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Objects in Space question

POSTED BY: RIVERNOT
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 20:10
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Monday, November 14, 2005 1:29 PM

RIVERNOT


I just rewatched Objects In Space today (one of my favorite episodes) and there was something in it that has always bothered me.

River is roaming the ship and hearing the crew's thoughts. Jayne says, "I got stupid. The money was too good." He's looking right at her, just like Simon and Inara are when she hears their thoughts (and Kaylee looks at her while Simon's thoughts are heard). Then Shepherd Book says with a snear and a mean, vile voice, "I don't give half a hump if you're inocent or not. So, where does that put you?" He doesn't look at here but looks at the table as if he can't stand the site of her (or am I reading too much into this?). What's with that? I understand why Mal's not looking at her when everyone else is (he hurts and has turned inward), but I don't understand Book at all. It seems so unlike him, or is this something buried in there left over from his previous (possible operative) life that he battles with? I just don't get it.

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Monday, November 14, 2005 1:33 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Oops! You posted in the wrong forum, dear. You might want to move it to the Firefly Episode forum if you want answers (I believe there already is a thread discussing this there).

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

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Monday, November 14, 2005 1:45 PM

THIEFJEHAT


There are in fact several threads that have discussed this since 2003. Yes. Move this to the Firefly episode forum and all shall be revealed to you.



Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Monday, November 14, 2005 2:52 PM

HYDRAGON


It's not even certain that Book is thinking about River. Mal and Inara weren't. Maybe he was thinking about himself...

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Monday, November 14, 2005 3:02 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


I actually think that quote from Book suggests that he was not an Operative. The Operative is always calm and he displays no negative feelings towards those he eliminates.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Monday, November 14, 2005 4:10 PM

RIVERNOT


Quote:
Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
Oops! You posted in the wrong forum, dear.

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon


Woops! I thought I clicked new thread, but I've a head cold, so who really knows what I did.

Thanks for the help.

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Monday, November 14, 2005 4:46 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Was Book even talking about River. Jayne was there too (Jayne was there too right? Right now I'm in a fog.).



----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, November 14, 2005 7:18 PM

HYDRAGON


Quote:
Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
I actually think that quote from Book suggests that he was not an Operative. The Operative is always calm and he displays no negative feelings towards those he eliminates.


I think that Book was an ex-Operative. He lost faith in the Alliance, left forever, and changed his name...er...gave himself a name...whatever, and became a Shepherd.

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Monday, November 14, 2005 10:04 PM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:
Originally posted by Hydragon:
It's not even certain that Book is thinking about River. Mal and Inara weren't. Maybe he was thinking about himself...


Eureka!
I have been uncomfortable about this bit since I first saw it. Seemed so unlike steady, solid Book, and though I recognized that Mal & Inara weren't talking about River, it didn't occur to me that Book might have been obsessing about something wretched in his past.

Thanks to viral marketing...SERENITY: reopening soon in a theater near you.
Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

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Monday, November 14, 2005 10:33 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:
Originally posted by Hydragon:
I think that Book was an ex-Operative. He lost faith in the Alliance, left forever, and changed his name...er...gave himself a name...whatever, and became a Shepherd.

Book said "I don't give half a hump if you're inocent or not. So, where does that put you?" That is not something the Operative from the movie would have said. I would assume that all the operatives would have received the same training and conditioning and they would all behave and think similarly to the Operative from the movie.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 5:08 AM

RIVERNOT


Quote:
Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
Quote:
I would assume that all the operatives would have received the same training and conditioning and they would all behave and think similarly to the Operative from the movie.


While operatives may have the same training and conditioning, though this is an assumption we're making that may not be the case (consider the different military branches and their special forces--similar training for similar objectives), I don't think it would make operatives all exactly the same in their personal behavior/beliefs (except where it directly determines the outcome of the job). Making them into automatons would limit their ability to react in different situations. While their physical capabilities and their knowledge would have been provided for in their training, they would still be individuals.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 5:10 AM

RIVERNOT


Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hydragon:
It's not even certain that Book is thinking about River. Mal and Inara weren't. Maybe he was thinking about himself...


Eureka!
...it didn't occur to me that Book might have been obsessing about something wretched in his past.


Wow, me either. Thanks!

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 3:22 PM

THIEFJEHAT


River's psychic journey in OIS is full of layers to be uncovered.

