battlestar Galactica S1 was a mistake, 'cause after all's said and done, er...well, I liked BTVS S4 better.
(no hisses and boos please)

But that's the past, I have season 5 now!!
Even before I start it, I'll ask...Adding a bratty teen to the show???WTH


As always, jumpin' the gun Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 10, 2005 5:20 PM

PERIDIDDLE


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Even before I start it, I'll ask...Adding a bratty teen to the show???WTH


With ya right there buddy. And I was twelve when I watched season five for the first time. 14 now, and still can't stand her much.

On the upside - Dawn finds her place in season 7. She's very easy to get along with once she grows up. Till then...well. Yeah. I wish you luck, and welcome to season five nonetheless! One of my personal least favorite seasons, for some reason, but still some pretty lovely TV. Gorgeously shot, too. Joss & co. flaunt their directorial skills so much in that season. ^_^

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

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Saturday, September 10, 2005 7:07 PM

BELASERA


Simple Answer to the painful dilemma of picking one show over another-
Netflix.
The Geek's Best Freind

And hey, when'm MY random mystically inserted little sister gonna show up?

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, September 10, 2005 7:48 PM

JACQUI


I was one of the very few people who didn't find Dawn that annoying.

Okay, yes, if I heard her scream "Get out get out get out!" ONE MORE FREAKIN' time, I was going to kill something small and furry, but that's beside the point.

She's not that bad. Michelle T does the best she can with a teenager written as though she was 6 years old. The character gets a lot better as she's allowed to grow into a teenager.

And, really, season five has some great moments. You won't regret it.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Saturday, September 10, 2005 8:07 PM

BATMARLOWE


Not a Dawn-hater myself. As far as why she's there--Joss had his reasons. Meet him halfway. Accept Dawn for now and then decide if he made it work after you've seen the season.

Can you sell your BG S1 to get BUFFY S4 back?

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Saturday, September 10, 2005 8:16 PM

BATMARLOWE


Gotta agree with you about Dawn screaming "get out". I know there's a big one in S6 is there one in S5 too?

I can take the first three, but man, that fourth one! Dogs bark, glass shatters, and my ears bleed.

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Saturday, September 10, 2005 8:50 PM

JACQUI


Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Gotta agree with you about Dawn screaming "get out". I know there's a big one in S6 is there one in S5 too?

I can take the first three, but man, that fourth one! Dogs bark, glass shatters, and my ears bleed.


Yup. Blood Ties. The first go round.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 1:44 AM

CALLYGAL


Okay, as a character Dawn in S5 bugs me no end. (Also in S6, luckily less so in S7). But as a plot device I like her. By the end of the season everything is mighty twisted up and angsty, and Dawn's a big part of that.

However, S5's my favourite season, so that may be a factor in my non-hate of her. Plus Spike's got some great stuff in S5, but I'm a big Spike-fan, and I think you're not, so yeah...

You'll love it anyway. It's Joss!

I'm not nice. I'm just highly susceptible to guilt

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 2:50 AM

FLYINGTAMS


Hm.. I wonder if its an age thing, I never disliked Dawn. It always seemed to me people hysterically over react. But perhaps thats because they are young enough to see parts of themselves in her? ;)

Psychologically they tell us that what we don't like in others is what we don't like in our selves.


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Sunday, September 11, 2005 3:32 AM

GROUNDED


S5 - prepare yourself for some of the series' worst special effects ;) Add on the fact that there are only a smattering of classic eps and you get a solid if uninspiring season. Worth watching for sure though.

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 4:06 AM

JACQUI


Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
S5 - prepare yourself for some of the series' worst special effects ;)


Okay, so you're including in this the big snake puppet from S2's "Reptile Boy" and the 'oh look at the barbie falling down the shute' effect from S4's "Doomed"? Aren't you?

'Cause, man, they blew. And I can't remember really bad ones in S5, none that would top those, anyway.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:48 AM

GROUNDED


You'll notice I wrote 'some of'...

Now go rewatch the double whammy of badness that is Shadow and Listening to Fear.

