About Spike's Soul by Haken

Quote:
Originally posted by Blaise:
what doesn't seem right about it?

Select to view spoiler:
that spike is going to be a vamp with a soul? i don't like it either, it seems too Angelish, it's been done.

Good point. In the past I would have said, "Yeah, it looks dumb, but I'm sure they'll find an original way to spin it." But after some of the hackneyed stories in Season 6...

Still, I have some hope for this story line. It's the main reason I'll be tuning in come fall.

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Monday, June 24, 2002 7:58 AM

I am sure that Spikes vampy soul will be a far cry from Angel. Spike has had so much character development this past season and a half (since his chipping). I don't think he's going to be the brooding, lurking type that angel was.

I think the biggest obsticle to overcome will be the attempted rape issue. I had heard a rumor that one of the main cast would die at the end of last season, but I didn't know who it was. I have loved Spike since the beginning. But when he tried to rape Buffy, I was hoping that he would be the one they killed off. I couldn't believe they had his character do that. At the time, I thought it was unredeemable. I thought I'd never be able to like him again. (Don't ask why, but murdering vampire was more forgivable, rapist, not so much.) But then when I saw that he went so far to get his soul back, he redeemed himself somewhat in my mind, and I do see a road back for him.

I just have to say that In Joss I Trust.

Joan the Vampire Slayer: A vampire with a soul? Oh my god, how lame is that?

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Monday, June 24, 2002 9:16 AM

It's funny how people sympathize with Spike. I think it start even before he got chipped. Maybe it's because he's just so cool. Sure he's a mass murderer. But what's that compared to always knowing just the right thing to say?

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Monday, June 24, 2002 12:06 PM

I guess Spike is kinda cool... but I always think of him as the lovable loser. Aside from a few short months at the beginning of season 2, he's always been at least second fiddle. He's always trying to make things better, it's just that he usually chooses the worst possible plan to do it. Example: in As you Were, he's got all those stupid demon eggs he was going to sell to get money so Buffy wouldn't have to work at the Doublemeat Palace. His heart was in the right place... (who DIDN'T want to save buffy from the fate worse then death?)

No, I'm a rebel. You're an idiot. Give the lot of us a bad name.

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Monday, June 24, 2002 1:15 PM

Heart in the right place? He risks getting thousands of people killed so his girlfriend won't have to work in a drive-in!

Speaking of which, I'm sure everybody knows by now that Doublemeat Palace is gone, the victim of thin-skinned sponsors. Wonder how they get written out. Hopefully B has found something more dignified! Didn't her career placement test say, "cop"? Of course, the recruiting officer was a homicidal demon, but there are good cops too!

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Monday, June 24, 2002 4:26 PM

BLAISE

I've been a fan of Spike since the days of Spike and Dru, he always seemed to have the potential to be more human, and then they chipped him, I was like, YAY!, now everyone can see that he's an ok guy when he's not trying to rip people apart.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Speaking of which, I'm sure everybody knows by now that Doublemeat Palace is gone, the victim of thin-skinned sponsors. Wonder how they get written out. Hopefully B has found something more dignified! Didn't her career placement test say, "cop"? Of course, the recruiting officer was a homicidal demon, but there are good cops too!

Well, one of the spoilers I got was that Buffy's new job would be in some way associated with the High school. How? I'm not sure, since she didn't finish college. Janitor? Lunch lady maybe?

Blaise

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Monday, June 24, 2002 5:25 PM

JOCE

Quote:

Originally posted by Blaise:
Well, one of the spoilers I got was that Buffy's new job would be in some way associated with the High school. How? I'm not sure, since she didn't finish college. Janitor? Lunch lady maybe?

Hey, maybe she could be the new librarian! LOL, okay, I guess not. But Giles would be so proud. I wonder if the new Sunnydale High needs an enforcement officer? Some schools have 'em.

I could see Willow going to work there, you know, after getting over the whole trying-to-destroy-the-world thing. I mean, she was the computer teacher for a while in season two.

-- Joce :)

PS: Think Xander's construction crew will be the ones to rebuild the place?