1. The crew does not directly interact with her because she isn't there, she's projecting.

2. When she was sleeping at the episodes outset we hear what she hears...the psychic voices of the crew members. She is at home with these people and it is peaceful to her which is why she sleeps. Then we hear Early's voice say "We're all just floating" and Boom! she awakens. Early doesn't belong and it unsettles her.

3. Each statement made by a crew member to River is a statement cut from that crew members past or their future. Also, each statement is related to a part of themselves they want to keep hidden.

---Simon "I'd be there right now" relates to his secret longing to still be a trauma surgeon. He delivers this line later in the episode right before he moves to kiss Kaylee and is interupted by Book.

---Jayne "I got stupid, the money was too good" relates to his guilt of trying to sell River and Simon out and his fear that they'll seek revenge. He delivered this line to Mal from the airlock in Ariel.

---Book "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?" A grand mystery and the point of this thread. The most common accepted theory is that this was a line delivered by Book in his past when he was an agent(or possibly an operative) of the Alliance. The extended theory is that this was delivered to an innocent man during the unification war, possibly an independence soldier/sympathizer who was executed by Book. These events were to be shown to us in a flashback sequence in season 2.

---Inara "I'm a big girl, just tell me" relates to the moment when she was informed on Sihnon by her doctor that she was terminal and dying.

---Mal "None of it means a damn thing" Mal's is the biggest mystery of all. The theory of Mal's past involves the title theme of the show...namely "Take my Love" and "Take my land" which (possibly) refer to the death of Mal's bride he took as a teenager and the loss of his family's cattle ranch to the Alliance as a part of an occupation policy to curb rim world rebellion. These were forces that drove him to join the Independence. His statement in OIS is believed to come from a flashback sequence in season 2 designed to outline Mal's past and reflect his anger/loss of his land and his bride.

4. Each of the above statements is a dark secret the person is trying to hide from the rest of the crew.

5. It's important to note that Kaylee says nothing. Joss has said over and over that Kaylee wears all of her emotions on her sleeve and holds no secrets. In fact Jewel said at Dragoncon that the line from the film "I haven't had naught twixt my nethers weren't run on batteries" was a line she wanted to deliever at a half-whisper like we might do in public...but he called cut and said that she had to deliver this line without pause because Kaylee by nature throws all her emotions out on the table. This is why River hears nothing from her. Kaylee has no dark secrets and tells everybody her feelings by nature. This is why River plays at being a girl with her..i.e. running with apples, playing jacks, ect.. River feels more innocent with Kaylee.

6. River's Amigdlya was stripped from her brain. This was done by her tormentors to qwell her emotion and enhance phychic ability. By not being able to push fears and secrets to the back of her mind, it is easier for her to hone in on the fears and secrets of others. This makes her an even more deadly weapon. Note also that she uses this ability against Early with statements about the golden retrever, Early's mother and Early's sadism.


All of these things are found in older archived threads on this site if you dig around a bit.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 3:55 PM

PINGJING


That was an excellent and thorough summary, Thiefjehat. I just have to quibble with two things - I don't think Inara is dying (I think she may be addicted to a youth drug, not too hard to believe if your career depends on your looks). And Nathan's love from the ballad isn't necessarily a bride - could be his family. But I think some of what you're saying is tongue-in-cheek anyway, since you're referring to season 2...

I really liked your thoughts on Kaylee, btw. I hadn't thought about her not having any dark secrets. She does have an evil look on her face while Simon is saying what's on his mind, though. What do you make of that?

Julia

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 4:25 PM

THIEFJEHAT


Quote:

I really liked your thoughts on Kaylee, btw. I hadn't thought about her not having any dark secrets. She does have an evil look on her face while Simon is saying what's on his mind, though. What do you make of that?


It's funny you should ask, I have often wondered about that myself. I tend to think that her facial expression isn't ment to be a mean thing, more of a "really really blank look". When River is extending a psychic focus on Simon all other things are just background items. I have the feeling Joss directed Jewel to just deliver the best blank look she could. I had wanted to ask this question to Jewel at DragonCon during the Q&A sessions but the line was so long I never did.

Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2005 5:23 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:
Originally posted by RiverNot:
While operatives may have the same training and conditioning, though this is an assumption we're making that may not be the case (consider the different military branches and their special forces--similar training for similar objectives), I don't think it would make operatives all exactly the same in their personal behavior/beliefs (except where it directly determines the outcome of the job). Making them into automatons would limit their ability to react in different situations. While their physical capabilities and their knowledge would have been provided for in their training, they would still be individuals.

