Tonight's Buffy gets four stars!! by Hjermsted

thanks for the link. tonight's buffy was pretty awesome. It was the first episode to really get me excited about this season. All the ones before it, excepting Selfless, have been pretty boring and disappointing. the new big bad looks scary. I loved it when not-really-Cassie's grin grew and like ate her whole body. that was wicked. and oh boy what's up with Spike.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:24 AM

I know, I was shocked by the ending. If this is the last season, they're really going out with a bang. The Big Bad, the Beast, really looks like the worst yet, I can't wait till this sunday's Angel when he rises up.

AND THEY KILLED JONATHON! I couldn't believe it. I kept expecting him to escape or something, but they killed him...

And Spike... eh, who am I kiding, I wasn't very surprised. They should have dusted him way back in season 4, maybe even 2. I guess the Beast took out his chip along with giving him back his soul.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bulbus:
AND THEY KILLED JONATHON! I couldn't believe it. I kept expecting him to escape or something, but they killed him...

Yeah! I couldn't believe it. I mean it ws Jonathon! And the episode was written by Espenson, who is really close friends with Danny Strong. I guess if Jonathon was destined to die, she wanted to write it...

Quote:
And Spike... eh, who am I kiding, I wasn't very surprised. They should have dusted him way back in season 4, maybe even 2. I guess the Beast took out his chip along with giving him back his soul.

Don't be silly. We've seen Spike hit humans and be in pain since he got his soul. And let's not forget, with the Morph-o-monster in town--a creature that can imulate not only a face, but a personality, and be in more than one place at te same time--can we really trust our eyes? Let's wait until next week before giving up on William entirely, m'kay?

Yeah, awsome episode.
________________

Not it. Me.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 5:07 AM

I don't know... Spike's been proven to be the new Big Bad's lackey before... And could the Big Bad sire the psychological vampire if it wasn't Spike? We'll have to find out, but you're right, we can't trust everything we see until the very end this season. Like I read that Jonathon's supposedly in the next episode, when the Scooby's kidnap Andrew... grrr... (residual anger there) and Jonathon. Probably though, Jon will be the Big Bad in disguise again. I'm still waiting for Angel. Comics Continuum has a great picture of the Beast in all his unglory and then a shot of a very bloody, beaten Angel

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 6:43 AM

WOW! This episode ranks up there with the best of 'em all (easily the best non-Whedon written episode). I love that this show can still delight and surprise.

However, I think the Willow/'Cassie' scenes would have been much more powerful had they been played with Tara instead (as originally intended). Can you imagine, after all of that "I miss you" talk and emotional stuff, having Tara ask Will to kill herself so they could be together!? Damn! What a shame Amber Benson's agents and Fox couldn't agree on a contract.

Buffy's conversations with the Dartmouth vamp were hilarious. Dawn took a hell of a beating (literally) and is toughening up nicely. Spike... I have no idea what's up with that bloke, though it was great the way he had no dialogue the entire episode yet spoke the loudest in the final segment.

Here's a question for you...

Is California really having TWO seperate apocalypses (one in L.A. and one in Sunnydale)? Or are the impending catastrophes on Angel and Buffy somehow the same event?

mattro

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 8:21 AM

The Beast, presumably the name of the Big Bad, as in Apocalypse, Revelations and all that. The Beast rises up out of the sea in Angel, since he's right on the coast and all. Angel Investigations tries to send him packing, and fail supposedly.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:36 AM

Big honkin' evil is a risin' in Sunnydale, and Big honkin' evil is comming for LA. Concidence? Apparently so! (Although I have a theory on that I'll post at a later date). Yep, the SoCal events are unrelated, according to an interview I read with an Angel scribe.

Also, I disagree that the Willow/Tara scenes from "Conversations" would have been better with Benson. Don't get me wrong. I love the actress and the character, and I have to rate the Will/Tara relationship as my second fav BTVS relationship of all time. That said, I think Willow's grief and longing were all the more palbable with her knowing that Tara was there, but not being able to see her, hear her, touch her... Powerful stuff. Very Ghost-esque. And the ending, where it turns out to be the Morph-o-monster... Well, let's just say, that as someone that literally grew up on horror movies, most don't scare me. But this is one of only a very very few episodes that genuinely creeped me out.

________________

Oh, not it. Me.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
WOW! This episode ranks up there with the best of 'em all (easily the best non-Whedon written episode).

Here's a question for you...

