Spike at the end of Season 6 by Zeek

This is my take, and mine alone:
Becoming a vamp means your soul goes on like, hold- shelved, as it were. What's left is a bit of personality (Which is mainly a corporeal thing), and a body run buy a part of the soul of all demons. Sort of an evil automatic pilot.

Spike, being frustrated by the chip limiting his bad and Buffy considering him a thing, goes to get his soul initially to prove to Buffy that he's him- soul or not. I believe it was his intention to get his soul back, and then confront Buffy with something like: "Like my soul, bitch? Am I still a 'thing'? I was born bad, luv."
See, the soul-less part doesn't even know how good he could be, but his desire for recognition from Buffy trancends the vampire in him- reaches back to William- and in essence, he betrays himself.
The monster that was Spike lost it's hold...due to love.

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is my take, and mine alone:
Becoming a vamp means your soul goes on like, hold- shelved, as it were. What's left is a bit of personality (Which is mainly a corporeal thing), and a body run buy a part of the soul of all demons. Sort of an evil automatic pilot.

I think you're right with this. when angel got his soul back (each time) he remembered what had gone on while he wasn't in control, and conversely angelus talked about having to be there while angel ate rats and rescued puppies...

Quote:
I believe it was his intention to get his soul back, and then confront Buffy with something like: "Like my soul, bitch? Am I still a 'thing'? I was born bad, luv."

not so sure about this, I don't think he did believe he was born bad, he knew it was a front, he knew he was lying when he said that in fool for love, because then his flashback, his true recollection, showed him as being a wuss. if he thought he was the same he would have had a more romanticised memory of what he was like when he was human, I reckon...

Quote:

See, the soul-less part doesn't even know how good he could be, but his desire for recognition from Buffy trancends the vampire in him- reaches back to William- and in essence, he betrays himself.
The monster that was Spike lost it's hold...due to love.

yeah, can't argue with this part, but I think it was an unconscious betrayal, like zeek said, I don't think he realised that what he wanted was to be 'worthy' of her, I do believe he thought he wanted the chip gone so he could kill her.

but it's all very closely bound, chip/soul love/hate kill/shag, you can see why he'd be confused

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by charliethebloody:

I don't think he did believe he was born bad, he knew it was a front, he knew he was lying when he said that in fool for love, because then his flashback, his true recollection, showed him as being a wuss.

Here's where we get all over-analyze-y

In FFL, I think he meant it, and that we were not seeing a flahback of his, but a narrative flashback to juxtapose his 'demon take' on his past with the real thing.
And even if he does remember it correctly he might be considering that he (Spike) was born when Dru bit him, which would be 'born bad'.
But Spike is such a 'now' dude, it doesn't matter either way, truth is but one tool in his manipulation games.

Dizzy now Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:20 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I just don't buy that Spike is trying to get his soul back. I mean the whole time he's calling Buffy a bitch and talking about the chip and how it's making him act wrong.

The writers all say it was misdirection and that's what Spike was really after, but I just don't buy it. Not with the dialog that Spike delivers.

you have to listen more closely to what Spike actually says and not how angry he sounds:
he doesn't need his chip out if what Buffy 'deserved' was getting punched, because he could already do that with the chip ...
No, he knew that what Buffy deserved was a good man, a man with a soul,
and getting the chip out wouldn't help ...
he went in search of his soul.

The writers were trying to mislead us so we would be surprised when Spike had his soul restored,
it was 'bait and switch'... where they set us up to expect one thing and then they give us something completely different.
Actually it is what Joss always loves to do,
but I'm surprised and thrilled every time.

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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Here's where we get all over-analyze-y

nowt wrong with that specially when it comes to spike...

Quote:

In FFL, I think he meant it, and that we were not seeing a flahback of his, but a narrative flashback to juxtapose his 'demon take' on his past with the real thing.
And even if he does remember it correctly he might be considering that he (Spike) was born when Dru bit him, which would be 'born bad'.
But Spike is such a 'now' dude, it doesn't matter either way, truth is but one tool in his manipulation games.

