Firefly Music Videos - Download Now by Succatash

All the links should be working now...

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Friday, April 18, 2003 12:45 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
Those were pretty awesome... especially the River one.

Yes, the River video is amazing -- the clips work perfectly with the music and lyrics!

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Friday, April 18, 2003 2:58 PM

Succotash, I'm going to request that two of my vids that you have on your domain (Tailspin and Girl with a Gun) be taken down, as much for my protection as for your own. As I was not contacted and asked for permission about hosting either of these vids, I would strongly suggest that you email Kelly and ask her if she wants her vid mirrored if you haven't already.

Can I do anything to enforce these requests? No, not at all. But I'm going to explain why I'm making them. I understand that you likely feel you have "solved" what you consider a pointless squabble by putting credits on the site, which I appreciate, but the issue of credit is only one part of the equation.

The fact is, the issue of copyright is *not* pointless, and has some important ramifications for vids. Something being available for free on the Internet does NOT make it public domain. Vidders use the intellectual property of others (video footage and music) to form new, unique creative output. Technically, this is indeed a current violation of copyright laws, although it is not done to infringe or make profit. Making vids at all, let alone sharing them online, is a legal risk that vidders take in order to enjoy vidding and sometimes to share vids with the community. When a vidder hosts a vid on her own domain, she is taking a legal risk. When *you mirror her vid on your domain*, you are taking a legal risk as well.

That said, a vid *is* unique creative output, much like fanfiction. A vid can take hundreds upon hundreds of hours to create, it can tell its own story, it can inspire emotions in others. The vidder therefore has traditionally in fandom been accorded the right to determine *where* the vid is distributed and the right to accept credit for her own work -- or, if she wishes to refuse it, to make it anonymous. She should be given choices about both distribution and credit. It's a simple process: you want to place a vid on your website that you didn't make (which means that you're willing to accept the risk of having your website shut down, receiving a C&D letter, etc.), you ask the vidder. If she says yes, you ask how she wants to be credited. If she says no, you don't do it, because it's considered her right to refuse. There are many, many reasons why a vidder may say no to mirroring, and most of them have nothing to do with being arbitrarily mean. Quite the contrary, a vidder may also be very adamant about not having anyone else take the fall if Fox or a record label sends out C&Ds, she may want to keep her vids in one place to control distribution because she plans on recutting them, she may simply want to know how much traffic they get or control access.

If you don't know who the vid is by or can't find contact information for the vidder? In both cases, the burden is on you, the person wishing to distribute the vid. It's not the vidder's responsibility to keep vidder and contact information attached to the vid when it gets distributed without her permission. In fact, given the shaky legal ground of vidding, some vidders PURPOSELY do not place explicit author info in their actual vid files. But when you go beyond saying to your friend, "Hey, here's this interesting file!" when you get into distributing to tens or hundreds of other people via your website, you owe it to the vidder to track her down and get her permission or not to use the file at all.

So what's a webmaster to do when there's no info? In this case, ask. Ask, ask, ask. You're *in* a fan forum. It took a very, very short time for someone who knew of me to pass by this forum when Maniac had my vid up uncredited -- if he had posted a message saying "Does anyone know who authored a vid to song X about River?" I'm sure that he would have gotten a response, because clearly several people who frequent this forum knew who the author was. I *posted* in this forum and you then placed my vid on your domain without my permission, in a situation where contacting me and asking would have obviously been quite easy. I understand that some of these issues just don't spring to mind, especially with vids, but they are important to vidders, to legal departments, and to many vid-watchers. LJC and I are talking about them not to be obnoxious or mean, but because they *are* important.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 5:03 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Unfortunately Nia, when you put together something with stolen copyrighted materials, you give up any right to ask people what they can and cannot do with it. Everyone touching it is liable, except Joss and Mutant Enemy and Fox, and whoever wrote the song. Did you bother to ask them? I don't think so.

The "tradition" you speak of, does not apply to your vids or this situation. If someone creates something beautiful and original (such as writing a fanfic) they have the right of the tradition you spoke of, but honor among thieves is very shaky ground.