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Monday, June 24, 2002 5:48 PM

Spoiler text, people!

but anyway...about Buffy and the job sitch:

Select to view spoiler:

the idea that Buffy would work at the school stems from an article in this week's EW. But the wording is vague. It says something like "Dawn enrolls at the newly reopened high school and Buffy gets a new job." Herc at AICN took this to suggest that Buffy's job is at the high school. But, it goes on to say that Joss wouldn't divulge *where* she works next season, so... OTOH, working at the Sunnydale high is logical (in an administrative/secretarial position) -- she would want to keep an eye on the hellmouth.

--- Joe

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Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:05 AM

Let's distinguish between speculation and spoilers. Speculation doesn't require spoiler tags. And everything that's been said here that isn't speculation is just basic background stuff. You have to get into the actual story before it becomes a spoiler.

Anway, if we're gonna worry about spoilers, we should be more courteous to fans in the UK, who haven't seen Season 6 yet. Thus the title of this thread is uncool, spoilerwise!

As for Sunnydale High staffing issues: Obviously Buffy is the new lunch lady. I mean, she's got prior experience! Think of the humorous situations when Dawn comes into the cafeteria with her friends.

And I don't think it takes a genius to figure out who the new librarian is. Wonder if it's still right over the Hellmouth. Would make sense to move it.

If Spike isn't fully human, than I guess he doesn't turn back into William the Bloody Awful. Kind of a relief...

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Tuesday, June 25, 2002 8:31 AM

Quote:
Speculation doesn't require spoiler tags. And everything that's been said here that isn't speculation is just basic background stuff

Spoiler-free speculation is all good, but the previous posts are not spoiler-free. "Basic background stuff" (read: Buffy's career plans as told by Joss) are spoilers.

Quote:
You have to get into the actual story before it becomes a spoiler.

Though I would agree that next season's tone is background and doesn't need a spoiler, you can't know how the DMP thing will be handled through story, if at all. It's a de facto story point unless we know otherwise.

Quote:
Anway, if we're gonna worry about spoilers, we should be more courteous to fans in the UK, who haven't seen Season 6 yet. Thus the title of this thread is uncool, spoilerwise!

I believe most everybody in the UK has seen season 6. Anyone who hasn't this long after the US airdate (and main UK airdate) explores message boards at their own risk. Also, I might have argued that a spoiler warning in the thread title would be enough and free people to post w/o spoiler text, but there's that tricky business of linear mode.

No more spoilers ... must have control ... I suppose I check the spoilerslayer just one more time and then that's it. No more...

--- Joe

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Tuesday, June 25, 2002 8:54 AM

NOVAGRASS

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:

No more spoilers ... must have control ... I suppose I check the spoilerslayer just one more time and then that's it. No more...

--- Joe

I know exactly what you mean. Usually, at the beginning of a season, I fall into spoiler city... but I really hate plot spoilers. The early stuff is usually background spoilage, which I don't mind, but it's hard to give them up once the plot spoilers start rolling in!

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

"Nice guys can only get so mad." Fillion on Mal

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Tuesday, June 25, 2002 9:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:

I know exactly what you mean. Usually, at the beginning of a season, I fall into spoiler city... but I really hate plot spoilers. The early stuff is usually background spoilage, which I don't mind, but it's hard to give them up once the plot spoilers start rolling in!

:sigh icon: I never paid attention to spoilers until Buffy did that big swan dive. Then I started going crazy trying to figure out how they'd bring her back. Which actually turned out to be not that big a deal. But I haunted spoilerslayer.com up until May. But no more!

You know it's funny. I might have mentioned that I wasn't a fan until Hush. More specifically, I left my VCR to record a bunch of shows, including Buffy, and left the tape in the machine for over a week, when I was too busy at work to watch TV. So I missed all those "Not a word will be spoken..." promos. So when Buffy came back from brushing her teeth, I hadn't the slightest idea what was about to happen. Which made what happened next pretty damned startling. Rather enhanced my enjoyment of the episode.

Sometimes the worst spoilers are the network promos.

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Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:25 AM

NOVAGRASS

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Sometimes the worst spoilers are the network promos.

Oh, especially the one for Angel's season finale! They *totally* gave away the cliffhanger ending. I think the episode would have sucked less had I not known Angel was going to be sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

*sigh* yet another reason I'm glad Buffy moved to UPN. I can live with the episode previews that have almost nothing to do with the actual episode.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

"Nice guys can only get so mad." Fillion on Mal

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Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:35 AM

Quote:

Sometimes the worst spoilers are the network promos.

Ain't that the truth? Not to mention, they say some REALLY stupid things trying to get you interested in the show.

