FIREFLY AND SERENITY GUERILLA MARKETING

Viral Newspaper Ads

POSTED BY: 11THHOUR
UPDATED: Sunday, June 10, 2007 16:23
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Saturday, September 9, 2006 10:08 AM

11THHOUR


"Viral newspaper ads" is a guerilla marketing idea which combines a celebration of Serenity with promotion of the movie and Universal, with the fans themselves.

The idea is place a flurry of "viral" newspaper ads in newspapers, big and small, all across the country to mark September 30th, Serenity 'Versary. The thing that will make the difference to continuing the 'Verse is to increase our audience by recruiting new FF/S fans out there in the greater world. We need to reach out to people who aren't necessarily Sci-Fi fans or travel the same online roads that we do. The great thing about Firefly and Serenity is that someone doesn't have to be a Sci-Fi to enjoy them enormously. We need to tap the greater potential audience out there.

One ad in a newspaper could be missed... but if we could spread small ads throughout newspapers, then people would begin to notice them. Big ads are also expensive, but an alternative could be to create eye-catching, cool small newspaper ads sprinkled throughout the paper. These are much less expensive to place, and can be set up to be sponsored by fans on a per ad basis.

Also, people sometimes only read one section of the newspaper... so we can make ads which match different sections of the newspaper. Ads that are designed to work in the Classified section, Entertainment, Home section, Sports, etc. They would all be highly visual, but have copy that plays off the featured section. For example, in the Classified section we could have an ad for renting a shuttle... with a blurb about it being used for a short while by a "bonafied Companion", and describe it in a way that gives a flavor of FF/S. The ad's contact would be of course Capt. Malcolm Reynolds. A Classified ad could be for a Mercenary and a take-off on the scene in Out of Gas.

Ads with a high "WTF?" factor will get people curious. But this "WTF?" factor has to be geared to reaching folks who aren't necessarily Sci-Fi fans. These ads will not be ads in the traditional sense. Rather they are "mock" ads sharing the same areas as the regular newspaper ads, but doing so in an off the wall, unique way... almost like alternative universe ads sharing the same space! The ads are either addressing matters that only exist in the Firefly/Serenity world, or they're just flat out thank you/congratulation ads singing the praises of Universal... and you gotta think that a movie studio will appreciate some free and shiny publicity from the fans!

Just wanted to toss a few preliminary ideas out to give everyone an sense of the direction I was thinking for the viral newspaper ads. These are first tries, nothing set in stone yet, but it gets the ball rolling... (Yeah, used more than one cliché there, but at least I didn't mention running something up a flagpole and the saluting thing... heh...)

Ideas for Classified ads:

______________________________________________

• STANDARD SHORT RANGE SPACE SHUTTLE FOR RENT •

Space worthy • Not overly smallish • Will break atmo from wide orbit • Has a few miles on it.

Get you where you need to go, bring you back home again.

Inquiries to:  Malcolm Reynolds, Capt. of Serenity

Cortex link:  www.fireflyfans.net

______________________________________________

GOT GOODS YOU NEED MOVED?

Planet to planet transport -- low profile.

We ain't too particular about legalities.

Show us the coin. We'll get the job done.

NO FEDS.

Inquiries to:  M. Reynolds, Capt. of Serenity

Cortex link:  www.fireflyfans.net

______________________________________________


The Personal ads can also be a rich field to explore:


______________________________________________

• 6'4" Muscular SWM Seeks Willin' Woman •

"Hero of Canton", Merc for hire, Good tracker
Once hit a guy in the neck at five hundred yards with a bent scope.
Has own bunk on Firefly class spaceship.
Lookin' for a good grapple • no strings

Jayne (I ain't a girl) Cobb

Cortex link: www.fireflyfans.net

______________________________________________

Stella

Keep the iPod, the X-Box, and my Halo game.
But I gotta get my Firefly and Serenity DVDs back 
NOW.

Going through serious withdrawls here.

Reach me at: www.fireflyfans.net

ID: GottaHaveSerenity

______________________________________________


Some ads can be the fun, cryptic and curiosity producing ones (like the examples above), and others can be straight out "thank you ads" to Universal and "Happy Serenity 'Versary!" wishes. Below are VERY quick ideas, just to kick off brainstorming:


______________________________________________

UNIVERSAL STUDIOS

Will still be the coolest movie studio
500 years in the future

Thanks for
SERENITY

The Browncoats

______________________________________________

Happy Serenity 'Versary to
UNIVERSAL STUDIOS!


Serenity got us flyin' again

(and Serenity's Nebula and Hugo Award wins
are mighty shiny too.)

______________________________________________

It's great to reaffirm with Universal the acclaim that Serenity continues to receive. PLUS new folk reading the ad could be more motivated to check out Serenity when they see the shiny awards it has won.

We can place the ads in many papers across the country, local papers and big city type newspapers. Browncoats in different cities can "sponsor" placing ads in their local and city newspapers. We can claim all kinds of patches of "real estate" throughout newspapers, throughout the country, come September 30th. It's a lot of fun for us, gets Serenity and Universal a bunch of promotion, and can spark a lot of interest in the 'Verse.

This plan will need us to get some ready-to-go ads prepared. We can place "text only" ads... intriguing tag lines and so forth. For the more ambitious statements, we can place black & white ads that include some cool graphics and such. I can also adapt some of my black & white graphic art from my guerilla marketing posters to use in some eye catching ads. We can do a lot with this idea. So let's start brainstorming!

11th Hour



>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Serenity Inspired Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Saturday, September 9, 2006 11:48 AM

11THHOUR


Just posting a couple of examples of what one of the text ads might look like when printed in a paper, and a graphic ad.

A "Classified" ad...



and our wonderful Kaylee... always a good choice to send warm wishes!



These are just quick examples I whipped up to help better illustrate the idea.

Also a Classified style ad doesn't necessarily have to be placed in that section. The ad would stand out even more if it looked like a Classified ad, but was placed, in an enlarged format, in some other part of the paper. This would go a long way to the "WTF?" factor that gets attention.

11th Hour

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Serenity Inspired Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Saturday, September 9, 2006 12:09 PM

VERSEEXPLORER



I love it!

Looking for a shiny ride.
Try a tranport ship - standard rayon excellerator
core class code 03-K64 Firefly.
Mule is included.

Contact:
Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Universal Studios

_______________________________
Mal: Saffron, you're pleasing, you're all kinds of pleasing, and uhh...it's been awhile, a long damn while, since anybody but me took a hold of my plow.

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Saturday, September 9, 2006 12:20 PM

FOLLOWMAL




Great idea!

This is something that all Browncoats might be able to afford to do in small form. I'm gonna check my local papers and see how much it would cost me to run some in each.

Might be a good time to begin a few of these to peak folks interest. HBO is running our lovely movie right now. If someone saw an ad they might connect it!

This could be just as shiny as a big ad like in Variety if there were enough of them all across the country, all around the world. Has anyone ever done anything like this before? Saying thank you for a movie in print all around the world? No, I don't think so.
Browncoats can do this. It would be a mighty accomplishment.

Sure get Universal's attention!






From here to the eyes and the ears of the 'Verse
http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps/



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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:28 AM

IMIN


Did anyone see the Forever Knight advertisement in the Sci Fi Magazine this past time? It really truly is what we are trying to achieve. Just thought I would throw that out there.


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Friday, September 15, 2006 11:53 AM

KURYA


this looks shiny...
but if we want tit to appear in time for spet 30th, we better put in place well before that day because of deadlines etc. Maybe I can put in the University's paper. And I will look into putting ads in the free weekly newspapers in montreal ,it has wide wide circulation. How about online sites too?? What about craigslist.org etc, or would that be considered bad form?

Prakash

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Friday, September 15, 2006 5:54 PM

NOSADSEVEN


Fun idea, 11thHour!

Not exactly 'viral', as it's not quite self-replicating... but a cool idea, regardless.