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 6:12 AM

CHRISISALL


Well, I started a season 5 thread like you said I should, and wow, the response is deafening!
Buffy vs. Dracula was nowhere near as bad as I heard.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 6:42 AM

JACQUI


I *liked* Buffy Vs Dracula.

Seriously, what's not to like?

"I think we've put our finger on why we're the sidekicks."

"No, no Sir, no more chick pit for you!"

"Check, no more Butt Monkey."

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 8:21 AM

CHRISISALL


Xander was hi-larious, and the final fight was great!

I'm standing RIGHT here Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 8:34 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:
Originally posted by Jacqui:
I *liked* Buffy Vs Dracula.

Seriously, what's not to like?


How about the fact that it tramples all over the mythology of the show? And for what, the thrill of seeing Buffy vs. Dracula? I'll pass thanks...

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 9:24 AM

CHRISISALL


Okay, there was that....

I just expected it to suck (excuse, please) on all levels, and I found it entertaining. Certainly not great, but...

Vapor like Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 11:40 AM

BATMARLOWE


Grounded, I'd like to know why you feel that way about B vs. D trampling the show's mythology. Not trying to start anything, just want to hear your P.O.V. But I do have to agree with you about one special effect. When you-know-who creates a you-know-what to seek out you-know what. That one is about the worst in the show's history.

Okay...finally, I get to say this. Here's what I'd like you to do Chris:

Go back to the teaser of "Buffy vs. Dracula". When Dracula says who he is, then we cut to a close-up of Buffy.

And SMG gives one of my all-time favorite single line deliveries when she says "Get out".

But that's not what I'm talking about. After she says "Get out", she starts to smile...

At some point during that smile, freeze-frame the picture.

And just gaze at SMG for several seconds. It's just one guy's opinion, but to me she has never looked more beautiful than in that shot.

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 2:32 PM

CHRISISALL


Okay, I'll do it. I did notice last night when I saw it, a little Faith rub off on her?
Re: trampling on the mythology...
The Drac turning into bats, wolves, vapor, stuff vamps on the series never could do. I think they tried to explain it as Gypsy tricks or something. It didn't bother me too much, though.

Dracula sucks Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 2:54 PM

BATMARLOWE


I was cool with that. They made it clear that he was the only vamp who could do that stuff 'cause he's special. Easy for me to buy--we are talking Dracula here.

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 3:08 PM

CHRISISALL


The guy that played him was good, also. No jokes, except for that hysterical observation of Xander!

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 11, 2005 11:14 PM

GROUNDED


Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
I was cool with that. They made it clear that he was the only vamp who could do that stuff 'cause he's special. Easy for me to buy--we are talking Dracula here.


Yes, but why is Dracula special? I haven't seen the episode in ages (only have S5 part 2 on vid) but I don't recall any explanation of it. Isn't he also supposed to be ancient, yet he doesn't conform to the semi-animalistic forms the Master and Kakistos started to take. I just didn't think it was worth including him, purely for the sake of including him! There's no need to borrow characters when you're so good at creating them yourself...

Still, the episode did serve up one good, if utterly ridiculous Dracula related line - Spike claiming the dark lord owes him money ;)

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Monday, September 12, 2005 8:05 AM

BATMARLOWE


Geez, Grounded, I typed out a long and thoughtful response and my internet service lost it for me. Then I typed it out again, and it lost it for me again. I don't feel like typin' no mo'.

I'll try to make this quick. Why is Dracula special? There is a glibly delivered line that Drac's abilities are "gypsy parlor tricks" or words to that affect. Also, Dru can mesmerize and hypnotize people in a way other vamps can't (like she did to Kendra and Giles). Why is she different? So there's kind of a precedent established for some vamps having abilities that others don't.

Dracula's age: I've never read Stoker's novel, so I don't know what he has to say about it. But, if we assume Dracula is a turned Vlad Dracul, then that makes him about 600 years old. Only 200 years older than Darla. Darla was a vamp (her first time around) for close to 400 years. And she looked damn good for 400. So I think The Master, Tacitos, and the guy from ANGEL S5 are perhaps millenia older than Dracula.

