REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Tehran Condemns 300

POSTED BY: DAYVE
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 07:08
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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:20 AM

DAYVE


via Huff Po

Monsters And Critics | March 13, 2007 08:14 AM

Iran on Monday strongly condemned the US film company Warner Bros. over the allegedly 'anti-Iranian' blockbuster film 300.

Javad Shamqadri, art advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, told Fars news agency that the film was an insult to Persian culture and in line with the American 'psychological war' against Iran.


Funny, I don't remember such a condemnation over the 1962 film version - 'The 300 Spartans'

from IMDb...
Essentially true story of how Spartan king Leonidis led an extremely small army of Greek Soldiers (300 of them his personal body guards from Sparta) to hold off an invading Persian army more than 20 times as large. The actual heroism of those who stood (and ultimately died) with Leonidis helped shape the course of Western Civilization, allowing the Greek city states time to organize an army which repelled the Persians. Set in 480 BC. Written by Jes Beard


(personally, i was more insulted by 'Ishtar')




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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:56 AM

SHINYED


Pretty interesting, if not predictable, reaction from Iran. I'm waiting (not long) for the mullahs in Iran to issue one of their glorious fatwas and order the deaths of all those involved in the film. That would send Hollywood actors, writers, etc etc all scrambling & fleeing like Roman Polanski during a kiddie-porn raid at Nicholson's mansion....hey if it takes maniacal & demented religious sub-humans from Islam to shake up Hollywood degenerates...well it almost seems like a win-win.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 8:05 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


In a later update, Tehran has moved to sever all diplomatic relations with Sparta in response to their attack on peace-loving Persian invaders 2,487 years ago. Said President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, "Twenty Persians are the equal of one Spartan infidel any day. We see in this unbelievable tragedy the disguised hand of Bush - and his lapdog Blair."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:08 PM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
peace-loving Persian invaders



Thanks Geezer! That'[s the funniest thing I've heard all day.

"You can believe your eyes...or you can believe me." -Groucho Marx

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:23 PM

RUE


The funniest criticism of "300" was written by Ken Turran. For one thing he said you could tell the Persians were the bad guys b/c they were portrayed as extremely effeminate and debauched. He also said the Spartans' leather gear looked like leather speedos and they looked like "unusually fit lifeguards marching in the Doo Dah parade".

Now THAT'S funny.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Oh great. I've already seen it. Damn. NOW what am I suppose to do ?


I wish those mullahs would get their movie reviews out faster, so that way I can make my moview plans accordingly. Sheesh!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 1:56 AM

ARCLIGHT


Good stuff, Geezer. However, you forgot to mention the film is the brain child of Richard Cheney and entirely funded by Haliburton.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:27 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
In a later update, Tehran has moved to sever all diplomatic relations with Sparta in response to their attack on peace-loving Persian invaders 2,487 years ago. Said President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, "Twenty Persians are the equal of one Spartan infidel any day. We see in this unbelievable tragedy the disguised hand of Bush - and his lapdog Blair."



*pfffft!*


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*gasp*

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:29 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Dayve:
Essentially true story of how Spartan king Leonidis led an extremely small army of Greek Soldiers (300 of them his personal body guards from Sparta) to hold off an invading Persian army more than 20 times as large. The actual heroism of those who stood (and ultimately died) with Leonidis helped shape the course of Western Civilization, allowing the Greek city states time to organize an army which repelled the Persians. Set in 480 BC. Written by Jes Beard



Not to nitpick with IMDB, but the most conservative estimate of Xerxes' troop strength was 250,000. So Leonidas had 300 Sparatans and assorted others for a total of about 2,500 (Ernle Bradford, Thermopylae), which means he was outnumbered 100 to 1.

Guess that means Tehran will have to revise their press release.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:55 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Breaking news from our correspondent in Tehran.

Thanks, Bob. In a stunning development, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has issued
fatwas against the University of Michigan, Sylvester Stallone, and the town of Spartanburg, South Carolina in the United States. He stated, "By honoring the name of the Spartan infidels, these tools of evil insult our Persian fathers and our God. They must be struck down."