And if someone could come up with something just right, we could clip it and send it in to Leno for his "headlines" segment. (not that they'd take it, but it'd be fun anyhow)

Other places to sneak some ads in:
-alternative college papers with free personals
-programs for school plays and concerts / band competitions (these usually have ads/messages that the announcer makes between bands) / football games
-church bulletins

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Sunday, September 17, 2006 8:39 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by VerseExplorer:

I love it!

Looking for a shiny ride.
Try a tranport ship - standard rayon excellerator
core class code 03-K64 Firefly.
Mule is included.
_______________________________



I know what you mean ! But I think it would be spelled "radion-accelerator" .

The rayon-excellerator is the thing they use to make Wash's Hawaiian-floweredy shirts !

Keep the Faith . Share the Love . Feel the Joy !

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Sunday, September 17, 2006 9:41 PM

VERSEEXPLORER


Thanks, Out2theBlack, I am definitely no Kaylee. I appreciate your eye for detail. Although KURYA posted:

Quote:

this looks shiny...
but if we want tit to appear in time for spet 30th



you didn't correct the spelling, or are you hoping for the "tit" to appear?




_______________________________
Mal: Saffron, you're pleasing, you're all kinds of pleasing, and uhh...it's been awhile, a long damn while, since anybody but me took a hold of my plow.

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Sunday, September 17, 2006 11:49 PM

ARBAS


Oh that's a nice idea :D

Apart from calling Serenity an it - she's a her!

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Monday, September 18, 2006 12:04 AM

VERSEEXPLORER


Quote:

Arbas wrote:
Sunday, September 17, 2006 23:49
Oh that's a nice idea :D



It would probably help to spread the word about the "Verse. I might add that to my Shindig invitation. The tit will appear at 7 PM. Sounds like a great idea to grab the attention of non Browncoats that aren't into Sci Fi.

Sorry, this is a serious Guerilla Marketing thread. I just couldn't resist a little humor.




_______________________________
Mal: Saffron, you're pleasing, you're all kinds of pleasing, and uhh...it's been awhile, a long damn while, since anybody but me took a hold of my plow.

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Monday, September 18, 2006 5:05 AM

KURYA


hey!
Ooops... yeah.. thanx for noticing. noooo tit was not my intention lol, I won't bother fixing the mistake now. A little humour is needed, especially in the way you make up the ad!
And I think tit, might add an extra dimension of the "WTF" factor, but it might draw in folks looking for something else ;)
Prakash

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Monday, September 18, 2006 7:11 AM

EMBERS


I love this idea!
I just saw it mentioned at Whedonesque and it struck me:
not only is there a possibility of getting readers to rent & watch Serenity (and Firefly)
but it might also surprise the newspaper,
strike them as funny,
and lead to stories being done about the fandom:
our re-screenings, charity drives, shindigs, and other events
(all publicity is good!)


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Monday, September 18, 2006 10:23 AM

BUGMOM651


Leave it to 11th to come up with something as brilliant as this!

My hand to god. Baby Geese. Goslings. They were juggled. Get your own set of Juggling Goslings over at www.wash-o-saurus.com - home of the Original Browncoat Silicone Bracelets

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Friday, October 13, 2006 12:07 PM

11THHOUR


Just nudging this thread to the top because the subject of newspaper ads has been suggested recently.

I'm partial to an approach that doesn't "sell" so much as be geared to "attract" new folk to the 'Verse. People are bombarded every day with ads, folks start to get a tough skin just to keep from getting oversaturated.

But taking an approach that elicits curiosity, that prompts a person to want to find out more, can be extremely effective. Also, I'm a big believer in the "WTF?!" factor... heh...

Since Christmas is coming, perhaps an ad in the paper that takes the form of a "Christmas Wish List". There could be different lists geared to different kind of folk, and age groups. Have a funny, wild, or ultra cool, list of items, and feature Serenity DVDs (Firefly too) on the list with EXTRA emphasis. The presence of the other items combined with the DVDs will create curiosity and coolness by association.

I'll also be updating my guerilla marketing posters (again) to work with promoting as we head to the holidays. There will also be bookmark designs which means getting a lot more bang out of one piece of paper, AND expand guerilla endeavors.

11th Hour

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Serenity Inspired Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:30 AM

11THHOUR


Boosting this thread back on the radar in case anyone would like to incorporate any of the ideas into current newspaper ad endeavors.

11th Hour

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:07 PM

FOLLOWMAL




Thank you 11th Hour!!





Go to www.goodworkspresents.org to find out how to honor the Captain!

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:20 PM

TPAGE


Great idea! and BUMP!

Just curious now that all the Ceast and Desist stuff is over... would using the image of Kaylee/Jewel or any other cast member be some sort of infringement? I doubt the actors themselves would mind, but since you would be showing the character (which Fox/Universal have the copyright for and the license to use the actors images) ... ? Comments?

Glad we all, and by that I mean the guerilla merchandiser especially you 11thHour, made it through the C&D Days but I don't think we want another one.



And if someday on some little piss-ant moon/My hand is a little too slow, or my aim a little bit off/At least I’ll go down fighting, not lying abed surrounded by quacks - "Sir Warrick" by Geezer

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:42 PM

TDBROWN


Wonderful ideas here, 11th Hour. Much appreciated! TD/Tim


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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:17 AM

11THHOUR


Quote:

Originally posted by TPage:
Great idea! and BUMP!

Just curious now that all the Ceast and Desist stuff is over... would using the image of Kaylee/Jewel or any other cast member be some sort of infringement? I doubt the actors themselves would mind, but since you would be showing the character (which Fox/Universal have the copyright for and the license to use the actors images) ... ? Comments?



My suggestion would be to use the ideas here which involve just text, and steer clear (at least for the time being) of using graphic images.

I thought of this viral newspaper ad idea a couple of months back... before Universal decided to get all lawyerly... you know, back in the day when we were still under the impression that we were working in a kind of partnership with Universal toward a common goal. I still thought our promotional endeavors were welcomed by the studio, and not viewed as violations of intellectual property rights.

Of course there's been some rude awakenings in that department. Not that I'm still miffed or anything...

Anyway, only one of my above ideas involved using images to catch peoples' attention, which was connected with the one year anniversary of the movie premiere... and that is no longer applicable.

Best to just stick with text, and use it in a creative and interesting way to get the message across.

Quote:

Glad we all, and by that I mean the guerilla merchandiser especially you 11thHour, made it through the C&D Days but I don't think we want another one.


Agreed. Believe me, NO ONE wants to go through what I went through.

And as much as guerilla marketing is in my blood, and as much as supporting the 'verse is still important, I feel I must say to everyone that we all need to be more cautious these days. There has yet to be any kind of follow up statement from Universal, so it hasn't been made clear just how tolerant, or intolerant, their new attitude toward fans' use of Serenity movie related text or images is now... as such uses pertain to fan powered marketing work.

11th Hour

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Thursday, May 10, 2007 1:15 PM

11THHOUR


Bumping an older thread to the top. Perhaps some of the ideas presented here can be included in some new promotional activities for our shiny 'verse.

11th Hour

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Thursday, May 10, 2007 2:56 PM

REDHEAD


The idea is great. Did anyone follow through at all?

I especially liked the
Quote:


Stella

Keep the iPod, the X-Box, and my Halo game.
But I gotta get my Firefly and Serenity DVDs back
NOW.

Going through serious withdrawls here.

Reach me at: www.fireflyfans.net

ID: GottaHaveSerenity





To paraphrase Kaylee: Whedon's Firefly is just so lush. I want to take a bite out of it all over, you know?

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Friday, May 11, 2007 9:37 PM

FOLLOWMAL


Quote:

Originally posted by redhead:
The idea is great. Did anyone follow through at all?



Redhead, many of us used 11th Hour's suggestions in our local papers and in my case I used the Paper Caper ad and 11th's ad in my local trade paper where a lot of these kinds of ads are.

I have no way of knowing how many folks did it.

It's great to see it back and I hope lots of folks do it.





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Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:03 AM

SIMONF


What using the same idea for Google ads? Just a thought.

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Saturday, May 12, 2007 5:10 AM

FOLLOWMAL




SimonF,

They might be kind of fun to send round as a bulletin on your MySpace too.