I think Joss used Dracula for symbolic reasons that related to Buffy's personal quest concerning he role as The Slayer, and not just "wouldn't it be cool if Buffy fought Dracula". I think Joss thought that symbolically Dracula was useful because of his "vamp cred" with his audience (even though the character came from outside BUFFY). And I think he thought we would accept him for the same reason.

But that's just my opinion.

And there were some great lines. And SMG never looked better.

But I did have a problem with the vapor thing.

And I didn't get what you meant when you said "S5 part 2". Does that mean you only have the second half of season 5?

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Monday, September 12, 2005 10:48 PM

GROUNDED


The series intimates a few times that Dru had 'abilities' before she was a vampire, which is why they turned her in the first place.

As for the 'personal quest' thing, what did the episode really accomplish? The awful ending left everything up in the air.

'S5 part 2' does mean I only have the second half. In the UK the VHS sets were split into two boxes of 3 tapes each. Before Buffy S6 was due to air on Sky, BBC2 was only midway through S5, so my brother and I bought the necessary Buffy and Angel tapes to speed things up :) Fool for Love is good, but it's not worth buying the other box for, especially now you can get it on that Spike DVD thingy ;)

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:43 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
The awful ending left everything up in the air.

You mean Drac being vapor? Does this constitute a joke?

Maybe Buffy had Willow throw a wind spell on him so the vapor could never come together again to form him, and we just didn't see it?

Yeah, I'm reachin' Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:47 AM

GROUNDED


That punning was inadvertent. My sincere apologies ;)

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:55 AM

CHRISISALL


No Place Like Home, and Family were AWSOME!!

Select to view spoiler:

The way Dawn appeared on the show was puzzling to me, but I had faith that the'd pull a good explanation out of the bag, and boy, did they!
Joyce asking "who are you?" as she passed out was great, and Buffy seeing reality both ways with and without Dawn's existence was truly goose-bump worthy.

I'll tell ya, this season has me goin'- at least as much as 4 did.

It's gonna make me sell a lot of comics to buy 6 isn't it...?


Tell me it won't Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:11 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by callygal:

However, S5's my favourite season
So far, I'm lovin' it. Care to pitch me a quick countdown of seasons, in order of how much you like them? I've heard very few point to 5 as their favourite ( although I've heard many a fan here claim that it should've ended at 5, and that 6 & 7 are a letdown, and make the pathos of season 5's ending seem sorta hollow and anti-climactic ).

Mr. Pointy's pal Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:18 PM

BATMARLOWE


Let's cross the 6 bridge when we get there.

I'm assuming you listened to the commentary on "Restless" (last ep of S4) so you know about those hints Joss dropped in the dream sequence. Sneaky, clever Joss.

Well, if you like S5 this much this early into it then I would think you will really get into the rest of the season.

And you're coming up on "Fool for Love" which is certainly in my top three and may be my single favorite episode of the series, for what that's worth.

Didja do the freeze-frame on Sarah, huh? Didja, didja?

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:55 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:


Didja do the freeze-frame on Sarah, huh? Didja, didja?
Yeah.
Twice.

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:58 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:

I'm assuming you listened to the commentary on "Restless" (last ep of S4) so you know about those hints Joss dropped in the dream sequence. Sneaky, clever Joss.
No, I almost never listen to commentaries (unless it's Kurt Russell and John Carpenter, he he he), what did they say?

Non-owner of S4 (at the moment) Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 1:04 PM

CALLYGAL


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Care to pitch me a quick countdown of seasons, in order of how much you like them? I've heard very few point to 5 as their favourite ( although I've heard many a fan here claim that it should've ended at 5, and that 6 & 7 are a letdown, and make the pathos of season 5's ending seem sorta hollow and anti-climactic ).


Okay, in order: 5, 2, 6, 3, 1, 7, 4

Yes, the series could have ended well at the end of S5, probably better than it ended in 7. But I, few among many, like S6. Now granted I spent that period as a pretty depressed teenager, so I didn't think Buffy was just being whiny. And I love any Buffy/Spike, so I'm kinda biased.