My all time least favorite Buffy promo were the ones for the finale. "Hell hath no fury.... LIKE A WICCAN SCORNED!"

So, I know that in Joss-verse, Wiccan means "withcy spell girl"... but Wiccanism is actually a ... I don't want to say religion ... but it is definitely a belief system, a lifestyle. It doesn't actually mean spell casting evil witch girl.

I think a lot of people don't understand the idea of Wiccans. I am a Pagan, but not a Wiccan. When I tell someone I'm Pagan, they typically hear "Wiccan". I know that the show is not real, and that they make up most of their demons and rituals, but I wish they didn't misuse Wiccan so much.

(One of my pet peeves... sorry for the rant)

Bunch of wanna blessed be's. Nowadays every girl with a henna tattoo and a spice rack thinks she's a sister to the dark ones.

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Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:46 AM

Well, we'd better not nitpick Joss's semantics too much. Don't get me started on "dimension"! Help, the Earth is being invaded by creatures from the vertical axis!

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Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:49 AM

Back to Spike and his, uh, issues. I think the main reason people prefer to think of Spike as a good guy is that he's played by James Marsters. Who everybody loves. How can they not? He's one of those actors who, as they say, you'd pay to watch recite the phone book.

But Marsters is not Spike. No matter how lovable he acts, remember: he's evil, evil, EVIL!

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Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:10 AM

Is he really evil. So evil you would say he was "EEville"? Like he is the "Fru-its of the De-vil. EEville"?

Help me out here, Spock. I don't speak loser.

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Thursday, June 27, 2002 11:31 AM

He doesn't have a soul! Or didn't. Of course, now all bets are off.

I read somewhere that Spike was supposed to get staked in Season 2. You-know-who couldn't bear to do it, he was just too much fun to write about.

Maybe that's one of the things that went wrong with S6. There was all this sympathy building up for Spike, and they decided they had to remind us that he is, as he himself says, a monster. But when you slam on the brakes like that, it's all too easy to hit the wall.

So anyway, now there are two of them. Wonder if this is the start of a trend?

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Thursday, June 27, 2002 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
So anyway, now there are two of them. Wonder if this is the start of a trend?

Two what? do you mean Vamps with Souls?

A vampire with a soul? Oh my god, how lame is that?

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Sunday, June 30, 2002 6:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
"Fru-its of the De-vil. EEville"?

Tell me where this quote has from! My roommate from three years ago and I bandied this quote back and forth for a year, never remembering where it was from!

My money was always on Kids in the Hall or a Mike Myers movie- she always insisted it was Dana Carvey's Church Lady.

HELP!

Pandora
I can't effing believe that someone else knows that shiznat...

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

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Monday, July 1, 2002 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pandora:
Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
"Fru-its of the De-vil. EEville"?

Tell me where this quote has from! My roommate from three years ago and I bandied this quote back and forth for a year, never remembering where it was from!

My money was always on Kids in the Hall or a Mike Myers movie- she always insisted it was Dana Carvey's Church Lady.

HELP!

It is indeed Mike Myers... it's from "So I Married an Axe Murderer" when he is on the first date with the girl he eventually marries. He follows this up by saying "for example, how many people have you brutally murdered?" to which she replies "Brutal is a subjective word. What is brutal to one person may seem perfectly reasonable to someone else."

hehe

It's true, I am a font of worthless movie/tv/music trivia. I should go on Beat the Geeks. I keep thinking they need to have a Buffy the Vampire Slayer guest geek. hehe.

Buck up you. You kill the best. Go you. Kill, kill.

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Tuesday, July 2, 2002 6:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:

It is indeed Mike Myers... it's from "So I Married an Axe Murderer" when he is on the first date with the girl he eventually marries. He follows this up by saying "for example, how many people have you brutally murdered?" to which she replies "Brutal is a subjective word. What is brutal to one person may seem perfectly reasonable to someone else."

hehe

It's true, I am a font of worthless movie/tv/music trivia. I should go on Beat the Geeks. I keep thinking they need to have a Buffy the Vampire Slayer guest geek. hehe.

Buck up you. You kill the best. Go you. Kill, kill.

Bob... you have now joined the ranks of Haken as my hero! I can't believe I didn't fricken remember that... I need to own this movie, because I've already spent more than the cost of it on rental fees.

And never fear about being a font of worthless trivia... I'm pretty fonty myself.

