REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Elfen Lied

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Saturday, July 9, 2011 11:45
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Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:49 PM

DREAMTROVE


Frem, thanks for the Ep. link. I'll take a gander when the real withdrawal sets in :)
Re: the other message, I lost the context. link me the thread? Then I'll get your drift.
Working on memory problems at the moment. The problem with being cured of insanity is memory loss sucks a lot worse, I'd much rather be crazy.
But I'm confident that it's reversible. Something chemical got me here, and so something chemical can get me out. It's just a neuroreceptor sensitivity issue, I'm pretty sure.


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Saturday, January 24, 2009 10:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA


This thread.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=36523#670959

As for your issues, you could take a page from me and just eat a sadistic amount of chocolate and wash it down with half a pint of amaretto.

Either it'll fix what's wrong with ya, or in about half an hour, you ain't gonna CARE anymore.


Oh, in regard to subject title, been meanin to mention this...

Lucy's so damn scary there's almost this "SAY MY NAME, BITCH!" meme going on within the anime, cause no one just says her name - they either do it with a suppressed growl, suppressed hiss, or blurt it wincingly, usually followed by a short silence to indicate bricks being shat.

I just found that amusing as hell.

Also, anime in general tends to focus on the eyes as a means to carry expression with a minimum of artwork, so there's a lot of "stock effects" - but really they do a phenomenal job on Lucy expressing herself through her eyes, cause for the most part she shows no emotion on her face unless she's pissed or really getting off torturing somebody - that hateful one-eyed stare of hers is downright bone chilling.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, January 25, 2009 4:23 AM

DREAMTROVE


Re: issues

Not a warrior, more of a chess player. My issues of concern are something that I move small rocks in the stream, alter the flow, in time, change will come. But it takes discretion and subtlety.

Re: characters

I'm delighted to here that Lucy gets such a visceral reaction. I have two characters in stories I'm working on, one of whom is the protagonist, who are on the Lucy level. The one who isn't the protagonist is an anti-hero/villain, and I say about her place in the story "Oh, she's a role model :)"

I was actually a little worried that the character concepts were taken, but I think it's safe. I enjoyed Lucy a lot, and the show. I thought it was terrific. Since my greatest enemy is the borg cube, be it communism or our public schools, anything that irradicates individualism and variety, I take a special pleasure in over the top culture, it's my opium. Also, I have fond memories of Japan. It was curious to see that the Japanese cultural overdose was the director's decision. But well played.

Same reason I love Nightwish. It's pretty unadulterated Finnish nationalism, sometimes subtly covered in other imagery. It's also good music. But just having someone somewhere else do the Britney Spears, that's the disease. I actually this Britney is okay, musically, she has a good voice, and makes a decent Avril Lavigne cover band But it's the Walmart of music. One of the reasons I love Prague. Nothing has changed in centuries. I can go to a bar which has been open for 1000 years, so long that you now have to go down three flights of stairs to get to the front door. I fear one day it'll just be Starbucks on the corner. Actually, I have been in a few years, Starbucks is undoubtedly there already.

Globalism is just pointless distruction of difference to make the world a less interesting place. I mean, we might as well build a giant concrete cube for the 6 billion humans if that's what we're going to do.

But, back on topic. My greatest fear is that my edgy characters will be too tame, not that they will alienate the audience. There's been such a trend towards vicious anti-heroes that if your not careful, the edge can pass you by. (Not in hollywood. Captain cardboard is sure to save the damsel in distress and it won't even get him laid.)

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Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Re: issues, I split it.

Professionally, I am very much a puppeteer and chessmaster.

But personally ?
Head-first screaming all the way glory-charge Einherjar.

A useful dichotomy, and even more so for encouraging folk to keep things on a professional level.

EDIT: And if you're looking for Dark&Edgy, you don't get more so than Lusiphur Malache of Poison Elves - alas that there'll be no more cause the author capped it, and good *LUCK* finding a copy now...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_Elves
I love the way the hostage scene with his girlfriend, during a fight that was about to see her pitched bodily out the window by Luse anyway, ends...

Dwarf(total shock): "Ye Gods! Tis a madman I've hunted!!"
Luse(deadpan): "Yeah, and a real repressed one too."
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM.

Even funnier, tho you'd have to read it to know why.
Luse:(victory pose)"AYOOAH!!! I'm going to Mandratha and getting a tattoo!"

-F

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Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:21 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:
Re: issues, I split it.


Me too, but differently.

Quote:
Professionally, I am very much a puppeteer and chessmaster.


Good choice

Quote:
But personally ?
Head-first screaming all the way glory-charge Einherjar.


Ah, leave the valkyries to pick up the pieces.
Externally I'm a wallflower. No one here but us chickens, don't worry about me, and my tomatoes.

Quote:
A useful dichotomy, and even more so for encouraging folk to keep things on a professional level.


Yeah, I'm having trouble with the latter here.

Quote:
EDIT: And if you're looking for Dark&Edgy, you don't get more so than Lusiphur Malache of Poison Elves - alas that there'll be no more cause the author capped it, and good *LUCK* finding a copy now...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_Elves


Thanks. I'll have to look

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Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:24 PM

DREAMTROVE


I watched 10.5. Interesting. Different animator I think. I wondered how she got caught, I thought it was going to be damn near impossible. Nana has a change of heart I see.

I like this Lucy girl.

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Sunday, January 25, 2009 4:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Well, I just finished the Manga, start to finish.

And then bawled like a kitten trapped under the sink.

Yanno, in the end they really were not any different than anyone else - it's HOW YOU TREAT THEM that defined how they turn out.

Lucy did go wild for a while, but once Nyu had come out and taken over - Lucy was for all accounts dead and buried, IF folks had had the damn decency and good sense to leave her the hell alone.

We had this same kinda discussion a while back over Phoenix, as represented in that really awful X-men flick, if you *did not provoke, threaten or attack her*, she was absolutely no threat to you - if she was the monster others were claiming, then she would have slaughted Magnetos followers instead of just bobbing there peacefully like she did.

Lucy was the same, once she had retreated behind Nyu, she wasn't a threat to anyone, but if threatened or provoked, serious destruction was gonna result - the solution to that is NOT TO FREAKIN DO IT.

See, that's the same issue I got with folks who don't care for the idea of me packing heat, and a damn serious form of it for home defense - if you don't crash my door and try to harm me, that weapon might as well not exist so far as anyone else is concerned!

And so too with Lucy - just because she can defend herself, and will take it to an extreme when she does, she must be destroyed ?
Why ?
Cause someone who cannot be forced to do your bidding is such a damn threat when all THEY wanna do is live happily ever after and no one seems bent on letting that happen ?

On the flipside, look at Nana - who despite the experimentation was in fact treated kindly, especially by Kurama, who really did care quite deeply for her, not as a surrogate for Mariko, but as a second child whether biological or not.
Handing over his tie because she wanted it was imho a very touching moment.

And Nana herself, because of being treated decently, is pretty well adjusted for who and what she is, in fact more humane than many of the human characters, and certainly more sympathetic.

In the end, it's just like human children, you do unto them, regardless of how you rationalise, justify, or hide it behind so-called noble intentions, as soon as they're capable, they *WILL* do unto you, or themselves, or some combination of the two.

And then there's the rare case of those who decide to take it out on the society which created them, or in Lucy's case, the species.

That right there is the ultimate root of so many social ills it's almost indescribable, we create our own "Lucys" every day in the public school system and the social, emotional, pyschological battery of a society so far removed from natural human instincts that the mixed messages between what is socially "good" (betrayal, avarice, sadism, supression of emotion and normal human desires) and what is human instinct (cooperation, friendship, sharing) causes all manner of aberrant reaction in the children under it's seige and rather than admit or accept this we throw pyschological labels on it and then try to medicate it, or in extremis... the camps.

Of course, Lucy being a Diclonius and having powers of self defense and retaliation far, FAR in excess of human children, a different set of entirely predictable results came to be, but it's really the same dynamic in the end, isn't it ?

Sure, she had a biological instinct to harm humans, but so did Nana - what caused Lucy to give into it was the conduct of other humans toward her, most of whom I didn't really have much sympathy for.

Just imagine if human children could defend themselves from our meddling and most especially rammin such a twisted set of "values" down their throats...

It's not really a lot to ask to try to treat other people decently, and not that much more to even when it "breaks the rules" of our so-called society - we just need to alter the priority of our humanity over that society, outgrow it and cast it into the scrapheap where it properly belongs.

The best way to dealing with a "Lucy" is not to create one in the first place, or barring that, treat them with respect and kindness - because threats and force might work in the short run, but the price of their use longterm is pretty dire.

And you can see the potential in the eyes of every child of every race, in every country today - it really does come down to us what we wanna write on that slate, Lucy, or Nana ?

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Just an afterthought...

Four kids tormenting one kid + one kid is a Diclonius = Four dead kids.

Four kids tormenting one kid + one kid got his hands on a gun = Four dead kids.

See any difference between those equations ?

I sure as hell don't.

-Frem

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Monday, January 26, 2009 4:44 AM

DREAMTROVE


This deserves a longer response than the one I just wrote to the comments on Pakistan, but if you have the time, check out that rant, because there's a lot of information that a lot of people on the board seem not to know.