In a related story, state-controlled Iranian media is reporting that the weapons used by Leonidis and his Spartan terrorists are believed to have been supplied by Halliburton Corporation.


This may never get old.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:25 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

In a related story, state-controlled Iranian media is reporting that the weapons used by Leonidis and his Spartan terrorists are believed to have been supplied by Halliburton Corporation.



Huh? They didn't exist back then...is there a connection via family or something?

I don't get it Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:04 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


And now, more on the Spartan/Halliburton connection.

Scholars at the University of Tehran have discovered that Halliburton Corporation is the continuation of a 3000 year old secret society dedicated to the destruction of the Persian people. According to Dr. Mozafar Bakhtiyar, faculty member of the Faculty of Literature and Humanities, the word "Halliburton" is a corruption of the society's name, "χασάπης των εισβολέων", Greek for "Butcher of Invaders".

This just in! the Grand High Counsel, the religious ruling body of Iran, has declared a
Jihad or holy war, against Sparta. Military operations will commence immediately, once the Revolutionary Army's command structure finds Sparta on the map.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:05 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Breaking news from our correspondent in Tehran.

Thanks, Bob. In a stunning development, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has issued
fatwas against the University of Michigan, Sylvester Stallone, and the town of Spartanburg, South Carolina in the United States. He stated, "By honoring the name of the Spartan infidels, these tools of evil insult our Persian fathers and our God. They must be struck down."



As a hardcore U of M fan (except during basketball season), I take extreme offense at anyone even insinuating that their mascot is the Spartan. The correct term, if you please, is Wolverine. Spartans are for those infidels in Lansing (otherwise known as Michigan State).

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:06 AM

RUE


Slick,

I keep waiting for the punch line ... are you going to get to it any time soon?

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:32 AM

SHINYED


Just released today..." In a stunning development related to the "300" story, the highest of highs...the magilla-mullah of Teheran, Iatoilet Khomaniac issued a belated fart-twat today calling for the death of all survivng members of the band A Flock Of Seagulls." It seems their 1982 hit "I Ran", with it's homosexual theme, is being heard there for the first time(thanks to free Iraqi radio stations) and has sent the muzzy-wuzzies of Iran into another one of their outraged epileptic, body-twitching fits of dementia and death. Fortunately,they at least have some form of recreation to enjoy after a long day of genuflecting and burning American flags & jumping up & down like horny toads.....they can always gang rape a young Muslim girl nearby, have HER tried and convicted of a crime against Sharia...followed by a mere 90 lashes from the whip....that's a real hoot in the zany world of Islam.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
As a hardcore U of M fan (except during basketball season), I take extreme offense at anyone even insinuating that their mascot is the Spartan. The correct term, if you please, is Wolverine. Spartans are for those infidels in Lansing (otherwise known as Michigan State).



As noted in an earlier story, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has declared a fatwa against the University of Michigan. In a later statement, he expanded this edict against Michigan State University, the actual home of the Spartans sports teams. Claiming that although a translation error had caused the original action against U of M, who are known as the Wolverines, he noted that the fatwa would remain in place since no fatwa removal forms had yet been printed.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:11 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Here ya go Geezer, go wild.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2007-03-13-300-iran_N.htm?csp
=34


*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:16 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

I keep waiting for the punch line ... are you going to get to it any time soon?



Maybe. Maybe not. Does there really have to be a punchline? If no one else has to constantly worry about the arrival of a punchline and you do, do you have an obsession? Have you sought treatment for this punchline obsession?

...and in FFF.net news, Rue checks into the Henny Youngman Clinic For the Seriously Un-funny for treatment of punchline obsession. Doctors are recommending a regimen of laugh tracks and rimshots.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Here ya go Geezer, go wild.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2007-03-13-300-iran_N.htm?csp
=34





I give up. You just can't beat the real thing.

Hey Rue. Check link this out. Here's your punchline.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:21 AM

RUE


You ARE making assumptions, aren't you. TSK TSK

What makes you think I 'constantly worry'? Do you have a problem projecting yourself onto others? Have you sought help for that delusional thinking?