Clever way to send info about Firefly to non-Firefly fans, which most of us have in our friends list in addition to our Serenifly fans.

That is the stated purpose of these, and I think 11th Hour is right. "Spread the word to them that needs told." We need new folks to enter the fandom. More the merrier.

Plus some of these are damn fun!



Just a thought...


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Saturday, May 12, 2007 9:26 AM

TDBROWN


When we launched the Paper Caper last year, the number of people participating was low, mainly due to expense. Newspaper ads cosr $$, more than anyone ever imagined. The most feasible approach turned out to be Trade Papers, like you see at Convenience Store Checkouts. They reach a large Audience, and one that doesn't normally get approached by our Genre. Not trying to dissuade anyone; there's got to be a way to do it thats effective and affordable. Just wanted to let y'all learn from our mistakes

Followmal and others have some internet versions of this idea that might be feasible. Best of luck!

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:56 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Just to comment on the actual ads that were suggested: Sure it'd be neat for most of us to see "cortex link", etc in the paper, but I don't think that it'd be that way for others outside our community. For most, there is a threshold for the number things that they don't "get" before they move on. And that number is typically around one.

IMO, to effectively reach those people, we're going to have to use language that they understand. And for the most part, that'll mean no direct FF references. The only exceptions to this would be stuff that needs no context to understand.

To give an example (so I'm putting my money where my mouth is so to say):

Browncoats
So, very pretty.
fireflyfans.net

Might be effective. It doesn't actually say anything yet may peak the curiosity enough to check it out.


But, as TDBrown says, these ads are costly. To add a suggestion, how about printing a flyer. This should cost 10-20 cents per copy (much cheaper). Then one could bribe the local paper/flyer boy to add that this in there stuff on there route. This would be much easier if you or your child is one

But remember that the people that fit into the category of that hates westerns and/or sci-fi and/or opera is pretty much everyone. These words cannot be used if we are to reach a wider audience.

In other words, we have to be sneaky

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, May 13, 2007 9:27 AM

11THHOUR


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Just to comment on the actual ads that were suggested: Sure it'd be neat for most of us to see "cortex link", etc in the paper, but I don't think that it'd be that way for others outside our community. For most, there is a threshold for the number things that they don't "get" before they move on. And that number is typically around one.



The "cortex link" is there to round out the theme of the ad, and since it is followed by a very recognized "www." url, any reader would understand this is a website address. But if it's something that would deter people, it can be easily left out.

Quote:

IMO, to effectively reach those people, we're going to have to use language that they understand. And for the most part, that'll mean no direct FF references. The only exceptions to this would be stuff that needs no context to understand.


The point of the ads I suggested was the "WTF?" factor.

You're suggesting a different kind of ad here. There are direct ads with easily understood wording, and ads that come from an unexpected direction... they are ads that aren't worded like traditional ads.

The ad ideas I suggested are just examples. But there's method behind the madness. They contain certain word cues that are meant to appeal to people who might be more likely to like a show like Firefly. Think of those ads as a kind of bait meant to attract potential fans of the 'verse.

Quote:

To give an example (so I'm putting my money where my mouth is so to say):

Browncoats
So, very pretty.
fireflyfans.net

Might be effective. It doesn't actually say anything yet may peak the curiosity enough to check it out.



You mentioned avoiding using references that an outsider wouldn't understand. The above example you suggested might look to an outsider like an advertisement for "so very pretty brown coats". Literally... brown coats... with the merging of the words being a typo.

Someone with an expectation of browsing a selection of "pretty brown coats", and coming upon the Fireflyfans.com website, would be quite confused. But not the kind of confused that would lead to further investigation. The "bait" used isn't really designed to draw in new people who might like the 'verse.

Quote:

But, as TDBrown says, these ads are costly. To add a suggestion, how about printing a flyer. This should cost 10-20 cents per copy (much cheaper). Then one could bribe the local paper/flyer boy to add that this in there stuff on there route. This would be much easier if you or your child is one

But remember that the people that fit into the category of that hates westerns and/or sci-fi and/or opera is pretty much everyone. These words cannot be used if we are to reach a wider audience.



Really? You know this for a fact?

The claim that the category of people who "hates westerns and/or sci-fi and/or opera is pretty much everyone" is pretty strong. "Hates" and "pretty much everyone"?! Do you really think this is true?

A well done Western is classic storytelling and loved by many, many people. It's a genre that is time proven, and anyone familiar with the show Deadwood knows just how compelling a "Western" can be.

And pretty much everyone "hates" Sci-Fi too? Wow. A whole lotta Sci-Fi franchises must be surviving on practically no one...

As for the category of opera. I had no idea that Firefly or Serenity would literally be considered an opera. C'mon...

Quote:

In other words, we have to be sneaky


Well, at some point people are gonna notice that there are space ships and horses in the 'verse.

Fans of the 'verse know that the Western and Sci-Fi elements of FF/S are just the backdrop to tell great stories. We don't have to be sneaky or avoid the subject. We celebrate it. Because ultimately there will be a certain percentage of people who will never be able to get past the eclectic nature of the 'verse.

Probably a good way to describe Firefly/Serenity when talking to new people is to refer to the great characters and stories, which take place in a futuristic, but still very human, setting. Or words to that effect...

Joss does not create his shows to appeal to everyone. He has often said that he'd rather have a few fans who love his work, rather than a lot of people who just "like" it.

That being said, I still think the 'verse has the potential to reach out beyond the Western/Sci-Fi genres, because it doesn't really fit in them. Those are just stylistic, exciting settings that allow for extraordinary story telling.

As for the expense of placing newspaper or local community paper ads, that is a consideration. The original idea envisioned groups of fans in different areas pooling their resources so that it became affordable. But as TDBrown pointed out, not too many people participated in his "Paper Chase" endeavor, so then the expense became prohibitive.

It has been mentioned that placing online ads might be another way to go. This sounds promising. What might be interesting is to still make the ads look like newspaper ads, even though they are online. That is another kind of "WTF?" factor that can draw attention. Plus it's a thematic blend of old world and new world that the 'verse does so well. Even if new folk don't know about that relationship, it doesn't matter because the approach is still effective.

The ad suggestions I made were just that, suggestions. Something to get the ball rolling, but to offer a stylistic launching point.

If people would rather make ads that are more literal, or do not contain any 'verse underlying themes, that's fine. Because what it comes down to is whatever works is good. We just want to reach out and connect in a way that will attract people that have a good potential of becoming FF/S fans.

What might be done as an experiment is to try different styles of ad, thematic and general, just to see which ones are the most effective. It's all a process of trial and error to discover what works the best.

11th Hour

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


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Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:55 AM

SPACEGIRL32


11th,

Good to see you over here now. The Drive Forum is pretty sad now. I think I am done with that place.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on T-Shirts? Do some styles work better then others? In other words, do some styles draw more looks or questions as oppose to other designs?

And if you want to start another thread on this topic.....be my guest!


Oh- I was wearing my 'Tully Landscaping T-Shirt' but then folks really thought I was advertising a REAL business. *sigh*

Now it sets in my closet with my other collection FOX canceled TV shows T-Shirts .

Chat with you more later!


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Sunday, May 13, 2007 12:33 PM

11THHOUR


Quote:

Originally posted by Spacegirl32:
11th,

Good to see you over here now. The Drive Forum is pretty sad now. I think I am done with that place.



Howdy back Spacegirl, good to see you too.

The Drive forum has become a multi-car pile up. I was telling another Browncoat who posts there that my nickname for the place is "The Drive Mosh Pit".

The people there are not responding to positive suggestions. They're just complaining, ranting, or adding posts to the "petition" thread. It's a classic case of what not to do to save a show.

The handful of sane folks, yourself included , were overwhelmed by the pervasive lunatics. Let 'em run the asylum. If the circumstances were different (more shows, possible DVD and Tim expressing a desire to continue) I'd help fight the good fight. But alas, that is not the case. Instead, I hold high hopes for awesome talents of Tim Minear and Nathan Fillion to continue on to bigger and better things... and they know we will be there to support them.