Is California really having TWO seperate apocalypses (one in L.A. and one in Sunnydale)? Or are the impending catastrophes on Angel and Buffy somehow the same event?

mattro

I'm hoping for one big happy conflagration.
I agree with you about the non-JW episode. This was deeply good, and scarier than most movies.
The forms on the couch, Cassie's grin (Ralph Steadman!).
Everybody dealt with their horrors pretty well, except of course Andrew (who was always my favorite of the trio). Talk about homo-erotic overtones...(that's another thread)
I've finally resigned myself to Bad Spike, though he could always suprise us.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:54 PM

BOBKNAPTOR

So here is my question about the episode:

Joyce... Was she morphy, and the monster attacking her was there to win Dawnie's trust?

Or was she really Joyce and the monster attacking her was a minion of the morph-o-monster?

Either option works... First one works to make Dawn mistrust Buffy, and we've found that for whatever reason, Joss & Co. like to split the team up before they bring them back together to fight the big bad (Yoko Factor, anyone?). Option 2 works if Buffy will be manipulated by morphy into hurting Dawn and Joyce somehow sees that and wants to warn her.

______________
Andrew: The boy is our last hope.
Warren: No, there is another.
Andrew: Really? Who's our last hope?

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
So here is my question about the episode:

Joyce... Was she morphy, and the monster attacking her was there to win Dawnie's trust?

Or was she really Joyce and the monster attacking her was a minion of the morph-o-monster?

Either option works... First one works to make Dawn mistrust Buffy, and we've found that for whatever reason, Joss & Co. like to split the team up before they bring them back together to fight the big bad (Yoko Factor, anyone?). Option 2 works if Buffy will be manipulated by morphy into hurting Dawn and Joyce somehow sees that and wants to warn her.

Maybe Morphy takes the form of Dawn, and Buffy has to guess which one is the real Dawn... Buffy gueses wrong.

________________

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:26 PM

I thought it was pretty obvious that 'Joyce' was actually Morphy.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 5:32 PM

I don't know. Joyce could have been the Beast... but I don't know. It's kinda an elaborate hoax then, having an evil demon there blocking her. For the Beast to have assumed that DAWN of all people, would cast the demon out to talk to her mother....

I think the ghost was Joyce, and the Beast just sent a minor demon to play interference. It's a maybe...

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002 8:50 PM

yeahbut....if Joyce knew this big thing was coming, and it's possible for her to communicate with the living, why would she appear to Dawn of all people? Why wouldn't she appear to her *real* daughter, so Buffy can actually better prepare to fight? Maybe she will, I dunno. Also, what she was saying to Dawn was in character for Morphy, the whole playing on insecurities bit. The Beast is messing with them hardcore, trying to drive them apart from each other and themselves. I'm totally unspoiled, so I have no idea if I'm right, but that's my official theory for now. I just don't think that was Joyce.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:57 AM

OK, I think this needs to be clarified:

THE BEAST - is the monster on Angel.

MORPHY - is the monster on Buffy.

MORPHY is not THE BEAST. Two seperate things.

________________

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:00 AM

I definately think that Morphy was playing with the forms of Joyce, Cassie and Warren, trying to set up something: getting Willow out of commission, making Dawn doubt Buffy, and getting Andrew to kill Johnathan (who I'm sure we haven't seen the last of).
I had a flash of Anya being visited as well by some form but her brushing off the evil saying, "Oh brother...I'm terribly busy. You go now."

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:15 AM

One thing I've always wondered about...

What do Buffy's neighbors think about all this?

I grew up in the 'burbs and there's no way my house could have gotten rocked, ruined and visited by questionable types over and over without the neighbors noticing.

I guess this question falls under the same heading as "where are the police in this town!?"

mattro

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:22 AM

To all the questions like that: police? neighbors? do all the paramedics know Buffy? etc. I chalk it up to the unspoken fact that everyone in SD knows something scary is about, they just hide and ignore and explain it away. This is a big theme on Buffy for me, that no one admits there's something terribly wrong, they just try to work around it, hoping it will go away!
So human of them...

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:07 AM

I like to call it "Sunnydale Denial Syndrome." It's the same reason Fred was attacked by a giant tenticale monster in front of prominant scientists, and it didn't make the front page.

________________

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:26 AM

Yes, yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 12:41 PM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
One thing I've always wondered about...
What do Buffy's neighbors think about all this?
I grew up in the 'burbs and there's no way my house could have gotten rocked, ruined and visited by questionable types over and over without the neighbors noticing.
I guess this question falls under the same heading as "where are the police in this town!?"

It's just a typical Liberal Town in California! OK, the previous Mayor was a bit more honest and dependable than most, but everything else is typical California.

Jeff
Who notes he only slightly exaggerates.

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Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
OK, I think this needs to be clarified:

THE BEAST - is the monster on Angel.

MORPHY - is the monster on Buffy.

you're right. I was getting confused on that. Didn't they also used to call Glory 'The Beast'? It's hard to keep all these apocalypse-y demons straight.

I've always wondered about the neighbors. They're probably a bunch of terrified crazy people who just stay huddled up inside their houses most of the time. Why do people even still live in Sunnydale?