Dizzy now Chrisisall

I'm not convinced, I haven't watched it for a while so I may be a bit vague and missing things, but think of the nikki flashback, the way he dips in and out of it play fighting buffy and then actually speaks to her in the flashback, that's coming from him not an outside narrator. don't know how that squares with the first one though, because I'm sure he wouldn't tell buffy what we actually see (him being a bit pathetic).

ok this is wanky speculation but I see it as a sort of build up of truth, in the first story he's not being honest, he's telling her a different version to what we see, and she's bored by it.

in the second one it's closer, the story about the chinese slayer is told with no frills and a fairly surfacey "lesson" that the slayer must reach for her weapon. that's kind of obvious and not very helpful. I reckon the way it's shown is how it happened and he's opening up to her more (the one good day bit, "you got off on it").

in the new york story though he gets to the emotional truth, it's shown very differently to the others, as I said before with the blurring of the past and present, there's a greater depth of honesty which allows him to literally speak out of the past to her.

what was I talking about? I can't remember...

anyway, as a coda, in lies my parents told me, even after dru had killed him he was still a complete mummy's boy... his being bad wasn't just down to being a vampire, it was a lot to do with having to deal with the shit he got from his mother. and when he finally did[/d] resolve it, it allowed him to strike a balance between his good and bad sides in a way that the soul and the chip and love and whatever else didn't.

how's that for over analytical? I apologise, I completely lost my point somewhere along the way there...

I think it was something along the lines of: "spike is cool"

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:06 AM

CLEMENTINE

Declaration of bias: I love Spike. I'm not saying that is the only viewpoint I just want to make sure that you take that into consideration as you read my views. I know it can get you flamed in the wrong thread.

People get confused because Angel/Angelus is an obvious distinction but demon-Spike/souled-Spike is pretty much the same. Spike did miss being the big bad and he did want the chip out so that he could resume killing people, etc. He's a demon.

But Spike is a fool for love and love's bitch and it trumps all other desires. He is Buffy's willing slave. He was totally freaked by how close he came to "hurting the girl". He went off to get his soul back so he wouldn't do that any more and so he could be what Buffy deserved...a man.

Plus, watch the special feature of the AFI panel on the Season 6 discs. Hi-larious! Joss explains that the misdirection about Spike going to get the chip out was intentional and "a little thing of my own devising called a 'plot twist'."
_______________________________________

I love Spike.

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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Clementine:
He was totally freaked by how close he came to "hurting the girl". He went off to get his soul back so he wouldn't do that any more and so he could be what Buffy deserved...a man.

Okay, now that I'm replaying the almost-rape in my head, I agree...it was the angry tone in the word 'deserves' that mis-directed me...

Joss, you devil, you!!

Chrisisall, another fool for love

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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by charliethebloody:

in the new york story though he gets to the emotional truth, it's shown very differently to the others, as I said before with the blurring of the past and present, there's a greater depth of honesty which allows him to literally speak out of the past to her.

Great analysis of a brilliant (maybe the most brilliant) episode. Thanks, C.

Cisall

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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:49 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
The writers were trying to mislead us so we would be surprised when Spike had his soul restored,
it was 'bait and switch'... where they set us up to expect one thing and then they give us something completely different.
Actually it is what Joss always loves to do,
but I'm surprised and thrilled every time.

See that's what I can't buy really. I always felt like the trick was played on Spike, but then I heard the commentaries and read interviews and it's supposedly that they were playing the trick on us. If so then I'd have to call it bad writing. Which is just something I don't really associate with Buffy.

If the trick is really on us and Spike knows what he's after, then he's way out of character the whole time. He's not showing any signs of feeling regret. He's not showing any feelings of love toward Buffy. He's calling her a bitch and complaining about the chip.

It's still a plot twist if Spike is expecting to get rid of his chip and gets a soul instead.

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Friday, July 27, 2007 12:12 PM

Quote:
Plus what kind of demon fights to destroy itself? That just doesn't make any sense. I mean when you become a vamp a demon takes over right? So, why would that demon want to be kicked out by the return of a soul? Doesn't make any kind of sense.

... Yeah I see what you're saying.

The contrary thing about the whole 'Spike wanting his soul is that; in order to want it in the first place you would NEED a soul. I never bought into the fact that Spike felt regret over the near rape of Buffy. I mean he is a Vampire. They aren't supposed to feel any of this in the first place. Where does this feeling come from if he has no soul to start with? It doesn't make sense.

However lets say for arguments sake he does feel remorse and is genuinely sorry and that his love for Buffy is THAT strong, so strong that it overrides the accepted rules of being a Vampire. Why then would he need his soul? He pretty much had all the attributes anyhow...