Quote:

Anyway, what are your thoughts on T-Shirts? Do some styles work better then others? In other words, do some styles draw more looks or questions as oppose to other designs?


T-shirts are shiny.

Certain styles connect better with different folks. It's always good to have a variety to appeal to a wider range of people. But the underlying theme should be 'eye-catching' and memorable... leaving people with the curiosity to find out more.

My guerilla marketing posters also work well as t-shirt graphics. They were designed to be bold and viewable from a distance, and that applies to t-shirts as well as posters/flyers. It's important to catch people's attention, but there are different ways to accomplish that. My posters are one way, but not the only way.

Quote:

And if you want to start another thread on this topic.....be my guest!


Oh, but you renewed the idea... so please feel free to start a thread. I'm really not trying to run anything here. I just saw an upsurge in interest in promoting FF/S and I wanted to contribute some helpful feedback and encouragement.

When I see the seeds of guerilla marketing dropped, I come by and happily bring some water to help it grow. Of course some people might say I'm bringing the fertilizer...

Quote:

Oh- I was wearing my 'Tully Landscaping T-Shirt' but then folks really thought I was advertising a REAL business. *sigh*

Now it sets in my closet with my other collection FOX canceled TV shows T-Shirts.



A person could build quite a t-shirt wardrobe based on cancelled FOX shows... If Drive had been allowed to continue, then folks would have known what your cool t-shirt referred to. *sigh* indeed...

Quote:

Chat with you more later!





11th

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Sunday, May 13, 2007 3:36 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@11thHour:

"""
The "cortex link" is there to round out the theme of the ad, and since it is followed by a very recognized "www." url, any reader would understand this is a website address. But if it's something that would deter people, it can be easily left out.
"""

I never said that people wouldn't understand what the cortex link thing was, and would confuse what a url was.

IMO, there is a fine line between the wtf factor v.s. the people thinking something is strange. IMO, having the cortex thing in there would give people the strange feeling more than anything else.


"""
The point of the ads I suggested was the "WTF?" factor.

You're suggesting a different kind of ad here. There are direct ads with easily understood wording, and ads that come from an unexpected direction... they are ads that aren't worded like traditional ads.
"""

People get scared (or similar feelings) of things that they don't know. It is my assertion that these types of ads would invoke such feelings. At the very least, even the "ads that come from an unexpected direction" have some familiar element(s) to them. It is my opinion that the ones you listed do not meet this criteria.

Let's be clear, this is not about getting all artistic and considering only the artistic side from a FF/S fan perspective. This whole thing has a very practical goal. And if the ad leaves non-fans not knowing what went on, a la the Simpsons Mr. Plow commercial, then the job isn't getting done.


"""
The ad ideas I suggested are just examples. But there's method behind the madness. They contain certain word cues that are meant to appeal to people who might be more likely to like a show like Firefly. Think of those ads as a kind of bait meant to attract potential fans of the 'verse.
"""

In your opinion. Take your examples for Classified for instance. No offense, but if I saw a similar ad for say Stargate SG-1, I'd think that there community is one in which I certainly wouldn't want to participate in. Even though I do like Stargate SG-1.

Creative yes. Neat to find on a FF/S site for a FF/S fan, yes. But, we are not the people on the outside.


"""
You mentioned avoiding using references that an outsider wouldn't understand. The above example you suggested might look to an outsider like an advertisement for "so very pretty brown coats". Literally... brown coats... with the merging of the words being a typo.
"""

I did note an exception, yes?


"""
Someone with an expectation of browsing a selection of "pretty brown coats", and coming upon the Fireflyfans.com website, would be quite confused. But not the kind of confused that would lead to further investigation. The "bait" used isn't really designed to draw in new people who might like the 'verse.
"""

Um, below you question my assertion but you're doing pretty much the same thing yourself here that you criticise below. If that's your opinion (I obviously disagree) fine. But, let's not say things without qualifying that. Let's practice what we preach, yes?


"""
Really? You know this for a fact?

The claim that the category of people who "hates westerns and/or sci-fi and/or opera is pretty much everyone" is pretty strong. "Hates" and "pretty much everyone"?! Do you really think this is true?

A well done Western is classic storytelling and loved by many, many people. It's a genre that is time proven, and anyone familiar with the show Deadwood knows just how compelling a "Western" can be.

And pretty much everyone "hates" Sci-Fi too? Wow. A whole lotta Sci-Fi franchises must be surviving on practically no one...

"""

There was an "and/or" NOT just an "and". As in one or more. As in the combination of people that hate one or more of these things is pretty much everyone. And I thought the hyperbole was obvious.

But, if you think that Sci-Fi people number so very many, how come pretty much everything that the Sci-Fi channel has produced has struggled? How come pretty much all Sci-Fi stuff isn't very profitable if it is profitable at all? If anything, it is that there is so little Sci-Fi stuff to choose from that makes it profitable i.e. people are starved for it and as such put up with lower quality to "get a fix."


"""
As for the category of opera. I had no idea that Firefly or Serenity would literally be considered an opera. C'mon...
"""

FF /has/ been called a space opera before. This is what I was refering to.


"""
Fans of the 'verse know that the Western and Sci-Fi elements of FF/S are just the backdrop to tell great stories. We don't have to be sneaky or avoid the subject. We celebrate it. Because ultimately there will be a certain percentage of people who will never be able to get past the eclectic nature of the 'verse.
"""

Yes, *fans* know this. BUT, those that do _not_ like westerns, which is a significant portion of society, will get turned off and not even start watching it. Similarly for Sci-Fi. This has been said by countless Browncoats on this very board. Check the archives.

You have to get people in the door to see what's going on. And if we are to reach people that are adverse to Sci-Fi and/or Westerns and/or opera, we /are/ going to have to be sneaky.

In all hoesty, I think you're advertising to the wrong people. We are _not_ advertising to ourselves, we are advertising to those outside this community. And that is a *very* different beast.


"""
That being said, I still think the 'verse has the potential to reach out beyond the Western/Sci-Fi genres, because it doesn't really fit in them. Those are just stylistic, exciting settings that allow for extraordinary story telling.
"""

I agree that people who don't like Westerns/Sci-Fi/opera stand a good chance of enjoying FF. For instance, my parents hate Sci-Fi, but like FF quite a bit (btw, I was sneaky with them).

I mean, I've tried to get many friends to get to watch many different things. Things are are great shows/movies/etc. But, if there was even one thing that they didn't like in it, and they knew it, it was like trying to move a mountain to get the watch it.

Basically, how exactly are you going to get these people to watch it if you tell them that there are elements of what they don't like in it or if you allude to said elements?

This is a significant problem that needs solving and celebrating the problem is hardly a solution.


"""
Plus it's a thematic blend of old world and new world that the 'verse does so well. Even if new folk don't know about that relationship, it doesn't matter because the approach is still effective.
"""

Again, how do you get your foot in the door if there is a massive doorstop in the way called Western/Sci-Fi/opera? Sure the blend works very well, but that is moot if people won't give it a chance.


""
The ad suggestions I made were just that, suggestions. Something to get the ball rolling, but to offer a stylistic launching point.
"""

If what you say was true, then why such an aggressive post? Why am I getting the feeling like you are taking my post as a personal attack?


"""
What might be done as an experiment is to try different styles of ad, thematic and general, just to see which ones are the most effective. It's all a process of trial and error to discover what works the best.
"""

No offense, but people have been using your ads (that are quite particular to FF/S) for some time and it doesn't seem as though they are working to a significant degree. Perhaps it is this that should send the signal that we need to change things.


At any rate, this is just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.


----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, May 13, 2007 4:07 PM

11THHOUR


SigmaNunki

Please note the last part of my post to which you replied:

Quote:

The ad suggestions I made were just that, suggestions. Something to get the ball rolling, but to offer a stylistic launching point.

If people would rather make ads that are more literal, or do not contain any 'verse underlying themes, that's fine. Because what it comes down to is whatever works is good. We just want to reach out and connect in a way that will attract people that have a good potential of becoming FF/S fans.

