Zoe & Regular Army by Charlotte

BLUE SUN ROOM

Zoe & Regular Army

POSTED BY: CHARLOTTE
UPDATED: Friday, September 14, 2007 23:31
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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 10:20 AM

In the original script for the BDM (as well as elsewhere but I can't remember where), Zoe mentions that she, as well as her parents, was regular army. I don't think she means Alliance regular army but I'm a little confused as to what army she served in. Before the war, did each non-Alliance planet have their own army or what? Were the non-Alliance planets united in some fashion to have an army?

I'm totally ignorant about military matters and appreciate any input. Thanks!

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 10:43 AM

DAVESHAYNE

I would hazard a guess that Zoe was as you say a member of an independent planet's army before the war. After the war started there was probably some unified command structure (kinda like NATO) set up to coordinate the various armies of the independents but there is no solid evidence for this.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 12:57 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Could be she was part of some local force. I get the notion that she isn't from a core planet, but that may have been a factor of where parents were stationed and doesn't preclude her from serving in a core planet's army. Even if she was she could of resigned after the war started and joined the independents. For instance, Robert E. Lee was part of the US Army before the Civil War.

Makes me wonder about the war for unification. I know the parallel is supposed to be the US Civil War, but I can't help asking the question "How can it be a Civil War if the planets weren't united in the first place?"

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 1:13 PM

CHARLOTTE

I keep coming back to the Civil War but my military history is so sketchy and I'm too lazy to research this myself.

Could be that the outer planets may have each had their own "National Guard" type of force. When war became imminent each planet merged their forces.

One hitch with this scenario is that if regular army is limited to an individual planet and Zoe's parents were regular army and she was born vesselside (which I'm assuming to be a military vessel?) why would there be military presence in space?

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Wednesday, September 5, 2007 1:54 PM

PLATONIST

Civil War usually occurs after political secession.

In the US Civil War, the Southern States left the Federation and created a Confederation.

Which has led me to believe that at a point in time all the planets were part of the Alliance?

Which doesn't make any sense because the outer planets don't seem to have any political representation. The relationship of the Alliance controlled core planets and the less inhabitated outer planets is more of an Imperalistic political model rather a Federation or Confederation. Unwanted Alliance presence (an occupation) would lead to a Revolution (Britian and the colonies) rather than a Civil War.

And where would that leave Zoe... Alliance Army and then an Independent or Revolutionary Army?

Anyone else having trouble with this?

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Thursday, September 6, 2007 2:39 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Makes sense to me.

Charlotte makes a good point, she could have been born on a vessel.

Maybe she spent so much of her life traveling the outer planets as a child and then as a young soldier they're what she came to see as home... more than a core planet.

Kind of sad a lot of story here and we can only speculate.

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Thursday, September 6, 2007 2:53 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Charlotte:
I keep coming back to the Civil War but my military history is so sketchy and I'm too lazy to research this myself.

Could be that the outer planets may have each had their own "National Guard" type of force. When war became imminent each planet merged their forces.

One hitch with this scenario is that if regular army is limited to an individual planet and Zoe's parents were regular army and she was born vesselside (which I'm assuming to be a military vessel?) why would there be military presence in space?

I've some how gotten the notion that each Independent planet or moon had a militia type organization sort of like the National Guard or the units that came together by town or region during the Revolution. They would have had to band together to be effective fighting units and face the Alliance.

Also, Zoe could also have been born on one of the large vessels like the Dortmunder. It did have a nursery. It was mentioned in "Bushwacked".

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Saturday, September 8, 2007 7:53 AM

SPACEANJL

Serenity OVC states that the Central Planets Military Council looked to expand the Alliance onto every planet, and was promptly met by resistance, 'more than half volunteers'. Which indicates to me that some planets had a military of their own.

Maybe a better analogy would be the collapse of the Roman Empire. Certain units posted to the edge of Empire, recruiting locally and finding they have more in common with the locals that with the central command...that could work.

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:19 AM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Civil War usually occurs after political secession.

In the US Civil War, the Southern States left the Federation and created a Confederation.

Which has led me to believe that at a point in time all the planets were part of the Alliance?

Which doesn't make any sense because the outer planets don't seem to have any political representation. The relationship of the Alliance controlled core planets and the less inhabitated outer planets is more of an Imperalistic political model rather a Federation or Confederation. Unwanted Alliance presence (an occupation) would lead to a Revolution (Britian and the colonies) rather than a Civil War.

And where would that leave Zoe... Alliance Army and then an Independent or Revolutionary Army?

Anyone else having trouble with this?

well... the civil war doesn't really hold up - you're right - but it's such a deep well to actually explore that it's worth using elements of it - in the show, fics, discussions etc.

i think the American War of Independence is a useful model - though the out come was very different!