It's certainly true that they don't all have to have the same behavior but they have to have the same or very simiar beliefs. At the very least all the Operatives would have to be blindly loyal to the Alliance.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 7:09 AM

RIVERNOT


Quote:
Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
It's certainly true that they don't all have to have the same behavior but they have to have the same or very simiar beliefs. At the very least all the Operatives would have to be blindly loyal to the Alliance.


Maybe this is why the Alliance started doing things like they did with River. Maybe they realized they couldn't rely on just blind loyalty from "traditionally" trained operatives, who still had a mind of their own (albiet rather contorted), but needed more precise control and few variables, fewer questions, etc. Maybe it wasn't just a couple of incidences of operatives, as in The Operative and, probably, Shepherd Book "leaving the fold," as it were.

Thinking about it, The Operative had a major flaw that would have been eliminated with the advent of operatives like River (had they kept her). He liked to talk too much, hence his own downfall at Mal's hands. Book, assuming he was an operative, probably also had a "flaw" that caused him to skip out at some point. That free will thing (manifested in personal style? The Operative's sword thing, for instance) that made an operative able to adjust to fluid situations could, in some cases, be a liability rather than an asset. So, the Alliance got rid of that pesky free will and, taadaa, they got River.


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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 3:17 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Too bad they never completed River's training, they didn't even break River's will. I bet the Academy has lots of wonderful ways to train the remaining students *insert maniacal laughter*. I posted two ideas in my most recent log.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 3:57 PM

RIVER6213


ThiefJehat said:

---Inara "I'm a big girl, just tell me" relates to the moment when she was informed on Sihnon by her doctor that she was terminal and dying.
--------------------------------------------------

Where in the series or movie did it even suggested that Inara is sick or dying? Did I miss something?

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Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:10 PM

THIEFJEHAT


Quote:

Where in the series or movie did it even suggested that Inara is sick or dying? Did I miss something?


There are several things hidden throughout the series. I'll walk you through the ones I know.

1. In the pilot episode we first meet Inara when she is with her client on Persephone. After their session they spend some time talking. He asks her about Sihnon and she explains that she was born there and goes on to gush about the great city of Sihnon being like "an ocean of light". (now the important part) His response is to state "I can't imagine ever leaving" At that point we "hear" Inara respond but we "see" her look away in regret. This was a Joss Whedon storytelling device to call our attention to a fact that she never wanted to leave in the first place.

2. When Mal rents the shuttle to Inara in the flashback sequence in Out of Gas he questions her motives about wanting to ship out on a common cargo vessle like Serenity instead of a luxury liner. He asks her "what are you running from?" To someone as intutive as Mal, there is certainly something strange going on. Inara is not forthcoming and changes the subject.

3. In Heart of Gold, Nadie talks about her time on Sihnon with Inara and how they were apprentices together. She states that Inara was by far one of the most talented companions to emerge from the guild and that she could have been house priestess one day. Nadie expresses the shock that ran through the guild when Inara stated she was leaving. Nobody had cause to expect that such an astonishing thing could occur.

4. (The most important piece in this puzzle) In the commentary for Out of Gas we are told that a scene between Simon and Inara contains a vital clue regarding the secret Inara holds. This is stated to us clearly and distictly. The scene itself is when Inara and Simon are sitting alone and Simon begins to nervously explain what will happen as they suffocate to death. Inara states that she does not want a clinical description of the suffication process. Simon replys that he never expected to die this way and Inara says:
"I DON'T WANT TO DIE." When she says this she does not look at Simon. She looks away and speaks in a manner more like she's speaking to herself and on a second level beyond the simple situation they are involved in. THIS is the secret. She is terminal.

5. In OIS she psychically states to river "I'm a big girl, just tell me". As previously established by me in the above post, this relates (as all the other statements made to river do) to a dark secret Inara holds. When it is combined with our understanding of what we were told in the OOG commentary we come to understand that this is her statement to a doctor as she learns she is sick.

6. I know that the needle is in some way related to all of this. Morrena stated at DragonCon that the needle was involved with Inara's secret when asked in the Q&A on day 3. She would not go into further details since she had been ordered by Joss to keep silent on the matter. She did say that if Firefly ever dies the final death and there is no chance the show gets ressurected, she will reveal all the details of Inara's secret and how the needle relates to it.

So now the cliffnotes of the above information:
-Inara is sick, it may end her life.
-It caused her to leave Sihnon, why we don't know.
-She did not want to leave and this pains her.
-She holds this secret close to her heart and will tell nobody, not even the crew she's grown to love as family.



Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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