To cross the two, and not just in terms of children, reread what you just wrote, substituting "Islam" for "Lucy." Interesting, no?

The real reason this is going to be short is that there's nothing there for me to disagree with, but a few comments.

Man with a gun isn't a threat until threatened. Man on meth with a gun is a threat because his own random delusions are perceived as a threat by him, he might attack anyone. A story in Canada: two guys went camping, long term friends, and did some meth. Then one guy picked up a chainsaw, and cut off the others limbs. No idea why. Even though left for dead, the dismembered guy survived. This is the story of the man who arrived at the US border with a bloody chainsaw, and they let him in. He then went to find a place to stay, and there was an old couple sleeping up stairs, so he went up and decapitated them, and then went to sleep.

And was caught, and so now we have the stories of him and his former friend, and still no reason for the attack. This is why I think drugs and weapons are dangerous. One, by itself, wouldn't be.

Lucy is different in that she acts out of logic, a logic which evolves. Initially it's vengeance, then it evolves to suicide bomber, and then it evolves to specific attacks on actual threats. Even Nana, Lucy won't attack her until Nana decides to torture and possibly dismember Lucy. Now she does that to please Papa.

But I have to say as an ending, from a writer's perspective, I love that at the end of the anime, it is not Nyu who comes to the door, it's Lucy. The fact that you can tell that with no more than a shadow on a screen is a credit to the director.

The interlude episode was interesting in Nana's attempt to betray Lucy and her guilt in doing so.

As for the guns, I see a lot of blood in this situation. Remember that Lucy killed a lot more people. Also, in this case, Lucy was alone in having the power. It could have belonged to everyone, and then it might have been one of the other kids. Statistics show that the kid shoots kids is not self defense. Usually it's error or failure to understand, but sometimes it's a bully.

I want to include Winsor McCay's "Envy" here, but google images has taken to sucking, except for porn.

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Monday, January 26, 2009 12:58 PM

DREAMTROVE


FREM

(everyone else, serious SPOILERs, I'm just not going to invisitext it for the sake of the audience that has already seen it, but if you haven't, just skip this post.)

Back to what we were saying earlier, do you see the beauty of the story arc where Lucy comes into balance with herself, and makes the appearance of Lucy at the door a perfect ending to the story?

Frankly, I would have been disappointed with the complete subversion of Lucy to Nyu. I thought the anime was perfect. Disturbing at times, but perfect, as a story arc. I gnawed whether or not the inclusion of 10.5. It's not as fully realized as the rest of the story, but it does help explain two nagging questions: 1. How in the world was she ever captured? and 2. Why does Nana ever consent to accept her, or, essentially, forgive her? The random retcon here is slightly contrived, but does fill it in. I'm actually okay missing these points. I remember when I hit ep. 11 that it jarred. I could also tell that there was a nonsensical sequence, which could only be the result of compressed text and speeding up.

But as I said, parasols and sakura, and a shadow on a shoji screen, is a perfect ending. But rewind this post to its beginning, I'm serious to know your take on this character arc.

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Monday, January 26, 2009 5:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA


As to who was at the door ?

Kaede.

See, Lucy isn't who she is anymore than Nyu is.

The shattering effect of all the events from the puppy incident to the train incident all in so short a time blew her mind into splinters of itself, each one a mere facet of herself rather than a complete whole - Lucy is essentially a negative personality, cynical, hating, bitter and sadistic, Nyu is positive, and the voice is her inner instincts.

And when that fracture came, Lucy got most of the existing memories and experiences while Nyu wound up prettymuch a blank slate.

There's a technique in treating MPD called Fusion where faceted personalities reach toward each other in common cause and over time gel into a single entity - this actually begins to happen in the Manga as Nyu starts to become a fully formed persona of her own and you can see very subtle manifestations of Lucy in her calm or waiting state present as well.

In the Anime, Nyu is simply a shell, who came into being only because of the desperate disassociation and retreat of Lucy into her own mind as recent trauma and the confusion of a serious concussion merged with her wish to not exist, and whether it's shown to the viewer or not - it's quite obvious to someone who deals with such stuff that Lucy has access to Nyu's thoughts and memories, but not vice-versa.

While in the Manga, the fushion takes place over a substantial bit of time, in the Anime the fusion takes place prettymuch at the moment Kouta forgives her.

Of course after that she faces the strike team and fakes her own demise to keep them away from Kouta, and only when she is sure they're convinced they got her does she return, as Kaede.

The clue that said fusion happened is the clock, Nyu wanted to fix it, and Lucy knew how, only both of them working in tandem, or the fully integrated persona of Kaede could have done it, cause Lucy would not have cared about something so stupid, and Nyu would never have the depth and breadth of knowledge required.

So yes, where the Anime ends is a good point to do it, I just wish that it were a bit less ambiguous for the selfish reasons of preferring happy endings.

-Frem
(One reason I HATED that Final Fantasy:Spirits Within movie was the ambiguity of the ending cause a realistic view of the events afterwords leaves the whole story dark, bitter, and completely pointless.)

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Monday, January 26, 2009 5:43 PM

DREAMTROVE


I'm a fan of tragedy.

Lucy is a complete person to begin with, and her inner diclonius voice comes in and completely takes over, at times. But the return to balance, whether this is a new entity in the manga, or a balanced Lucy in the anime, the result is the same, a transformation of character.

Character transformation is part of the essence of fiction, something that most television lacks, the concept of character arc. It's not necessary that each be a personality with a name, which is undoubtedly why the anime dispensed with the third. Nyu becomes the shell to prevent Lucy from dealing with the world, just as letting her diclonius self take over serves the same purpose. What she becomes is fascinating.

I can see this is two different stories or tellings of the same story, like "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" and Bladerunner.

I love complex characters, and for me, the replacement of one persona with another is not that interesting by itself. The complex fusion is interesting, but I'm not sure about the need for a third identity. Nyu is a shell, at least in the anime. I'd like to read the manga, where did you find it? I found someone panning the pages on youtube, but I didn't have the patience for it.

I'd say the anime figure at the door is Lucy, but that it is the same thing, not a fusion of two characters, but a balanced Lucy, who has gotten what she does not get, correct me if I'm wrong, in the manga, which is forgiveness.

The process is slow in the anime as well, but it's not the same process. Essentially, I view the anime character as one character, with different influences and faces. As the diclonius in her starts to mature, we see her with the hands on the ceiling, and then it manifests her rage. Later, we see it talk to her, take care of her, that's a shell in its own way. Wall off the world. Nyu is the shell that protects her from herself. But we see gradually Lucy re-emerge. Now, she's not in an environment filled with hate, and she has to adjust. That's a different story than one in which her personality is split in two, a dark and a light side, which later merge. I gather that's the manga version you're describing.

The clock thing is an interesting one. I makes sense in that merged character, or only if Lucy wants to help. It doesn't bother me if there are inconsistancies in the motivations of the criminally insane. Either one works. She comes full circle as a character.

I'm not a fan of the supernatural, in general, and I like the personal development. Well, I am and I am not a fan of it. I like the supernatural for its capacity to explain the natural and the possible. I don't like the wander off into an afterlife for its own sake without a purpose, like my aversion to good and evil, the new agey stuff. I'm trying to think of the words for how I like my fantasy. It has to comment on something. The way the ring comments on power, thirst for power.

I'll have to read the manga. It's a strong story. I'm bound to take it as two stories. I think that to enjoy most fiction it's best, especially when the author is involved in both.

BTW, I thought there was no ambiguity to the ending. I read that in the wikipedia entry, and disagreed. I think this is a cultural difference. Phillip K. Dick loves an ambiguous ending, and most of the movie versions keep that. But this is cut and dried. A returned balanced Lucy/Kaeda whatever you want to call her has returned home. I don't think that this in the anime is intended as a balanced character like Nana, but a morally ambiguous, complex, but stable creature, not about to kill everyone.

The ambiguity we perceive is that we are used to having our endings spelled out for us. In a lot of cultures, the story ends when it is obvious where the story was going. This anime was far more the quintessential Japanese film than your average anime, which is what I meant by all parasols and sakura. The forshadowing that this is how it is going to be is right there in the opening.

To much of the non-western story telling world there is no need to tell the story of what you know is going to happen. We don't need to see Lucy come in and have rice, in fact, it would paint probably too rosey a picture. It's far creepier as it is.

I loved it so much I'm always afraid of anything that will change a perfect story, but if you have links to the manga, I'll check it out.

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Monday, January 26, 2009 8:27 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Contrary to the opinions of some folk, I didn't think the Manga carried a different story so much as more depth and complexity - it was well worth the reading, but if I was gonna shell out the dosh to put one on the shelf, I'd say go with the Anime.

Btw, I will add for just a snicker since it's not at all spoilerish, that Lucy pulls the "Oh yeah?" trick with a swiped submachinegun more than once, to my amusement.

The funny thing is that I have a pretty strong aversion to fanservice in general, and especially pushing certain envelopes cause of the stuff I deal with - if the story wasn't as strong and compelling as it is, that Manga/Anime would have been plowed into the wall in disgust just as fast as Gunslinger Girl Vol 6.

GSG was ok as a Manga, Pure art in the Anime (season 1) - and avoided going the route of cheap fanservice and catering to certain tastes, something so damn rare in these things that it was a relief to see a story which didn't depend on that crap to sell it.

