Buffy-- Sci-fi or Fantasy? by NoVaGrAsS

Definitly Action-fantasy.
Raising people from the dead using magic is not science fiction.

Raising old threads from the dead, well, that's another matter.

Prospecting Chrisisall

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Monday, August 15, 2005 4:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NoVaGrAsS:
I've been pondering this lately... does Buffy count as science fiction? Something tells me that a sci-fi classification is stretching it a bit. With the exception of season 4's initiative... and Ted the robot, April the robot, and the Buffy-bot... is there really anything that would say classify it as science fiction? It seems to me more fantasy/horror.

A thought: Could Buffy transcend genre classifications? Does it incorporate the elements of so many genres (horror, comedy, drama, soap opera, fantasy, science fiction, action, etc...) that it becomes a new genre unto itself? If so... what should it be called?

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

"Blood just kept pouring out of them, you'd slip in it half the time, find out bloodbath is not just a figure of speech."
-Zoe; Firefly, "Serenity" Shooting Script.

It blends like no one has ever done before.

NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Monday, August 15, 2005 9:59 PM

At first it was easy to say Horror, but it quickly beame more Fantasy than Horror. Demons, spells, dimensions, portals--that kind of thing. Most of time I was was not pleased with the forays into science fiction. I enjoyed the Buffybot and could accept Ted. But I thought it got out of hand with Warren's inventions. It just felt like that stuff didn't belong in BUFFY.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:05 AM

Having a robot in the show doesn't make it sci-fi. Considering it was set in the present day, it only strengthens the case for considering Buffy a fantasy.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 2:22 AM

The show hit every genre one could think of. It left no stone unturned.....well maybe Western.

NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:28 AM

EMMA

By their nature sci-fi and fantasy transcend boundaries in ways other genres rarely do. To add horror, comedy or anything else is often unnecessary unless of course it is designed to be a crossover such as Red Dwarf (sci-fi comedy) or even our own Firefly (Sci-fi Western).

Personally I always go by the definition that if it is plausible it is sci-fi but if it is implausible then it is fantasy. This would make Buffy fantasy but Firefly (Star Wars, Babylon 5 etc) sci-fi. The problem with this, before I get shouted down, is that what one person defines as plausible another won't. Maybe Haken is right with speculative fiction - covers all areas.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:48 AM

Dietcoke: Western, Film Noir, Swashbuckler, Buddy Cop, Murder Mystery, and Gangster were the ones that I could think up that BUFFY didn't hit on. With some of those it's a matter of how you define those genres. But definitely not Western.
Or Mexican Wrestling. Unless you want to throw ANGEL into it. Then you couldn't rule out Mexican Wrestling.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Dietcoke: Western, Film Noir, Swashbuckler, Buddy Cop, Murder Mystery, and Gangster were the ones that I could think up that BUFFY didn't hit on. With some of those it's a matter of how you define those genres. But definitely not Western.
Or Mexican Wrestling. Unless you want to throw ANGEL into it. Then you couldn't rule out Mexican Wrestling.

But we did have a lot of mystery. Who is the big bad, what is the "key?"

NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:03 AM

Grounded: Robots (Androids really, when you look at Ted, April, and the Buffybot) don't mean it's not Science Fiction? Please explain.

Dietcoke: Western, Film Noir, Swashbuckler, Buddy Cop, Murder Mystery, and Gangster were the ones that I could think up that BUFFY didn't hit on. With some of those it's a matter of how you define those genres.

Emma: I've often felt Science Fiction was actually undefinable. Then about a year ago, in another thread, Zoid gave about as good a definition as you can get. Maybe it's archived.
Or maybe he'll chime in on this thread.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:12 AM

Well we had things that were mysterious from time to time, but not Whodunnits in the Agatha Chistie sense.

Probably not War, either. But I bet that one's arguable.

There weren't any examples of the German Mountain film, either : ) But let's not get ridiculous.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:54 AM

Oh, yes we did have a war. An epic one. Potentials vs. The original evils grand finale season 7! That was one big, bloody battle.

Okay, but we didn't have a prison show influence. ;)

NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:23 AM

Yeah, it was a battle, but it looked more like a battle out of LOTR than out of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005 5:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Yeah, it was a battle, but it looked more like a battle out of LOTR than out of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.

I thought of LOTR when I saw it too! :)

NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Friday, August 19, 2005 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Grounded: Robots (Androids really, when you look at Ted, April, and the Buffybot) don't mean it's not Science Fiction? Please explain.

What are you asking me to explain?