I think the 'misdirection' in the heads of the writers seemed like a big deal, but in all honesty I didn't feel it, I think it missed the mark, and it made little difference to Spike later on.

www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 2:12 PM

WYTCHCROFT

i love the whole spike redemption arc through B7 and A5 but the 'soul' aspect is not handled well in B6 (ie never bloody mentioned till the end 3 writers in search of a climax!)

i think the writers kinda miscommunicated with one another here as Spike's vocal tone is uneven 'Bitch' is meant to (and does) alienate the viewer yet the narrative and arc call for sympathy - i love and hate the whole 'rape' issue thing with equal and ambivalent measure and my views change everytime i watch. mayve that was good writing after all.

Still Spike is back from Lies through all of A5 and thats what counts!

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 7:37 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I never bought into the fact that Spike felt regret over the near rape of Buffy. I mean he is a Vampire. They aren't supposed to feel any of this in the first place. Where does this feeling come from if he has no soul to start with? It doesn't make sense.

actually it makes perfect sense, Spike's entire motivation for absolutely everything he does throughout Season 5 AND season 6 was to win Buffy's love....
it had nothing to do w/wanting to be good,
it had nothing to do w/being a big bad vampire,
it was all about getting the girl.

His regret w/the attempted rape was that he could see that he had lost every speck of trust Buffy had previously given to him....

If he wanted her (and I think that this was ALL he wanted) then he had to find a way in,
and he was angry and motivated and frustrated...
but he knew that it was all about the soul.

Of course after he got the soul everything changed for him, that is when he started looking at the world differently, that is when he worried he wasn't going to be able to over come the evil he had done in the past.

Not that he would brood about it like Angel did, because he was just never a brooding kind of guy.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 7:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I never bought into the fact that Spike felt regret over the near rape of Buffy. I mean he is a Vampire. They aren't supposed to feel any of this in the first place.

Som, he DIDN'T regret it, but he knew he should! He knew he'd never have Buffy without REAL feelings, and for that he needed a soul. The shadow of William was enough to push him to do it. He was tormented without love. And there was only one way to truly love again....

Methinks your non-love of the character colours you opinion....

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 7:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

If he wanted her (and I think that this was ALL he wanted) then he had to find a way in,
and he was angry and motivated and frustrated...
but he knew that it was all about the soul.

Of course after he got the soul everything changed for him, that is when he started looking at the world differently, that is when he worried he wasn't going to be able to over come the evil he had done in the past.

Right on Embers!

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I never bought into the fact that Spike felt regret over the near rape of Buffy. I mean he is a Vampire. They aren't supposed to feel any of this in the first place. Where does this feeling come from if he has no soul to start with? It doesn't make sense.

actually it makes perfect sense, Spike's entire motivation for absolutely everything he does throughout Season 5 AND season 6 was to win Buffy's love....
it had nothing to do w/wanting to be good,
it had nothing to do w/being a big bad vampire,
it was all about getting the girl.

His regret w/the attempted rape was that he could see that he had lost every speck of trust Buffy had previously given to him....

If he wanted her (and I think that this was ALL he wanted) then he had to find a way in,
and he was angry and motivated and frustrated...
but he knew that it was all about the soul.

Of course after he got the soul everything changed for him, that is when he started looking at the world differently, that is when he worried he wasn't going to be able to over come the evil he had done in the past.

Not that he would brood about it like Angel did, because he was just never a brooding kind of guy.

Well not entirely.

Spike was taking care of Dawn at the seasons beginning and at that stage Buffy was dead. So I stress again. Spike was doing good irrespective of 'reward' if you will from Buffy.

As for the attempted rape of Buffy and losing her trust... Well maybe. But he and Buffy had been doing the beast with two backs before this. He wanted Buffy to want him, to love him. He clearly had non vamp sentiments. Their rather awkward relationship had given Spike hope that she could possibly do this [love him] and that hope again I say is contrary to vampires... Indeed it's in line with already possessing soul type qualities.

Its just my thoughts as I muse all these years later.

www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 11:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Their rather awkward relationship had given Spike hope that she could possibly do this [love him] and that hope again I say is contrary to vampires... Indeed it's in line with already possessing soul type qualities.