And then two things happened - First they came out with Il Teatrino, and the beautiful, glorious artwork of the first Anime was suddenly worse than bad saturday morning cartoons, sorry, a shaken stillframe with a voiceover is not animation, it's a slideshow, Grrr...

And the animation quality was just downright hideous, topped off with replacing the absolutely fan-freakin-tastic soundtrack of the original with crappy J-pop idol trash.

But the worst, gravest sin that Yu Aida committed to his fanbase (which more or less destroyed it) was suddenly shifting gears from a serious complex story about what makes people human, to downright blatant fanservice and intentional catering to interests unspeakable, at the expense of every single thing that made it worthwhile in the first place.

Even Tv Tropes has an admission of that little problem on their own pages.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWesley
"Petra from Gunslinger Girl, who is an older version of the original cyborg-girls, "defines" this trope; the creator has openly admitted that she's his favorite, despite being a new addition and taking the storyline in an entirely new direction, as well as yoinking it away (at points) from the former focus character, Henrietta. Despite the creator's fanboying over Petra, the fandom at large hates her passionately.

* It also doesn't help that even more Petra-like characters are being introduced in the manga, fundamentally diverting the attention from the much younger first girls, since the plot's poignancy stems largely from the fact the girls' age didn't match their occupation as assassins. It gets even worse when Petra actually appears to start a sexual relationship with her handler, which breaks the "fratello"-dynamics on a basic level."

But taken in and of itself, the first season Anime is downright art, the Manga tells the story, but the Anime lives it, drives it into your heart and soul quite wrenchingly.

The reason for that little rant there is that Elfen Lied manages to slip in quite a bit of needless fanservice here and there, which would have sent it across the room in disgust very quickly were it not for the quality of the story causing me to forgive it - and I happen to be about as forgiving as Lucy, as a general rule, when it comes to such things.

It doesn't pass the Ray test, something we came up with over an offhand comment by Ray when he decided not to buy it.
"Look, if you're watching it and someone walks in on some of those scenes, you could get accused of something, yanno ?"
Elfen Lied (Anime) most *definately* doesn't pass the Ray test, and GSG (Anime) does.

So for me to have bothered to both watch it entire and read it through completely is making a heck of a statement about it's quality.

That said, you should check out GSG too, but don't bother with the Manga at all, get a hold of the first season anime and watch that instead.
Strangely enough, GSG is set in Italy, and also has that cultural element, which actually impacts the story in several episodes.

And Elsa, dear heavens Elsa - if you don't bawl you ain't human...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:09 AM

DREAMTROVE


Fanservice

I needed to google.

Interesting. I say bring it on

But more I say that the sex and the violence are what the audience wants, typically, that's human too. It doesn't bother me at all, especially in something like Elfen Lied where there is a need for light fluff as contrast, it fits the storyline. The difference is making such scenes a necessity rather than a break from the storyline. Hollywood is 100% guilty of the same thing: Here's the scene where Tanya takes a shower so we can see her naked, we're not going to try to make it relevant to the story. That's okay with me, if it's worth it, as eye candy, and helps if it's in the flow. I'm sure I can think of some notable exceptions.

But out of place scenes are distracting and destructive for any reason, and random titties are far from the worst offenders. Buffy the Vampire Slayer contains endless "romo" scenes for no other reason than to cater to a tweengirl viewbase. If Faith really did get caught naked and had to slay vamps, it would be in character, and guys would love watching it. (Something I've noticed years ago: very few filmmakers are ever brave enough to have a nude action scene. They'll have a totally pointless nude scene in an action movie, but that one with the girl who plays Nikita was it Innocent Blood? There are very few of those.)

Buffy's sin is that the romo scenes are long, and outside of the storyline, and break the flow. He worked this into the storyline with Angel, but still, on a second pass, there was reason to fast forward. And you could, because though the scenes fit, they contained nothing relevant to the storyline. But when it got to Riley it was so bad that I felt he was building a bad storyline just so it could include a boyfriend with lots of romance scenes.

The worst example of Romo-baiting I've seen was Matrix 2: Lets break from our action movie to have romantic scenes and a dance club for 45 minutes, while the viewer plots to kill the directors.

I don't mind the pointless lesbian bath scenes because they don't interrupt or conflict with the storyline. Also, if this turns into live action, people will want to see the actresses naked.

But if the soldiers fighting her on the bridge were busy ogling her titties, that would be disruptive to the feel of the scene.

I think that this pins down the issue. Nothing wrong with fanservice if its fitting to the scene. If it wrecks the flavor of the scene or breaks the flow of the story, it's an issue. Sarah Connor Chronicles could use a little more. There's never as much naked Summer as I want, and a little bit of Lena, that's be fine, or Shirley. They have an excellent precedent since they started out with a long naked action sequence of Arnie, in a guy movie. If it had been a chick flick, with a long naked action sequence of Arnie, that would have been fanservicing, but it was a quintessential guy flick, Okay, you're action guy is going to be nude. But TV is terrified of nudity, and has no problem with brains splattering in your salad. But the romance scenes with Riley are a distraction. They're trying to fit it into the story, but it's bending the story. It could work. But at the moment, it doesn't.

I'm gnawing on this because one of my stories has a great deal of nudity, and though it's text, it's somewhat core to the concept. I have a main character who was raised as a human, and so wears clothes, but she's close to alone in that. It helps cut the line. We forget that clothing is a human hangup of our culture, not a natural development. In another story I have naked savages, which is also immutable. Not only would it ring false if they had clothes, they have nothing to make clothes out of.

I'm not a nudist at all, but I fail to get the purpose of clothing for most of society. It doesn't seem to lessen people's sexual attraction. Maybe it's a rule created by the physically less fit so they could compete better. On a side note, I was noting a lot of african women are muslims, and don't wear clothes, let alone veils. But I digress.

I have always just called this the perv factor. Interesting to see it has a name. The fact of the matter is that perv is a misnomer, if you don't want to see, you're actually not normal. We, the fans, even the more conservative members of the board I notice, want to see slayer on slayer, and I'm not talking about fighting. Joss has a hang up about girl on girl. If you scan the web and look at what the lesbian fanbase is into, it's not so much Willow and Tara, definitely not Kennedy, it's usually Buffy and Faith. Other odd notes, because I've had a lot of bi-gfs, When there's a girl-kisses-girl scene, it's always, oh, gimme that remote, rewind. One girl walked in and just the sight of the actress on the screen made her drop her plate of food. Lesbians aren't repressed the way we are, because they are completely repressed, so they get their kicks by breaking all of the moral codes of society. Ally saw Nicole from the Nanny, and her immediate feeling was "I want sex with her right now" and it just put her in a state of shock.


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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:35 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually Nyu's bits didn't bother me so much cause like you say, they do work within the story, I mean, seriously...

The girls consciousness is just barely formed, not even capable of coherent speech yet, so what's she gonna know or care about social mores anyway ?

Curiosity and zero inhibitions on following her feelings is *going* to go there whether they show any of it or not.

It's not the idea of nudity, sex or sexual preferences that bother me so much as "hey, let's pad in a sex scene randomly for no reason but fanservice" and doing it in a fashion which either...
A- Doesn't work with the story.
B- Is so jarring for whatever reason it blows suspension of disbelief/immersion.
C- Is a deliberate and intentional pander to unspeakable interests - there's a few Anime/Manga I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole because of this, since it attempts to normalise or glorify behavior I consider inhumane.

Elfen Lied handled C pretty well, going with less is more and assigning greater overtones of horror to it than they do Lucy's bloodletting, they didn't sit there and pander, they told the story in a minimalist fashion set up to drive the horror that it really is home as proper explaination of Mayu's backstory, and it works.

Now, if they'd not cast the dark light, thrown bubbly romantic music over it and dragged those scenes out for six pages every time they got a chance, well...

All in all it's not that sex or nudity is depicted, it's how and why - I always wavered a bit on the whole Buffy/Spike thing, I mean on the one hand it was pretty blatant fanservice, but on the other it shows just how deeply broken and self-abusive they are under those cool collected facades of theirs - it was only with the whole Spike pushing it and penance thing that it dropped into "Why is this in here again" stupid territory.

Oh, and that's another pet peeve of mine, the Character Nerf - worst offender being Andromeda and what they did to Tyr, but Buffy was every bit as guilty regarding Spike, seriously, better that they staked him than neutering him and watering him down into such a pale shadow of what he was that frankly at some point of that he would have staked HIMSELF, being who he is, just to deny them the satisfaction of leashing him like that.

And the moment that leash broke or was subverted in any way, well... look what happens when Lucy gets loose, need I say more ?

And just a wee bit of Fanservice (or would that be Gunservice?) for you, since it's one of our favorite bits...


And this one, which makes me giggle, I pondered using it as an Avatar at first, just cause it's that damn cute - I have a better version of it but it's on another PC which isn't here right now.

And some pretty slick wallpapers here.
http://www.freewebs.com/animefunwallpapers6/elfenlied.htm

I think the best use of over the top fanservice had to be the girl-fight scene from Undercover Brother.
(Sorry for the awful quality, all I could find)


That's just roll out of your chair funny, it is.