What might be done as an experiment is to try different styles of ad, thematic and general, just to see which ones are the most effective. It's all a process of trial and error to discover what works the best.



I put this at the end of my post because it's the most important part. Posting back and forth about the details of how to word the ads will eventually bog down our energies.

There are no bosses here. I was just expressing my opinion and fleshing out the philosophy behind the wording of my ads. I'm perfectly happy to drop this part of the conversation and move forward.

Please feel free to create ads you think would work well. Absolutely get them out where people can see them. It'd be great to attract a new surge of people to Firefly and Serenity. I'd be awesome to see the DVD sales just keep staying high on the best seller lists.

I look forward to your ideas and hope that more people will become interested in participating in this endeavor. I have confidence that the more fans who join in will create more great brainstorming... this idea could hopefully become something very positive for the 'verse.

Every bit of positive guerilla marketing helps.

11th Hour

P.S.

As to this statement in your post:

Quote:

No offense, but people have been using your ads (that are quite particular to FF/S) for some time and it doesn't seem as though they are working to a significant degree. Perhaps it is this that should send the signal that we need to change things.


I'm not sure what "ads" you are referring to. The ads suggested in this thread were never used. Another fan launched a promotion called "The Paper Chase" which involved newspaper ads, but I was not involved with that.

Again, if you want to create ads, please do so. But it would be better to just be positive and go ahead and do it. Show us in more detail what you have in mind. Move forward with your plan, the more it takes shape the better the chances that people will join in.

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Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:28 PM

SIGMANUNKI


God I'm tired. Please forgive me for any funny wording.

Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:

Every bit of positive guerilla marketing helps.




Very true. That is certainly is _not_ in question. But, what I was/am trying to do is post my opinions which I think will lead to more effective ads. For what it's worth at least.


Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:

I'm not sure what "ads" you are referring to. The ads suggested in this thread were never used. Another fan launched a promotion called "The Paper Chase" which involved newspaper ads, but I was not involved with that.




Inaccurate wording on my part. I was referring to the posters and such on your webpage that was linked in your sig.

http://the11thhour.home.att.net/

Creative, yes. Pretty, yes. Fun for us, yes. But, an effective marketing tool? IMO, not for a general audience and I'm not aware of being historically incorrect on this (though I may be?).


Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:

Again, if you want to create ads, please do so. But it would be better to just be positive and go ahead and do it. Show us in more detail what you have in mind. Move forward with your plan, the more it takes shape the better the chances that people will join in.




I appreciate that you are hinting that you want me to put my money where my mouth is and you certainly are right to do so. But, I already have.

I'll note that I have already pointed out what I consider problems with things that was already posted. I have posted a general philosophy regarding creating ads with example. I have also put forth another delivery method that, to my knowledge, hasn't been considered before.

I have also made a suggestion in another thread that you might be interested in:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=20&t=28669#493597

As it could/should be implemented artistically.


I also appreciate that you want things to remain in the most positive light as possible. I certainly agree.

But, when one is /only/ positive, things that might not be as effective, or possibly even counter-productive, might be done. In the end, this is far more damaging than any criticism that might be done here. The former wastes energy and resources, and latter actually detracts. Constructive criticism is a great tool for discussing what does and doesn't work. It is part of the brainstorming process.

Basically, to rule out constructive criticism is a bad idea. And I think that I've done that here. If it came off as the not constructive variety, I apologize. It was certainly meant to be constructive. I will try to be more vigilant in the future.


In closing, because I think this point is important enough to bear repeating, I'll point out a problem that I see on these forums in 90+% of the ideas. That problem being the audience problem.

Certainly, a lot of these 90+% ideas are fun and good. But, to us. So, if we're talking about trying to get the community members be more active, etc, then these are certainly ideas to be strongly considered. There is no question.

But, as soon as our target audience moves from within the community to outside it, we must reconsider. And I honestly believe, because of my experience with and observation of people from different walks of life, that the type of ad that you suggested as a starting point above, would probably detract.

Though, please do not think that I think that your suggestion ads are totally without merit. They certainly /do/ have there place. As I said, it's about the audience.

For instance, I'd love to see them, and/or similar things, in a newsletter or e-zine produced by and for the community. I think they'd be fun there.


At any rate, I feel that this is where I should be wrapping up the post in a way that leaves magical happiness and warm fuzzies in your heart. But, I'm way too tired to think of one. So, let's just pretend that happened.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, May 13, 2007 9:31 PM

11THHOUR


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:

I'm not sure what "ads" you are referring to. The ads suggested in this thread were never used. Another fan launched a promotion called "The Paper Chase" which involved newspaper ads, but I was not involved with that.




Inaccurate wording on my part. I was referring to the posters and such on your webpage that was linked in your sig.

http://the11thhour.home.att.net/

Creative, yes. Pretty, yes. Fun for us, yes. But, an effective marketing tool? IMO, not for a general audience and I'm not aware of being historically incorrect on this (though I may be?).



Yes, you are incorrect.

Historically, and currently, the posters/mini-flyers are an effective marketing tool, and they do appeal to people unfamiliar with Firefly/Serenity. This is not just my opinion. I, and many other fans, have seen their effectiveness and used them with great success. I could cite numerous stories, but that would be very time consuming. If you want testimonials, ask the experienced, longer term, fans.

At any rate, the posters/mini-flyers work well for what they were designed to do. They aren't the only way to guerilla market, and it's always a good idea to think of additional tools to add to our arsenal.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:

Again, if you want to create ads, please do so. But it would be better to just be positive and go ahead and do it. Show us in more detail what you have in mind. Move forward with your plan, the more it takes shape the better the chances that people will join in.




I appreciate that you are hinting that you want me to put my money where my mouth is and you certainly are right to do so. But, I already have.



Well, what I was saying is that more than one example would be better.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I have also made a suggestion in another thread that you might be interested in:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=20&t=28669#493597

As it could/should be implemented artistically.



An interesting idea, though a bit time intensive. Often street marketers need to post their promotions in a hurry, hence posters being a handy thing to use. I know this from experience, and having to work stealthily in the (very) early morning hours.

As to the sidewalk chalk messages, if the idea was effective then there might be some folks around here willing to give it a try.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But, when one is /only/ positive, things that might not be as effective, or possibly even counter-productive, might be done. In the end, this is far more damaging than any criticism that might be done here. The former wastes energy and resources, and latter actually detracts. Constructive criticism is a great tool for discussing what does and doesn't work. It is part of the brainstorming process.

Basically, to rule out constructive criticism is a bad idea. And I think that I've done that here. If it came off as the not constructive variety, I apologize. It was certainly meant to be constructive. I will try to be more vigilant in the future.



I believe in constructive criticism. I seek it out in my professional work, and have people I trust who I know will give me honest feedback. However, certain discussions reach a point where the "agree to disagree" thing needs to kick in. Especially in this particular case, as I really don't care anymore if people want to use the ad ideas I suggested in this thread, or not.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
At any rate, I feel that this is where I should be wrapping up the post in a way that leaves magical happiness and warm fuzzies in your heart. But, I'm way too tired to think of one. So, let's just pretend that happened.



Don't know if you meant that to sound condescending, but it sure reads that way.

Anyway, not too interested in this discussion ending in "magical happiness" and "warm fuzzies"... I was really more interested in it just ending. My attempt to conclude on a positive note seems to have come off as Pollyannaish. When I'm sounding extra, extra positive, it's often just me making a concerted effort to hold back the sardonic bitch within.

11th Hour

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Monday, May 14, 2007 11:18 AM

SIGMANUNKI


"""
Yes, you are incorrect.
"""

Then I stand corrected


"""
If you want testimonials, ask the experienced, longer term, fans.
"""

You seem to be implying that I'm not an experienced longer term fan. I hope that you aren't implying this because I am. Just because I'm not familiar withe one aspect of this fandom doesn't mean that I'm not.