You're not just a goddess, but an uber-goddess!

Pandora
I wub bob!

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

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Tuesday, July 2, 2002 6:40 AM

... She wubs me!

Yeah, definitely buy it. It's worth owning. I've seen it a million times, and it's still funny every time. It's a special breed of funny to hold up to that. For another fun quotable movie, try Drop Dead Gorgeous (this one had me and 2 of my friends speaking in a Minnesotan accent and saying "Hey to the folks" for MONTHS!).

As for the fontiness, it's served me well, even if I do frequently get comments like "You're a freak, how did you remember that?" In high school I worked in a video store, and this couple came in and said "we're looking for a movie we saw in a preview, but we don't remember the name. It had a helicopter and a bottle of wine..." and I said "Year of the Comet." and showed them where it was. The guy said "was it any good?" to which I responded "I don't know, I haven't seen it." hehe. Freak. I even remember the previews... I kick butt at trivial pursuit.

Last night, you know, did anybody, um... burst into song?

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Friday, July 12, 2002 6:32 AM

MARINO

Started thinking about Spike's soul recently, working my brain overtime to try and figure out how Spike wouldn't become merely an Angel wannabe. And here's what I came up with:

What if Spike doesn't remember anything that's happened to him since he was turned? Just because you get your soul back doesn't mean you'll remember everything that's happened during its absence. What if what made Angel remember was the curse, not the soul itself? In other words, Spike [William] wouldn't feel guilty, or beat himself up, over the things he'd done previously - because he wouldn't remember any of it.

But why would he go back to Sunnydale if he doesn't remember any of it? Next season...

Select to view spoiler:

...the Hellmouth seems to be coming back from its dormancy. If you remember what the Hellmouth does, it draws supernatural beings towards it. So even though Spike/William doesn't remember it, he'd still head in its direction.

Now THAT would make Spike different from Angel, since he'd have to come to terms with the loss of one-hundred and twenty years of progress in the world, as well as deal with the Gang's feelings towards him from what he'd done before the return of his soul.

Just a thought...a theory...some speculation.

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Friday, July 12, 2002 9:37 AM

I had exactly the same thought, though I didn't think it through as thoroughly as you did. There are additional reasons to believe this that you didn't mention:

-- Spike is way more evil than Angelus. Sorry, Spike fans, but it's true. Just because he's funnier and cooler, doesn't mean he's less evil. So traumatic amnesia's a big possibility.

-- Spike got his soul back on purpose. That demon who gave it to him has no reason to make him suffer -- unlike the Romani that cursed Angel.

-- It'd be a damned good story. Wipes the board clean. Nobody will know how to act towards him! All their past prejudices will be irrelevent. How can they resist doing this?!

There is a downside: if he forgets his entire existence as a vampire, the last thing he'll remember is wandering down an ally, moping about being an unappreciated Poetic Genius. William the Bloody Awful is back!

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Friday, July 12, 2002 4:11 PM

The thing is with Spike's soul and all is will they even believe he has his soul back, and if so, will it matter? Probably not to Xander at least (though I think that Dawn and Buffy can be re-suckered).

I don't know if Spike was/is more evil than Angelus. I'll grant you, the Slayer hunting was pretty bad, however, there was plenty of baby killin' for Angelus.

But that's neither here nor there. I think that forgetting his entire time as a vampire would be weak and whack in a number of ways- so much of the character of Spike is rooted in his vampirehood and the things he did during it. Can you imagine William the Bloody Awful regaling us with lovely Spikeisms such as "bloody ponce" or "wanker" or any other great foul British language?

No way!

Disappointment huge. Besides, he wouldn't remember his penchant for the soap opera Passions (an integral character point, IMO).

I guess my rather convoluted point is that if Spike doesn't remember the things he did, he won't be the Spike we know and love.

Now, if he does remember, how to avoid the angst issue?

Well, maybe he'll just disconnect himself from soulless Spike, and consider the things he did not his responsibility (which, in a way, they weren't, really).

Anyway, my other question is:

Are we all convinced that Spike was deliberately seeking out his soul? I haven't seen the episodes, but I've read the shooting scripts, because I'm a nerd, and it seemed there as though he was out for vengeance, not redemption. I'm not totally discounting the possibility, but is there something I missed?