Once again, let me restate it, because you have probably forgotten it by now...anything you may ask people to do with (or not do with) those vids is pointless because the materials you made them with were stolen.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 5:28 PM

I'm not going to even debate songvids versus fanfic in terms of merit -- obviously *you* liked the vid enough to put it up on your site.

And in terms of what is, yes, content theft, I can go to the ISP of anyone mirroring my vid without consent and deal with it that way. I have chosen not to do this straightaway but rather to explain myself and give Succatash a chance to respond because I *do* believe in fan courtesy.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 5:34 PM

Nia wrote:
Succotash, I'm going to request that two of my vids that you have on your domain (Tailspin and Girl with a Gun) be taken down, as much for my protection as for your own.

No one can get in trouble for posting a fan-made Firefly music video. Spare me the bullshit. This is about your ego, and mine. Also, Maniac's and LJC's.

That said, why don't you take your self-important video-making ass over to my survey?

http://www.strangefinger.com/firefly

Browncoats can now vote whether or not I should remove the files.

On a side note, I will happily remove the name "Nia" from StrangeFinger.com. I wouldn't want "Nia" to get into trouble, though I don't see how she could.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 5:43 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Quote:
Originally posted by Nia:
I'm not going to even debate songvids versus fanfic in terms of merit -- obviously *you* liked the vid enough to put it up on your site.

And in terms of what is, yes, content theft, I can go to the ISP of anyone mirroring my vid without consent and deal with it that way. I have chosen not to do this straightaway but rather to explain myself and give Succatash a chance to respond because I *do* believe in fan courtesy.

I notice that you didn't resond to a single thing I wrote above, Nia. Are you dense enough to think I was debating video versus fanfic? No, I was not. I was debating original work versus stolen. Pay attention. Except on the off chance that all you can do is change the subject

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

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Friday, April 18, 2003 6:19 PM

I've just been surfing all of the message boards here regarding the fan-made Firefly songvids.

Ah, I see now. All of us Browncoats need to stick together, because the wishes of the people who actually put the work into the vids doesn't mean a darned thing. Because they didn't create the show we all love.

The prospect of lawyers getting involved means nothing, because it's too important for people like Maniac and Succotash to be able to see and pass around anything they darned well please... honor among thieves doesn't mean much, and obviously comparing the entire Firefly fan community to thieves doesn't contradict the concept of Browncoats standing together.

It's all clear now.

For reference on why unauthorized redistribution of fannish songvids is a bad thing, please check out the following link. You know, if you'd rather be a Browncoat than a thief.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/elke_tanzer/148366.html

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Friday, April 18, 2003 6:52 PM

KAYTHRYN

Quote:
Posted by elketanzer:
All of us Browncoats need to stick together...

Don't fret. We do stick together. Got to have some disagreements and arguments other wise what would we be? Just a bunch of people sitting around nodding in agreement toward everyone else no matter what was said? We’re not like that.

We've all got our opinions, and we all like to voice them. Hey, even our sweet Kaylee got made at her Captain, but they made up in the end didn't they? She even got a dress. I say let them argue-- maybe someone will get a layered cake from this little quarrel.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Friday, April 18, 2003 7:25 PM

Kaythryn, you are kind and gentle and wise. I could learn a lot from you.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 7:34 PM

PHILOMEL

Ummm ... I've been reading this, and I have to say, I'm a bit--well, more than a bit--shocked.

I haven't followed all the threads around this--sounds like this is being discussed at some length elsewhere--but I have read this thread, and to me it seems simple enough.

Authors of fan work--fic, vids, art--still have some rights, even if they are only accorded those rights from the other fans that appreciate their work and their efforts. I mean, I love reading fic, watching the vids, scrolling through the cool artwork. I therefore give some deference to the creators of that work--who let me read/view it for free, and because they just want to share. I am not so spoiled as to think I am entitled to them sharing it with me.

This includes when someone puts something up on his/her site and the author/artist asks politely for them to please take it down--for whatever reason--I assume that this is respected. I assume that when I download something from a site, that the author is ok with that. Sure, it can't be enforced, but it seems--well, wrong--to know I've taken something when the author who's work I'm enjoying is adamantly against that distribution.