On the other hand I think the continuing after S6 is a grown-up message. Yes, it was a grand gesture at the end of S5, and it was tragic and awful, and a great episode. But I don't think it undercut that to continue afterwards. The message, I guess, is that life goes on. Even when we make the big gestures, eventually we have to get back to the nitty-gritty of just living. So I love Season 5 because its about love, in lots of forms. And I love S6 because its about how being grown up doesn't mean giving your life for someone, but about living for them. I don't think that's contradictory, or stops either season being heartbreaking, no matter whether you know what happens next or not.

...I got a bit ranty there, didn't I? Hmm...Season 5 has shirtless Spike and Season 6 has that PLUS singing...?



I'm not nice. I'm just highly susceptible to guilt

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 1:46 PM

CHRISISALL


At this point I would say 3, 2, 4, 1.
But 5 looks like it'll take the third spot after 2, maybe even the second after 3....

We'll see Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:04 PM

BATMARLOWE


Wow! I'm surprised you don't listen to the commentaries. They're full of interesting inside info. And Joss in particular is very good at it.

During Buffy's dream sequence in "Restless", she and Faith are making a bed. And Faith says something like "you need to make it ready for her" or something like that. There's also a reference to Little Miss Muffet. When Faith and Buffy leave, they pass by Tara who says something like "hurry back, you don't want to miss dawn"

Early in S5 they go to the Magic Shop and Buffy makes Dawn wait outside. And that "crazy" guy walks up to Dawn and tells her she doesn't belong and stuff like that. He also makes some Little Miss Muffet reference. Never would have realized that was a reference back to "Restless" if I hadn't listened to David Fury's commentary.

So does Sarah look gorgeous in that shot or what?

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:


So does Sarah look gorgeous in that shot or what?
Almost as good as Faith does dancing in that club in Angel S1, as she's takin' the place apart!!!

You are obsessed, my friend, and I understand it Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 3:24 PM

CHRISISALL


P.S. just watching Fool For Love; James Marsters is an actor's actor. He's brilliant!

Spike still bugs me, but only 'cause he's so good at being bad Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 3:49 PM

RETRO


I freely admit I haven't seen all of what there is to see. But here is my listing.

1,3,2,6,4,7,5

The first three seasons are why I fell in love with Buffy. I don't know why, but I feel like (with some very notable exceptions,) the show lost some of it's magic when the crew left High School. I rank 1, 3, 2. I loved, loved, loved season one as an introduction on our Scoobies. I loved season three as it gave us the Mayor, and Faith. The power and the dark Slayer. I also loved the combination of Angelus, Spike, and Dru for season 2, but the agnsty teen drama drops it below season three.
I freely admit that after that my knowledge becomes a bit more fuzzy. 6 has "Once More With Feeling," and also what my roomate calls "The Dark Phoenix Saga," which I think is my all-time favorite ending to a season. 4, to me, is a weak season. I'm not a fan of the Initiative, Adam, and especially not of Reilly. But this season gives us 'Something Blue,' as well as 'Hush' and I believe 'The Replacement.' 7 has Nathan in it, and I rank it there not just as a love of the actor, but for a love of the character of Caleb. I originally had 7 above 4, but I switched them.
Season 5, I just don't really get. And perhaps I have not given it an honest enough chance, but in my current list, it ranks bottom.

"Just because I choose to wander, it doesn't mean that I am lost..."

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:09 PM

BATMARLOWE


It's two different types of feminine pulchritude, that shot of Buffy is beautiful, that scene with Faith is sexy. Isn't diversity nice?

Anyway, James really shows his stuff in FfL and there's so much going on in this one you almost feel like you've watched a two hour episode (in a good way). I just love it. I don't think there's a second of it doesn't work.

Btw, it has a counterpart in ANGEL S2, so you'll have that to look forward to. They aired back-to-back when they were originally broadcast.

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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 10:20 PM

GROUNDED


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
No Place Like Home, and Family were AWSOME!!