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:25 AM

CHRISISALL


Geezer man, we don't always see eye to eye, but you so came up with the funny on here- I gotta hand it to ya!

Cracked-up Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:37 AM

RUE


Slick,

Is this the punchline?

"Even some American reviewers noted the political overtones of the West-against-Iran story line — and the way Persians are depicted as decadent, sexually flamboyant and evil in contrast to the noble Greeks."

Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:42 AM

CHRISISALL


"Sly" is the term.

Boy whore Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:50 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

Is this the punchline?

"Even some American reviewers noted the political overtones of the West-against-Iran story line — and the way Persians are depicted as decadent, sexually flamboyant and evil in contrast to the noble Greeks."



Yep. I've often thought that people who see political overtones in absolutely everything are pretty funny.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:53 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
You ARE making assumptions, aren't you. TSK TSK

What makes you think I 'constantly worry'? Do you have a problem projecting yourself onto others? Have you sought help for that delusional thinking?



Good Lord, Rue, can't we keep this crap in RWED? Geezer's just having a spot of fun is all.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:57 AM

RUE


Why do you keep posting in RWE? Can't you keep your crap out of it? No need to reply. Just having fun, is all.

Actually, my post was replying to Geezer's post:

"Does there really have to be a punchline? If no one else has to constantly worry about the arrival of a punchline and you do, do you have an obsession? Have you sought treatment for this punchline obsession?"

As I've mentioned before, I don't mind throwing it back.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 9:01 AM

CAUSAL


As a proud Swiss-German American, I can tell that your rhetoric is obviously an insult against the proud heritage of...erm...makers of chocolate and clocks! There will be worldwide protests over this outrage, infidel!

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:54 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Sorry, Casual.

I forgot that Rue doesn't hold with having the F-word

Select to view spoiler:


Fun

in RWED. We must be serious, very serious.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:05 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.



Quote:

Spartan marriage customs fascinated other Greeks, who knew so little about them anyway. ... In fact, in sexual matters, the Spartans, true to their conservative outlook in everything, seem to have had the highest rate of monogamy in all Greece. They undoubtably had a high respect for their women and regarded them as having a greater equality than the Oriental approach to be found in Ionia, Athens, or Corinth. Also, contrary to the attitude that might have been expected among a warrior caste, homosexuality seems to have been little known--quite unlike the Thebans in northern Greece who were to make a cult among their soldiers of coulples fighting side by side together, as in the infamous "Theban Band of Lovers."


From Thermopylae, by Ernle Bradford, Da Capo, 1980.



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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:08 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Sorry, Casual.

I forgot that Rue doesn't hold with having the F-word

Select to view spoiler:


Fun

in RWED. We must be serious, very serious.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Listen, next time you post something like this, you better put a "humor" warning on it. I do not enjoy shooting milk out my nose.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:39 PM

KHYRON


I find it pretty strange how in one thread Rue vehemently opposes Coulter for calling somebody a "faggot", and here she dismisses an entire culture as a bunch homosexuals who didn't know how to raise children.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:48 PM

CAUSAL


Mmmm...delicious irony...

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:56 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
I find it pretty strange how in one thread Rue vehemently opposes Coulter for calling somebody a "faggot", and here she dismisses an entire culture as a bunch homosexuals who didn't know how to raise children.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.



Well the facts seem to be in her favor - Spartans could marry at 20 but could not live with their families until after they left military service. Boys started military training as 6 or 7 year olds and babies that were deemed unfit or boys that didn't seem to fit the ideal of the warrior were left to die on the side of a mountain.

Sounds to me like a whole bunch of men living together in CLOSE proximity and ummmmm not real good parenting skills.


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FORSAKEN original


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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:59 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.



Quote:

Spartan marriage customs fascinated other Greeks, who knew so little about them anyway. ... In fact, in sexual matters, the Spartans, true to their conservative outlook in everything, seem to have had the highest rate of monogamy in all Greece. They undoubtably had a high respect for their women and regarded them as having a greater equality than the Oriental approach to be found in Ionia, Athens, or Corinth. Also, contrary to the attitude that might have been expected among a warrior caste, homosexuality seems to have been little known--quite unlike the Thebans in northern Greece who were to make a cult among their soldiers of coulples fighting side by side together, as in the infamous "Theban Band of Lovers."