Anyhows, me, I like clothes, firstly cause they got pockets, and second, because as someone who operates by mental/psychological illusion and exploitation of blind spots and weaknesses, the camoflauge that clothing provides is exceptionally useful.

EDIT: Afterthought; Firefly pulls some Mal fanservice in Trash, and executes it with absolute perfection in relation to the story, it's just damn funny.
Yo-Saf-Brig: "Speaking of naked.."
Mal: "Oh that's LOW!.."

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:59 AM

DREAMTROVE


Summer otoh opens with fan service in Firefly and Sarah Connor. But we want that :)

It's nice though, I like naked girl action sequences.

I saw undercover brother. I'm of a mixed mind whether it was a clever parody of exploitation or just exploitation, I think that's always a fine line.

On the child sex abuse, I liked the handling for a different reason. It was "I was in this awful situation so I ran away." Our society overhypes sexual abuse, and omitting my own personal history as a child, I can tell you, yes, traumatizing, but like I said, not in itself life destroying, unless you spend your life ruminating over it. The tease and taunt torture, rejection and loneliness are far more damaging (notice that you meet a lot of f^&ked up survivors of child abuse, but the graveyards are filled with suicides of victims of denegration.) The contrast of the two really stabbed at western elevation of this as the ultimate destructive force. To be very un-PC, I'd say from personal experience, the average gay man is about as f^&ked up as the average sexual abuse survivor (which is not to say that they aren't one and the same.) But the painting of horrible situation must escape, clashing with "this is what it takes to make me go crazy and kill everyone" (yes I'm purposely ignoring the species difference, that difference was selected for story reasons, and this is one of them) was, imho, beautiful, because of the way it trashed the west: Take for example, Silent Hill, the film. The torment is enough to break the main character, the janitor rape scene is gratuitous. This speaks to the western hang up on sex,and cheapens the storyline to some dimestore horror film. If you want deep psychological input into human development, you really have to go with what affects a child the most. Abusive older men are annoying. Having your best friend commit suicide on your birthday, that's traumatizing.

Back to fanservice, here's what ticked me off about Spike, who I liked as a character. I always notice this with alpha male badboy actors: "Write it into the script that I have sex with all the chicks." If you can't win the chicks with your own badboy self, don't screw the story to get them. IMHO, If I were Joss, I would've staked him myself. It was pretty obvious that this was going on, and it's like star-service more than fanservice.

Character nerf is unforgivable. Spike wasn't alone. Faith was dealt some as well. I guess I forgive Joss, but I don't forget.

The gun thing I think only would have worked once for me. It was right up there with the moment in Raiders of the lost arc. "Muahahahah! I am outside of your range.... *bang* Hey, that's just not fair."

I swear that had me ROFL

As far as your fanservice distracting, I agree, hollywood is majorly guilty. But I don't object to it if it's in the story flow, or if it's just eyecandy as we go. The perfect stealth nudity flash is the too short skirt. Guys get what they want to see, and straight girls aren't looking.

But Gunservice, yes, that was sort of my point. Outside of the "Oh, lets put these two teenage girls in a bathtub together like it was Wild Things" there's a whole set of fan-pandering. I think Hollywood is overloaded with gunservice, and carservice.

Of course, this exists for economic reasons: the most blatant pandering of all is what one editor I know calls "Trope overdose." It doesn't matter how good the story is if you throw out enough (starships, aliens, technocrap) or (spells, potions, monsters) into your story, the fans eat it up, in fact, they think it's good. He was the only one, no, check that, one of two, who was not just bowing down to JK Rowling saying "This is the greatest fantasy ever." He said "it's a well written piece based on a basically trite storyline, that bombards the reader with trope overdose. That's what makes her a billionaire."

The same could be said of George Lucas.

So, if we take this logic and apply it to anime, I think there should be mutants, flying airships and schoolgirls with superpowers, and the story should lend itself to constant fanservice without being hentai. Remember, a lot of the audience is female.

Of course, successful and art are not the same thing. For me, art is deeply revealing about nature, human or non, and full of noir, because I'm a noir junkie, and culture, because I'm a culture junkie.

I think I was a major daydreamer, and that may effect what I like, or how I react, but honestly, I was talking about this recently with a musician friend of mine: I think Nightwish is better than drugs. If I just lie back and listen, it does more f^&ked up things to my brain than cocaine or opiates.

Marijuana does nothing for me. It gives me a headache and makes me feel sick. I get that part of this is because I'm not normal. My mother was a chainsmoker, 3 packer, which effected my prenatal neurochem, a syndrome which only this last year has gotten any recognition, but I know this is way off topic, but it's made it very easy to see. (There's a longer story of how I got into researching the dangers of mj: I was actually doing it for a class, the typical student defense of legalization paper, but being the kind of student adrift that I was, I was in biophysics 273, rather than comp 101. Suffice it to say, all of the heavy science pro- articles, read between the lines and you hear "hey, dude, pass me that bong." All the anti- articles read the mice in the study vs. the control... That's a contrast to the dealer/preacher dynamic you see in regular press.)

Anyway, I digress. Drug abuse is an issue with me, I'm not against the idea, I'm against the particular substance out there, the use by children, without the understanding of what this is, and the criminal network that circulates it.

But I'm also a heavy evolution man. I would say "supplant it with something" better is the answer. BTW, I'm mentioning this last part because I would say the same to you and your mission: You can't kill rehab. Supplant it with something better. That's how evolution really works. You don't defeat imperial Japan by dropping nukes on it. If you did, we wouldn't be talking about anime.

Which handily brings me back to topic. I love it when that happens. I agree, fanservice is best when it fits. Most of my female characters are way too fucked up for playful fanservice, so if it comes to the screen, viewers are just going to have to pray for wind ;)

What do you make of the whole violence fanservice? Doesn't anime deliver a tremendous amount of violence for your viewing... err... pleasure? I mean, it is entertainment, so it should entertain.

Oh, here's another one: 5th element. I thought Milla in the white straps wasn't quite fanservice enough. If you have a solid story reason to have your female character be naked, serve it up, don't go half measures and come up with an utterly contrived reason to cover her up. What does he call them, restraint bandages, healing bandages, something like that, strategically placed. Naked girl on a ledge 100 stories up, that would be better for the adrenalin boost, just a little bit. But at the same time, there was needless annoying fan service. Ruby Rod's sexcapades do nothing for the story, in fact, they don't belong there. Hell, he doesn't belong there. He has no real purpose, he's just random guy who happens to be there. It's almost like "wait, we forgot to write in a black guy, lets see how stereotypical we can make him." It's one of the story threads out of about half a dozen that keep this from being serious sci-fi (whenever you break the laws of physics with a giant object close enough to earth to tear the crust open from gravity...) and heads dangerously towards Galaxy Quest. (which I love) But if you arrive at Galaxy Quest (a little fun poked at fanservice there, twice, one with an ew, and once with a ooh, Sigourney still has it,) then you should arrive there by trying to get there. Not by accident.

As for clothes, I studied fashion design for a couple of years. Clothes are very powerful in defining an image. Take a guy, put him in a uniform, cop, soldier, workman, or casual clothes, slovenly, hobo, or stylish, or business like, professional. You radically alter our perceptions. But it is a social construct. I often wear a blanket as a cape, rather than a jacket, I find it more comfortable. 1000 years ago, I would have looked like a perfectly typical farmer doing so. OTOH, There is a guy in town who wears a pink ladies dress and hat, befitting to a person his age, but doesn't go with the beard. I think this is in your face. I don't need someone else's lifestyle in my face. It's like whozit with the bagel, I don't not talk to him, but I will never take him seriously. He's trying to be in my face with his lifestyle.

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:17 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Truthfully it has indeed always rooked me that hollywood sees decapitation as less offensive than boobies - heaven knows why, it don't make sense to me and never will cause I just don't have the kind of internal issues required to comprehend it.

I mean, imma Polyamorous Anarchist for crying out loud, there's no way in hell sex between consenting adults is gonna offend me - but presenting it as hey look at this dirty awful stuff is as insulting and grating as, well, the bagel thing, yes?

And yes, the sexual abuse in and of itself isn't the destructive factor so much as the abuse of trust, of self, and the isolation and aberration inflicted at the same time, which is by itself quite enough to break someone, but in combination is devastating, especially in a society that continues to blame the victim cause it's so much easier.

And yet one bad side affect of addressing that has been causing many fathers to neglect their daughters out of fear of such accusations, which are all too often pounced upon without proper investigation by well meaning zealots, whom I despise as much as predators for that very reason.

While any parenting style or combination done well will do the job admirably, one advantage to the conventional father-mother system is presenting close range role models from both sexes - particularly a male authority figure to relate to and understand who has a familial bond and the ability to forgive, this has a very profoundly helpful impact on a young girls developing psyche and there seems to be a biological drive to seek it, which results in disaster when those seeking it do so from someone immoral or exploitive.

And demeaning that role, damaging it so badly in our society by endless mockery and scorn has had a counterproductive effect - yes, parents are not always right or do not necessarily make sensible choices themselves, and not all of them succeed or even try to, in being proper caretakers, but to demean them all is an insult to those who do.

I mention this because there's a strong father-daughter dynamic between many of the characters in Elfen Lied.