Pandora

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

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Saturday, July 13, 2002 2:31 AM

MARINO

Quote:
Originally posted by Pandora:
I don't know if Spike was/is more evil than Angelus. I'll grant you, the Slayer hunting was pretty bad, however, there was plenty of baby killin' for Angelus.

I wasn't all too sure about Spike being more evil than Angelus either. I always saw his Slayer hunting as a means of proving to himself how much he'd changed.

Quote:
But that's neither here nor there. I think that forgetting his entire time as a vampire would be weak and whack in a number of ways- so much of the character of Spike is rooted in his vampirehood and the things he did during it. Can you imagine William the Bloody Awful regaling us with lovely Spikeisms such as "bloody ponce" or "wanker" or any other great foul British language?

Well, just because he doesn't remember being Spike doesn't mean he's not still there. As for it being 'weak,' I don't think I get your point. How is it weak? It's taking an established character and changing him in a major way. The soul is gonna do that, whether they handle it in the way I suggested or using another method. What would be weak is making him like Angel exactly, or keeping him essentially the same as he was - only a little more likely to do nice things. That, to me, would contradict the enormity of what he had done to him in the season finale.

Select to view spoiler:

According to a recent report by Ain't It Cool News, Spike won't be sporting his bleached hair when the show starts back up this next season. Whether he'll bleach it back later is up in the air.

IMO, giving him back his soul and NOT having it change him in a considerable way would be 'weak.' There should be a noticeable difference between a person with a soul and a person without. The only example we've had previously was Angel and he changes massively when he's one or the other.

Quote:
Disappointment huge. Besides, he wouldn't remember his penchant for the soap opera Passions (an integral character point, IMO).

Oh, I'm certain William the Bloody Flake would love Passions. And besides, I haven't really said he'd be more William than he is Spike. Not remembering your past doesn't mean it didn't still happen. And besides, they've been changing the character for years now. Got the chip in his head and became a LOT different. Yes, he still had his funny wit and Spike-isms, but he became sort of a whiner and then a Buffy lapdog.

And let's say he would be Willaim: What's to say he'd be the same as he was? He's a vampire. Imagine if you're a fairly decent guy back in the 1880's, your bitten by something you can only imagine is a demon, and you wake up 120 years later without any memory of the last century's progress and find yourself a vampire. Not to mention the fact that you find yourself the target of harsh verbal and personal attacks by people you don't know who claim that you've hurt them.

If what I'm claiming is a possibility DOES, in fact, happen, don't expect William to be the same - not at all. This would be traumatizing, and it would provide James Marsters with a LOT to do next season. With the Spike lingo or not, I've a feeling he could pull anything off as an actor.

Quote:
Are we all convinced that Spike was deliberately seeking out his soul?

Well...when I saw it, I didn't think he went after it on purpose. I thought he wanted vengeance as well. But James mentioned in an interview that he was thrown by the fact that Joss had told him over the hiatus that he WAS after his soul in the first place. Since they had left it a bit ambiguous, it allowed the writers to decide either way over the hiatus and that's what they apparentally decided on. *shrug*

And remember: The idea of him not remembering his past, that's just my idea. Not necessarily what they're gonna do. But you put together everything that's happened on this show, and how much all of these characters have changed, and I don't see why having this happen to Spike would be such a major tragedy.

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Saturday, July 13, 2002 6:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MarinO:
And remember: The idea of him not remembering his past, that's just my idea. Not necessarily what they're gonna do. But you put together everything that's happened on this show, and how much all of these characters have changed, and I don't see why having this happen to Spike would be such a major tragedy.

My major concerns are the following:

a)That Spike not be given a clean slate because he went too far and now they have to do something that extreme to make him redeemable

b)The character of Spike being compromised. Change is good and natural, and so is development. The suggestions you've made as to how the change can be handled are well and good, but if your speculation turns out to be reality, I would really hate for the difference between Evil Spike and Soul Spike to be the same as the difference between Evil Angel and Soul Angel. (Because, let's face it, Soul Angel, even remembering all his past deeds, is way, way different than Angelus.) A major part of Spike is his edge. Granted, he has been castrated, chipped, and weakened (though I personally think the whininess and poutiness were always there, he just had killing as a means of detracting from it), but he is/was still edgy- mean, sarcastic, and basically a right bastard. I'd hate to see him become a big poetic wussy. (That's right, I said wussy. And what?)

c)Weak plotting around such a premise. Don't get me wrong, I have great faith in Joss, but S6 shook me. There were so many things that I think could have been genuinely good if they'd been handled better that ended up being bad or mediocre. There are a hundred thousand things that could go wrong with a Spike Forgets All plot- ME has never been one to give up the happy too easily, but then, Willow's evil came way too easily (disregarding what I think might be considered some major inconsistencies).