I mean, misunderstandings happen, and even in cases where an author gave permission to the archivist and later changed his/her mind--the same principle should still apply. And, honestly, most fandoms I think work on this premise, which is why people bother distributing their fanworks on the net--or else why wouldn't they just distribute it privately, or go play in another fandom that treated them better? For the archivist to simply say they didn't care--well, I had always just assumed basic rules of courtesy still applied between ourselves--especially in this fandom, where our clarion cry has been how badly we've been screwed by the Powers That Be.

Either that, or I am completely deluded.

Phil.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 7:40 PM

Thank you, Phil. That's exactly the point.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 7:49 PM

My website just busted - too much traffic.

A ton of people must have downloaded those files.

Gosh. I'll try to get it fixed.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 8:02 PM

As glad as I would be to be such a popular gal, which would make me kinda like Jesus, it could also be your website is down because of, you know, the complaints people have been sending to your ISP for violating their Terms of Service. That's not a bandwidth notice there, I've seen those. That's an empty directory.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 9:23 PM

I never thought I would see the day when a Browncoat blows the whistle on another Browncoat for posting Pro-Firefly material.

Shame on you, Nia! Shame on all of you!

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Friday, April 18, 2003 9:29 PM

Oh, yes, Succatash. Get all confrontational after refusing the simple requests of the creative fan concerning her own work. And then get holier-than-thou when you violate the TOS of your own service provider and *anyone* calls 'em on it. Yes, it could have been anyone. A lot of people are aware of your unacceptable behavior at this point.

We're all True Fans, and Browncoats Must Stick Together, but only if it strokes your ego.

Gimme a break, pal.

How did such a great show attract such an inconsiderate irrational fan?

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Friday, April 18, 2003 9:59 PM

The fact remains that a Browncoat was shut down by other Browncoats for posting Pro-Firefly material.

Unbelievable. Hypocritical. And very damaging to the cause of gathering more Firefly viewers.

SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!

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Friday, April 18, 2003 10:16 PM

SILVIAKUNDERA

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Shame on you, Nia! Shame on all of you!

No, shame on YOU.

Do you care so little about the Firefly fandom and its reputation? Do you honestly want the word online to be that it's risky to produce Firefly fan material, because it just might be appropriated and all your hard work disregarded and thrown in your face?

Because word travels fast on the net, and already people are expressing worry about sharing with Firefly fans the things they produce. I know that I personally no longer feel comfortable sharing any Firefly vids that I may make. I don't know at this point if I'll ever post any online, or write any Firefly fanfiction.

And that's so sad, because I just discovered the show in the last two weeks and I fell absolutely in love with it. It's sad that these actions have left such a bad taste in my mouth and spoiled what had been, up until now, such a positive experience for me.

If you alienate the people who go about creating these things you love... you won't have any more. It's not terribly complicated logic.

I know that a couple insensitive people do not represent the ethnics and sense of community held by an entire fandom, but all it takes is a few rotten apples to ruin the fun for EVERYBODY.

And the more that people sit on the sidelines and refuse to take a stand against such horrible treatment of fellow fans, the more this problem will grow.

You want a happy community? It's not going to happen by ignoring the problem. It's going to happen by refusing to let people get away with this sort of behavior.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 10:19 PM

No, Succatash, the FACT remains that you, a Browncoat, disrespected another Browncoat who actually spent time working on a fannish creation rather than just grabbing it as if it were your own.

The FACT is that you disregarded rational requests to behave yourself like a civilized human being, to ask before taking something, and to give it back when asked.

The FACT is that you have shown no clue whatsoever and no understanding of any single issue involved in this entire mess, and you've been rude about it to boot.

Firefly doesn't deserve fans like you.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 10:49 PM

Posted by elketanzer:
"Firefly doesn't deserve fans like you."

I have given my soul to this community, you

asshole. I want the show back on the air, wake the

up and get over yourself.

I do not deserve a comment like that, especially after my site was shut down by Browncoats for posting pro-Firefly material.

I can't belive the impossiblity of this situation.

I stand behind my actions and I am in complete and utter shock by the reaction I am receiving.

Does free-ware editing software and an mp3 ripper turn people into artists, after they've stolen copryrighted material?

It's not about the artist, IT'S ABOUT THE SHOW!