Nyu/Kouta
Mayu/Bandou
Mariko/Kurama
Nana/Kurama
And although it's VERY strange...
Lucy/Kurama *do* seem to have a father/daughter dynamic going on, although a poisonous one to say the least.

Yuka on the other hand is very much a mother-figure, even at times to Kouta, who's a bit of a slacker when it comes to housework, heh heh.

Seen from a certain angle, Kurama's intervention and vicious backhand at the end of the Lucy/Nana confrontation comes across verymuch as the action of a stern father breaking up a daughter squabble, does it not ?

Despite the fact that she hates his guts, I truly suspect that yet another of the reasons Lucy doesn't kill him is because he's the closest thing to a father she's ever known, which is kind of a damn sad comment on her life all by itself.

And Bandou, despite his endless puffed up macho bullshit, really does care for Mayu, but no way in hell is he ever gonna admit that - this is way more obvious in the Manga where he not only goes above and beyond the call, but goes absolutely berserk in her defense.

And I rolled on the scene where she totally bitched him - promises and keeping them are an important meme in both the Anime and the Manga, and having made one to her concerning her safety, he gets it thrown right in his chops by her when his temper gets the better of him, that was hi-larious.

I think that also won her quite a bit of respect-cred with him, cause not many folk can get an edge on Bandou in any fashion, and to be chumped by a kid that like amused him despite himself - he would deny it if pressed, but he did like the kid despite his desire to not like anyone, and she viewed him as a father figure because for all his bluster he never did actually harm her.

I didn't really notice all of that on the first trip through, but like Firefly, Elfen Lied has a layered story with many threads making up the whole.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:14 PM

DREAMTROVE


Did you edit this post? I wrote a very long response, and then my battery died.

This one is going to have to be much shorter alas.

Quote:
Truthfully it has indeed always rooked me that hollywood sees decapitation as less offensive than boobies - heaven knows why


Actually, I know why, this is a whole rant, and one of those ones that's not said because people aren't ready to hear it.

Quote:
sexual abuse in and of itself isn't the destructive factor so much as the abuse of trust, of self, and the isolation and aberration


Also rumination, was my point. The more we elevate it, as the ultimate evil, the more we encourage rumination. I wrote a long story about a guy I know who internally blames himself for his brother's death. He can't get through it because he fabricates the past, to absolve himself. The truth is that he didn't kill his brother, but he's not as innocent as his fantasy makes him.

Reality: He went to see his brother, and brought a bunch of hard drugs, and the brother was having a bad trip. The guy in question had a doctor's appointment to keep, he did so, and when he got back, his brother was dead, apparent suicide.

But when his version of events gets close to that reality, he gets depressed, rejects everything, and pulls into a shell, and then starts all over. This has been going on for 15 years.

This sort of thing can happen on any trauma. The elevation of sexual abuse is tied to what I'm not talking about with our society's connection that sex is evil, and where that comes from. It has nothing to do with age or consent, since someone never consents to being stabbed, or shot, and age doesn't seem to matter there to this society, and that might leave you alive with a scar on your face you have to live with... but the elevation of sex crimes is like the elevation of terrorism. It doesn't help the problem, it makes it worse.

I'm omitting a personal story here, ah, you should get an anonymous email account. Or IM.


Quote:
causing many fathers to neglect their daughters out of fear of such accusations


I used to teach. I quit when a retarded (literally) male student, much older than myself, made an accusation that I had hit him, I hadn't even had contact with him, and if I had, he coulda pounded me. I later learned that he was used to 100% attention, and being in a class was new for him, and I wasn't giving that 100% attention, he decided I was therefore bad, and had to go, and the only thing he knew in the system that would get rid of me was some form of battery. (Bad touch hadn't surfaced yet as a term.)

Anyway, it got me in a world of trouble until someone who had worked with the guy before told the principle that he made things up to get his way, and then they let me off.

Meanwhile, here I was only a couple year older than my students, who were seniors, and thus all of age of consent. The girls hit on me ceaselessly. And in a rather strong way. I had to leave, because I knew that even if I never did anything, that accusation would be far worse than the other.

But you're right about neglect. There was one girl who was absolutely gorgeous, 18, and needed extra help because she was failing, and wanted to graduate. She was one who had hit on me before, and was asking to be tutored. (Don't stand...) I had to turn even that down, because I knew how it would look, and the sad part was she actually did need the help, and there wasn't a female science teacher to teach her what she needed to know.

Quote:
one advantage to the conventional father-mother system is presenting close range role models from both sexes - particularly a male authority figure to relate to and understand who has a familial bond and the ability to forgive, this has a very profoundly helpful impact on a young girls developing psyche and there seems to be a biological drive to seek it, which results in disaster when those seeking it do so from someone immoral or exploitive.


Or is that judgmental? Fear of sex redux. Maybe they need it. My own paranoia has led me to reject the effections of teenage girls, and I can tell you, every time, without fail, they have then moved to someone older than myself. I think back about it, and certainly in some cases, the guy they ended up with was a disaster, but yes, they seek it. One guy was a decent guy, the girl was age x, I was 2x and he was 3x, and he was still a decent guy, but she left him for Mr. 4x. Maybe not 4x, but >3x. I'm not naming numbers here, but this was not a child. Still, the absent father or the defective father can cause that need.

My personal experience, the nuclear family is a disaster. I can only think of one exception. It's a very solid exception, but I've known a lot of people. Oh, and that exception also breaks the above rule, the couple because a couple when the guy was over 40, and the girl a teenager. They got drunk at a bar and hooked up. They are still the best parents I've ever met, and the only parents I would say that made a solid stable nuclear household.

I could tell some funny stories about the father and his extremely attractive teenage daughter whom he did not abuse.

My life experience is full of stuff that throws our social stereotypes on their heads.

My worst abuse story is my aunt and her mother, that one was long and I'm not up to typing it over, but it was largely psychological, and so damaging that it visits the great grandchild, of which there is only one. This is a tree of hell in the reverberating effects on the daughter (my aunt) and then on her children, not all of whom survived, and the absence of their children because of the fear left in the surviving children, and one very late very complicated pregnancy, esp. considering they all had anorexia, all because of my grandmother's abuse, which was food related, and created a fear of food, thus a constant lack of food, and energy, etc.

This challenges to top the nightmare list, and I know a guy whose father killed his mother and then he was kept locked in a room for 10 years, as a slave, and a sinner, and beaten.

Our social cliches are not always on par with what does and doesn't work, and what does or doesn't do damage. But I guess you know a lot more about that than I do.

Quote:
parents are not always right


IMHO, parents are disasters. just on balance. Not always. Admittedly, it's not a job which comes with training.

Quote:
Lucy/Kurama


I think that "I will not kill you" is a high compliment coming from Lucy.

Quote:
Yuka on the other hand is very much a mother-figure, even at times to Kouta


More than just that. The house would not hold together without her. Kouta is in way over his head. His league of psychotic girlfriends are in constant need of direction and retrieval.

Quote:
Seen from a certain angle, Kurama's intervention and vicious backhand at the end of the Lucy/Nana confrontation comes across verymuch as the action of a stern father breaking up a daughter squabble, does it not ?


Trying to recall...

Quote:
Despite the fact that she hates his guts, I truly suspect that yet another of the reasons Lucy doesn't kill him is because he's the closest thing to a father she's ever known, which is kind of a damn sad comment on her life all by itself.


Quote:
And Bandou, despite his endless puffed up macho bullshit, really does care for Mayu, but no way in hell is he ever gonna admit that - this is way more obvious in the Manga where he not only goes above and beyond the call, but goes absolutely berserk in her defense.


Oh, that was the other awesome moment in the anime! When Mayu holds up the note, and says "I need help."

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Elfen_Lied
my personal favorite is verse six.

Quote:
And I rolled on the scene where she totally bitched him - promises and keeping them are an important meme in both the Anime and the Manga, and having made one to her concerning her safety, he gets it thrown right in his chops by her when his temper gets the better of him, that was hi-larious.


That was the scene. Those were two awesome scenes, that and the gun one. I guess that makes him an interesting character. He's the perfect straightman for this story.

Quote:
I didn't really notice all of that on the first trip through, but like Firefly, Elfen Lied has a layered story with many threads making up the whole.


Any good story does.

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:56 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Reputation helps a lot, in defense against those kind of accusations.

I have something of an edge there due in great part to being trusted in that respect even by folk who despise me - like I said, I do occasionally visit various cons, and some of them have a fine placed against the room number for unattended or improperly supervised kids, ok ?

So if I happen to be present all of the little mungers have standing orders to go find me if their folks are incapacitated/drunk/unavailable/etc.

This is especially amusing given that my primary outfit for these things is either grim reaper or nazgul, and by the end of the Con I've got a damn pied piper train of catgirls, faeries and thanks to our recent Anime meme (Magical Meow Meow Taruto, which they browbeat ME into watching too) now even a pair of catboys.

And yes, in between mugging me for candy, since they know I have tons given that driving a cab and now walking rounds tends to give ya cottonmouth and I suck on candy to avoid it, so I've always got loads of candy in my pockets and they know it, yargh...

But in between candy mugging, I do get the treatment, some of em are playing, some of em might mean it, but the best defense is pretending to not notice or trying to bore them to death - not that they'll take offense since I treat them as people and never talk down to them, but I can be sharp about age-appropriate conduct.
(ESPECIALLY when there are unattended wine coolers around, I have VERY quick hands thankfully.)