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Friday, August 19, 2005 2:02 PM

In my "please explain" response my grammer was off.

I described Ted, the Buffybot, the Aprilbot, and some of Warren's inventions such as the freeze ray gun and the inviso-ray gun as forays into science fiction territory.

You said that having a robot in the show didn't make it Sci-Fi.

I took that to mean that you were saying robots weren't an element of science fiction.

So I was asking you to explain why robots weren't an element of science fiction.

But maybe I was misinterpreting your statement.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 12:01 AM

Ah I see. The reason I would say none of those things qualifies as science fiction in the context of Buffy is that none of them are given reasonable explanations for their inclusion. The whole 'Warren is a genius therefore he can build an exact robotic copy of Buffy' thing doesn't fly as an explanation in my book, especially since there are plenty of geniuses going around these days and not a lot of robotic replicas ;)

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 6:13 AM

The "Warren is a genius explanation" didn't fly in my book either, which is why I was uncomfortable with the abilities they gave him.

I didn't get my nose out of joint about Ted because it was a stand-alone. It was nice to see John Ritter and he was perfect for the role. But still, I remember thinking that I wish they hadn't used robots.

The Aprilbot episode was a also a stand-alone, and it was three years since the last robot, so again, I could deal. The Aprilbot also served a greater purpose in terms of the story and it was poignant when she "died", so I was able to roll with it.

The Buffybot provided a lot of humor and its use as a decoy at the end season 5 was effective. And since the series was so good overall, I could put my concerns about the inclusion of psuedo-science on the back-burner.

Then came season 6. As a character the Buffybot was entertaining and it was also poignant when Dawn curled up next to it (although a little creepy). In spite of the fact that it was a robot, it was disturbing to watch it be ripped apart. That and its final moments, got an emotional respone from me.

In spite of that, I felt the friendly folks at ME were had overused the Buffybot and my concerns moved from the back-burner to the front. Then came freeze ray guns and inviso-ray guns and other gizmos and for me, their use of psuedo-sience crossed the line. IMO they were now violating the "tone" of BUFFY. And it pissed me off.

You feel that because of their implausibility, Warren's inventions can't be Science Fiction, therefore they have to be Fantasy in order for them to work as part of BUFFY.

Please correct me it that above sentence doesn't reflect your point of view. I don't want to put words in your mouth or presume I know how you think.

Whereas I see robots, and freeze guns, and inviso-rays, as such firmly established tropes of Science Fiction (going as far back as Hugo Gernsback and "Amazing Stories") that for me they do qualify as Science Fiction and therefore don't belong in BUFFY.

So it seems you have found an explanation for the inclusion of these tropes where you can accept them, whereas I can't. So you call it Fantasy, but I call it (primarily in Season 6) a major f***-up.

I hope I didn't come off as saying "I'm right and you're wrong". And again, please correct me if I have misinterpreted your meaning.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 7:01 AM

No, I agree with you - they violated the tone with those things. The saw thing that comes out of the door and attacks Buffy? Joke.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 7:57 AM

Although as a whole I really liked season 4, I could see the 'tone' begin to change from the first 3 seasons. Big stunts and James Bond gadgetry was beginning to be used, and Adam was a psudo-scientific pill to swallow, himself, not to mention Spike's chip.

Tone matters Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:18 AM

The chip was a decent idea, but it was dragged out for too long. And if it's the idea of the chip itself that offended certain people, they could achieved the same effect in a number of other ways.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:53 AM

The chip itself was okay, it's just cumulative, y'know, Adam, chip, Initiative, like there's one Big Bad, there should be one unbelievable science thingy...

Story editor Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 9:30 AM

Grounded, I agree about the buzzsaw thing. But at least buzzsaws actually exist.

But I'm confused.

Do we agree that Warren's creations were a violation of tone?

Yes.

Do we agree that the violation was the robots, the freeze ray, and the inviso-ray (and some other things).

Yes.

Do we agree that robots, freeze rays, and inviso-rays are tropes of Science Fiction?

Maybe not, but I think we do.

So I'm wondering:

Why does the fact that "none of these things are given reasonable explanations for their inclusion" mean they don't qualify as Science Fiction even in the context of Buffy?

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 9:39 AM

Science fiction is fiction based on science; the science in Buffy's world is not sufficiently advanced to produce the bots and guns and no other reasonable explanation for their existence is aluded to (lightning hit me in the head, making me a super-genius for a day), hence they come from the realm of fantasy.