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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:34 PM

BLINDOUTLAW

well the idea of regular armies could also add to the list reasons why the alliance launched the war

some of the more developed independent colonies may of built up a professional armed forces inorder to protect their interest. Naturally they may of been a series of small scale or even all out war between the colonies (as each planet is like a country so they'd have a small army or militia). So the allaince may see these colonial wars as a threat to themselves as well as the settlers so they add it to the list to launch their war.

and the rest is history

----------------
That was when i found out my pants were on fire, and that's my Courageous story.

[url] http://www.myspace.com/blindoutlaw [/url]

- Jimmy the Blindoutlaw

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:02 PM

PLATONIST

All right, I just spoke to our resident AP Government/History teacher and he said that the term "Civil War" can be loosely applied to any political system that is fractured from within its own physical boundaries and or perceived jurisdiction of such boundaries. (And that was his Capt. Dummy explanation!)

So...militias, small planetary armies (Zoe being a member)...would organize over time and cause concern for the Alliance wanting to establish control of resources and political power, in the outer planets. Hence, a war, to unify, would eventually occur.

Ironically, he just finished "The Killer Angels", the book that the verse's Unification War is based on and he highly recommends it to those that are interested.

ummm...maybe I can convert him... and can get him to buy the CE and the Box Set... and maybe he can make a contribution to Equality Now...ummm

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:10 PM

WYTCHCROFT

thanks for the info - and yes - go CONVERT - ha ha ha

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:31 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
All right, I just spoke to our resident AP Government/History teacher and he said that the term "Civil War" can be loosely applied to any political system that is fractured from within its own physical boundaries and or perceived jurisdiction of such boundaries. ....

You see that's the part that don't make no sense. If you have a unified core planets and unattached outer planets (independents) then it's more of a war of colonization or conquest (imperlialism) than a civil war, as the independents aren't seccedeing as much as defying.

BTW make the full press for the conversion.

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Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:51 PM

BLINDOUTLAW

its a question like this that we should look to inspirational men

eg. Martine Luther King who said "All wars are civil wars since all men are brothers"

so there we go

----------------
That was when i found out my pants were on fire, and that's my Courageous story.

[url] http://www.myspace.com/blindoutlaw [/url]

- Jimmy the Blindoutlaw

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Friday, September 14, 2007 12:38 AM

PURPLEBELLY

If Zoe was a member of the regular service, why didn't she attain a rank higher than junior NCO in an ad hoc army that may have been short of professionals? Perhaps, as a former member of the Alliance forces and possibly one with blood relatives still serving in those forces, she was obstructed from advancement to higher rank. I would have liked to see the meeting of Zoe and her brother whose distinguished service in the victorious Alliance has given him a postion of power and influence.

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Friday, September 14, 2007 4:52 AM

SCHOONER

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:

You see that's the part that don't make no sense. If you have a unified core planets and unattached outer planets (independents) then it's more of a war of colonization or conquest (imperlialism) than a civil war, as the independents aren't seccedeing as much as defying.

BTW make the full press for the conversion.

Could just be a matter of perspective. After all, those settlers had to come from somewhere, and the technology and funding to terraform those worlds. Since only Sihnon and Londinium can claim to be settled from Earth-that-was, maybe the idea is that all ther planets are really de facto Alliance colonies, and thus subject to Alliance rules. The fact that the people living on thse worlds see it differently is irrevevant to the legality.

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Friday, September 14, 2007 5:04 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Good point. Maybe not irrelevant but at least "subject to discussion."

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Friday, September 14, 2007 5:48 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by schooner:
Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:

You see that's the part that don't make no sense. If you have a unified core planets and unattached outer planets (independents) then it's more of a war of colonization or conquest (imperlialism) than a civil war, as the independents aren't seccedeing as much as defying.

BTW make the full press for the conversion.

Could just be a matter of perspective. After all, those settlers had to come from somewhere, and the technology and funding to terraform those worlds. Since only Sihnon and Londinium can claim to be settled from Earth-that-was, maybe the idea is that all ther planets are really de facto Alliance colonies, and thus subject to Alliance rules. The fact that the people living on thse worlds see it differently is irrevevant to the legality.

That's why I think it's one bit of evidence that Joss took bits and pieces from history and mashed them all up together.

I like to think of Firefly as the Revolution, but with Washington et al losing and then a bit of post American Civil War Reconstruction. And that's where the story starts.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Friday, September 14, 2007 11:31 PM

JETFLAIR

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Ironically, he just finished "The Killer Angels", the book that the verse's Unification War is based on and he highly recommends it to those that are interested.

Killer Angels is excellent, and a good source of inspiration for fic-writing :)

"Love keeps her in the air...."

www.serenityverse.com/fffanfic - My fanfics
www.serenityverse.com/shop - Firefly Jewelry

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