One thing I know for sure is that kids are way smarter in many ways that adults take them for, and tend to memorise socially-acceptable challenge-response crap to stonewall adults cause they see no point to talking about how they really feel since they fear they'll just be ignored or sent to some headshrinker instead of being treated like a fellow person.

As for broken adults - I think it's prolly pretty obvious by now a lot of my people are female, many of whom have a fanatic loyalty that borders on psychotic, and dealing with this and their "issues" is something I have tons of empirical experience with, the cling factor is best dealt with by providing a stable, reliable, structured environment with a minumum of changes or disruptions, which being also helpful with the all too common PTSD also found among these folk, makes it a two-for-one treatment special.

But nothing replaces empathy and understanding, as I have mentioned before, one of my prime aggressive tactics is to get in someones head psychologically and start "breaking stuff" - it should follow that possessing that ability, the reverse is also true, in fact I learned the latter before the former by sheer necessity because there just wasn't any other way to treat some of these folk, their abuse was inflicted by damn pysch/medical/school establishment in the first place, and they will NOT under any circumstances seek treatment from the very folk who victimised them, so it didn't leave any other option but teaching them to work it through.

We have a few other folk who can do that now, but currently they're all in Texas where they are most needed.

Anyhow, while most fathers botch it, they have a unique ability to impart affection and approval in a manner that isn't sexual, and by that action prove that one does not necessarily require the other - many of the kids or broken adults I deal with have serious problems with that concept for one reason or another.

And I don't think the nuclear family is a disaster per se, it's just that we as a society have destroyed the concept of family by placing it's value below other things - I mean, dumping grandma in a crummy home somewhere because you can't spare the time away from work if you mean to properly sabotage someone else in the office cause they're gonna cut three positions and you need to take someone else out before they get you ?

Madness! - which, btw, also leads to poor morale, and everyone trying so hard to stick a knife in someone elses back and nothing gets DONE, which is the current state of the auto industry and it's suppliers around here, for a fact.

I think we need to bring back the extended family clan structure, cause it seems integral to our human development, and one of it's best advantages is that in the case of poor, neglectful or abusive parenting, there's other family-bonded to step in and intervene, or offer a helping hand in support if needed, a kind of safety net other than the Governments invasive, abusive and heavy handed policies.

That's actually how we run things from an organisational standpoint, because of the bonds created under such stress and the treatment of such broken people in the first place, why not just consider it an extended family - and a damn sure more wholesome one than the cults which also use that methodology.

We might not use those terms, but in essence it's a combination of extended family clan, meritocracy and swarm theory in practice.

You should also remember that I happen to be a social feral, that plays a part too - folks who say you cannot miss what you never had have no fekkin clue what they're talking about.

-Frem
EDIT:
Quote:
league of psychotic girlfriends

Oh dammit, one of the crew saw that and now it's office title of the week, thanks a BUNCH, jerk!
ROFLMAO

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Admittedly, it's not a job which comes with training.

Afterthought.

It damned well ought to!

And we should provide for it, given that it's a hell of a lot cheaper in time, effort and resources than the psych/medial treatment route or law enforcement/court/prison routes used to clean up the mess afterwords, which are in essence REactive instead of PROactive by preventing the cursed disaster in the first place.

But then, what do I know, I only been doin this like twenty years....
*snort*

-F

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:39 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh yes, another thought kinda related to Character nerfing and pitching kittens out the door...

One thing that seriously pisses me off is how parents deliberately neglect to teach, or even work against a child learning certain needful survival skills in order to keep them under their dominion longer, and THEN, when the kid hits eighteen, pitch them out the door unprepared and doom them to fail.

That's a form of neglect and abuse I see all too often - once a child goes out that door at eighteen, if they do not know...
A - How to drive, and possess a license.
B - Basic vehicle maintainence.
C - How to cook, at least at a subsistence level.
D - How to budget and manage money.
E - How to aquire and keep employment.
F - How to properly defend themselves.
G - Basic first aid.
H - Basic household operation and maintainence.
At the MINIMUM...

Then you've committed an act of profound negligence as a parent and should have your ass kicked for it.

I got lucky, not only did I bag up home ec in school when it was severely unpopular for a guy to take it, but also learned the "boy" and "girl" skillsets from my mother, who to her credit spent most of the rare and precious time she had with us trying to impart them - but mister macho half-bro wasn't interested in 'wimmins work' (and boy oh boy to my everlasting delight did he PAY for that later...) and Sis had boys on the brain to the exclusion of all else, so the only one with the patience to sit, listen and learn was me.

Still didn't cover stuff she didn't know, like how to clear a clogged drain or locate and replace fuses, but she did impart what she knew.

Me and said Sister are prolly gonna have an issue soon cause she's a bit upset at me for teaching her eldest to drive and paying for additional instruction and licensing fees - cause this caused her to exit stage left and set up her own life immediately upon reaching eighteen....

And she has forbidden the younger niece to drive or even learn to cause she's the ONLY one in the place that knows any damn thing about housework, cleaning or cooking...

And much as I'd prefer not to interfere, that's an ultimatim that I will surely defy because it is neglectful and exploitive.

We oughta bring back rite-of-passage rituals involving skill tests and modernize them, that'd help this little problem somewhat.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:09 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Frem:

On that list of "survival skills", I'd add:

I. Where to look and how to ask for help for the stuff you don't know.
J. How to learn basic problem-solving. Breaking problems down to their component parts, as it were, so you can see WHAT the problem actually IS.

The best lesson I ever got in (J) was when a friend was helping me work on my car. My car wouldn't start, and I couldn't figure out why. I'd been maintaining my own vehicles (cars and motorcycles) since the age of 12, but just basic maintenance stuff. Whatever was wrong with this one had me flummoxed. It would crank all day, but just wouldn't fire.

So my buddy comes over, and explains it to me in such a simplistic way that it's never left me. "Here's the deal," he said. "The engine needs three things to run: spark, fuel, and air." (It's more complex than that in reality, but those are the three most basic systems in a nutshell, and I got the gist of what he was saying. "Start with air - is the carb blocked? Is the air intake clogged? No? Then look at fuel - when you give it gas, is there gas going into the carb? Yes? Then it's spark." Bingo.

It didn't tell me WHAT the problem was, exactly, but it told me where to start. Turned out that the coil wire was bad. We figured that out by pulling it off and using one from his car - and mine started right up!

I'd have spent hours, maybe days, trying to figure out the problem, but what I got instead was an invaluable lesson in HOW to narrow the problems down into manageable chunks. No price can be put on that kind of teaching - and I later passed it on to my dad, who taught me everything I'd learned about car repair up 'til that time. The student becomes the master, as it were... :)

BTW: I'm going to have to check out Elfin Lied when my life settles down a bit. Thanks for the tip on that one!

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:17 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
We oughta bring back rite-of-passage rituals involving skill tests and modernize them, that'd help this little problem somewhat.


Just had to add, BRILLIANT!!

Today, you are a man - AFTER you

A. Drive to the grocery store and do the shopping, and then
B. Change the oil and filter on your car, and rotate the tires, and then
C. Cook dinner and
D. Pay the bills and balance the checkbook, once you've
E. Found a job that will allow you to do all of the above and
F. Fought off a mugger intent on taking your first paycheck and
G. Bandaged your own wounds as well as those of the mugger. His wounds should be considerably worse. Then
H. Unclog the drain, wash the clothes, and fix that damned fence, after you
I. Learn how to fix a fence or figure out who to call to fix it, and how you're going to pay them for their work, and then
J. When you've mastered all of that, figured out how best to pull it off and still have the energy and desire to go out with your friends to chase tail, you'll be A Man.

I second the Rites of Passage!




Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:33 PM

DREAMTROVE


My obsession with highschool and my friends obsession with a nuclear family speak to that. You fantasize and idealize what you didn't have. School probably sucked, but I missed it. I never tell my friend who romanticizes the family any of the horror stories. I let him go on believing, his parents were killed when he was growing up, and that worship of the idea might make him a great dad.. No reason to break it.

I agree on extended family, but not actual family. I think about my own extended family, and that would be a disaster. My dads side is all dead of course, and my mom's side is all f^&ked up because they were all abused. But there are a number of families like the one that I just mentioned that I consider "family." Alas, some of those are f^&ked up and dead now too.

But yeah "extended family clan, meritocracy and swarm theory in practice."

This is how I talk, and everyone says "cult" so I need to cloak that new social structure in something.

I remember the groupies from my runaway shuffling days. It was a time when I wished that I lived in a different culture. I'm such a straight arrow to never cross that line, but it would have been fantasy fun to do so, and they would have been very appreciative. I'm only human, and there was plenty of real life fanservice. It's a god damned tease.

Instead, they all went off to sordid lives with boyfriends and husbands, and now are single moms in trailer parks. What killed my lil operation was my nervous breakdown. There were a couple of boys, and lots of girls, and the worst wasn't the wine coolers. It was when the girls went and met people and brought them home, more often girlfriends than boyfriends, but that didn't know how to behave. I mean, even though I was in touch with the police, it was a living situation, like the one in the anime, and we had to live there. People from the outside would come in and think it was partytown. I had to forceably remove some.