Yes, Spike was unique. Hope seeped in where it could not/would not in other vampires. He retained a nebulous, imperfect connection to his soul after all, the forces of Darkness could not sever it completely. Like a smell that can't quite be distinguished, or a distant memory that can't quite be grasped...

Deep Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I never bought into the fact that Spike felt regret over the near rape of Buffy. I mean he is a Vampire. They aren't supposed to feel any of this in the first place.
Som, he DIDN'T regret it, but he knew he should! He knew he'd never have Buffy without REAL feelings, and for that he needed a soul. The shadow of William was enough to push him to do it. He was tormented without love. And there was only one way to truly love again....

Methinks your non-love of the character colours you opinion....

Chrisisall

He,he well tainted some it is maybe, sure. But you know I'm still not sold on the idea of Spike wanting to have Buffy. It just doesn't add up. I just don't get where it comes from.

Oh and for the record I love the Spike character in Season Two. That's when he makes sense (to me anyways) Thereafter his role as a foil for the pratt falls is funny, but I didn't get the relationship.....

Just me I guess...

www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Their rather awkward relationship had given Spike hope that she could possibly do this [love him] and that hope again I say is contrary to vampires... Indeed it's in line with already possessing soul type qualities.

Yes, Spike was unique. Hope seeped in where it could not/would not in other vampires. He retained a nebulous, imperfect connection to his soul after all, the forces of Darkness could not sever it completely. Like a smell that can't quite be distinguished, or a distant memory that can't quite be grasped...

Deep Chrisisall

Wow! You type fast mate... Either that or you have some kinda cross atlantic wormhole link thingy onto my screen as I type!!! Yeah I think that's it. They made Spike unique I suppose with.... little explanation.

www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 11:29 AM

Truth is, without season 7, Spike would not be as liked as he is by me; the whole sacrifice thing was what made me truly care. And the sleeping (JUST sleeping) with Buffy thing...*snif*

Soppy Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 11:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Truth is, without season 7, Spike would not be as liked as he is by me; the whole sacrifice thing was what made me truly care. And the sleeping (JUST sleeping) with Buffy thing...*snif*

Soppy Chrisisall

Yes I started to like Spike more in season seven, that holding Buffy was crucial to that, but also the wonderful tie in with Principal wood and the killing of his mother....

www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:16 PM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
i think the writers kinda miscommunicated with one another here as Spike's vocal tone is uneven 'Bitch' is meant to (and does) alienate the viewer yet the narrative and arc call for sympathy - i love and hate the whole 'rape' issue thing with equal and ambivalent measure and my views change everytime i watch. mayve that was good writing after all.

This is exactly it. That dialog doesn't fit. I understand that they want to trick the viewer, but even when I know what's going on it doesn't make sense. Basically they lied to the viewer and called it a plot twist. More like rewrite. I really wish they had gone with continuity over one moment of shocking the viewer.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:27 PM

WYTCHCROFT

i'm with you on this one - and i remember reading a James Masters interview once where he said how upset he was by the whole rape thing - and how it was put together more in the editing suite than between the actors and writers.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:36 PM

Quote:
He retained a nebulous, imperfect connection to his soul after all, the forces of Darkness could not sever it completely. Like a smell that can't quite be distinguished, or a distant memory that can't quite be grasped...

Deep Chrisisall

I'll have what he's smoking

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Yes I started to like Spike more in season seven, that holding Buffy was crucial to that, but also the wonderful tie in with Principal wood and the killing of his mother....

GRRR, now you make me HAVE to watch it again starting tonight!!!!

SevennutChrisisall

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Thursday, August 9, 2007 3:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by charliethebloody:

I'll have what he's smoking

I take it you agree w/me?

Can't quite grasp Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 9, 2007 5:34 AM

few more tokes and I'm sure I would...

but I don't believe he was completely unique, he was probably the most pronounced example, but drusilla had it too, her human self was driven mad but that continued when the demon took over, the judge said of both of them "you stink of humanity, you share affection and jealousy." and the way she said "we can love quite well, if not wisely" in crush was soo full of emotion that there must be something resembling a soul there.

and angel's offspring in general were quite connected to their human lives, penn spent a hundred years working through issues to do with his religion and his family. the guy on the submarine, I can't remember his name, was different because angel had a soul when he did it, but he was caught somewhere between being human and demon the same way spike was I reckon...

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Thursday, August 9, 2007 5:52 AM