Xander was a Fool to Leave Anya at the Altar by RiveR6213

It's not the choice not to marry her I consider bad, which I have said before.

It's the delay in coming to that decision. Which wasn't necessary.

And I'm not saying that people are capable of being perfect 100% of the time, but I think the standard should remain what it is. Mine will, anyway. You don't make things right simply by not calling them wrong.

Just to read your use of the word "failed" already makes me almost satisfied, actually, because it's not "he was confused" or "emotionally intoxicated" or "at the appropriate maturity level for his age" or anything else that pretends he did anything other than (spectacularly) fail at doing the thing he should have. Which was to use him head before the wedding day.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:19 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Why so snappy?

And just like I'm not concerned with matters of who deserved what, I'm not really interested in matters of punishment, either. That's your idea.

Not snappy (snippy?), just trying to look at it not from within the situation.
As to punishment...Galactic Tribunal...Lost In Space, get it?
No?
Damn, I am old....

Anyway, I'm just in this discussion for the fun of it, no hostility here.

NOW GIVE XANDER A GORRAM BREAK!!!!

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Not snappy (snippy?), just trying to look at it not from within the situation.
As to punishment...Galactic Tribunal...Lost In Space, get it?
No?
Damn, I am old....

Maybe you're old. Maybe I'm just sci-fi ignorant... In fact, I probably am.

It's a failing....

Quote:

NOW GIVE XANDER A GORRAM BREAK!!!!

Chrisisall

I would, if I felt he really realized what he did, honest!

Instead, I will stare at him with the pitiless eyes of judgment for all of eternity.

(Mwaha!)

On the upside, I doubt Xander much cares. *G*

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:59 PM

MOHRSTOUTBEARD

If you guys are going to keep talking about this, would it be too much to ask to edit the title so nobody else gets spoiled, please? Loose lips sink ships, after all.

------------------
"Remember, there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 4:16 PM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
not even Anya an ex-Vengeance demon deserved that.
Let's take a step back in the Galactic Tribunal here....
Anyanka, you are found guilty of quite a few hundred counts of murder, disfiguration, transmogrification, torture, time-line alteration, and self-rightiousness. You are hereby sentanced to be left at the altar by your boyfriend, and killed quickly at the final battle of the Sunnydale Hellmouth.

She got off lightly in the big picture, don't you think?

Judge Chrisisall

No, she didn't deserve that at all. If I had been her I would have left out of Xander's life forever and gone to another city. Honestly, she could have done WAY better than that one-eyed freak.

-River

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:57 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

I'd take him in a heartbeat! you know, if I were a tv/comic character. I love Xander. Always have, always will.

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003

"In Joss We Trust."

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:01 AM

Quote:

No, she didn't deserve that at all. If I had been her I would have left out of Xander's life forever and gone to another city. Honestly, she could have done WAY better than that one-eyed freak.

-River

Could she really? Like who? Xander was by the standards of 'the gang' relatively easy: He was the only one with a proper job in the end, he regarded the world from a more human point of view than anyone else and he ultimately did not succumb to the demonic/supernatural trappings that many of the others did. He also kept Buffy Slaying and reassured her and Dawn on countless of occasions. Plus he suppressed the mad and hysterically insane willow resulting in him saving the world.

I dunno - if a guy who saves the world isn't good enough for Anya then NOBODY is surely....

Anya was emotionally immature (remember how she demanded Xander sleep with her so she could 'get over him' I think it was season four - granted she was adjusting to the whole being human thing so that's understandable, however she then developed a worrying obsession for money. And her past was catching up with her. To me she seemed like trouble with not enough endearing qualities to justify her past.

She was a great character though and extremely funny.

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:21 AM

Rouka running off on tangents again!

I just wanted to comment on this particular bit:

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

I dunno - if a guy who saves the world isn't good enough for Anya then NOBODY is surely....

Saving the world has diddly squat to do with what sort of catch a person is in a relationship.

Having achieved heroic feats or being someone else's good friend... irrelevant. What matters is how the other half of one's relationship is treated.

I'm sure there are heroes out there who neglect their children or beat them or cheat on their spouses.

They save other people or were in the right place at the right time with the right people - or maybe they had the moral compass to fight for the right thing until they succeeded - but are still incapable of treating their partner with respect and attention.

I never get when people fail to make that distinction.

As if romantic love is somehow a prize to be won for unrelated things. Or as if heroism in one area immediately erases all negative aspects of a personality.

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:28 AM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Rouka running off on tangents again!

I just wanted to comment on this particular bit:

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

I dunno - if a guy who saves the world isn't good enough for Anya then NOBODY is surely....