From Thermopylae, by Ernle Bradford, Da Capo, 1980.



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Causal - Quoting Thermopylae does not help your postion - it even states that little is known about Spartan society. This person is making statements based on opinion not verifiable fact.


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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 1:06 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Causal - Quoting Thermopylae does not help your postion - it even states that little is known about Spartan society. This person is making statements based on opinion not verifiable fact.



Actually, please read the quote more carefully. It says the other Greeks knew very little about Spartan culture--not that little is known about them by anyone at all. In fact, there is a great deal of historical data available on Sparta and Spartan culture. I'm sure that Mr. Bradford, as an historian specializing on Mediterranean military history, would have known and used those sources, and because of that, I'm pretty sure that referencing his book exactly helps my position.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add: what historical sources has Rue offered? Seems that Rue is just making the assumption that military men living in barracks can't keep their hands off each other. At least I referenced the work of a scholar.

Re-edited to add: when did this thread go from funny to snarky? Oh, wait, we're in RWED, where people disagree with each on the basis of who the other person is, not the argument they're making. Maybe we should petition Haken to change the name of the forum to "Real World Ad Hominem."

Re-edited to add: it was fun while it lasted, Geezer. Next time, post this sort of thing in Talk Story!
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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 1:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


As a 2nd thought, I wonder if this gives the Hollywood elites any pause for concern. I mean, THEY are the ones the mullahs would behead first, if given half a chance.


Are they SURE they don't want to support the GOP?

I'm just sayin'.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:46 PM

RUE


Khyron,
Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
I find it pretty strange how in one thread Rue vehemently opposes Coulter for calling somebody a "faggot", and here she dismisses an entire culture as a bunch homosexuals who didn't know how to raise children.

Not really. The 'gay' thing is not my issue. I was hoping to prevent any shock on the part of people who view the Spartans as 'manly men' in the Western mold. And they weren't 'gay' in the modern Western sense either. Their culture was completely different from ours.
And you won't find 'gay', 'faggot', or any sexual perjorative term in my post. That's YOUR interpretation, probably based on your own homophobia. Oh, and ingnorance. Can't forget the ignorance, either.

The problem they had in their culture, as I indicated, was they didn't have that many children actually survive. They literally put 'imperfect' children out to die in large numbers. For the ones that weren't put out to die, their boys were raised in packs by older boys out in the wilds. At a young age, 3 or 4, they were put out in the mountains with, I believe, one cloak. Either those packs of boys found them or the other way around. They lived severely deprived lives in the hills with no shelter, food or clothing beyond what they could get for themselves. They were expected to be self-sufficient from then on, or die. (Though thieving was a lesson they were supposed to learn.) That's what caused their decline and was a key "Darwin Award" feature of their culture.

If they survived childhood they were put through severe physical tests. If they survived those they were admitted into male communal homes, where they lived the rest of their lives (with brief visits to the wife).

Just to reiterate what I said, since you seemed to have missed understanding the big words:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.


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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:40 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Just to reiterate what I said, since you seemed to have missed understanding the big words:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold...



Err, Rue. It was you who first referred to the Spartans as "Uber-men in the heroic western mold". The rest of us were just making fun of the Iranians. BTW, I got no problem with gay men being heroic. Why do you?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:46 PM

JASONZZZ


The problem is that your particular phrasing misleads the reader into the understanding that your "aversion" to homosexuality leads to the conclusion that you believe they shouldn't be cast as archetype for "proud warriors" and rather in fact you are glad they no longer exist as part of the human race.

I am not sure if further padding (or perhaps some needed "back-paddling" on your part) your response leads me to think otherwise. Your description of those selected parts of their culture sounds on the level to what I remember, but I am not sure how judging them with today's standards of morality and any other ruler deserves them to be cast out of the human gene pool.