Do not silence the Browncoats! We will fly again!

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Friday, April 18, 2003 10:58 PM

> Does free-ware editing software and an mp3 ripper turn people into artists

Yes, just as writing fanfiction turns people into writers. Amateur writers, amateur artists, yes, but writers and artists nonetheless.

I'm sorry you don't comprehend the mistaken assumptions that led to your actions, and the reactions to your actions. I personally believe that you are too caught up in trying to save your favorite cancelled show to think about the repercussions of your actions and the effect they have had and will continue to have on the Firefly fandom.

Believe me, shows have been cancelled before. There have been other campaigns to save shows, and other campaigns to draw more viewers to shows in danger of cancellation.

None of those situations make it OK for you to ignore the requests of someone who loves the show as much or more than you, and who spent time creating a fannish work.

I recognize that you are committed to your favorite show, to the point of pouring heart and soul into being its fan. But that does not excuse your behavior.

Why would any writer, artist, or vidder ever want to show you any work they spent time creating? You cannot be trusted to enjoy it without using it for your own purposes, their own wishes in the matter be damned.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 11:03 PM

elketanzer wrote:
grabbing it as if it were your own.

Are you accusing me of grabbing the video and claiming it as my own? Are you totally insane?

If I had claimed it as my own, I wouldn't have put "Thanks to Nia for her great work" under the link.

Whatever happened to promoting the show and getting people involved? You stupid anal bastards are ruining things with your Beverly Hills Secret Rules Club bullshit.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 11:08 PM

You were doing whatever you wanted with the vids, not listening to the creator. That means you were acting like you owned the vids.

Thanking someone for their car after you've driven off in it is not gratitude.

Promoting the show and getting people involved does not mean doing whatever you please with other people's fannish work without their permission.

I don't live in Beverly Hills, I never have, and lessons in simple human civility of "ask before you take" and "give it back if it's not yours and the owner asks you for it" are not secrets.

Elke

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Friday, April 18, 2003 11:16 PM

Posted by ELKETANZER
"You were doing whatever you wanted with the vids, not listening to the creator. That means you were acting like you owned the vids."

All I did wast post them and give credit to Nia, who made them. So what was she doing? Calling Fox and getting permission? What about the band that supplied the soundtrack? It sounds like Nia stole the footage and did whatever she wanted to with them. She acted like she owns the vids!

Spare me your bullshit.

As a member of this Firefly community, I am pro-actively supporting and promoting the show. And I will continue to do so.

I encourage others to protest the betrayal witnessed on this thread. Serenity will fly again.

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Friday, April 18, 2003 11:34 PM

Your attitude is exactly why rational vidders, artists and fanfiction writers will likely never post their songvids in this fandom again anywhere where the public (and you) can see them.

Do you see how that does the Firefly fandom a disservice?

*deep breath*

How long have you been active in fandom? Because it sure sounds like this is all new to you. Let me try to explain more clearly what I'm talking about...

Fanfiction writers, artists and vidders walk a fine line by posting their work on the Internet. Their activities only survive because the copyright and trademark owners are not directly confronted by the infringements.

If the owner of a trademark (either TV show, movie, or music) does not defend their trademark, they can lose it. Defending a trademark means that the owner must actively prosecute anyone who infringes on it, otherwise they are allowing it to become a public property, and are yielding their trademarks, something modern megacorps never want to do.

Just yesterday a well-meaning fan presented a CD of songvids to Nate Fillion, against the expressly stated wishes of at least one of the vidders whose work was on the CD. The fan also intended to give the CD to Joss Whedon, but was stopped in time. This fan apparently never read the requests at the vidders' own websites, though some of the URLs were right in some of the vids. Both the fan and the community where the CDs were suggested and encouraged have since had all of the pertinent issues explained to them, and much hurt feelings were felt all around, both by the well meaning fan and the vidders.

Vidders can only keep from being noticed by lawyers if they can trust other fans to heed their wishes regarding distribution of their songvids.

Otherwise, the vidders risk losing their websites and worse. Cease and Desist orders are darned scary business.

I'm sure you understand how that feels now, even though your site's TOS action doesn't directly involve lawyers at this point.