Anyway, it's only my opinion.

Pandora

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

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Saturday, July 13, 2002 6:28 AM

Quote:
Besides, he wouldn't remember his penchant for the soap opera Passions (an integral character point, IMO).

No, I think we'll find his love of soap operas to be very fundamental. It'll be one of the few things William the Bloody Awful and Spike the Slayer Slayer have in common.

Remember Spike's list of reasons for not destroying the world in Becoming? In the shooting script it includes "Love Boat"!

Quote:
Are we all convinced that Spike was deliberately seeking out his soul? I haven't seen the episodes, but I've read the shooting scripts, because I'm a nerd, and it seemed there as though he was out for vengeance, not redemption. I'm not totally discounting the possibility, but is there something I missed?

In that big panel thing at ATAS, Whedon said that Spike always meant to get his soul back. But Marsters says that he was directed to act as if he was trying to get his chip removed. Interesting interview here:

http://actionadventure.about.com/library/weekly/2002/aa062402.htm

Anyway, the business of him going through all those painful and dangerous rituals to get his chip removed never made sense. It's a medical problem, not a mystical one. He would found a neurosurgeon, like that other initiative guy only better qualified.

Anyway, you don't read the shooting scripts because you're a nerd, you read them because they're fun to read! I particularly like the off-the-wall comments in Whedon's scripts. "A beat as Buffy catches her breath. Then the HULKING VAMP is on her. FITE! (and if we can afford it) FITE! FITE!!"

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Saturday, July 13, 2002 8:41 AM

Sorry if this isn't a good contribution, because I've only been sort of halfway reading this thread - being worried about spoilers makes my comprehension of the thread fuzzy. A couple of tracks seem to be going on in this discussion that seem to be missing some key elements, though. In "Surprise/Innocence" the Judge said, in the first, to Spike and Dru "You two stink of humanity" and, in the second, to Angelus, "This one cannot be burnt. He is clean," meaning pure evil. And given that the Judge did have this power, I accept his statements. Angelus with a chip would have been able to physically intimidate other vampires and lead them into assaulting Buffy and others by proxy. Spike, with a chip, could have done this but restricted himself to "The Yoko Factor" activities and whatnot, while also ending up helping the Scoobys and trying to win Buffy's affections rather than kill her. And, even when he found out he could kill her, chip or not, he didn't. Stack up against this the completely incoherent demolition of his character in "Seeing Red" - and stack up against that in turn, that it was arguably Spike being insane more than simply evil. Anyway - point being that Angelus is the evil one, more than Spike.

Then, there's "Crush" in which Dawn said, "I'm not even human. Not originally" to which Spike replied, "Yeah, well, originally I was. I got over it. Doesn't seem to me it matters very much how you start out." And I'd say that Spike would also figure it wouldn't matter much where you'd been in the meantime. It's where you ARE that matters. So even if Spike had been the evil one, Angel's also the angsty guilty one. Spike is capable of moving on. Like when the issue of drinking blood came up and he said, "I'm a vampire. It's what I do!" Same with any bad acts in his past. He'd say, "I was a vampire. It's what I did. Now I'm not and I don't. Let's move along, people!"

So I don't see him as being anything like Angel and don't see him as needing any sort of amnesia to avoid it.

But if you'd hung at the BronzeShelter last year, you'd have seen me theorizing at long length about Spike because his character's fascinated me since it was introduced... and you'd have seen everything I said turned to nonsense as s6 played out. (And not in the good way of "surprising" me but in the way of disappointing me.) The same will probably happen in s7.

Last note, though: Buffy and Faith are Slayers. Was Faith doing Buffy again, or Kendra? And Angelus and Spike were both vampires - was Angelus doing Spike again? So now Spike may be a "vamp with a soul" but this certainly doesn't mean it's doing Angel again. They are completely different characters, so playing out the "soulful" arc can't be the "same thing" and doesn't need any special devices to avoid repetition. People (or beings) may share a classification, but they're still individuals.