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

Just to reiterate what I said, since you seemed to have missed understanding the big words:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.




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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:07 PM

RUE


Slick,

B/c the Iranians were made into the 'bad guys' by casting them as effeminate and debauched. And the Spartans, the 'goods guys', were by contrast cast into the prototype heroic western mold. Which historically they don't fit.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:14 PM

RUE


"The problem is that your particular phrasing misleads the reader into the understanding that your "aversion" to homosexuality leads to the conclusion that you believe they shouldn't be cast as archetype for "proud warriors" and rather in fact you are glad they no longer exist as part of the human race."

Hunh??? No misleading. I said exactly what I meant. You just need to R-E-A-D _ T-H-E _ W-O-R-D-S I wrote.

"I am not sure if further padding (or perhaps some needed "back-paddling" on your part) your response leads me to think otherwise. Your description of those selected parts of their culture sounds on the level to what I remember, but I am not sure how judging them with today's standards of morality and any other ruler deserves them to be cast out of the human gene pool."

I didn't add or subtract anything from my first post when I quoted it. No padding or back-paddling at all. You just need to read my words literally.

And, btw, evolution's tool is transmitting on your charcteristics to the next generation ad infinitum. The culture that literally dies out has failed in the most basic way possible. That's not a moral judgement.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:19 PM

CAUSAL


You know, I'd love to see some research. I've done a bit, and some of what you're saying is close to being right, but none of it is exactly right. For instance: yes, city elders examined infants and discarded small and deformed ones. But your term "in large numbers" is ambiguous--large numbers in comparison to what? And is that large numbers in a year? A month? Over the course of their civilization? At any rate, they lasted as a dominant power for about three hundred years (roughly from 630 BCE to around 300 BCE), so their program of abandoning infants didn't deplete their numbers as seriously as you're making out. In addition, Bradford (same book as before) describes boys being taken from their mothers at seven or eight to begin their military training (suggesting that they didn't roam in wild packs of boys up to that point). And a Spartan man was in active military service (and hence in the barracks) from twenty to thirty, at which he became essential a reserve soldier and could leave the barracks to live with his family.

Now, here's the difference: I've done my research; I can reference scholars who've written on the subject. You, on the other hand, are getting mad on behalf of Iran (odd choice, but hey, it's yours to make) because you feel that the movie has some cultural/political overtones that even the director has said he didn't intend. So to discredit the movie, you're throwing out bold assertions about Spartan life and culture--but it seems obvious that you haven't really done any research on the subject at all. If all you really want to do is insult Geezer, whose intention, I believe, was to provide a moment of levity, then carry on (though I think it's safe to say most of us wish you wouldn't). But if, on the other hand, you're going to try to speak authoritatively about historical matters, you're going to have to do one hell of a lot better in your scholarship and your argumentation than you've done up to this point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add: they never died out the way you seem to think so. Check a map: there's still an inhabited city of Sparta to this day. What they did do was lose influence in Greece and so declined from their former position of dominance (like all great powers must).

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:29 PM

RUE


Causal,

Here is some information gleaned from the internet. (It is the most easily posted.) I was actually accurate with nearly all of it.

-----------------

http://www.pbs.org/empires/thegreeks/educational/lesson1.html

Social Structure of Sparta:
Three classes: Spartiates (military professionals who lived mostly in barracks and whose land was farmed by serfs; they served in the army and could vote).

Perioeci or "neighbors/outsiders" who were freemen; they included artisans, craftsmen, merchants; they could not vote or serve in the army; foreigners could be in this class.

Helots (serfs descended from those peoples who had resisted subjugation by Sparta and who were constantly rebelling. They were treated like slaves and gave 1/2 of their produce to the Spartiate citizens who owned the land.)

Boys: Boys were taken from parents at age seven and trained in the art of warfare. They were only give a cloak - no shoes or other clothes, and not enough food so they had to steal (to learn survival skills). At age 20 they were placed into higher ranks of the military. To age 30 they were dedicated to the state; then they could marry but still lived in barracks with other soldiers.

The men lived most of their lives in military barracks.