Please understand that the fan community enjoys the work of many creative fans, who as individuals shoulder a lot of the risk of attracting lawyer-attention. In exchange, the fannish consumers are expected to behave like rational adults, and to understand the issues involved.

If you want to evangelize about your favorite show, that's great, but either do it using your own work, or the work of other fans *who have given you permission* to use theirs.

Do not assume that because a fan has created something and shared it with you that you can do anything you want with it, or the fandom as a whole, the entire community, is harmed.

More information about copyrights and trademarks in regard to fannish vidding, fanfiction and artwork is available... all anyone had to do was talk with any one of the fannish vidders, who were well aware of these issues before creating their vids.

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:13 AM

Posted by Elketanzer:
If you want to evangelize about your favorite show, that's great, but either do it using your own work, or the work of other fans *who have given you permission* to use theirs.

Elk, my man! It is not "theirs" in the first place, don't you get it?

Are you mentally challenged, my good man? You say above to "use your own work.' This part about "giving permission" is ridiculous, don't you see? It is NOT their material to give away.

Elk: "Use your own material or get permission from the people who stole it"

You don't make sense at all.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:14 AM

Oh, I didn't "blow the whistle" on you for posting pro-Firefly material. I blew the whistle on you for posting a piece of art (a term I use as loosely and modestly as I can here, but use with full knowledge of its implications nonetheless) that was not your own without the artist's permission.

That's it. Underlying this is a whole set of issues pertaining to fandom, vidding, etc., but that's the core of what you did: took someone else's work and hung it up in your gallery without their permission. Didn't matter that my name was attached, didn't matter that you had good intentions; I had made my position about *asking before posting* (not to mention implying my fairly wary stance on mirroring, which I would have explaine further had you inquired) very clear not many hours earlier, right in your line of sight.

I told you what you were doing, I warned you what I could do, and you chose not only not to believe that I could or would but also to continue to insult me and other people who have tried with more patience and coherence than I possess to explain things to you. I feel no shame, only pride that so many people, many of whom don't know me from Eve, spoke out about this.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:16 AM

Nia, you should be ashamed. Thousands of people won't learn about Firefly because of you.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:21 AM

How you ever got the impression I was male or female is beyond me.

I'm sorry that you cannot understand what I've been talking to you about all night on these boards.

Let me try to sum this up in tiny little words for you:

If you like watching songvids, don't do anything with them without the vidder's permission. Otherwise all of the vidders will stop making songvids, or stop sharing them where the public can see them. Either way, the Firefly fan community cannot enjoy the songvids. These same common courtesy issues are true for drawings and photomanipulations and fanfiction.

I'm sorry for using some three-syllable words in there; I couldn't think of any simpler way to put it.

How many different ways do I have to explain this before you understand me? Or are you just going to insult my intelligence, my sex life, or my weight again? You're the one that brought Jesus into this, and that whole "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" thing also seems to be beyond your comprehension.

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:25 AM

You really don't make any sense. Nia's the one who made the vid in the first place.

Have you made any songvids? No? Then it's your own fault that you don't have any songvids of your own to share.

And currently? I feel pretty safe in saying that hundreds of Firefly fans are currently aware of your inconsiderate behavior, and are ashamed for their fandom.

And before you insult me for being "friends" with Nia, let me say that I met her online via email on *Thursday*, which was about a day and a half ago.

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:33 AM

"If you like watching songvids, don't do anything with them without the vidder's permission."

I like watching Firefly. It's a show created by Joss Whedon. Fox produced it, and they shouldn't have cancelled it.

The fat chicks waving twinkies don't interest me. I want Firefly back on the air.

Fans who had fun with the footage had fun expressing themselves. Bottom line. No one will get into trouble, unless the fans try to control the distribution of their bootlegged material.

We want more Firefly fans. We want a lot more of them. We are cool people and we don't steal and act like hypocrites, do we? No, we share. We give.

You can ignore all the fat girls waving Twinkies.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:40 AM

> No one will get into trouble

Have you read a single post that I have made here YOU ARE WRONG. There is the potential for all sorts of legal action, both by the copyright/trademark holders of Firefly and of the music used in the vids. Have you ever heard of the RIAA? Their website is http://www.riaa.org/ and they're really energetic and nasty when it comes to cracking down on the use of music, even if FOX and the rest of the Firefly powers that be might be willing to overlook things.