Saving the world has diddly squat to do with what sort of catch a person is in a relationship.

Having achieved heroic feats or being someone else's good friend... irrelevant. What matters is how the other half of one's relationship is treated.

I'm sure there are heroes out there who neglect their children or beat them or cheat on their spouses.

They save other people or were in the right place at the right time with the right people - or maybe they had the moral compass to fight for the right thing until they succeeded - but are still incapable of treating their partner with respect and attention.

I never get when people fail to make that distinction.

As if romantic love is somehow a prize to be won for unrelated things. Or as if heroism in one area immediately erases all negative aspects of a personality.

Strangely enough my creep of a father came to mind when you said that. Any way, you won't find me even thinking about arguing your point because you are 100% correct.

-River

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:06 AM

Well you see point being that had the world not been saved by one said Xander Harris - you could say his intentions were just selfish. But they weren't he wanted to save the world inspite of the sixth year of battling to keep it afloat. I merely used that example to illustrate this.

In stark contrast to ANYA who at the end of season three actually ran away from the impending battle. Leaving Xander Harris behind to face the music solo..... (See my point)

Also can we just make the distinction that I am talking within the context of the Buffy world and NOT the real world. Your thoughts somehow strayed into making me seem like some social stereotype who worships the very ground that a commonly regarded hero might walk on.

Of course the odd decent act doesn't make a person all great and mighty- but that's a different issue, and I'm not making a social comment on today's society.

AGENTROUKA wrote:

Quote:
As if romantic love is somehow a prize to be won for unrelated things. Or as if heroism in one area immediately erases all negative aspects of a personality.[

I dont think this btw.

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:11 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Saving the world has diddly squat to do with what sort of catch a person is in a relationship.

Having achieved heroic feats or being someone else's good friend... irrelevant. What matters is how the other half of one's relationship is treated.

While I absolutely agree with your point, I'm not sure it applies to Xander. He was a pretty good catch.

And as to previous statements, boy am I glad you're not judge of the world. Your standards are unbelievably high (and that's coming from someone who is often told that their standards are too high). Most of the world is disconnected from their true feelings.

And when I use "fail" it means "made a mistake".

Xander erred. It wasn't accidental, but it wasn't intentional, either. It's awfully hard to tell someone that they should've realized something sooner. You might realize it sooner, but someone else might not. We don't all think alike, so while it's valid to say that Xander should've known sooner (probably because you feel you would've known sooner) he obviously didn't. When he did realize it, he made a change, which I applaud him for, instead of just letting things play out, the choice most people make.

I have realized that neither of us are going to change the others minds, though. So I'll stop now.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:20 AM

I'll just accept your judgment of my judgment.

Not to mention, I meant it when I said I don't care about punishment. So either way the world would be safe from me. I only like calling certain actions by names, because I like when people accept their own failings, the better to overcome them. Responsibility is sexy.

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Well you see point being that had the world not been saved by one said Xander Harris - you could say his intentions were just selfish. But they weren't he wanted to save the world inspite of the sixth year of battling to keep it afloat. I merely used that example to illustrate this.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. I never implied that saving the world is a selfish act..?

Quote:

In stark contrast to ANYA who at the end of season three actually ran away from the impending battle. Leaving Xander Harris behind to face the music solo..... (See my point)

Yes, I see battles and saving the world.. still not seeing the relationship connection. (I actually don't.)

Quote:

Also can we just make the distinction that I am talking within the context of the Buffy world and NOT the real world. Your thoughts somehow strayed into making me seem like some social stereotype who worships the very ground that a commonly regarded hero might walk on.

I don't mean to paint you as a stereotype. I merely reacted to what I felt your words implied.

By those words, you did somehow consider Xander's saving the world a factor in his relationship-with-Anya-worthiness (instead of counting their personal compatibility), which is the thing I am disputing.

You said " a guy who saves the world". Not "Xander", which reduces him to just that definition, as if all else is discounted. So, if anything, it was easy to get confused about it.

And while the things you listed all speak for his character, it's not those actions or relationships that matter in whether he's a catch (as in, great match) for Anya. It's his relationship with and actions toward Anya.

And indicator could be his relationships with other romantic interests.

Judging by his relationship with Cordelia, I would NOT class Xander a great catch. Obviously, things were better with Anya, so they were more compatible, but I'll let everyone else be the judge of that. I'm merely talking factors, not results.

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 6:15 AM

Quote:
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. I never implied that saving the world is a selfish act..?

No sorry about that I seemed to have erased a line from what I'd intended writing. No my point was that his act [Xander] of saving the world, was not an act of selfishness. Surely a plus on the character points no?