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 9:19 AM

BOBKNAPTOR

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:
you're right. I was getting confused on that. Didn't they also used to call Glory 'The Beast'? It's hard to keep all these apocalypse-y demons straight.

This did sometimes call her The Beast. But she wasn't a demon. She was a hell-god.

______________
Glory: I'm a god.
Spike: The god of what, bad home perms?
Glory: Shut up! I command you to shut up!
Spike: Yeah, okay, sorry, but I just had no idea that gods were such prancing lightweights. Mark my words, the Slayer ... is going to kick your skanky, lopsided ass back to whatever place would take a cheap, whorish, fashion victim ex-god like you.

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Friday, November 15, 2002 9:53 AM

GTHING

Quote:
Originally posted by Bulbus:
Don't be silly. We've seen Spike hit humans and be in pain since he got his soul. And let's not forget, with the Morph-o-monster in town--a creature that can imulate not only a face, but a personality, and be in more than one place at te same time--can we really trust our eyes? Let's wait until next week before giving up on William entirely, m'kay?

Yeah, awsome episode.
________________

I think the Big Bad that apparently devours from beneath us has programmed Spike to be a bad boy again. Joyce's message to Dawn suggests to me that he/she/it will attempt to do the same thing to Buffy with some Hellmouth mojo. I also believe Morphy can exist in two places at once -- as both Warren and Cassie in this episode. Of course, Morphy and the Big Bad may be the same entity and becoming more powerful as it's taking sacrifices like Jonathan.

Definitely my favorite of this season's Buffy episodes.

Exerpt from My Genre Geek Resume:
~huge Odyssey 5 fan
~former Andromeda fan

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Friday, November 15, 2002 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GThing:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bulbus:

Hey! I posted that!

Quote:

I think the Big Bad that apparently devours from beneath us has programmed Spike to be a bad boy again. Joyce's message to Dawn suggests to me that he/she/it will attempt to do the same thing to Buffy with some Hellmouth mojo.

I see the possiblity in that. Morphy might have even thralled Andrew into killing Jonathon, but if Morphy can brainwash people, then why didn't he get Willow to kill herself?

________________

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Friday, November 15, 2002 12:30 PM

Quote:

I see the possiblity in that. Morphy might have even thralled Andrew into killing Jonathon, but if Morphy can brainwash people, then why didn't he get Willow to kill herself?

I don't think Morphy is brainwashing so much as manipulating. It did try to compell Willow to kill herself. I'm guessing Andrew's mind is a tad weaker than Will's.

mattro

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Monday, November 18, 2002 9:23 AM

KIKI

This is in response to HJERMSTED comments on the BTVS show...

I'm so glad it wasn't just me, but apparently not...(LOL) Ever since I saw both trailers 4 11/12's BTVS & 11/17's ANGEL, I was 4ever wondering the very same thing about whether there were 2 seperate apocalypes coming to California--BTVS's Sunnydale & ANGEL's L.A. What da hell huh? I mean, don't get me wrong, (in my opinion)last week's ep of BTVS was the best yet--2nd 2 the season's 1st ep that is. I was like, "WHOAAAA, finally an ep that has me off my chair & one that isn't boring like the rest since this season started" (hey, i'll admit I was losing interest big-time & wasn't going 2 watch anymore)

Now ANGEL on the other hand--Well, ANGEL never really disappoints us. My eyes are ALWAYS glued 2 the set & I look 4ward 2 being taken away 4 that hr!!

Hey, I've got a question--Remember when THE BEAST told Angel, "Do you really think he's safe w/her?" or something like that? Well, do u think maybe his purpose of being there has something 2 do w/Connor or even Cordelia??? I wonder.

4 sure I thought Angel was threw when THE BEAST stabbed him in his throat & lost so much blood...And my,how he recovered so quickly after that--just in time 4 him 2 see his son doing the horizontal hula w/Cordy??? (what a flippin' shocker there

! And u saw the

look on his face?) I mean, I knew that the kid really, really needed 2 get laid, but w/CORDELIA???? Damn, Damn, Damn u Joss--HOW COULD YOU DO THAT??? I was expecting something like, lata on maybe Connor would turn out 2 be her stalker & forces himself on her when rejected again--but not have Cordy volunteer herself 2 him cuz it's DOOMS DAY??? 4 all that, she should have just got it on w/Angel after saying, "I love you Angel", how many times??? It wouldn't have even mattered if Angel turned N2 Angelous then huh???

I mean, who knows what would've REALLY happened afterwards anyway? Even after seeing the ep, I'm still recovering from what I saw!! I'm certain many of u on here feel the same. Cool feedback appreciated...

Kiki, BizzGal@aol.com

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:06 AM