Just because someone else enjoys the same show as you does not mean that you understand their motivations in creating songvids or any other form of fan art.

And you are still sidestepping the issue of asking for something a fan created which you want to use to promote your show.

Meanwhile, you're content to insult people and call them names. I've seldom seen such irrationality and immaturity.

Are you this inconsiderate in real life, or only on the Internet?

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:47 AM

"Just because someone else enjoys the same show as you does not mean that you understand their motivations in creating songvids or any other form of fan art."

Then this artist should not have posted anonymous artwork for all the web to share. Nia provided no hint of her motives, she just offered the video to download. Others began sharing it, because they love Firefly.

The only problem occurs when the fan tries to control the distribution of the stolen material. Then a little thing called cash starts to matter to people in suits with badges.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:02 AM

"I never thought I would see the day when a Browncoat blows the whistle on another Browncoat for posting Pro-Firefly material.

Shame on you, Nia! Shame on all of you!"

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:02 AM

You have managed to completely miss every point I have made, and every point which other rational people have made.

I am amazed by your continued ignorance of both facts and common courtesy.

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:04 AM

You have successfully denied me a way to increase the number of Firefly fans.

Way to go, all you fat chicks with Twinkies.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:06 AM

You yourself have made it clear to every vidder in fandom what will happen if they make their vids publically available. What is unclear about that?

And lay off the insults, Succatash. I've noticed that every single posting interface on this site says "While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others." Can you read?

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:08 AM

ELLABELL

Quote:
Then this artist should not have posted anonymous artwork for all the web to share. Nia provided no hint of her motives, she just offered the video to download. Others began sharing it, because they love Firefly.

Why the heck not? An artist doesn't and shouldn't have to give you a handout on her motivations and you don't even have to agree with her motivations or guess at them, but you do have to accept that your motivations may not be everybody's motivations. Your motivations are to expose Firefly to as many people as possible, it seems. You're wrong to assume that that is the motivation behind a vid or fanfic. This doesn't mean that Nia doesn't love Firefly, only that she may have had some other artistic intent in creating the vid.

The artwork wasn't "anonymous", it was on her website with contact info. The fact that people failed to transmit that with the file (which they shouldn't have been passing onto other domains in the first place) amounts to deleting the header on a piece of fanfic, it doesn't make it anonymous.

I'm not sure what your views on "heavier girls" have to do with anything, but if you're having trouble attracting them you might try gaining some thought and perspective and losing the word "girls." Unless of course real "women" aren't your thing.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:15 AM

Are you trying to trick me? Well, it won't work.

By the way, I am really fat. I weight at least 375 lbs.

That's why it's okay for me to make fun of how fat you are.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:21 AM

It's always all about you, isn't it, Succatash.

Again, I don't see what anyone's weight or sex lives has to do with the discussion or issues at hand.

Thanks very much for chiming in here, Ellabell. It's nice to see the voice of reason coming in from another angle.

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 2:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Nia, you should be ashamed. Thousandes of people won't learn about Firefly because of you.

YOU should be ashamed, at your lack of respect for other Firefly fans.

If you truly appreciated the hard work of the vidders, you would have asked their permission. It's one of the first things people learn in kindergarten - ask before you take something.

Your ISP probably has a TOS statement about not posting copyrighted material for download (mp3s, etc). You should read over the TOS that you agreed to when you started your website. If it was reported to your ISP that you had such material on your site, they would remove it.

Do you grasp the concept that this is something that vidders face daily? When we put our music videos up on the internet to share with fans, we do so at a risk to ourselves and our websites. Unless a vidder is lucky enough to own their own server, their ISP can choose to remove their vids at any time with no warning, whether a C&D letter is received from the copyright holder or not.

Legality aside, I think it's unethical, what you did. Not to mention rude. However, given the rest of your behavior that I've seen in this thread, it doesn't come as a big surprise.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 2:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Unfortunately Nia, when you put together something with stolen copyrighted materials, you give up any right to ask people what they can and cannot do with it.
The "tradition" you speak of, does not apply to your vids or this situation.