---------------------

I got the age wrong where they were set out into the hills, but the rest right.

As to 'how many' children were set out to die from exposure, it was enough that the particular cliff has the bones of thousands of infacts at its bottom. (I'll have to find the source for that.)

-------------------

I didn't just post cause of Slick, I had and have sources of information as well. Now your sources and my sources may not say the same thing. But my posts are, as usual, researched and fact-based. And my sources are credible.


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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:45 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Boys: Boys were taken from parents at age seven and trained in the art of warfare. They were only give a cloak - no shoes or other clothes, and not enough food so they had to steal (to learn survival skills).



It sounds like you're confusing two separate things. The military training all Spartan male children received was given in the agoge. They were trained from the age of 7 or 8 until about the late teens. The conditions were harsh, but not brutal. They did have to scrounge for food, but not because they weren't given any at all, just not enough. During this period they lived with the other trainees--not in comfort, for sure, but also not on the streets or in the wilderness.

The other thing that you seem to describe is called the crypteia. But it wasn't as barbarous as you're describing. Participation in the crypteia was limited to the most promising young trainees, those who had leadership potential. They were sent out into the countryside basically to fend for themselves, but also to keep an eye on the helots (in typically Spartan brutal way) who the Spartiates worried might be prone to insurrection if they weren't controlled.

Quote:

At age 20 they were placed into higher ranks of the military. To age 30 they were dedicated to the state; then they could marry but still lived in barracks with other soldiers.

The men lived most of their lives in military barracks.



Actually, because the Spartans didn't expand their population through colonial expansion, as did the other Greek poleis, the Spartans took marriage very seriously. They were expected to marry immediately after the crypteia period, which would put them in their late teens or early twenties. Spartan culture placed such a high premium on reproduction (which was strictly limited to married couples) that unmarried men were shunned during public ceremonies, and, in some case, not allowed to take part at all. In addition, while it is true that Spartan men were "dedicated to the state" for a period, it only lasted 10 years: from a man's twenties to his thirties. During this period he lived in the barracks, not with his family. After the age of thirty, a Spartan man was still expected to be available for military service (though in a "reserve" capacity) and so was free to live with his family, rather than in barracks.

Quote:

As to 'how many' children were set out to die fromn exposure, it was enough that the particular cliff has the bones of thousands of infacts at its bottom. (I'll have to find the source for that.)



That sounds like something you might have picked up from the movie (which was, obviously, not a accurate depiction of the reality of the situation). In any event, I'm sure predators and scavengers made off with the remains long before there was a chance for the bones of "thousands of infants" to collect. That's dramatic and everything, but I'm not convinced that it's the case.

Quote:


I didn't just post cause of Slick



I wish you would give him the courtesy of calling him by his name, instead of this demeaning nickname (that no one else bothers to use, anyway). Calling him “Slick” just isn't very nice, and it doesn’t seem to promote open dialogue, nor a friendly atmosphere on these boards.

Quote:

I had and have sources of information as well. Now your sources and my sources may not say the same thing. But my posts are, as usual, researched and fact-based. And my sources are credible.



Well, no question, historians disagree about what’s actually the case over their interpretation of the evidence. But my trouble isn’t so much that you have different sources than me. My trouble is that you seem to post without doing very much research first. This can lead to basic factual errors that could have been avoided given proper antecedent research.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:49 PM

RUE


Hey Causal,

I have to get on with life. So I'll check back tomorrow for your post.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:26 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:


I didn't just post cause of Slick



I wish you would give him the courtesy of calling him by his name, instead of this demeaning nickname (that no one else bothers to use, anyway). Calling him “Slick” just isn't very nice, and it doesn’t seem to promote open dialogue, nor a friendly atmosphere on these boards.


Actually, I appreciate the nickname Slick. Geezer is a master at moving the topic to exactly where he wants it to be. It's pretty impressive. I remember long ago discussions where I've gone back and forth with Geezer and realized he'd manuevered me all over the map and I was so busy playing catch-up that I never did get to make that point I wanted to make. Slick works.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:27 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Re-edited to add: when did this thread go from funny to snarky? Oh, wait, we're in RWED, where people disagree with each on the basis of who the other person is, not the argument they're making. Maybe we should petition Haken to change the name of the forum to "Real World Ad Hominem."