At least, that's my take Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 10:38 AM

Chrisisall:

I've been pondering why I think Warrencrap was a violation of tone and The Initiative wasn't. Until reading your post it had never occurred to me that the Initiative could be a violation of tone.

Why was that?

I guess it's because the Initiative had the financial backing of the U.S. government, so I could accept its existence. Warren was just one guy.

More importantly, I felt the creation of the Initiative served the theme, the stories, and the characters well.

Also the Initiative was a failure almost all the time. They helped Buffy out a bit but when it came to handling the supernatural menace, they couldn't compete with Mr. Pointy. So I guess I never felt the Initiative violated tone because it wasn't working. The only thing they got right was Spike's chip. While the creation of Adam in and of itself was a success, it was ultimately a failure. And Adam and his creation connoted the Frankenstein Monster so much that it didn't feel out of place for me.

Bond gadgetry? They had what essentially were Taser Guns. Not so implausible, they may even exist for all I know. Can't really think of anything else that could be Bond-like gadgetry.

The chip was plausible enough. We have microchips now. It's concievable that in the not too distant future they'll be able to put them in our heads.

So I guess stuff like is why I never felt S4 was a violation of tone. I will however admit that out of seasons 1-5, 4 had the weakest arc and the weakest big bad.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 10:59 AM

Chris, I responded to your remarks about season 4 before I read your response to my response to Grounded.

I don't believe the Warrencrap (the Season 6 Warrencrap) MUST come from the realm of Fantasy. I believe it comes from the realm of bad writing.

We are also getting into the territory of the Definition of Science Fiction.

As I said earlier in this thread, I don't believe Science Fiction has been adequately defined but Zoid did about as good a job as any I've seen.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 11:28 AM

I actually felt that the Initiative was a good idea that was questionably executed. The archetecture of the sub/extra governmental agency seemed off-the-cuff, as if it wasn't gonna be around long enough to bother. The hearing at it's end was an excellent 'smooth over', more of that connection to real government earlier would have helped it's credibility wih me. And Adam was a visual mess. Good from a horror POV, but on the sci-fi side, he appeared a little hokey.
I just felt that if they were gonna open it up to being that big, it's tone should've remained dark and under (more) cover. It played more like a comic book the way it was handled, not the action-fantasy-horror S1-3 felt like, or the more X-Files-like twisted stuff it coulda been.
(And by Bond gadgets, I mean underground instalations (RIGHT under S.U.!?!?), hidden sliding door entrances, MRI and Retinal scan ID checkpoints, etc.)

So it's not so much that S4 violated tone; you could just see that actual violations were in the offing.

Not that I didn't like it Chrisisall

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Monday, August 22, 2005 12:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Do we agree that robots, freeze rays, and inviso-rays are tropes of Science Fiction?

Maybe not, but I think we do.

They're tropes of 'soft' science fiction, since they seem on the surface to be science-related, but actually have sod all to do with it. Do you believe someone in the far, far, super-advanced future could make an invisibility ray? In the context of the show, if they actually felt it necessary to have such a ray, all they had to do was tie it in to magic.

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
So I'm wondering:

Why does the fact that "none of these things are given reasonable explanations for their inclusion" mean they don't qualify as Science Fiction even in the context of Buffy?

Because (in places) they're used purely as maguffins. You could make an argument for I Was Made To Love You being a bit sci-fi, but looking back it looks to me to be in there purely to introduce Warren and therefore allow the Buffybot.

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Monday, August 22, 2005 5:09 AM

Does "soft" Science Fiction (even though it has sod all do with science) qualify as Science Fiction?

And since you said "sod all", should I assume you're British or did you just pick it up from Spike?

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Monday, August 22, 2005 5:49 AM

WOAINESERENITY

I would say that Warren was an element of science fiction...in a way that the Initiative is not. I think they wanted to give him super powers in a non-occult sort of way, thus the robots. They already had warlocks witches wizards and vamps, along with assorted demons, and I think Warren was the evil genius addition.

I think it would have been better sans robots, since evil geniuses could use sharks with laser beams (or something else, obviously), but then, I didn't write the show.

I would personally classify buffy as horror genre, although there were other elements at times. It is not Sci-fi. It is not really fantasy. It has folkloric elements that make it horror, as Werewolves and vampires and slayers and witches and all the rest certainly are. Fantasy sometimes uses these elements as well, but horror taps into things that make us afraid...things that are written into our cultural consciousness. Things that go bump in the night. Yes, it was funny. Yes, it was well characterized.

That would be my 2 er 25 cents....
LB

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Monday, August 22, 2005 7:30 AM