Quote:
Yes, I see battles and saving the world.. still not seeing the relationship connection. (I actually don't.)

Nothing to do with relationship connection. I am merely saying that Xander was good enough for Anya. He frequently displayed selfless acts (as the one previously stated) where in similar circumstances Anya did not.

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I don't mean to paint you as a stereotype. I merely reacted to what I felt your words implied.

Fair enough.

Quote:
By those words, you did somehow consider Xander's saving the world a factor in his relationship-with-Anya-worthiness (instead of counting their personal compatibility), which is the thing I am disputing.

No I was rather flippantly remarking how, without Xander saving the world none of the events we are debating could have been. Granted that doesn't mean Anya has to repeatedly thank him for even having the opportunity to be jilted at the altar - but I wasn't expecting things to be taken quite to that degree....

Quote:
You said " a guy who saves the world". Not "Xander", which reduces him to just that definition, as if all else is discounted. So, if anything, it was easy to get confused about it.

Yes I said 'guy' within the context of the world in the show. Not 'our' world....This world has, never to my knowledge, been saved by any single individual so I was surprised that that comparison came up.

Quote:
And while the things you listed all speak for his character, it's not those actions or relationships that matter in whether he's a catch (as in, great match) for Anya. It's his relationship with and actions toward Anya.

I'd actually suggest both matter. Character past and present aswell as actions towards one another. His actions towards Anya allways struck me as indifferent actually now I think about it. Especially leading up to them being an item, so to speak.

Quote:
And indicator could be his relationships with other romantic interests.

Of which a character is formulated (right or wrong) personality is gleaned from various sources not just the desired one of how he reacted to her.

Quote:
Judging by his relationship with Cordelia, I would NOT class Xander a great catch. Obviously, things were better with Anya, so they were more compatible, but I'll let everyone else be the judge of that. I'm merely talking factors, not results.

Well I wouldn't either but then Anya's no Cordy :P

As for Xander and Anya's compatability I never thought them compatible but not because Xander was in some way the lesser catch... More demon / human issues really.

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 6:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

No sorry about that I seemed to have erased a line from what I'd intended writing. No my point was that his act [Xander] of saving the world, was not an act of selfishness. Surely a plus on the character points no?

Why would saving the world have been selfish? I'm still confused. Saving the world is great, period. Selfishness in hero-motivation was never part of my argument.

The act of being heroic and/or saving the world has nothing to do with whether Xander (or anyone) is good relationship material.

Quote:

Quote:
Yes, I see battles and saving the world.. still not seeing the relationship connection. (I actually don't.)

Nothing to do with relationship connection. I am merely saying that Xander was good enough for Anya. He frequently displayed selfless acts (as the one previously stated) where in similar circumstances Anya did not.

But see, you're making that exact connection I'm arguing against.

Being "good enough for someone" has little to do with someone's status of heroism or bravery. It only has to do with how they treat that "someone".

Whether Xander was morally "good" or Anya was morally "bad" is irrelevant when it comes to whether they are good enough for each other because the only thing that matters there is mutual respect and compatibility.

Quote:

Quote:
You said " a guy who saves the world". Not "Xander", which reduces him to just that definition, as if all else is discounted. So, if anything, it was easy to get confused about it.

Yes I said 'guy' within the context of the world in the show. Not 'our' world....This world has, never to my knowledge, been saved by any single individual so I was surprised that that comparison came up.

You made heroism or bravery a factor, so did I. It doesn't have to be saving the world. Heroism, after all, does exist in real life.

Quote:

Quote:
And while the things you listed all speak for his character, it's not those actions or relationships that matter in whether he's a catch (as in, great match) for Anya. It's his relationship with and actions toward Anya.

I'd actually suggest both matter. Character past and present aswell as actions towards one another. His actions towards Anya allways struck me as indifferent actually now I think about it. Especially leading up to them being an item, so to speak.

But what, do you think, matters more?

His really awesome relationship with other people, or his actual relationship with Anya?

For example:

Heroic figher fighter A has a really great relationship with her/his colleagues and friends, helps little old ladies across the street, donates blood when she/he can, saves lives every week.

And also cheats on her/his spouse.

Do both factor equally into whether A is "good enough" for their spouse? Does any of the outside stuff actually factor into the quality of their relationship?

Quote:

Quote:
And indicator could be his relationships with other romantic interests.

Of which a character is formulated (right or wrong) personality is gleaned from various sources not just the desired one of how he reacted to her.

I'm not talking about the personality as a whole. I'm talking about specific questions of compatibility and relationship behavior.