Sorry, but that's asinine - to say that common courtesy isn't necessary because vidders "stole" their material. I haven't read anything so ridiculous in my life. Fanfiction is more original? Please. Recycled plots and stolen characters aren't any more protected than vidding when it comes to copyright law and C&D letters. Why do you think fanfiction.net has removed certain authors from their site? Why have Anne Rice ff writers been forced underground?

The more I read on this issue from people who obviously don't appreciate the feelings of the vidders involved, the happier I am that I have taken my vids down. From now on I will share them only with a few close people who feel the same way that I do.

When a vidder takes the risk of putting a video up on the internet, they do so with the hope that the fans who download and share the video take some responsibility for helping protect them - by not handing the video out to people associated with the shows, by not advertising the videos in places where it might be at increased risk of being noticed by those people.

It comes down to a basic sense of respect for a fellow fan. I'm seeing a sad lack of it from this community.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Philomel:
I mean, misunderstandings happen, and even in cases where an author gave permission to the archivist and later changed his/her mind--the same principle should still apply. And, honestly, most fandoms I think work on this premise, which is why people bother distributing their fanworks on the net--or else why wouldn't they just distribute it privately, or go play in another fandom that treated them better? For the archivist to simply say they didn't care--well, I had always just assumed basic rules of courtesy still applied between ourselves--especially in this fandom, where our clarion cry has been how badly we've been screwed by the Powers That Be.

Phil this was a very mature, well thought out post. I agree with everything that you said. For any many years, vidders just gave copies of their vids to a few friends, showed them at conventions, etc. The audience was limited. Vids and vidding have been around since the first fan bought two VCRs and dubbed a song to clips from their favorite shows - a couple of decades or more.

The internet and digital vidding programs gave us the opportunity to share those vids with an even wider audience (although the compression quality is not nearly as good as watching nice, clear, big footage on your TV from a VHS vid). Vidders so far have been extremely cautious in sharing their vids online - not only because they could lose their websites at any time, if their ISPs find out, but also because there is always a risk of someone disrespecting their wishes regarding the distribution of their work.

I'm stunned that there are Browncoats who, on the one hand say that FF fans are a big happy family and everyone sticks together, but two minutes later turn on their fellow fans, call them names, and show no consideration for their feelings and wishes.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SilviaKundera:
Because word travels fast on the net, and already people are expressing worry about sharing with Firefly fans the things they produce. I know that I personally no longer feel comfortable sharing any Firefly vids that I may make. I don't know at this point if I'll ever post any online, or write any Firefly fanfiction.
If you alienate the people who go about creating these things you love... you won't have any more. It's not terribly complicated logic.

I know, silvia, that we talked about this last night. I have a new Firefly vid sitting on my hard drive, a Mal-centric vid, and I'm not planning to post it. I know that youhave one in the works and that Sheila has finished a new vid, and neither of you are very anxious to post them now.

This kind of thing happens all the time with fanfiction, but I thought vids might be not subject to it because of the bandwidth issues, for one thing. Sites can get knocked offline pretty quickly for using up their monthly bandwidth in an hour or less.

Maybe in the future I'll put the new vid out for wider distribution, but right now I've lost my sense of trust that I used to have for some of the people I was sharing with. To know that my feelings would not be respected doesn't make me feel very much like sharing.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:20 AM

HOPE

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
You have successfully denied me a way to increase the number of Firefly fans.

No, you have successfully discouraged new fans from participating in the fandom, since it's evident fannish works will not be respected or protected by you. Give me one good reason why I should leave my current fandom (where I have a reasonable expectation that other fans will not take it upon themselves to appropriate my work,) to come to this one, where at least one fan feels that sort of behavior is not only fair, but right.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:23 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I have a great idea to settle this whole thing.

How about if just I contact Joss Whedon, Fox and/or Mutant Enemy, and ask THEM, if it would be alright to use THEIR copyrighted material?

I would be happy to tell them who appropriated their video footage, without their permission, and decided to cut it up and claim the right to distribute it as their own.

I am serious now people. I need just one more high-minded person giving Succatash crap for that project to take off.

So please, keep it up if you want to see Nia in jail.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:37 AM