"""
Well, what I was saying is that more than one example would be better.
"""

I can't disagree. But, I work more on the back-burner principle. The ideas I presented were the work of that over several days. If/when I come up with more, I'll be sure to post them


"""
An interesting idea, though a bit time intensive. Often street marketers need to post their promotions in a hurry, hence posters being a handy thing to use. I know this from experience, and having to work stealthily in the (very) early morning hours.

As to the sidewalk chalk messages, if the idea was effective then there might be some folks around here willing to give it a try.
"""

Unfortunately, I was wasn't privy to the effectiveness of the campaign. So, I can't really speak on that. But, I would think that with careful choosing of locations and what was drawn, it would be at least somewhat effective e.g. Bus stops around Universities or high-schools. Hell, someone in art class might be able to get credit for it. If it's a class project, then late night stealth wouldn't be required.

But, yes it's somewhat time consuming.

I imagine that something like one of your posters might work. Since it's "just" shading it'd be quicker to draw and not terribly chalk intensive.

At any rate, just a thought for those more artistically inclined than myself


"""
I believe in constructive criticism. I seek it out in my professional work, and have people I trust who I know will give me honest feedback. However, certain discussions reach a point where the "agree to disagree" thing needs to kick in. Especially in this particular case, as I really don't care anymore if people want to use the ad ideas I suggested in this thread, or not.
"""

Although I have said (and fully believe) that your ads wouldn't be effective for the audience that you are targeting through the medium your chose, an idea popped in my head today.

Instead of targeting a general readership through local newspapers, I think ads similar to what you posted might be appropriate to have in Sci-Fi/Western specific magazines (online or not), etc. Of course altering to target the specific audience.

Anyway, just a thought if you change your mind.


"""
Don't know if you meant that to sound condescending, but it sure reads that way.

Anyway, not too interested in this discussion ending in "magical happiness" and "warm fuzzies"... I was really more interested in it just ending.
"""

I thought that it was obvious with the that I meant it to _not_ be condescending; more funny than anything else. And you missed my hyperbole again.

But, if you really want to end something, I'd suggest being somewhat more explicit in the future. And not I'm not being condescending or any such thing here. I just mention it because when people are subtle to one degree or another, one cannot expect others to pick that up. Especially when we are communicating solely by text.


"""
My attempt to conclude on a positive note seems to have come off as Pollyannaish. When I'm sounding extra, extra positive, it's often just me making a concerted effort to hold back the sardonic bitch within.
"""

I'll try to keep that in mind if we discuss again


----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, May 14, 2007 10:59 PM

FOLLOWMAL


SigmaNunki,

I've refrained from posting hoping not to be the recipient of your ire. I expect I'll get some now.

Seems to me when 11th Hour attempted a bit of feedback and participation you sure cut that off quickly. Now you may not have meant that, you called it constructive criticism, but I know my heart went out to her. As someone who would like to contribute ideas to this campaign I have to say I feel pretty tentative about doing so. If you would treat 11th Hour who has sacrificed so much for this community and worked so tirelessly all these years and who has produced some of the most beautiful art in this fandom, not to mention created the cover art for the RPG like that, how will you "constructively criticize" me when I submit something to this thread?

Is anyone who provides an idea or has had a past idea that doesn't quite match what you think of as successful going to have to be subjected to that same feeling? Because that didn't feel like "constructive criticism" to me, that felt like good old fashioned "conflict". It felt like to me that you enjoyed it too, and I'm just not into feeling bad while I'm here, Sig... I love my community and I want to work hard for a sequel, but do I want to really feel as bad as I'm guessin' you can make me feel? Is it going to be worth it?

It's been my experience that when the community plans something big ( no matter who has the idea, no matter who gets the credit, no matter what it's about ) that there needs to be that feeling of esprit de corps, the common goal, the thing to reach for all together. The feeling of all inclusiveness is inspiring and part of what makes us Browncoats. It calls us to service and makes us want to participate.

And therein lies the problem. I know you guys are in the planning stages, but I already feel unwelcome to participate. I would guess that 11th Hour feels unwelcome to participate as well. You don't have to be a mind readin' genius to see that you made a very sweet, hard working member of our community feel as if her ideas which have been working solidly for years aren't up to your criteria. There are folks in this fandom who love 11th Hour, Sig...they will be put off from your ideas and leadership because of the way you treated her.



Now for some constructive criticism from me. If
you can dish it out, let's hope you can take some.

You will need every one of us, Sig to make something big happen. Whether we're doing some sidewalk drawing in one town, or using 11th Hour's posters that you dissed so readily to recruit like we have for years now or buying the DVD SE en masse, you're going to need us all. We need to feel hooked into whatever you are deciding we're going to do.

We will follow a leader who makes us feel included.
We won't follow a leader who makes us feel disliked and unappreciated. Even the lowliest of the folks who will surround you and work for you, Sig will need to feel like they're following a leader who deserves their devotion and hard work.

If you want us all to participate and not blow off your plans, I suggest an attitude adjustment.
Call us to your side, don't expect us to fall in behind you.
Respect us as you would have us respect you.


ETA: I removed Anduine's name as he's had nothing to do with this feeling of discomfort you make me feel, in fact he's been savvy and welcoming in all missives and posts. You could take a cue from him, Sigmanunki.







To join us go here: http://www.serenitymovie.org/browncoats/forums/index.php?showtopic=870
5


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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 7:09 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


I for one am not worthy and bow down in awe to both FollowMal AND 11th hour and thank them BOTH for ALL the tireless work they have put in for all this time!

And if I had one of those neat little bowing emoticons it would surely be displayed!


---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 9:11 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Your post seems to imply that any response by myself will be interpreted as hostile. I honestly hope that this isn't the case. Below you will find my response to your post and I hope that it will be interpreted as a "matter of fact" response with _no_ hostility. And I hope any response that you may give will be made in the same way.

Quote:

Originally posted by FollowMal:

I've refrained from posting hoping not to be the recipient of your ire. I expect I'll get some now.

...snip...




Please don't take this the wrong way, but it is my impression that you're going along with 11th Hour's interpretation of what I said. 11th Hour choose to interpret my posts as hostile, even after I explicitly stated (and re-iterated) the contrary. Even after I spend *much* time wording things so that they wouldn't be (if read fresh). But she choose to continue to interpret them with a hostile bent and you seem to have done this as well. I /cannot/ control that people do this and I don't think that it is fair to blame me for what I can't control.

i.e. I dialed back, but she decided not to listen. Don't blame me for that.

But, I actually re-read my original post in this thread and I can't say I see it as being overly aggessive. As in, I said what I thought was the problem (*very* briefly), my opinion of how to fix that, an example ad, a delivery method that I didn't/don't think has been posted before, and then another general idea about how to do things. Now given how much I suggested, and how light on critisism was in that post, /I/ really don't think that *I* deserved the "ire" (as you put it) from 11th Hour.

IMO, this conversation started off with me offering constructive criticism and some ideas and then having to defended myself from 11th Hour even after I dialed back as I saw that clearly wasn't working, not to mention offering more ideas. And now I seem to be bearing the sole blame.

In all honesty, I think that you are letting whatever argument that 11th Hour and myself had overshadow the ideas that I put forth to the point where you aren't acknowledging them.


Quote:

Originally posted by FollowMal:

Is anyone who provides an idea or has had a past idea that doesn't quite match what you think of as successful going to have to be subjected to that same feeling?




"My" criteria will be the same as it is for _any_ marketing campaign. You choose a target audience. From that, you look to see where they are and create ads that target those specific people. If someone sees that the target audience doesn't match the ads, why shouldn't one point it out? Because designing an ad that doesn't fit the audience that will see it can be disastrous.

I made (what I believe to be) a strong case against those ads (or similar one) being used in that way. But, as you are well aware, in my previous post, I DID note where similar ads might be effective. One needs to either change the ad or change the target. And by the end, I offered ideas for both. Let's not ignore that.


Quote:

Originally posted by FollowMal:

And therein lies the problem. I know you guys are in the planning stages, but I already feel unwelcome to participate. I would guess that 11th Hour feels unwelcome to participate as well. You don't have to be a mind readin' genius to see that you made a very sweet, hard working member of our community feel as if her ideas which have been working solidly for years aren't up to your criteria. There are folks in this fandom who love 11th Hour, Sig...they will be put off from your ideas and leadership because of the way you treated her.