Quote:

As for Xander and Anya's compatability I never thought them compatible but not because Xander was in some way the lesser catch... More demon / human issues really.

I'm not saying he was the "lesser" catch. It's not a competition between two people. I'm just saying his status as world-saving great pal doesn't automatically make him good relationship material.

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Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

To sum this up...Xander was a stupid assed motherfucker for what he did to Anya and she should have knifed his ass a few episodes later, but it turned out that she had more wisdom then Xander ever had and loved that idiot to the end. She ended up dying in the final conflict while that waste Xander got to live. See how unfair life is???

-River

P.S. You can tell what episode of BtVS I just watched.

One of my least liked story twists of all Buffydom. Xander continuously played the part of the coward, only occasionally risking life and limb to impress Buffy. And even then, it usually worked out miserably for Xander. I hated that, becasue I really want to like Xander, but his inabilty to figure out how he, a mortal, could best assist the Scoobies instead of blindgly acting all HE-Man and getting into MORE trouble was annoying. Oh, and then there's the Anya thing. IDIOT! Xander's pic is right next to that word in the dictionary for that lame ass stunt he pulled at the wedding.

I never did buy his excuse, and thought less of his character, and the show for it.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:24 AM

AgentRouka wrote

Quote:
Whether Xander was morally "good" or Anya was morally "bad" is irrelevant when it comes to whether they are good enough for each other because the only thing that matters there is mutual respect and compatibility.

Couldn't disagree more I'm afraid. To me it would seem you are suggesting that Xander and Anya have seperate personalitites when interacting with others.

I'm of the mind that in order to determine wether someone is compatible with you, to a certain extent you assess their worth, in part, by how you see them interact with those around them. Not 100% granted, but for initial consideration yes. Otherwise you are going in blind, and therefre setting yourself up for a fall.

But what do I know....

Quote:
You made heroism or bravery a factor, so did I. It doesn't have to be saving the world. Heroism, after all, does exist in real life.

Of course I agree. However I am drawing my point of view from the SHOW not the real world.

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But what, do you think, matters more?

His really awesome relationship with other people, or his actual relationship with Anya?

They both matter. That's my point.

Quote:
For example:

Heroic figher fighter A has a really great relationship with her/his colleagues and friends, helps little old ladies across the street, donates blood when she/he can, saves lives every week.

And also cheats on her/his spouse.

Do both factor equally into whether A is "good enough" for their spouse? Does any of the outside stuff actually factor into the quality of their relationship?

On the onset it would have been a factor. In terms of your argument however - clearly if he is cheating on his spouse he is rat bait. No question.

Quote:
I'm not talking about the personality as a whole. I'm talking about specific questions of compatibility and relationship behavior.

..and I'm saying you cannot remove the personality from your argument about compatibility. Without the personality you cannot establish a compatablity...

But you know what I think we're into semantics here and really we're not really moving on. I'm of the mind Xander was worthy of Anya and you're saying he was not. I don't think either of us are right or wrong, we've merely expressed our own points of view.

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I'm not saying he was the "lesser" catch. It's not a competition between two people. I'm just saying his status as world-saving great pal doesn't automatically make him good relationship material.

Neither am I. I merely used that point to establish that Xander was prepared to risk his life to save the world. Which goes someway to suggest that Xander believed the world was worth saving.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:38 AM

Coming back for two senences because I am pathetic.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I'm of the mind Xander was worthy of Anya and you're saying he was not. I don't think either of us are right or wrong, we've merely expressed our own points of view.

I am not saying he was UNworthy. It's not about worth.

I am saying that he was not automatically a catch for Anya, specifically, just because he's an all around great guy who thinks the world is worth saving.

Maybe an ideal catch for Anya would be another possessive, murdurous vengeance demon. Maybe Xander was. Who knows? Relationships are subjective, not objective, so morality doesn't play much of a role. Just how well the different takes on morality match up between two people.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:54 AM

AgentRouka wrote:

Quote:
I am saying that he was not automatically a catch for Anya, specifically, just because he's an all around great guy who thinks the world is worth saving.

I wasn't saying that either. Y'know what I've no idea why either of us are arguing anymore

Still you made me smile when I checked my email and it said I had another message from AGENTROUKA

Sorry to have left it so long - I sometimes have trouble accessing this site.

However this sums it up beautifully:

Quote:

Maybe an ideal catch for Anya would be another possessive, murdurous vengeance demon. Maybe Xander was. Who knows? Relationships are subjective, not objective, so morality doesn't play much of a role. Just how well the different takes on morality match up between two people.

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Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:59 AM