Rue is one of those types that can’t find anything funny unless it involves some derogatory comment about Bush.

Frankly, I was enjoying Geezer’s witty remarks. I was actually thinking of joining in the fun. Something scathing about how Alexander conquered the entire Persian Empire and some in less then ten years, while the Persians spent 150 years getting their collective butts kicked out of Greece on successive invasions. But then it occurred to me that the Spartans actually weren’t involved in that particularly Greek exploit. And the mood seems to have passed anyway.

Spartans were not big players in the homoerotic camp like many other Greeks, but most Greeks didn’t accept it nearly as much as some people today want to believe. There was no wide consensus among classical Greek City-states. In some cities it was acceptable, but in others it was not. And you have to draw a distinction between homosexuality and homoeroticism. Homosexuality was not widely accepted in the classical Greco-Roman world at all. Homoeroticism, on the other hand was acceptable in certain places. Probably not Sparta as much as other Greek cities. However, this was almost universally limited to pederasty, not sex between adults, which was far more likely to be viewed contemptuously by most Greek societies, even those that were open to the idea of sexual pederasty. So homoeroticism between soldiers of the same age was probably not generally considered acceptable by Greek, particularly Lakodaemon, societies. It seems clear to me that it happened, but I’m sure that it happens in modern militaries as well. Contemporary references by Xenophon explicitly denying it occurred, says to me that it wasn’t acceptable regardless of whether it was happening or not. Now it may have been more common among Spartan soldiers then among modern US infantry today (it’s hard to quantify that) but to attempt to elevate that to a homosexual tendency defining the Spartan military society is a gross misunderstanding of the Lakodaemon culture and Greek culture in general, and probably says more about the desires of certain modern social political ideas then ancient Spartan/Lakodaemon military culture.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:34 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Sorry. I misread the title. I thought somebody was giving away free condoms.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 9:41 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
And you won't find 'gay', 'faggot', or any sexual perjorative term in my post.

Of course not, I wasn't implying that there was, just pointing out what seems to be a double-standard on your part. I quoted the word "faggot" not because you said it, but because Coulter said it and I didn't want to leave it unquoted because then it would seem like I was saying it.
Quote:

That's YOUR interpretation, probably based on your own homophobia. Oh, and ingnorance. Can't forget the ignorance, either.
Yes, I disagree with what you said, therefore I must be a homophobic ignorant fool. Very good, glad we established that.
Quote:

Just to reiterate what I said, since you seemed to have missed understanding the big words:
I do tend to struggle with those big two- and three-syllable words you use, but I promise to concentrate this time.
Quote:

Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.
Boy, that sure gave me a headache. That last sentence alone made me grab the dictionary six times! But did I get your drift this time?

Clearly homosexuality wasn't as frowned upon back in those days as it is in contemprary society and for that reason it was probably more common, but what you said, and especially the way you said it, sounds like something PN would say. It's intentionally divisive and not backed up by anything I've ever read on the topic.

As for weeding out the weakest, it's an example of artificial selection. We do the same with domesticated animals all the time and it seems to work - it's not nice when applied in human societies, but, speaking objectively, a society should become stronger because of it. Unless they got rid of almost all of the next generation, which seems very unlikely.

Regarding the thousands of infant skeletons thing, if that's true, the Spartans were around for centuries, so that number may be high in absolute terms but definitely not high enough to justify saying they eradicated themselves. Spartans liked warfare, and in a lot of wars thousands of people can get killed in a day, yet you don't argue along these lines, you'd rather use an emotionally manipulative argument for their demise such as 'baby-killers' than one that would make slightly more sense.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:43 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Actually, I appreciate the nickname Slick. Geezer is a master at moving the topic to exactly where he wants it to be.



Sort of like in this thread, where everyone was having good clean fun ragging on the Iranians until I came in and got all snarky about the Spartans. No. Wait. That was Rue.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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