Best way to deal with a potential assailant, I had this issue once, a girl brought a girl, who brought a guy, who thought rape would be a fun game to play. Well, melatonin dissolves nicely in alcohol, so while he was trying to get the moves on this girl, he asked me to get him a drink, so i did, and slipped a melatonin in. Not strictly speaking ethical, but I could tell this was a situation. Anyway, it hit him like a mack truck, and the girl that brought him, turned out to be his sister, had to drag him home. It was pretty funny. As far as alcohol went, I had it at the house, because when I didn't, they would go out looking for it, so I got a liquor cabinet with a key, and only opened it for people who were of age. I learned that lesson early. Runaways who wanted not to be located by abusive parents were not always cleverest at the below the radar concept, and if they went out on the town looking for alcohol, which a couple of them did once, and caused a scene, and then I made the policy.

I had a no drinking no drugs policy in general, esp. when there were some younger ones around. I didn't want to get into serious trouble, so some I had to send home, because though they will tell you they're 19 or something, ain't always the case. But one time there was a guy brought in by this one woman's bf (I had a couple older people who stayed for a while who weren't really runaways, but lost souls nonetheless. One guy I had to send packing because I got real uncomfortable with him in the house with the kids. He didn't do anything, but he had a temper, and something weird about him...)

Anyway, this one guy who came over to visit his gf who was staying with me brought weed, and the cop came in at that point. He pointed at the weed and said "what's this?" and I said "Marijuana" and he said "Is it yours?" and I said, "No, it's his, one of the kids brought it in." He said "that's a liability to you, you shouldn't let that happen." I said, "I know, I posted the rules, they know, but what can I do?" His response "Tell 'em to go out onto the porch and smoke it outside." And that was it. It was like the mellowest drug bust of all time.

I think the cops were painfully aware that I was the only place in town that would have a house full of teenage girls where nothing funky was going on at all. One of those girls still calls me. I get the feeling she still wants me, she's been through two husbands now, has a couple of kids.

I agree there should be a manual, but I've seen too many kids f^&ked up by parents, and known the parents, they wouldn't read the damn instruction manual. As far as the good I did, I guess I don't know what good is anymore. I cleaned them up, taught them the power of fashion and language, had them leaving there looking and talking like young professionals and not street punks, and they got decent jobs, a lot of them went to college.

There were a couple disasters. A couple of the gay boys did some petty vandalism, went to jail, one is now living on his own, the other went back to daddy. There was this one kid that a whole team of people could not get out of the home was the most tragic. This poor abused kid. He was too young to runaway, and so abused, we kept calling social services, they didn't do a damn thing, and then when they were getting close to action, the parents just moved, the kid ended up in an institution.

But mostly, I think it worked out well, one of the kids made it big, he's one of those "retired at 25" kind, but most got on the career track. Since then, I've done some thinking about that, since that was sort of my goal, I succeeded mostly, just as a single guy, but now I kind of question the goal. I have serious issues with the career track and what I now call "the hamster wheel." But learning those communications skills and how to dress, make an impression, etc., those have to come in useful.

If I'd been organized, I probably would have made some sort of clan out of it like you have. I lack those sorts of skills, something I'm trying to work on. If you have any organizational tips, please let me know, it's one of my key points of study. I have a four point plan for independence. It'll have more points in time. In the future, I'd build something different, more organized. That's why I was thinking something official. Like a school. I'm not certain about that yet. But there has to be something. I still watch these kids, I always know a lot of kids, and it's so often, bright, young kids, with the world at their feet, total disasters at 22. I want to create something to runaway to, I guess that would be my ultimate goal. More than just a holding spot where they could regroup, redirect, as much as that works, I seriously have been rethinking the merit in retooling runaways and sending them to the hamster wheel machine. Sure, it's objective "success." But I guess it's age. I look around me know and see so many adults who are trapped for life in that hamster wheel.

But you can see where we were doing something very similar as I suspected before, just from different angles. The kids I dealt with, it was the parents who were the problem, always. I know you've seen your share of that. I got that institutions were a problem, but there was a lot less of that here. If kids fell afowl it was on the street, drugs, gangs. Institutions, there's one permanent care facility about an hour away, and another two week rehab a couple hours away, and some of the kids had been to those, but not commonly. Mostly, it was just really f^&ked up family lives.

Anyway, that was a long random stream of consciousness rant.

I'm serious about the organization, communication, these are the areas I'm working on. If you have any suggestions, feel free to share. If there's stuff you don't want to post, PM it to me.

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:50 PM

DREAMTROVE


Yeah, I agree with the skill list, I would add a few myself, like the value of class: Style and communication.

y-A - How to drive, and possess a license.
n-B - Basic vehicle maintainence.
y-C - How to cook, at least at a subsistence level.
y-D - How to budget and manage money.
y-E - How to aquire and keep employment.
n-F - How to properly defend themselves.
y-G - Basic first aid.
y-H - Basic household operation and maintainence.

What I covered on your list for these kids, I gave a y for what I taught them, I wasn't really trained for the others.

In addition, I taught them the stuff I mentioned plus:

K: where to find free food and housing. Catholic charities, state agencies, churches. Churches were usually better if you were worried about being returned to a bad home situation, but a lot of the time the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. I had one runaway who had the state putting him up while they were supposed to be returning him. If they had tried, he would have made a break for it. He was the one who had been horribly abused by fundamentalist christians. At first, I couldn't get him to go into a church. Eventually, he caved, and took their charity, talked him into a karmic balance, they owed him, rather than a good/evil, but when he wouldn't take part in prayers they kicked him out. After that, he wouldn't go back.

L. I also covered basic easy herbal medicine, for treatment for simple things, and drug withdrawal.

To me, the sea out there is full of sharks, and back then, I saw the drug dealers and gangs, now I'm thinking the working world of the wage slave, the hamster wheel as I call it, is just a different, more organized gang of sharks.

Ps. For the record, self defense was almost never an issue here. It's part of my different perspective on a lot of things like 2nd amendment. You were never going to be attacked, by anyone, for a long time. There was that one incident with 15f and her bf, who she nearly killed.

Then the gangs came. Still, there was little conflict outright. The danger the gangs presented was that they recruited, and any recruit would be put on drugs, and mostly, they wanted the girls, drugs in exchange for sex, thank the powers that I didn't lose anyone to the gangs, they did try, pretty seriously, and guys they always wanted newbie guys to go commit crimes, robberies, rather than do it themselves. So, the house got robbed a couple of times, but not while anyone was home. I could tell things were sliding though. Still, even now, it's nothing like the city. The city is sliding too.

[Edit] I also support the rite of passage. In fact, I think it should replace age of majority. I knew a lot of people over 18 who had no idea what they were doing, and plenty under 18 who could have run the whole show. It should be a series of challenges, and at the end, you're an adult, you can vote, etc. But now I'm back to stage 12 again. I have to tie myself down to keep my focus on steps 1,2,3...

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Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

But yeah "extended family clan, meritocracy and swarm theory in practice."

This is how I talk, and everyone says "cult" so I need to cloak that new social structure in something.


I call 'em by something a whole lot simpler: My bank-robbing team. I got that from the same friend who taught me valuable lessons about problem-solving. He's a great friend and a horrible drunk, but a great friend first. We worked together, and one of the things he told me was to look around the shop and decide who I'd want on a bank-robbing team, and why. Certain people bring a certain skill set, and others bring nothing but baggage. You want to keep the valuable ones near you, because whatever your problems are, they're the ones who can cut through the bullshit and get you looking at things from a different perspective.

And, as Buffy, Angel, and Firefly have always tried to teach us, family is the one you make. Buffy had a dad somewhere, Angel had a lifelong lover, and the crew of Firefly probably all had family somewhere else... but it was the people they surrounded themselves with who kept them real. And in Mal's case, it really WAS his bank-robbing team!



Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:02 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I call dibs on getaway driver.

As for the made-it-good folk, that's part of what we call the golden rope program.

We find someone with heavy potential but no opportunity and send one of those who've made it good to give them the speech - and upon acceptance, they get the choice, those who've taken it have about a 90% success rate so far, and by taking it obligate themselves to the mandatory duty of pulling three more out behind them when THEY make it solid.

It's prettymuch a seperate program of it's own by now however, run by a couple of the first folk I pulled out way back when.

Good backup means a lot to someone who's already survived everything the ghetto can throw at them and remains standing tall, but has no resources to get the ball rolling.

As for the flunkies, this needs to be said, cause it's a very important part - there's a test, of a sort, once they're stable enough to walk away if they want to, we severely encourage them to do so, and very much discourage continued participation, but in some folk the desire for vengence, corrective action, or just plain monkeywrenching burns so strong it's become an undeniable compulsion and calling, and so...

Remember me saying I could put together a presentation that would leave most ordinary folk in a state of catatonic horror ?

That ain't rhetoric, if they push hard enough to be given that choice and claim it, first order of business is a 99 minute video presentation, and we LOCK that door - if you walk out of there on your own power and still willing to work with us after that, then you have that option.

Of course, not all of the folk involved like me too much, one in particular summed it up pretty good.
"The devil always gives you a choice, cause it makes you just that much more his bitch in the end."