I can barely remember what No Place Like Home was about, but Family was awful. Possibly my least favourite Joss-written ep pre seasons 6 and 7.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:27 AM

CHRISISALL


No Place Like Home told where Dawn came from, and was great. Family was a nice embrace for Willow's girlfriend, and sorta touching, if a little bit flat. But again, Spike was great in that too, even IF he bugs me.
Fool for Love was an all-time high in the series for me, not a bad or wasted moment!
Riley was pretty stupid in Shadow, the first time his character let me down. I can see that they're writing him out. Too bad, I liked him.

Five words Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:37 AM

BATMARLOWE


Yeah, I liked Reilly too. But I thought they had mishandled his character so much in S5 that I was glad he was written out. As a character he was just getting in the way. But that's the only thing I don't like about S5.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:41 AM

GROUNDED


Hmm. There's plenty more to dislike about S5 but I don't want to spoil Chrisisall ;)

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:42 AM

MIKEYMO


Fool For Love may be my all-time favorite Buffy episode. "Here endeth the lesson."

I never cared for Captain Cardboard, myself. But Tara is great.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:43 AM

MIKEYMO


Oops. Double post.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:52 AM

TERAPH


Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
During Buffy's dream sequence in "Restless", she and Faith are making a bed. And Faith says something like "you need to make it ready for her" or something like that. There's also a reference to Little Miss Muffet. When Faith and Buffy leave, they pass by Tara who says something like "hurry back, you don't want to miss dawn"


Close.

In the dream in "Graduation Day, Part 2" (Ep. 3.22), Faith says "Miles to go, Little Miss Muffet counting down from 7-3-0"*. [1]

In "This Year's Girl" (Ep. 4.15) Buffy and Faith make the bed in Faith's nightmare. [2]

Then, in "Restless" (Ep. 4.22), Buffy wakes on the bed in her dream, she says to Tara that "Faith and I just made that". Then she sees the clock, which says 7:30, and notes that it's late, but Tara says the clock is wrong. When Buffy leaves the room, Tara says "be back before dawn". [2][3]


(*I've seen many theories regarding the 730 reference. The one I've seen most often is that 730 is 365 times 2, meaning it is two years until the end of season 5 and "The Gift" - which is also the 100th episode of the series.)

1. http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes/gd2.shtml#references
2. http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes/restless.shtml#continuity
3. http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=12&story=264&page=
9&sort=&limit=all

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:16 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Hmm. There's plenty more to dislike about S5 but I don't want to spoil Chrisisall ;)
At this point there's a lot I don't know, aside from the REAL biggies (J and B exit, stage left), so thanks.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by teraph:




(*I've seen many theories regarding the 730 reference. The one I've seen most often is that 730 is 365 times 2, meaning it is two years until the end of season 5 and "The Gift" - which is also the 100th episode of the series.)
Does all this mean S5 was supposed to be the end?

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:34 PM

TERAPH


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by teraph:

(*I've seen many theories regarding the 730 reference. The one I've seen most often is that 730 is 365 times 2, meaning it is two years until the end of season 5 and "The Gift" - which is also the 100th episode of the series.)
Does all this mean S5 was supposed to be the end?

Chrisisall


The end? Maybe not back when the hints were dropped in third season, but I bet Joss was planning something big for the episode that was both the end of a season and the show's 100th episode -- which is a major milestone but almost never coincides with the last episode of the season.

By the time they got to writing and filming "The Gift" they had been cancelled, so it *was* the end for the show (until it was picked up by UPN). I don't know if the same thing would have happened if the show had been renewed prior to "The Gift".

I haven't heard the commentary tracks on seasons 5-7 yet, so I don't know if anyone on those reveals alternate plans that got changed, but I suspect Joss had something in mind...

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:01 PM

CHRISISALL


You see, I'm from the future, where impending cancellation is never looming over an artists work. We've evolved beyond that.

Oops! My time machine's leaving, gotta blaze Chrisisall

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:15 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
But I thought they had mishandled his character so much in S5 that I was glad he was written out.
He was sabotaged!

Lettin' a vamp bite him, Hmmph! Bite me! Chrisisall

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