This is actually one of the problems that I see in communities. And it isn't limited to here or fandoms in general. That problem being that certain members of the community are "sacred" (please note the hyperbole). That they can't be touched and if you dare to criticize them, you have to be so careful it isn't funny.

It was what I loved about this community when I first came here. No-one was above anyone else and everyones opinion mattered equally. But, now we have people getting followings. People being above other people as it were. We now have a hierarchy if only unspoken.

I've seen where followings and hierarchy leads and it isn't pretty. In fact, it can cripple a community.

Also, where did you get that I was trying to be a leader? How is how much we like people strongly coupled to whether there ideas are good or not?

For instance, I not terribly fond of RiverRunsDeep. But, I have said to Anduine that his/her Digg idea was a damn good one. How is it reasonable to "shoot ourselves in the foot" because of petty rivalry?


Quote:

Originally posted by FollowMal:

You will need every one of us, Sig to make something big happen. Whether we're doing some sidewalk drawing in one town, or using 11th Hour's posters that you dissed so readily to recruit like we have for years now or buying the DVD SE en masse, you're going to need us all. We need to feel hooked into whatever you and Anduine are deciding we're going to do.




Actually, if you check the other thread I'm definitely _not_ in the three that are setting things up (Anduine, Red and Wolf). I'm certainly /not/ going to take any blame for that.

Also, I sent an email yesterday to Anduine to start addressing the secrecy problem and got a promising response. If it were up to me /everything/ would have been done in a thread. But, I'm _not_ coordinating things. So, I just have to go along with how things are run and bring up any issues that I see. Which is was I've done in this thread as well.

(Btw, Anduine told me that he is just working out logistics and is against secrecy as well. So, this should end soon.)

Regarding the posters, please re-read my response after 11th Hour informed me of there success that I explicitly stated /that/ /I/ /didn't/ /know/ /about/. That being said, one shouldn't confuse success with success for a certain type of person. We need to understand /why/ the posters work (i.e. what type of people it speaks to) so that marketing can be improved. Not everyone looks at posters while out and about. So, assuming that such things will work for everyone isn't a good assumption.

That is pretty much my main point here. That ads, though may work in one area, aren't necessarily going to work in another. We need to be sensitive to this fact if we are to be successful.

The side-walk chalk thing was an idea /for/ /others/. I'm not in charge of that one, I just threw it out there for others. Please re-read my post on that, as I was quite clear that it was for others that had more artistic talent than myself.

You also imply that I'm part of a project (or will be) that would be involved in getting people to buy the SE DVD en masse. I am not involved in any such project nor will I be. Where did you get this as I haven't even alluded to it?


Quote:

Originally posted by FollowMal:

We will follow a leader who makes us feel included.
We won't follow a leader who makes us feel disliked and unappreciated. Even the lowliest of the folks who will surround you and work for you, Sig will need to feel like they're following a leader who deserves their devotion and hard work.

If you want us all to participate and not blow off your plans, I suggest an attitude adjustment.
Call us to your side, don't expect us to fall in behind you.
Respect us as you would have us respect you.




You speak of respect and then keep using my handle. This gives me the impression that you are condescending to me. I honestly hope that this isn't the case as this isn't exactly respectful. I mean, you say that respect breeds respect and that is certainly true. But, how is this helping anything? How is putting words in my mouth or saying things that just plain are not true respectful?

For that matter, how is correcting a misunderstanding disrespectful? B/c that is largely what I've done in this thread.

Also, I'd like to know how these projects are working /for/ someone. I for one, in a community, will _not_ work /for/ someone. But, I will work /with/ someone. Sure, that'll probably mean having a coordinator. But, that is very different from having a boss.

Also, my participation in the "blog" project will have little to do with people who are not developers. So, there's actually a good chance that people like yourself (I'm assuming you're not a developer) will have little to no contact with me. So, any problem that people have with me shouldn't really play a role if they are going to be involved in the "blog" thing. This is also the only project that I'll be participating in as my skills and interests are support than anything else.

At any rate, I've done my best and spent an extraordinary about of time trying to get this post right. Hopefully that shows and will be taking in the right light. Because I've done all I can do.


Quote:

Originally posted by FollowMal:

ETA: I removed Anduine's name as he's had nothing to do with this feeling of discomfort you make me feel, in fact he's been savvy and welcoming in all missives and posts. You could take a cue from him, Sigmanunki.




With all due respect, if you would have read my posts in those other two threads, you wouldn't be making this comment. Do you honestly think that posts in one thread over such a short period of time is indicative of what someone is all about?

In all honestly, with this comment I have to ask: are you actually interested in working things out? Or are you more interested in "proving" your opinion "right"?

Because as /you/ have said, respect breeds respect. And I don't exactly see that in your post and certainly not in this edit. So, give from what you've said, why should I respect you? Just a little turn of the tables to make a point.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:36 AM

11THHOUR


When the resurgence in guerilla marketing endeavors appeared, I was happy to see it. The 'verse could do with a good boost, and it can be a very rewarding experience for the participants.

For the record, and I didn't think I had to state it as it seemed (at least to me) self evident:

• I am not trying to lead anything here. I was just doing my cheerleader thing when I saw a resurgence of guerilla marketing interest.

• Any perceptions of "hierarchy" are subjective. If other fans respond nicely to me it's because I've been around so damn long and done a lot of things for the 'verse, so people know me. Any opinions on someone being "sacred" are though the eyes of the beholder. Browncoats, and friends, stand up for each other all the time.

Now that that is out of the way, I truly hope the subject of "sacredness" doesn't rear its head again. It's very unpleasant.

Unless of course one of us insists on being called "Your Majesty", wears a shiny hat, and declares him/herself to be the King of All Londinium. That stuff has gotta stop

11th Hour

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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 11:34 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:

• I am not trying to lead anything here.




No-one said you were.


Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:

• Any perceptions of "hierarchy" are subjective. If other fans respond nicely to me it's because I've been around so damn long and done a lot of things for the 'verse, so people know me. Any opinions on someone being "sacred" are though the eyes of the beholder. Browncoats, and friends, stand up for each other all the time.




No-one said that you tried to make this happen. I just said that this certainly seems to be the case. Such things /can/ and /do/ happen in an organic way. Sometimes over a good chunk of time. Sometimes without anyone noticing. But, this doesn't mean that it doesn't happen nor is it not the case. Please stop thinking/assuming that I'm attacking you when I'm not.

But, I must point out that there is a big difference between being liked, defending oneself or someone else and acting as a force of vengeance (which FM's post certainly reads as). The last one being problematic.

And btw, let's not bring up how long we've been here. It's pretty much as ugly as bring up the "sacred". And if you think that I'm bring that up b/c I'm new, check my registration date. You've been here only 5 1/2 months more than I and when we've been here on the order of 3-4 years, that number isn't terribly significant. And just because your work in more visible than mine doesn't make my work any less than yours; just not published yet.


Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:

Now that that is out of the way, I truly hope the subject of "sacredness" doesn't rear its head again. It's very unpleasant.

Unless of course one of us insists on being called "Your Majesty", wears a shiny hat, and declares him/herself to be the King of All Londinium. That stuff has gotta stop




Now there a transparent comment if I ever saw one.



I thought that I was being clear. I thought that I had finally explained myself. But, this is ridiculous. If civil discourse is going to happen then such transparent comments cannot be posted. I thought this would be obvious, but clearly it isn't.

I think it is clear that you and FM (possibly others) have made up your minds that I'm a bastard and I think it is clear that nothing I say will change that i.e. it is clearly a lose lose situation for me.

So, until you guys are willing to see my side of things and truly want to have civil discourse, let's just ignore each-other. It's probably be best that way.

Please consider this my last post until the above criteria is met.