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Saturday, July 13, 2002 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by J:
Anyway - point being that Angelus is the evil one, more than Spike.

Many Spike redemptionists use selective evidence to "prove" that Spike has always been a fluffy puppy, not evil. Or at least less evil than Angel. I think it's as silly as arguing whether or not Stalin was more evil than Hitler (Joseph is responsible for millions more deaths by genocide than Adolf, IIRC). What's the point? Spike and Angel both killed thousands, and had pleasure in it. Sure, their natures are different: Spike loves; Angel ... I don't know what his deal is. But Spike's love motivated him to kill (for Dru). I fail see how Spike's human nature overcomes his vampire nature -- that's prior to chip. Post-chip Spike is a different post. And now he has a soul, so it's a whole new ballgame.

And if the writers say souled Spike *will* be different from Angel, then I trust they have more twists in store.
--- Joe

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Saturday, July 13, 2002 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Anyway, the business of him going through all those painful and dangerous rituals to get his chip removed never made sense. It's a medical problem, not a mystical one. He would found a neurosurgeon, like that other initiative guy only better qualified.

Others complain that these tests *for* the soul don't make sense either -- it means anyone's soul can be restored and Buffy is killing demons (whose soulless-ness isn't their fault, they were born that way) who can otherwise be "saved." I don't agree. It's implausible that a soulless demon (inherently evil, according to Joss) would want to endure a bad haircut to get a soul, much less fights to the death. Why Spike, then? Obvously, the chip *has* changed him to some extent.

What's interesting is that in the recent "Death of Buffy" arc in the comics, Spike's trip to Africa is hinted at as being all about the chip. In BUFFY 45, set last summer, a contact of his says to him: "I can finally leave this cursed town and complete my surgery in Africa ... If you ever need anybody to cut you up, darling ... remember Africa."

OTOH, this really doesn't mean anything. The comic writer's are given very scant outlines of what's to come (they didn't even know Buffy would die). It's possible at the time they were told about Africa, the show writers were planning chip removal. Another explanation, as this comic was supposed to be released before the season finale, is that it was meant to be another mislead.

--- Joe

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Saturday, July 13, 2002 12:45 PM

That wasn't my point. The example was saying that Dalton got vaporized, despite being a vamp and, ipso facto, a multiple-times-killer; whereas Angel was unharmed by the Judge. And while the Judge didn't actually attempt to vaporize Spike or Dru, he implied that he could have and Spike and Dru had to remind him who was in charge to avoid having that put to the test. There's nothing selective in that, nor does it attempt to prove Spike was a fluffy puppy. The point of it was simply to say that Angel and Spike are different and would deal with his different baggage differently. So we shouldn't have to worry about any broody Spike being another Angel.

What I think is silly is comparing two fictional vampires to two real dictatorial genocidal humans in what is supposed to be a relaxed and entertaining discussion about a TV show. It tends to bounce the discussion over into much less entertaining issues and I'd prefer not to go there. As an example of such unpleasant topic drift, I might say we would do well to remember that the US and Britain didn't think it was silly when they decided Stalin was less evil and allied themselves with him in order to defeat Hitler. If they'd have said, "What's the point? - let's fight them both," they'd have been defeated and none of us would be here now. And to wrap it back around to the show, Buffy allied herself briefly with an unchipped and fully vamp Spike to deal with Angelus - an accomodation that would have been impossible with Angelus.

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Saturday, July 13, 2002 1:03 PM

Good point.

--- Joe

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Saturday, July 13, 2002 1:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:

Many Spike redemptionists use selective evidence to "prove" that Spike has always been a fluffy puppy, not evil. Or at least less evil than Angel. I think it's as silly as arguing whether or not Stalin was more evil than Hitler (Joseph is responsible for millions more deaths by genocide than Adolf, IIRC). What's the point? Spike and Angel both killed thousands, and had pleasure in it. Sure, their natures are different: Spike loves; Angel ... I don't know what his deal is. But Spike's love motivated him to kill (for Dru). I fail see how Spike's human nature overcomes his vampire nature -- that's prior to chip. Post-chip Spike is a different post. And now he has a soul, so it's a whole new ballgame.

--- Joe

Ok, I think that the most important difference between Angelus and pre-chip Spike (who will henceforth be referred to as PCS) is basic personality. They both were soulless, which assumably made them both amoral. Which is not necessarily to say immoral (though that's the way it went a lot of the time).