Ironically, like I said time and time again, it's the downright bitterest, nastiest people who can face this kinda stuff day in and day out and not be traumatised by it, cause it'll eat a nice person alive.

We don't go as hands-on as you describe except in extremis however, DT - usually it involves members of the family willing to try and a full course of education and assistance in dealing with the matter at hand, and we define family quite broadly.

One thing to certainly remember is never offer threat to me or the general operation in front of the DeeVees (the fanatics) cause they'll go freakin berserk - that's why I keep them working on nice, predictable, structured stuff like organising files or backing up the systems, close enough to keep an eye on and in a controlled environment with a minimum of disruptions or surprises... eventually when they begin to feel "safe" internally, the fanaticism fades off, but the DeeVees are seriously dangerous until defused.

Useful as heck once they are though, cause they've applied themselves with such a psychotic passion they usually have a broad range of skills and no-nonsense professionalism and loyalty that would turn the alphabet soup goons green with envy.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 4:11 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:
I call dibs on getaway driver.


Quote:
As for the made-it-good folk, that's part of what we call the golden rope program.


This was interesting, useful information.

Quote:
once they're stable enough to walk away if they want to, we severely encourage them to do so


As did I, but of course, we were battling different foes. On the drug abuse and gangs, those were something that people could let themselves fall back into. The bad home was like the institution, not something to return to.

Quote:
desire for vengence


Re: bad parents, this was sometimes and issue. Usually, they just wanted avoidance. The problem with the extended family, which worked as often as not, was that when it didn't work, it was that the extended family members wouldn't see the home problem, and would call mom or dad, I'd say about half ended up with a family member, usually a grandparent.

Quote:
Remember me saying I could put together a presentation that would leave most ordinary folk in a state of catatonic horror ?

That ain't rhetoric, if they push hard enough to be given that choice and claim it, first order of business is a 99 minute video presentation, and we LOCK that door - if you walk out of there on your own power and still willing to work with us after that, then you have that option.


I was in Yugoslavia. I wasn't in the war, but I saw their videos, and heard their stories, and let me tell you, if Lucy had walked into this place where I was living, they would have bought her a drink. I am not remotely kidding on that.

Lock the door?? Isn't that counter to the principles you espouse? [/snark]

Quote:
We don't go as hands-on as you describe except in extremis however, DT - usually it involves members of the family willing to try and a full course of education and assistance in dealing with the matter at hand, and we define family quite broadly.


As I said, often the family was the problem, even extended, sometimes there was no family, and other times, the family didn't see the street danger. I have to say, some of the really abused were really together, and some of the loose cannons were guys with a perception of abuse, but really, imho, they were just really self centered.

The grey is always grey, and it's hard to sort it out at times.

There are stories I'm not about to post here, but it wasn't always smooth sailing. Another reason to have a place, some sort of structure, was we occassionally had a predator problem. There was one sex offender who would convince girls that he was leaving his wife for them, etc. He didn't come by the house, but he knew where we were, and that it was a source. I was pleased when he got gnabbed. Also, we had some what our society wouldn't dub predators, because they weren't after sex, but they were predators nonetheless: Thieves, gangsters and dealers, looking for easy prey, recruits and customers. We had this one guy called "the Doctor." He came to the house once, and opened up his "bag" was like a real doctor's bag, but his medicines, you get the drift. I chased him out, but he was always lurking.

It's one of the hazards of a situation like that. When you fight institutions, they're not snooping around waiting to catch your kids alone... Or, I could be wrong, maybe they are?

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Lock the door?? Isn't that counter to the principles you espouse?

No, they volunteer for it despite every ounce of doom and gloom we throw at em, and they know the rules.

As for the rest, well, many shades of grey, I'll countenance no threat to my people, and on that note I think this convo has gone as far as it's gonna.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:53 AM

DREAMTROVE


The snark was a snark.

Quote:
I think this convo has gone as far as it's gonna.


Agreed. It strayed from its topic, and I was finding it hard to go on without refering to specific incidents.

Outside of Anime, there is one thing I'm interested in, which is organization. I'd certainly rather not have had to deal with predators, I'm not for guns, esp. as these people were packing. Just one of many organization issues.

If you have any thoughts, let me know, as I said, if you don't want to post them, just PM me.

Thanks for the Manga.

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 6:25 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Frem,

So, I finally watched Elfen Lied yesterday. Be forewarned all, there be mighty spoilage ahead. (Striking coincidence: I was watching the series as I was writing about the Casey Anthony trial and after I wrote my last post about Ms. Anthony's behavior being so thoroughly consistent with her having been incested, I turned the anime back on just at the point when Mayu's backstory was revealed and I saw in action exactly the stuff I was explicating in my post--welcome to HK's World of Coincidence.)

Anyway, I found the final scene between Lucy and Kohta on the stairs extremely moving. His deep, bodily compassion for her, for her future victims and finally for himself that allowed him to ask for what he wanted in spite of his moral repugnance for her actions was breath taking in its shocking simplicity and healing power. Y'know, I generally see the Christ story as a pretty reprehensible bit of torture porn, but his final words up on the cross, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do" is the core of a morality that transcends all the mucked up madness of the history of the Church. And of course, it's the one piece that the Church has historically all but ignored. But I digress.

Elfen Lied expresses in that scene my own understanding of forgiveness: that it is not really about the people we forgive, but about our own profound needs, about being true to our own deepest sense of truth. It's not about letting the perpetrator off the hook, but about freeing one's self from the bondage of hate and bitterness. It's about forgiving ourselves for loving even those we think we ought to revile. Anyway, I know this doesn't square with some things you've said recently on the subject of forgiveness and if you're up for it I'd be very interested how you understand that final scene in light of your own beliefs.

Thanks for the recommendation (two years ago)!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 11:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Nah, it doesn't conflict as much as you'd think - forgiving Lucy isn't what enables her, trying to harm her is, and woe onto them who try!
I mean, it's not like she goes out of her way to hunt down and harm folk, it's more leave-me-alone taken to a really psychotic extreme, which is then used as an EXCUSE to justify harrassing her even more, a vicious cycle of stupid that really, only death or forgiveness can end.
Kouhta picks the latter, Lucy tries to pick the former.
(and in the Anime, apparently fails.)

The other thing forgiveness can bring is the ability to LET IT GO - I have really not much room to talk on that front cause I am utterly incapable of "letting it go" regarding how our society abuses us as humans, but in my defense that's cause I feel if left unchecked it has the potential to kill us all and leave this rock a barren, irradiated, poisoned wasteland.
Other things, maybe, maybe not - but what it also does is allow a person to stop bloody flogging themselves about it, hell with forgiving those who harmed you, start with forgiving YOURSELF, you know ?
That's one thing which drives me bats about folk who still maintain their grief over the loss of a loved one, complete with room exactly as it was like it's a freakin shrine, fifteen years later... not to minimize their loss, but this is self-abusive, really it is - and so to is revenge, in just that same way, I of all people damn well know this...
Which is a great part of why I've tried to alter it into a positive thing, rather than a destructive one.
Anyhow, yeah, I understand - more than words can really express, and you're better at explaining that sorta thing than I ever will be.

And yes, strange coincidences, as I recently ran across an AMV that struck a really, really profound note with me, because as I say - genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger.
What hit me like a truck about it, was it's perfect expression of JUST WHAT HAPPENS when that trigger is pulled.
You see, when that one-way leap is made, when one makes the choice to fight, instead of acceptance or submission, in a very real sense, you murder the person you were - they will no longer exist.
(I have an Aunt who's actual experience with who I was "before" causes her to consider the child she knew dead and buried, and me an unwanted stranger, for just that very reason.)
I also find the music selection eerily appropriate, but not sure if you'd understand quite why.



Right there at 1:30-2:00 encapsulates the very ESSENCE of what it is I mean to prevent, from ever happening to anyone, that murder of self which so often manifests in terrible violence, and if survived, will haunt their conscience so deeply that every further action is affected by it, driving them into spirals of misery, inflicted upon self and others...
And make no mistake, it's the latter who are terribly, terribly dangerous, Carl Panzram was probably the most self-aware one of those and almost a case study for how what we do to each other comes back on us all like a razor edged boomerang.
So, in a way, is Lucy.



When I listen to a childs heart, it is the music of human potential I wish to hear, and not the ominous ticking of all our sins against them, soon to be re-visited against us.

Also, while not really developed in the Anime due to time constraints, Mariko (Number 35) is a whole other level of tragedy, closet-kid syndrome taken to it's gravest extreme, and that one scene at her ending, the flash of what-could-have-been... and WASN'T, knocked a crack in even my black heart.

That they EVER forgive us for what we do to them, that most of them do - is one of the few things which keeps my faith in human potential and solidly in the Kropotkin-Rosseau corner as far as viewpoint on human nature.
It's that we never seem to learn better, which irritates me, although that's mostly impatience and having the short viewpoint of a mere few decades, in respect to how far we've come...
Which is also why I get seriously rabid over people wanting to turn back the clock - most of the recent fullisade of assaults on women and their personhood identify their intentions quite clearly.

Is it really so bloody hard for folk to simply treat each other humanely ?
I don't think so, considering how often we manage to do so even in a society which has every possible incentive against it.
So yeah, there's hope for us yet.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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