Good day.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:35 PM

11THHOUR


I was making a "just for the record" short statement. There was a lot of uproar last year when a guerilla marketing campaign was being discussed, and things got heated on the boards with regard to leadership. I thought it might be helpful to make a comment on this subject so as to avoid possible misunderstanding in connection with the intention my posts.

Again it was meant as a general statement to anyone who was interested. It was not a message just for you. Your posts may have prompted the issues, and events echoing last year were rekindled, but I was making a "just for the record" post. Really.

Quote:

And btw, let's not bring up how long we've been here. It's pretty much as ugly as bring up the "sacred". And if you think that I'm bring that up b/c I'm new, check my registration date. You've been here only 5 1/2 months more than I and when we've been here on the order of 3-4 years, that number isn't terribly significant. And just because your work in more visible than mine doesn't make my work any less than yours; just not published yet.


The reference to how long I've been around was thrown in only as a passing comment. Unfortunately the limitations of 'text only' communication do not allow for vocal or facial expressions which give the comment almost a weary, throw-away quality. It was meant as a kind of inside joke with other fans... more like having fun with the notion that someone would be crazy enough to keep at the guerilla marketing gig for so long. But then, we're all a little crazy.

As to the registration dates, that wasn't really what I was thinking about. Registration dates aren't very accurate as to the presence of people on a forum. Actually I lurked around here long before I registered. I was a bit intimidated by the complexity of FFF.net at first because I didn't have a lot of experience with message boards. My reference to how long I've been around was referring to my involvement with the 'verse in general, not just this one message board.

Again, that statement was not directed at you.

Quote:


Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:

Now that that is out of the way, I truly hope the subject of "sacredness" doesn't rear its head again. It's very unpleasant.

Unless of course one of us insists on being called "Your Majesty", wears a shiny hat, and declares him/herself to be the King of All Londinium. That stuff has gotta stop



Now there a transparent comment if I ever saw one.



Perhaps not quite as transparent as you think. It was a joke. I assumed that bit was over-the-top enough to be understood as a joke. It was actually added to bring some humor. An exaggerated example of what a fan-gone-loopy might do, in the hopes of helping to put things in perspective.

And most of all, it wasn't about you. It really wasn't.

The "us" referred to in the "King of all Londinium" sentence was the overall "us". "Us" meaning anyone who participates in these forums.. If one of "us" starts getting all uppity, then "that stuff has gotta stop". It was an observation that the fandom wouldn't tolerate anyone who was intentionally trying to be a big shot. Any of us would put a halt to that right quick.

In fact, my post wasn't even a reply to you. I intentionally replied to one of my own messages in order to have my post be a stand alone, which was why there were no direct quotes from anyone in the message. It really was a "for the record" post to address some issue that were brought up.

Quote:

I thought that I was being clear. I thought that I had finally explained myself. But, this is ridiculous. If civil discourse is going to happen then such transparent comments cannot be posted. I thought this would be obvious, but clearly it isn't.

I think it is clear that you and FM (possibly others) have made up your minds that I'm a bastard and I think it is clear that nothing I say will change that i.e. it is clearly a lose lose situation for me.

So, until you guys are willing to see my side of things and truly want to have civil discourse, let's just ignore each-other. It's probably be best that way.

Please consider this my last post until the above criteria is met.

Good day.



My my, we haven't had a good huffy exit around these parts in a long time.

11th Hour

P.S.
In the future it might work out better to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding in communication before you put a torch to those bridges. Just a thought.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:39 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Don't make me pull this thing over!


NotamusedFMFthemomisall


---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 2:13 PM

11THHOUR


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Don't make me pull this thing over!



*snicker*

Well, between the arm punching and the hair pulling, it's just too much of a pain to ride with FM and me.



11th Hour

P.S.

Thanks for the comedy relief...

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Tuesday, May 15, 2007 2:14 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:
Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Don't make me pull this thing over!



*snicker*

Well, between the arm punching and the hair pulling, it's just too much of a pain to ride with FM and me.



11th Hour

P.S.

Thanks for the comedy relief...



its what I do funnylookinFMFisall


---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Friday, June 8, 2007 4:32 PM

FILLIONAIRE


why not do this for the 23 of june? it might get people more interested in helping out with the Equality Now screenings.

it's a fabulous idea. the more that people come up with these little adds the better. and they don't need to be in the paper either. they can be on craigs list and other online advertising places - usedottawa (or your local shop) Kiji, the list goes on.

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 4:41 AM

FILLIONAIRE


lost - Doctor
5'10", brown hair, not weak
possible kidnapped by hill folk
if found please return to Mayfair Theater
June 23, 1:30 pm

cortex link: myspace.com/ottawabrowncoats
Central Ottawa (inside greenbelt)
Ad Id: 3301855

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:18 AM

11THHOUR


I LOVE the idea of linking to a MySpace account! That's a great way to set-up an area that can be made "newbie" friendly. MySpace is a familiar format to so many people, and it can be adapted to be a slice of the 'verse.

When I originally proposed the Viral Newspaper Ads last year, the plan was to have a newbie area set up here on FFF.net. It was to be on the front page and easy to see and access. The thing is, the ads can generate the curiosity and get new folk to see what it's about, but if they just land on FFF.net without any idea of what's going on, they'll most likely get overwhelmed by such a high content front page... and we don't want to go losing folk after we've roped them in!

The newbie area got thwarted, then we still need a good place for new folk to "land" when they get intrigued by the ad. A MySpace account could be set up that's both informative, and fun. Something that a totally new person could read over and get some good overall info on the fandom, and Firefly/Serenity. Then from the MySpace spot, they could be directed to other links and info.

The MySpace set up for the Ottawa Browncoats is mighty shiny indeed! The fans need to also set up a general Firefly/Serenity MySpace geared to as a great introduction of the 'verse to any brand new person, who we hope is a 'browncoat waiting to happen'!

Wow, so good to see this idea get rejuvenated in the spirit it was intended. Keep the suggestions coming and we can get some traction here!

11th Hour

P.S.

Quote:

Originally posted by fillionaire:
lost - Doctor
5'10", brown hair, not weak
possible kidnapped by hill folk
if found please return to Mayfair Theater
June 23, 1:30 pm

cortex link: myspace.com/ottawabrowncoats
Central Ottawa (inside greenbelt)
Ad Id: 3301855



Your ad idea is fun. Just a couple of thoughts tossed out there to maybe catch a few more eyeballs:
________________________________________________

LOST
Pompous Doctor and his Crazy Sister
(Possibly kidnapped by hill folk)
Important they be returned by
JUNE 23 at 1:30 p.m.
to the MAYFAIR THEATER

• One of them knows a BIG SECRET •

Cortex link: myspace.com/ottawabrowncoats
Central Ottawa (inside greenbelt)
Ad Id: 3301855

________________________________________________

If you like any of the suggestions for the ad, please feel free to use all, some, or none. Most of all, kudos for diving into the guerilla marketing pool! Everything thing we do to promote the 'verse in a positive way, makes a difference. 11th

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 4:23 PM

FILLIONAIRE


well the myspace can be adapted for any use after the shindig. we plan on posting how the event went and then it will be not much there until we do it again next year. it can easily be made into a newbie space. in fact i welcome any content that anyone wants to put up.

Quote:



The MySpace set up for the Ottawa Browncoats is mighty shiny indeed! The fans need to also set up a general Firefly/Serenity MySpace geared to as a great introduction of the 'verse to any brand new person, who we hope is a 'browncoat waiting to happen'!

Wow, so good to see this idea get rejuvenated in the spirit it was intended. Keep the suggestions coming and we can get some traction here!

11th Hour

P.S.



Your ad idea is fun. Just a couple of thoughts tossed out there to maybe catch a few more eyeballs:
________________________________________________

LOST
Pompous Doctor and his Crazy Sister
(Possibly kidnapped by hill folk)
Important they be returned by
JUNE 23 at 1:30 p.m.
to the MAYFAIR THEATER

• One of them knows a BIG SECRET •

Cortex link: myspace.com/ottawabrowncoats
Central Ottawa (inside greenbelt)
Ad Id: 3301855

________________________________________________

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