Being a vampire is definitely to some extent or another about being evil. The degree of evil seems to depend on preference.

For example, PCS seemed always to kill with a purpose. To prove himself, to fill a need, to get done what he wanted done. Not to say that he was angsting about it, or balked at the idea, but I'm not quite sure he obsessed over it. Angelus, on the other hand, always seemed to have a lust for it. He and Darla enjoyed killing- their murderous activities seemed to resemble those types of people who always like to party, only the next bump, hit, or shot was a murder, rather than a drug or drink. They were kind of your vampire bon vivants.

Maybe this is indicative of their pre-vampire natures. As we saw in the flashback where Angelus was first embraced, he was a party boy from the start, always looking for a good time and the satisfaction of his lusts. Spike, on the other hand, was William the Bloody Weenie. Angelus was just living up to his nature, partying as hard and as wildly as he could, always on the edge of danger just for the rush. PCS was about proving that he was not a weenie (and prove it he did, sorta), and of course, about personal/emotional gain (but that goes for any vampire, I'd guess).

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

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Sunday, July 14, 2002 8:20 AM

"Spike Redemptionist"? This conversation is getting way too serious!

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Sunday, July 14, 2002 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
"Spike Redemptionist"? This conversation is getting way too serious!

What do you expect? You put a bunch of intelligent and articulate geeks on a site and ask them to talk about happenings in a fairly consistent fictional universe, the collegiate $10 terms are gonna come out.

Besides, all this stuff is really interesting from a character analysis viewpoint...

Pandora

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

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Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:29 PM

SHUGGIE

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
"Spike Redemptionist"? This conversation is getting way too serious!

Do you visit many Buffy forums? Hang out in alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer some time - this thread is frivolous by comparison.

I mean we've had the "did Spike really want a soul?" question raised and dealt with in what? 2 posts - the thread over at ATBVS is in the hundreds and shows little sign of slowing. And the Spike Redemptionista (as they sometimes like to be called) are big over there. As are the anti-redemptionists.

Anyway to veer vaguely back in the direction of the topic - I think an ensouled Spike will be interesting. I think the precedent set by Angel and Darla is that he won't be quite Spike as we know him now, nor William the B.A.P. I think the memory-loss thing would be a cop-out - a way of Spike not having to deal with his past.

Shug

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Monday, July 15, 2002 4:43 AM

Quote:
Do you visit many Buffy forums? Hang out in alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer some time - this thread is frivolous by comparison.

Yeah, well that's precisely why I don't go on Usenet anymore. Too many people take this stuff way too serious. It's one thing to be passionate about an imaginary universe. It's another thing to start turning it into an ideological squabble. Already have enough of those in real life!

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Monday, July 15, 2002 5:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Yeah, well that's precisely why I don't go on Usenet anymore. Too many people take this stuff way too serious. It's one thing to be passionate about an imaginary universe. It's another thing to start turning it into an ideological squabble. Already have enough of those in real life!

Seems the beauty of this place is that you have the choice of whether to participate in ideological discussion or frivolity... Ain't life grand?

Pandora
Vive la difference!

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

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Tuesday, July 16, 2002 2:44 AM

SHUGGIE

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
Do you visit many Buffy forums? Hang out in alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer some time - this thread is frivolous by comparison.

Yeah, well that's precisely why I don't go on Usenet anymore. Too many people take this stuff way too serious. It's one thing to be passionate about an imaginary universe. It's another thing to start turning it into an ideological squabble. Already have enough of those in real life!

I know what you mean. I remember when I naively got in the middle of a "Can Spike be Redeemed?" debate and said something like "I don't care which way they go as long as it's entertaining". So the redemptionists hated me because I pointed out Spike might possibly be still a tad, you know, evil. And the anti-redemptionists hated me because I didn't want Spike dusted right away. (He's evil and entertaining - what a concept!)

If you fancy a more relaxed usenet group - check out uk.media.tv.buffy-v-slayer. I think it's more friendly. People still take the show seriously but there's less of a religious war type feeling. Although you'd be wise to read the FAQ - they don't let top-posters or unmarked spoilers off lightly.

I'm not much for web forums because they tend to be slow to load and a lot of them are linear which are hard to follow (Is it me or is 90% of the traffic on Bronze Beta 'shout-outs' to other posters?)

Shug

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Tuesday, July 16, 2002 3:32 AM